Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson

Subject: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson UK
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:00 PM

Some pillock :-) started a banjo thread today and becuase of that, it took me back to the Trad jazz scene in the UK early 50's.

However I was only 5 at the time. I became a big trad jazz fan.

I find it very interesting to see what the performers in the title got up to.

I found this interview with Ken Colyer about his story back in 1949. I was 4 then.

However its fascinating to see who became part of his band and the influence they had on the music scene in the 50's and even today, there are many performers who may guiltily admit to being influenced by at least one of them :-)

Here is the interview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxok6qb6M4&feature=related

This is another video that grabbed my interest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3E2dxHMINg&feature=related

I would love to trace their deveolpment and influences since the early 1950's. Maybe there are mudcatters out there who can remember this era, and can fill in such information. Anybody got some nice stories about these guys.

They certainly have been a big influence on me, music wise.

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:39 PM

Monte Sunshine was 'The Man' on clarinet for me until I discovered Johnny Dodds !

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Newport Boy
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:41 AM

At college in London early in 1956, I was at an all-night party. A guy came in about 1 am, had a drink or two and settled himself on a sofa.

He got out a clarinet and played for the next hour - mainly trad jazz standards, but some other stuff mixed in. It was a while before I found out it was Monty Sunshine.

Phil

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:11 AM

AS far as clarinet goes, I always considered Monty to be the best around at that time. Did you manage to get a chat with him Phil?

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:01 AM

No interesting stories for you (no change there!) but these artists are well represented in various audio media in my collection and I was lucky enough to see them all live in clubs or concert halls, together and in other combos over the years. I'm probably a bit older (65 this month)than the Villan but I was a bit older (about 9 or 10) when I discovered jazz via hearing Louis Armstrong on the radio, then listening to all the UK trad bands on BBC (Skiffle Club, Guitar Club, Saturday Club, Jazz Club)and Radio Luxembourg ("Live from the Marquee Club")under the blankets, and as I got older going to clubs: Opposite Lock in Gas St B'ham, 100 Club Oxford St London & recently, Jagz, Ascot...

RtS
(Old fart with a pint & hearing aid in the corner)

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:15 AM

You might try to follow up the story of why Monty Sunshine left the Barber Band and why, around the time of the break-up he appeared in Melody Maker with a black eye.... heard rumours......
Used to see The Barber Band (with lonnie Donegan) and all the greats regularly at The Cavern in Liverpool before the Beatles disease struck and wiped out good music there.
I once loaned a book on Tibet to an erstwhile friend who promptly gave it to 'Dad' (Bruce Turner) who was interested in the subject. We used to see him, John Chilton and George Melly at New Merlin's Cave in London. Melly once told us that the great thing with Alzheimers was that you met new people every day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:16 AM

The Opposite Lock

Ah the memory. When I moved up to Scotland for my job, I hired the Opposite Lock out for my leaving do. It was a great way to say goodbye to my friends and colleagues at work.

I was a member of the Jazz Club at the Roebuck in Erdington, Birmingham. Still never forget Spencer Davis, coming in and asking the organiser if he could play for nowt in the interval. The organiser (who was a friend) asked him what he played. Lonnie Donegan songs, mate - was his reply. In all honesty it wasn't very good. However a few months later he had formed the Spencer Davis group. I can't remember him ever coming back and asking to play for nowt in the interval :-)

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM

Monty's band appeared - along with several other bands - at the Middelburg Jazz Festival in Holland around, I think, '81 or '82. A whole gang of us were shooting the breeze mid-afternoon in one of the empty concert venues, and Monty was holding court with some very funny stories - none of which I can remember. He was held in great regard by the assorted company, who affectionately dubbed him Monty Moonshine. He was still playing a mean clarinet as well.

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Newport Boy
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

This was an all-night party - I'd been drinking for 6 hours by the time Monty played, and probably he had as well. If either of us spoke to the other, we wouldn't remember it next morning, let alone 50 years later!

And DAMN the Opposite Lock! About 1975, we were travelling through Birmingham on the canals, and found a nice quiet place to moor for the night close to Gas Street Basin. After we turned in, there was some very loud music for a while. When it stopped, I noticed an unusual movement in the boat. Bleary-eyed, I poked my head out, to find that we had been set adrift and were out in the middle of the canal.

Phil

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: DoneganColyerBarberSunshinePatterson
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM

Jim Carroll, re your entry above. Do you know the story? I remember it but don't ever recall a picture of Monty with a black eye in Melody Maker.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

As I understand it, it was said to be rivalry for the affection of the singer in the band.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: fisheye
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:40 PM

Perhaps some of you remember 'The Green Man' pub on Blackheath, or even the
' Shakespeare' in Whoolwich high street. I used to go there with my brother which started
my interest in photography. Unfortunately the negs and pics have long disappeared.
Otherwise my retirement funds would have been well looked after.

fisheye

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM

I put this band on last year at Faldingworth Live and they were excellent. Anybody seen them live?

Red Beans n Rice

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

No Jim,

It seems that one member of the band made a very tasteless remark to an American artist that was touring with the band which Monty strongly objected to and things got a little bit out of hand when someone else not an actual member of the band didn't quite see Monty's point of view.

Regarding seeing Barber's band with Donegan this must have been before 1957 if my memory serves me well.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:02 AM

After reading this thread I dug out the CD (UPbeat URCD 198) of The Lost [18 April]1954 RFH tapes of Ken Colyer band: Ken,Chris, Lonnie, Monty,Ron Bowden, Jim Bray with Bill Colyer on washboard for the skiffle tracks and guesting from the Lyttelton band (who played the first half) Bruce Turner* on alto (I always loved his clarinet playing, familiar to folkies from his work on Radio Ballads and the Critics Group) and Johnny Parker on piano.
Great stuff, although even remastering hasn't improved the balance on the skiffle tracks much.

RtS
(*I never understood the "dirty bopper" furore, hadn't those people heard Johnny Dodds on alto with the Armstrong Hot 5 & Hot 7?)

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:44 AM

Johnny Dodds playing alto on the Hot Five and Hot Seven Tracks????

Without referring to my library can you tell me which tracks you which tracks they are?


Hoot

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:32 AM

On "Don't forget to mess around" Johnny Dodds doubles on alto saxophone. It's a rare track done in Chicago, 16th June 1926.

Manfred

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

Hoot,
Thanks for the clarification - always intrigued me.
It would have been around the time I left school when I saw Donegan - so 1957 would have been about right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:30 AM

Hoot...also on "Come back, sweet papa" Feb 22 1926. Many of his larger groups of the same period (some recorded as "7") featured several saxes.

RtS

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM

Thanks, I do have all this in my collection, have had for years but I had forgotten Dodds's alto on those two track above.

Regarding the sax in early jazz one of my particular favourites is the Sam Morgan Band from N.O.

H

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 06:21 AM

I only saw the Sunshine band once They were backing Donnegan. Times must have been hard cos they were playing in an old school gym - completely cavernous room, and they had this crappy little Carlsboro PA that went out with the ark. The room was literally eating them soundwise.

You couldn't hear Lonnie's voice, the brass and clarinets seemed to have louder mikes that Lonnies.

My chief memory of the gig was that I was bale to buy a double album for my brother in law who's a Donnegan aficianado, but had been searching fruitlessly for years for Sally Don't You Grieve Over Me.

Lonnie was a little guy and I remember him being stopped on the way to the bogs to sign some old ep records one of which was Lonnies Skiffle Cellar. He was very polite and friendly to his fans.

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: SRD
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM

I saw Monty Sunshine's band many years ago (guesswork suggests around 35) at Wilmington (Dartford) school. I was a callow youth and asked MS if he had played with any other bands, "Oh yes" he said "The band of hope and the band of glory.".

Of course most saw George Melly at some point or the other. My last memory was him congratulating me on my hat (that was some compliment from George) at the funeral of his old editor in Wiltshire, some 10 years ago.

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:22 PM

Al
>>Sally Don't You Grieve Over Me<<
That was one of my favourite Lonnie songs, as well as Ham N Eggs.
Les

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

Rgarding the 'purism' of the Alto Sax , I (As a VERY Green Tradder) thought a 'Proper' Jazz Band could only have Soprano Sax and certainly NO Piano or Guitar ! Then I bought the early Riverside Album of King Oliver's March /April 1923 recordings . These were Louis Armstrong's first recordingse after he was invite North by Joe Oliver . Lil Harding on piano , Johnny St Cyr playing a Guitar tuned Six String Banjo and one Stump Evans playing Alto Sax on several tracks ! That put paid to all my 'Purist' pretensions !

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

Leadfingers: On some tracks (Alligator Hop, Zulus Ball,Workingman Blues and Crooked Blues)recorded by King Oliver and his Creole Jazz Band inclusive Louis, on Friday, October 5, 1923 Paul "Stump" Evans used a C-melody-sax.
Isn't this instrument situated in-between alto and tenor sax?

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

Oh those were the days Terry. :-)

Canal Street Blues - King Oliver 1923

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:51 PM

Leadbelly - Yes C Melody is twixt Alto and Tenor though I have just seen ( and NOT purchased due to Financial considerations ) A C Sax that is a Straight Soprano size Martin Sax !

Subject: RE: Donegan Colyer Barber Sunshine Patterson
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

Just thought I would posta couple of links related to Ken Colyer. Quite sad how he left us.

http://www.last.fm/music/Ken+Colyer

http://www.kencolyertrust.org/