Famous People in Children's Rhymes

Subject: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:00 PM

What rhymes do you know that include the names of historical or modern day world leaders, movie stars, or other famous people?

I'll start the ball rolling with some examples that I've heard or read.

Thanks, in advance, for your participation in this thread.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:03 PM

The noble Duke of York, he had ten thousand men...
he marched them up the hill and then marched them down again.

And when you're up, you're up...
and when you're down, you're down....
and when you're only half way up, you're neither up nor down.

Based on the poorly organized and managed Flanders Campaign in the 1790s.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM

Here's the example that I just found which served as the inspiration for this thread:

Bill & Monica sittin
in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First comes Ken Starr
Then comes Hillary
Oops!
There goes the Presidency!

By Butirfli on Wednesday, May 26, 1999 - 11:27 am:
http://www.streetplay.com/discus/
Streetplay.com Discussion: Girl Games: Singing: Silly songs, theme songs, etc.: Archive through November 27, 2000

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM

Thanks,Volgadon!

I've found this rhyme on a number of websites and books. but I didn't know that it was based on a real Duke of York.

I'm curious, was this a jump rope {skipping} rhyme, and, perhaps, also a ball bouncing rhyme. Or was it a handclap rhyme?

And does anyone know if children {girls mostly?} still reciting this rhyme in the UK, in the USA, in Australiaand/or in other English speaking nations?

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:12 PM

Re: the Clinton/Ken Starr rhyme that I posted: that was the first contemporary {post 1950} English language children's rhymes that I've found that refers to a political figure.

Does anyone know any other example of political rhymes that supposedly come from children prior to the 1950s or afterwards?

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM

I forgot to write his name. Prince Frederick. George III's son. He later founded the military academy at Sandhurst.

I would think that the rhyme was a run around wild in the street playing at whatever holds your interest for more than two minutes rhyme.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

I would think that the rhyme was a run around wild in the street playing at whatever holds your interest for more than two minutes rhyme.
-Volgadon

LOL!

That's a great description. Thanks!!

:o)

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM

Here's one I learned at my mother's knee. Don't know if it's a children's rhyme or a grown-ups one. It probably dates from 1945 or so. Although I can sing it I can't remember the name of the original tune - it'll come to me soon!

Vote, vote, vote for Winston Churchill
Throw all the others in the dock.
Winston is our man, we'll have him if we can
And we'll throw all the others in the dock.
(By the cock!)

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

Poor Michael Jackson. The still famous but no longer admired as much as he used to be in the 1970s & 1980s pop star will go do in history as a featured character in numerous versions of the widely known handclapping children's rhyme "Down By The Banks Of The Hanky Panky".

But what interests me the most about these rhymes is that they preserve accounts, in somewhat convoluted forms, of an actual happening. In addition, these examples also include commentary about Michael Jackson. Some of these versions are homophopic, which is sad to see.

Here's what happened:

1984: Michael Jackson burned in Pepsi ad
Michael Jackson has received hospital treatment for serious burns to his head after his hair caught light during a freak filming accident.

The 25-year-old entertainer was singing his hit "Billie Jean" for a Pepsi Cola commercial in Los Angeles when the special effects went wrong.

Three thousand fans saw a firework display erupt behind the superstar, showering him in sparks and setting light to his hair"...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/27/newsid_4046000/4046605.stm
-snip-

Here's two examples of these Michael Jackson/"Down By The Banks Of The Hanky Panky" rhymes, originally posted on this Mudcat thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=94034&messages=210

From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:39 PM

My friends play it like this:

Down by the bank by the hanky panky
where the bullfrogs jumps from bank to bank
We're sayin ep op ep op op
skiddle diddle kernal pop!
I pledge alligence to the flag
Micheal Jackson makes me gag
Coca Cola messed him up
now we're drinking 7up
7up has no caffine
now we're drinking gassoline
Gassoline not good for you
now we're drinking Mt. Dew
Mt. Dew fell off the Mt.
now we're drinking from a fountain
The fountain broke
and now we're back to drinking coke

**

Subject: RE: Origins: Down by the Banks of the Hanky Panky
From: GUEST,ME! - PM
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:53 PM

Down by the river
To the hanky pank
Where the bullfrog jumps
from bank to bank
saying E I O U
Your mama stinks and so do you
So ding dong ping pong
Your daddy smells like king kong.
Michael Jackson went to town
Dr. Pepper brought him down
Coca Cola brought him up
Now he's drinking 7-Up
7-Up with no caffine
Now we're talking Billy Jean
Inky Binky Bonky, Daddy had a Donkey
Donkey died
Daddy cried
Inky Binky Bonkey

-snip-
There are many more examples of this rhyme-including the homophobic versions-on that Mudcat thread whose link I provided.

I should note that I don't think that children reciting this rhyme nowadays or even way back when know or knew that it was recounting a historical occurrence.

It's also interesting to note that in spite of the fact that Michael Jackson was filming a television commercial for Pepsi-Cola, the name of the soft drink that is almost first associated with Jackson is Coca-Cola. I think that may be because the name "Coca-Cola" is more rhythmical and easier to say.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:53 PM

Thanks, GUEST 12 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM for posting that example.

For the purposes of this thread, I think it's okay to be somewhat "liberal" in our interpretation of what constitutes a children's rhyme. As long as there's no known documentation of the rhyme being written by an adult or adults, if children recited it or still recite it, the example can count as a children's rhyme.

At least, that's my view.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM

Here's a "clean" version of handclap rhyme that appears to be widely known {at least among African American girls & boys in numerous cities throughout the USA}.

Tweedleelee {Version #1}
Tweedleelee
(Treetop)
Tweedleelee
(My Prop)
Tweedleelee
Popsicle, popsicle
Your butt stinks

He rocks in the tree top
all day long
huffin and ah puffin
and ah singin his song.
All the little birds on Jay Bird street
Love to hear the bird go
Tweet Tweet Tweet!

Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee

I went downtown
To get ah stick of butter.
I saw James Brown
layin in the gutter.
I saw a piece of glass
stickin in his butt.
I never saw a Black man
run so fast.

Mama's in the kitchen
cookin rice.
Daddy's outside
shootin dice.
Brother's in jail
raisin bail.
Sister's on the corner
Selling Fruit Cock Tail.
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee
-girls and boys ages 6-13 years old; Pittsburgh, Pa, 1999, Northview Heights after-school program


-snip-
This handclap rhyme comes from the 1971 version of "Rockin Robin" that was recorded by Michael Jackson. That version begins with the refrain "tweed lee diddly dee {or some such words}". Visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X12itKdTCOg to hear this song.

Tweedleelee
(Treetop)
Tweedleelee
(My Prop)
Tweedleelee
Popsicle, popsicle
Your butt stinks

He rocks in the tree top
all day long
huffin and ah puffin
and ah singin his song.
All the little birds on Jay Bird street
Love to hear the bird go
Tweet Tweet Tweet!

Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee

I went downtown
To get ah stick of butter.
I saw James Brown
layin in the gutter.
I saw a piece of glass
stickin in his butt.
I never saw a Black man
run so fast.

Mama's in the kitchen
cookin rice.
Daddy's outside
shootin dice.
Brother's in jail
raisin bail.
Sister's on the corner
Selling Fruit Cock Tail.
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee
Rockin Robin
Tweet Tweetdalee
-girls and boys ages 6-13 years old; Pittsburgh, Pa, 1999, Northview Heights after-school program

"Tweeleelee" {or similarly sounding names} is a partner, or three person, or two sets of partners handclap rhyme and not a lightly competitive group handclap rhyme like "Down By The Banks Of The Hanky".

This handclap rhyme comes from the 1971 version of "Rockin Robin" that was recorded by Michael Jackson. That version begins with the refrain "tweed lee diddly dee {or some such words}". Here's a YouTube clip of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X12itKdTCOg

In my opinion, the name of R&B singer James Brown is an updated version of older children's rhymes that included the name of the fictitious characters "Buster Brown" and "Charlie Brown".

To read additional examples and commentary on this rhyme, visit http://www.cocojams.com/handclap_rhymes.htm


Some African American women in Pittsburgh have shared with me that they recited "Tweeleelee" in basically the same form in the 1970s.



Btw,

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM

Sorry for my poor cut & paste job.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 08:45 PM

Naughty Baby (Bonaparte)

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:25 AM

Here's another children's rhyme that mentions Michael Jackson:

Sham,sham,sham
I don't want to go hollywood
No more,more,more
there is a big fat Michel jackson
At my door,door,door
he'll grab me by the hips
Make me kiss his lips
I don't want to go hollywood
No more,more,more
-Anonymous on Sunday, November 19, 2000

http://www.streetplay.com/discus/
Streetplay.com Discussion: Girl Games: Singing: Silly songs, theme songs, etc.: Archive through November 27, 2000


**

Here's a version of the same rhyme from the same person. This version mentions Rock & Roll singer Elvis {Presley}, although Anonymous spells that singer's name "Elves":

Sham,sham,sham
I don't want to go Tennisee
No more,more,more
there is a big fat Elves
at my door,door,door
He'll grab me by the wrist
Make me do the twist
I don't want to go Tennisee
No more,more,more
-Anonymous on Sunday, November 19, 2000


**

That same poster shared what appears to be the most commonly found "contemporary" version of this rhyme- "I Don't Want To Go To Mexico". The "original" version of this rhyme is probably "I Don't Want To Go To Macy's."

Anonymous, November 19, 2000 noted that these were handclap rhymes.

**

In the examples of this rhyme that I've heard, and that I've read online, "Sham Sham Sham" is usually given as "Shame Shame Shame."
"Shame Shame Shame" serves as both commentary and introduction to the actual rhyme.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:26 AM

Joe_F, thanks for posting a link to that example.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:25 AM

We three Beatles of Liverpool are
George in a taxi, Paul in a car,
John on a scooter parping his hooter
Following Ringo Starr.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Fiolar
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM

I suggest that you get hold of the book entitled "Pop Goes the Weasel: The Secret Meanings of Nursery Rhymes" by Albert Jack. It covers practically every nursery rhyme and nearly everyone of them relates to historical figures and events.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:16 PM

Thanks. Fiolar for your suggestion.

While this thread can include examples from nursery rhymes, I'm much more interested in examples of children's handclap, jumprope {skipping} rhymes, game songs, and cheers.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

here's a version of God Save the King that [my daughter and son] proudly made up a few years ago:

Oh, tis our country be
I went to Italy
To see the king
His name was Jackie Chan
He smells like garbage can
He lives like a mouse
In the fat guys house

He fought with girls in court
He got a trial sport
He smells like an oil can
He's Jackie Chan

(They have no more idea what "trial sport" means than we do, but they liked the sound of it.)

Enjoy.
-Jacob {from his daughter Julia, 15, and his son Michael,13}; Arlington, Massachusetts; via electronic mail to Azizi Powell; 3/25/2006

Jackie Chan is an actor, film director who may be best known for his martial arts performances.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM

I'm going to take the liberty of reposting an example from this Mudcat thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=81350&messages=222


Subject: RE: I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes
From: Barbara - PM
Date: 22 May 05 - 11:22 PM

Ah, and in my Republican white collar suburb of Detroit, in the 50's we sang:
Whistle while you work
Stevenson's a jerk
Eisenhower has the power
Whistle while you work.

Blessings,
Barbara

"Dwight David "Ike" Eisenhower (October 14, 1890 – March 28, 1969) was President of the United States from 1953 until 1961 and a five-star general in the United States Army". Click here for his wikipedia page.

"Adlai Ewing Stevenson II (February 5, 1900 – July 14, 1965) was an American politician, noted for his intellectual demeanor and advocacy of liberal causes in the Democratic Party. He served one term as governor of Illinois and ran, unsuccessfully, for president against Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956". Click here
for his wikipedia page.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:03 PM

Georgie Best
Superstar
Walks like a woman
And he wears a bra
The bra's too big
He wears a wig
And that's why they call him
A sexy pig.

http://www.odps.org/glossword/index.php?a=term&d=3&t=360
Seedy Songs and Rotten Rhymes - the poetry of the playground

**
"George Best (22 May 1946 – 25 November 2005) was a Northern Irish professional football player, best known for his years with Manchester United...In 1968,...he won the European Cup with Manchester United, and was named the European Footballer of the Year"... Click here for the wikipedia page for George Best.

**

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2005/12/georgie-best-superstar.html features this entry:

Friday, December 02, 2005
Georgie Best, Superstar
Iain Dale 4:23 PM

"So George Best will be laid to rest tomorrow. I remember running round my primary school paying shouting "Georgie Best, superstar, walks like a woman and he wears a bra". As you can see, Ashdon County Primary School did a good job educating me. At that time I was a Man U supporter, but it was the season they were relegated. The shame of supporting a Division 2 team was too much so I decided to support the team which my best friend supported, West Ham United. Good long term decision, eh? Haven't regretted it for a minute. No Siree."

**

I found this note on another website:

'Georgie Best! Superstar! Walks like a woman and he wears a bra!' So sang the Old Trafford faithful in Best's heyday and as his life slips away, we have to make sure we remember Best for being inarguably one of the greatest footballers in the history of the sport. Our thoughts are with you, Georgie."
http://yermam.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!3A7FA58C279083A7!1339.entry

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 03:28 PM

Dr Foster went to Gloucester
In a shower of rain
He stepped in a puddle
Right up to his muddle (middle)
And never went there again

Apparently it's based on a true story - Aah'm sure someone oot there will enlighten

Ride A Cock Horse is another one with 'a history'

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM

I hear tell Geordie-Peorgie is a real person, but Georgie Porgie may not have been.

:o}

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

Here are some examples of famous people in children's playground rhymes from http://www.inthe80s.com/rhymes.shtml {I wrote the names of actual and not fictious famous people in italics}:


Marijuana, Marijuana
PCP, PCP
Betty Crocker makes it,
Ronald Reagan takes it,
Why can't we? Why can't we?

**

Joy to the world, Hussein is dead
We barbecued his head.
What happened to his body?
We flushed it down the potty.
And around and around it goes
And around and around it goes.
And around, around, around it goes.

**

Whistle while you work.
Hitler is a jerk.
Mussolini bit his weenie.
Now it doesn't work.

**

to: "On top of old smokey" On top of a white roof, all covered with blood
Regan shot Khadafi, with a 44 stud.
He went to his funeral, he went to his grave
Instead of red roses, he threw a granade.
He read in the papers, that he wasn't dead
So he bought a bazooka and blew off his head.

**

My name is alli alli chickali chickali pom pom poodles willy wolly wiskers My name is Elvis Presly girls are sexy sittin in a hot tub drinking diet pepsi My name is Cheif Roast Beef

**

Michael Jackson (alternate version):
I pledge allegience to the flag; Michael Jackson is a fag.
Pepsi Cola burnt him up- now he's drinking 7UP!
7UP has no caffiene; Now he's singing Billie Jean.
Billie Jean was not his lover and his nose is made of rubber!
Rubberface, but don't repeat it- now his dance steps are to Beat It.
Beat It now & don't you tell her this fine tale about the Thriller.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM

Here are two cheerleader cheers from my website that mention Pop music star Elvis Presley:


"Open up the barn yard kick out the hay cause we're the girls from the usa turn on the radio what do you here elvis peresly doing his cheer hop on ya horses pull out ya guns bum daddy bum daddy we're number one"
-Thomara B., 2/23/2007; http://www.cocojams.com/cheerleader_cheers.htm


**

"I'm submitting this on behalf of my 9 year old daughter. She came home from school today, we live in Clovis, NM, with a new chant that I've never heard of before so I thought that you would like to post this. Not sure of the name of it, so she's been calling it the Elvis Presley chant. It goes: Open the barnyard, kick out the hay, We're the girls from the USA. Turn up the radio, who do you hear? Elvis
Presley singing his cheer. We gotta F-I-G-H-T, We gotta F-I-G-H-T, We gotta F-I-G-H-T, (throw out punches into the air as the word is being spelled out each time) We gotta fight, fight, fight, on a Saturday night".
-Alex {on behalf of his 9 year old daughter}; 9/19/2007; http://www.cocojams.com/cheerleader_cheers.htm

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM

MBSLynne posted a rhyme from her daughter that includes a verse about Elvis Presley. I'm taking the liberty to repost that example on this thread:


Subject: RE: BS: Do kid still do clapping rhymes?
From: MBSLynne - PM
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 06:07 AM

My daughter, who is eight, is still doing clapping rhymes, though the ones she does are different from the ones I did in the 50s and 60s. (These, by the way, are in England). The one she seems to do mostly is:

I went to a Chinese restaurant
To buy me a loaf of bread, bread, bread.
He wrapped it up in a five pound note
And this is what he said, said, said:

My name is
Elvis Presley,
Girls are sexy
Sitting in the back seat
Drinking pepsi.

Where's your father?
Died in a fishtank..Last night
What did he die of?..Raw fish.
How did he die..Like this.

On the "Like this" they pull a strange face as of somebody dead. She says there are various versions of the rhyme. We used to do the first bit, but not the bit beginning with "Elvis Presley"...

thread.cfm?threadid=63097#1022419

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:40 PM

Vote, vote, vote for de Valera...

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:54 PM

Thompson, could you please post more lines to that children's rhyme or did you mean to post it in this Mudcat thread: Songs & Jingles In Political Campaigns?

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM

Here are two examples from thread.cfm?threadid=2998&messages=112

Subject: RE: Naughty kids' greatest hits II
From: Melani - PM
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 12:34 AM

On top of Old Smoky
Where nobody goes,
I saw Annie Oakley
Without any clothes.
Along came Gene Autry
And took off his vest,
And when he saw Annie,
He took off the rest.

**

Subject: RE: Naughty kids' greatest hits II
From: Metchosin - PM
Date: 10 Mar 02 - 03:18 AM

We used Betty Grable instead of Annie Oakley and from what I recall, sang:

Along came Gene Autry
A clippity clop
He sat down beside her
And pulled out his cock



subtlety was lost on us.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

One from before the War.

Hark the Herald Angels sing
Mrs. Simpson's pinched our King.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:32 AM

Thanks, Sailor Ron, for posting that rhyme fragment.

That rhyme refers to Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson. The word "pinched" in the line "Mrs. Simpson's pinched our King", the word "pinched" means something like "took" or "stole".

Here's an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VIII_of_the_United_Kingdom :

"Edward VIII (Edward Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David; later The Duke of Windsor; 23 June 1894 – 28 May 1972) was King of the United Kingdom and the British dominions, and Emperor of India from 20 January 1936, following the death of his father, George V, until his abdication on 11 December 1936...Only months into his reign, Edward caused a constitutional crisis by proposing marriage to the American divorcée Wallis Simpson. Although legally Edward could have married Mrs. Simpson and remained king, the prime ministers of his various realms opposed the marriage, arguing that the people would never accept her as queen...Rather than give up Mrs. Simpson, Edward chose to abdicate, making him the only monarch of Britain, and indeed any Commonwealth realm, to have voluntarily relinquished the throne"...

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM

Although it's not a children's rhyme, I can't resist posting this link to the words to Lord Caresser's now classic calypso song about King Edward and Wallis Simpson:

thread.cfm?threadid=90138#1706173
Most popular historical lovers...

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:56 AM

Georgie Porgie is usually reckoned to be King George IV.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:58 AM

Oh. Thanks, Manitas. I didn't know that.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

Manitas, I don't want to weigh into this topic because I know too little about it. But, for the record, from a brief online search and not a more thorough literature search, it appears that there is considerable disagreement about what many nursery rhymes mean, including "Georgy Porgie".

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM

Bah Bah Black sheep,
Have you any wool?
Yes sir Yes sir,Three bags full.
One for the master,
One for the dame.
One for the little boy.
Who lives down the lane.
Refers to payments made to the family disrupted by the birth of James 1's illegitimate son.
Three bags of wool = the payment.
Master = the husband of the Dame who gave birth to the child.
The little boy = obviously the son.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

The sentence that I posted on was poorly structured. I meant to say that I did not conduct a thorough search on the subject of the meaning of nusery rhyme. However, from the brief online search that I did conduct on that subject t of that subject it appears that there is considerable disagreement about what many nursery rhymes mean.

Perhaps nursery rhymes mean more than one. And maybe their meanings have changed over time.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM

Let me try that again:

The sentence that I wrote on 17 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM was poorly structured. I meant to say that I did not conduct a thorough search on the subject of the meaning of nusery rhyme. However, from the brief online search that I did conduct on that subject t of that subject it appears that there is considerable disagreement about what many nursery rhymes mean.

Perhaps nursery rhymes mean more than one. And maybe their meanings have changed over time.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM

Here's an example of a jump rope {skipping}rhyme that mentions a famous person:

George Washington

never told a lie.

'till he ran around the corner

(Drag out while singing. The jumper runs out and run around a turner then jumps back in and the song continues)

stole a cherry pie.

How many cherries were in that pie?

1.2.3.4....(count until the jumper messes up)

Contributed by Solana Reed

http://www.gameskidsplay.net/jump_rope_ryhmes/jump_george_washington.htm

-snip-

I like children's playground rhymes because they showcase children's creativity. I'm interested in this subset of children's playground rhymes {rhymes that mention famous people} because they preserve children's take on people who are currently in the news, or children's take on historical figures.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:46 PM

Manitas is reet abbot George IV (or Ivy as wez knaahn on Tyneside)

And... althoug it doesn't mention anyone partic'lar..........

Ring-a-ring-a-roses
Coron'ry thrombosis
Seizure! Seizure!
All fall down

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM

Here's another parody version of the song "Whistle While You Work":

Subject: RE: Folklore: Play Ground Hand Jives
From: EuGene - PM
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM

...I remember a "nasty" chant us boys would do at about 7 or 8 years old (sung to the 7 Dwarfs' work song):

"Whistle while you work,
Hitler was a jerk.
Mussolini yanked his weenie,
Now it will not squirt."

thread.cfm?threadid=102055

-snip-

In another post to that thread EuGene provided the following demographical information:

"I grew up for part of my early years in the remote Ozarks area of North Arkansas where there were no African Americans".

I'm not sure whether age 7 or 8 counts as being part of his "early years" or notthat time period or not. However, EuGene also noted that he remembered rhymes from "the 1950's and early 1960's".

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:16 PM

Geordie-Peorgie, thanks for posting that version of "Ring-a-ring-a-roses" {which is usually called "Ring Around The Roses" in the USA}.

The version you posted "sounds" like it might be an adult parody and not a children's version.

??

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:46 PM

Here's a children's handclap rhyme that mentions American pianist and entertainer Liberace


Shake, shake, shake
Eeny meeny
That's a queeny
Ooh ba Thumbalina
Ah cha ca che Liberace
Oh baby I love you
Yes I do.
Take a peach
Take a plum
Take a piece of bubble gum
No peach
No plum
Just a piece of bubble gum
Oooshe ahshe
Oooshe ahshe
I want a piece of pie
The pie too sweet
I want a piece of meat
The meat too tough
I want to ride the bus
The bus too full
I want to ride the bull
The bull too black
I want my money back
The money too green
I want a diamond ring.
{Source Barbara Michels, Bettye White, Apples On A Stick,
The Folklore of Black Children (Houston, Texas; 1983, p. 17)

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM

Oh Azizi! Aah wish it were so!

Unfortunately that version wez deein' the roonds when aah wez aboot 10 or 12 years - Aboot 1960!

There wez aall the others aboot Hitler bein' testicularly challenged.

There's a UK brewery (Shepherd Neame) who had a series of adverts for a beer caalled 'Spitfire' which took the p*ss oot o' the Germans - One advert was a picture of old Adolf with the slogan 'Spot The Ball'

Another one had a condom (in its packet) in a pint of beer with the slogan 'Oh-oh! Johnnie's in the drink' - Priceless

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM

LOL, Geordie-Peorgie!

Well I'm impressed that boys that age knew the medical terms "Coron'ry thrombosis".

At least I think that "thrombosis" is a medical term.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM

at my second camp, they sang one about a tall silk hat which had a "Christopher Columbus, what do you think of that"

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

Azizi asked if The Grand Old Duke Of York was a jump rope {skipping} rhyme, and, perhaps, also a ball bouncing rhyme. Or was it a handclap rhyme?
It is none of these. It is a kid's dance in which the boys form a line and the girls form another line facing each other. To the music the first couple join hands and skip down between the two lines. At the bottom, they turn and skip back up to the top. There they part and the boy turns left and skips down the outside of the line of boys while the girl turns right and skips down the girls' line. The boys then follow the first boy and the girls follow the first girl. At the bottom the first boy and girl face each other and make an arch with both arms held high. As each of the boys and girls meet, they link hands, pass through the arch and reform the two lines, with a new first couple. The original couple are now at the other end of the lines and the new first couple begin all over again.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:04 PM

I don't know. What do you think?

Sorry, Melissa. I couldn't resist that one.

Thanks for that example. That's not a song I know. But if we are branching out into children's songs and not playground rhymes, there are the call & response versions of Ruldolph the Red Nose Reindeer. Here's two:

Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (reindeer)
Had a very shiny nose (like a light bulb)
And if you ever saw it (saw it)
You would even say it glowed (like a flashlight)
All of the other reindeer (reindeer)
Used to laugh and call him names (like Pinocchio)
They never let poor Rudolph (Rudolph)
Join in any reindeer games (like Monopoly)

Then one foggy Christmas Eve, Santa came to say {say What?!}
Rudolph with your nose so bright
Won't you guide my sleigh tonight?

Then how the reindeer loved him (loved him)
And they shouted out with glee (Hurrah!}
Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer (reindeer)
You'll go down in history...(like Columbus}
-girls & boys, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; collected by Azizi Powell, 1997

-snip-

Btw, In 2006 I heard some African American children in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania say "You'll go down in history {like Martin Luther King}".

**

Subject: Lyr Req: got any kid's additions for Rudolph?
From: open mike - PM
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 07:35 PM

here is how the song appears in the D.T.
but i think htere are some other words
for the parenthesis--end of lines shouts

for instatnce the shiny nose and the "glows"
sometimes both have light bulb after them..'
but i am looking for a different one for "nose"
and we usually said "like Columbus" for the history one.


RUDOLPH, THE RED-NOSED REINDEER (with kid's additons)

Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (reindeer)
Had a very shiny nose (like a light bulb)
And if you ever saw it (saw it)
You would even say it glowed (like a stop light)
All of the other reindeer (reindeer)
Used to laugh and call him names (like Pinocchio)
They never let poor Rudolph (Rudolph)
Join in any reindeer games (like Monopoly)

Then one foggy Christmas Eve, Santa came to say (Ho, ho, ho)
Rudolph with your nose so bright
Won't you guide my sleigh tonight

Then how the reindeer loved him (loved him)
And they shouted out with glee (ha, ha, ha)
Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer (reindeer)
You'll go down in history...(like George Washington)

thread.cfm?threadid=76629

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:27 PM

Thanks, Bill.

I appreciate you sharing that information!

In the USA elementary school age boys {7-13 years} seldom like to play singing/chanting games with girls {except some competitive handclap games like "Down By The Banks Of The Hanky Panky" and "Stella Ella Ola." Btw, there are Mudcat threads for both of these rhymes}.

I would be surprised if this is any different in the UK. I'd also be surprised if children in the UK or elsewhere still perform this dance on their own inititive. Can you share any information on that? Also do you have a sense of how widely known "Duke Of York" might be among UK children nowadays {meaning,since the 1980s or so?}

Thanks again, Bill!

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:54 PM

Also, Bill, for what it's worth, about five years ago, I attended a wedding and a reception for a couple who were both born in Liberia, West Africa, but who both lived in Pittsbugh, Pennsylvania.

One of the dances that was done in this reception was very much how you describe the Duke Of York dance, except that the dance ended with the end the bride & groom and other males and females who just appened to be partnered up because they were facing each other in the male and female lines, dancing facing each other to the recorded music that was playing. I can't remember what type of music it was, but I think it was R&B or pop.

I think they called this dance "The Grand March", but I'm not sure about that.

I'd never seen this dance performed before at a wedding reception or anywhere else. Most of the people who were there were from Liberia, and they seemed to be very familiar with this dance. I recall asking someone about this dance and that person saying that it is customary for this dance to be performed at Liberian wedding receptions. I wonder if this is an Anglo-American Southern custom that was carried to Africa by free or freed African Americans who emigrated to what became Liberia in the 19th century.

Be that as it may, I really loved that dance. And I wish that we African Americans had that same custom at our weddings or other social gatherings.

Is this a dance that certain populations of White adults do now in the UK at weddings or other social gatherings?

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:12 PM

Just for clarification purposes, I can't remember what type of recorded music was played throughout that dance. However, I think that it was one song for most of the dance and then a different song {with no gap in between} for the ending segment when the "couples" danced facing each other. But if I recall correctly, both of these were instrumental songs and both of them were only moderately fast.

Also, one of the things that I liked about that dance was that people of all ages danced together. That is to say, a child could be partnered with an adult. It was just how it happened in two lines.

In defense of African American wedding reception customs, we usually do line dances at wedding receptions {or at least most wedding receptions I've been to do the "Electric Slide" if not any other line dance}. And usually children of varying ages will do the line dance {or try to do the dance} along with the women and men.

I know that this is only tangentially related to the subject of this thread. But I still wanted to share it.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:25 AM

Azizi,
I have no recent information on UK happenings. I'm talking about the 1950s / early 60s. The Grand Old Duke of York would usually be danced at parties (Christmas, Halloween, etc)organised for the kids by parents in small communities and villages. TV wasn't that big yet. We would do other "dances" like the Hokey Cokey (You put your left hand in... that's what it's all about!) aka in the US as the Hokey Pokey. Other kids' "dances (or games)" like "I sent a letter to my love", "The farmer's in his dell", "Musical Chairs" and "Pass the Parcel" would also be played.
There usually wasn't a band or any kind of recorded music - just a piano player and we all sang the words of the song as we participated in the activity.
I don't recall there being any problem with boys and girls of 8-14 years interacting with each other. It seemed like a natural activity encouraged by our parents.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:57 AM

Thanks for your response, Bill.

That's interesting information, especially the part that boys between 8-14 years old in those decades didn't mind playing what I learned are called "play party" games {but I haven't actually heard that term used}. In the USA, I've found that those singing games are adult initiated with children around 3-6 years old.

Btw, for what it's worth, re the games you mentioned "I sent a letter to my love", "The farmer's in his dell", "Musical Chairs" and "Pass the Parcel" I know a rhyme called "A tisket A tasket" with the line "I sent a letter to my love", but I don't think that it's that commonly known among American children nowadays {I didn't know it as a child}. And I don't know of any game that was played with this rhyme in the USA.

I know Hokey Pokey and Farmer In The Dell {but those are played at adult direction with pre-school children {3-4 years old more than 5-6 years old}. And re "pass the parcel", I don't know that one at all.

Again, thanks Bill for sharing this information for my curiosity's sake and for the folkloric record.   

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,Mike B.
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM

John Brown had a little Indian,
John Brown had a little Indian,
John Brown had a little Indian,
One little Indian boy.

One little, two little, three little Indians,
Four little, five little, six little Indians,
Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians,
Ten little Indian boys...

(not sure if it refers to the militant abolitionist of Harpers Ferry fame)

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM

Hi, Mike B.

Thanks for posting that song. I'm pretty sure that many Americans {including me} have connected the name "John Brown" in this rhyme to the Harper's Ferry abolitionist. But I wouldn't be surprised if the name originally referred to an anyman figure {like John Smith}-meaning that's a general, common name for a man. I say that because, what does the abolitionist have to do with ten little Indians {not to mention him "having them" which might mean they were slaves, right?

**

I know. I know. I went off on a roll...I really get in to this kind of stuff. I'm interested in children's rhymes in part because I find some of them aesthetically pleasing to read, to hear, and to see children perform them. I also consider children's rhymes to be window into the world of populations of children, and therefore should be studied for their historical, and psycho-social implications. Furthermore, I belive that examples of children's rhymes could have a number of academic applications.

But I've come to realize that one of the main reasons why I'm interested in children's rhymes is that they are a way to get away from much more pertinent, and much more serious subjects and situations. Plus, I equate the pleasure I get from finding possible sources of rhymes,verses, and lines in children's rhymes to the pleasure that some people get from completing difficult crossword puzzles or jigsaw puzzles or finding some nugget of information about some esoteric subject after putting in hours of "detective work". Collecting and studying children's rhymes is a hobby for me, and I ain't ashamed to admit it :o)

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM

Here's another example of a children's song that I found that mentions two famous people:


REMEMBER THIS ONE?

Head and shoulders, baby One Two Three
Head and shoulders, baby One Two Three
Head and shoulders, Head and shoulders
Head and shoulders, Head and shoulders
Baby One Two Three

Round the world, baby One Two Three
Round the world, baby One Two Three
Round the world, Round the world,
Round the world, Round the world,
Baby One Two Three

(Then we'd do an Elvis Presley verse while pretenting to play guitar and shake hips and wobbly legs. Next was Jackie Gleason)

Then we'd do the whole ensemble

Head and Shoulders, Round the world
Elvis Presley, Jackie Gleason
Baby, One Two Three

-By denise on Thursday, April 27, 2000

http://www.streetplay.com/discus/
Streetplay.com Discussion: Girl Games: Clap & rhyme / tongue twisters / word games: Clap and Rhyme: Archive through June 8, 2000

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:33 AM

Here's another example from that same website:



Another game is where you say "I won a _____ (whatever) such as:
First person: I won a bicycle
Second person: I two a bicycle
first person: I three a bicycle
second: I four a bicycle
first: I five a bicycle
second: I six a bicycle
first: I seven a bicycle
second: I eight a bicycle
first person: You ATE a bicycle?!?!
This works best with an 'unsuspecting' person, hehe...

My sister made one up where you don't stop at 8. You say "I one a turner" and you go up to eighteen, so the person says "I eighteen a turner"
and you say "You ate Tina Turner!?" heh.

-posted By Lizzi on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 05:05 am:

http://www.streetplay.com/discus/
Streetplay.com Discussion: Girl Games: Clap & rhyme / tongue twisters / word games: Clap and Rhyme: Archive through June 8, 2000

**

"Tina Turner" being the famous R&B singer who used to be married to Ike.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:54 AM

Here's another one from that streetplay.com discussion board:

any one rember this one

i went to a shop to by some bread bread bread
they asked my name and this is what i said
Elvis Presly
girls are sexy
sitting in the back seat
drinkin pepsi
pinchin boobies
at the movies
da da da CHEESCAKE
-By Anonymous on Sunday, May 7, 2000 - 02:15 am:

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM

I meant to share this story with that last example:

Three years ago I took my 10 and 11 year old nieces, their two girlfriends, and their 6 year old brother to a pizza shop. In addition to their pizza, I asked them what drink they would like to order. One after another each girl said "Pepsi" and my nephew looked at the girls and said the same thing. I said something like "Wow, you sure most like Pepsi". And one of my nieces said "It's because of that rhyme". I said "What rhyme?" {They already knew about my interest in children's rhymes}. And that's when I first heard that "girls are sexy/drinkin pepsi" line, although the example they shared was very different from this one and didn't mention Elvis Presley or any other famous person.

For the record, the rhyme that the girls recited in unison that day {and my nephew and I listened to} was similar to this one without the addition of the "Fudge fudge call the judge" independent rhyme that begins here with the "Wrap it up in toilet paper" phrase.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Do kids still do clapping rhymes?
From: KLC - PM
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

My mother your mother live across the street 18, 19 blueberry street every time when it is night the kids come out and start to fight: Boys are rotten made outta cotton, girls are sexy made out of pepsi, boys go to jupiter to get more stupider, girls go to college to get more knowledge. Wrap it up in toilet paper, send it down the escalator. 1st floor stop by your mama, 2nd floor stop by your papa, 3rd floor said you better watch out for the s s the t t the o o the p p spellssss stop. (And they pause to see who moves first)

thread.cfm?threadid=63097

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:10 PM

Ugh! What I said was "You sure must like Pepsi".

Now that was an important correction.

Okay.

Carry on.

:o)

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM

Here's a children's rhyme that mentions a real person from a looong time ago:


Nebuchadnezzar the King of the Jews
Sold his wife for a pair of shoes
When the shoes began to pinch
Nebuchadnezzar began to flinch
When the shoes began to wear
Nebuchadnezzar began to swear
When the shoes began to leak
Nebuchadnezzar began to squeak

When the shoes began to crack
Nebuchadnezzar said "Take them back!"
The moral of this story's true
If your wife you want to lose
Don't sell her for a pair of shoes!

http://www.odps.org/glossword/index.php?a=term&d=3&t=1013
Seedy Songs and Rotten Rhymes - the poetry of the playground.

**
Nebuchadnezzar II (c 630-562 BC) was the Babylonian ruler mentioned in the biblical Book of Daniel, who conquered Aram and Judah . There were other Babylonian rulers with that name. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM

Here's an example of a jump rope rhyme that mentions two famous people *

Landon in the White House
Waiting to be elected.
Rosevelt in the garbage can,
Waiting to be collected.

http://www.homeschool.co.uk/resource/jump-rope/jump-rope-rhymes.html
Christian Home Education- Jump Rope Rhymes

-snip-

* I figured that "Rooselvelt" referred to one of the US Presidents. But I wasn't sure which one or who Landon was. And so I looked up that name and got the answer to both questions. See this excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf_Landon

"Alfred "Alf" Mossman Landon (September 9, 1887 – October 12, 1987) was an American Republican politician, who served as Governor of Kansas from 1933–1937. He was best known as Republican Presidential Nominee, defeated in a landslide by Franklin D. Roosevelt in the 1936 presidential election."

-snip-

It's clear that this jump rope rhyme was composed by someone who favored Landon and not Rooselvelt for president. Did a child make up this rhyme? There's no way to tell. But it fits the broad definition of a children's rhyme since children were known to chant it.

It also interesting that this example was part of a collection of UK jump rope rhymes though the politicians mentioned are Americans.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

Aha!!

It appears that the UK Christian Home School collection of rhymes that I just cited receives rhymes from individuals in various nations {as per one comment about another rhyme that comes from Brazil}. That would explain the presence of a jump rope rhyme about Landon & Rooselvelt on a UK jump rope rhyme page.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Joe_F
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:42 PM

Azizi: In my family, the Nebuchadnezzar rhyme was merely

Nebuchadnezzar, the king of the Jews,
Pulled off his stockings, but left on his shoes.

The 1936 election, these days, is chiefly remembered because a poll conducted by a magazine, the Literary Digest, predicted a landslide for Landon. Its sample of voters was chosen from telephone directories. In 1936, there were a lot of people who couldn't afford a telephone, and they mostly voted for FDR. A classic example of the danger of biased sampling. Folklore has it that the Literary Digest was so embarrassed that it went out of business, but I rather doubt that.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 11:16 AM

Here's an example that I found on another Mudcat thread:

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Jingle Bells, Batman Smells
From: GUEST,Tipsy Turvy - PM
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:50 AM

I remember this one from primary school:

Joy to the World,
John Howards dead,
We barbecued his head.
He didn't pay his taxes,
We chopped him up with axes,
Joy to the World John Howards dead.

I went to his coffin,
I went to his grave.
Everyone threw flowers,
I threw a grenade.
The coffin went up,
the coffin came down,
the coffin went splat all over the ground
Joy to the World John Howards dead.

I looked in his coffin,
He wasn't quite dead.
So I pulled out a bazooka and blew off his head
Joy to the World John Howards dead.

thread.cfm?threadid=41750&messages=66

**

John Howard was the 25th Prime Minister of Australia from 11 March 1996 to 3 December 2007.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: GUEST,superstar
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

heres one I know and I am only 10 years


Elvis persly thinks girls are sexy
sitting on the back seat drinking pepsi
went to the movies saw some big boobies
nearly fainted away

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:36 PM

Somehow I neglected to thank GUEST,superstar for sharing this rhyme with us. If you happen to read this comment, please accept my apology for the length of time it has taken for me to acknowledge your contribution to this thread.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Cool Beans
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 10:27 PM

King George, he had a date,
King George, he stayed out late.
He was the king.
Queen Mary, she got sore,
She waited at the door,
King George came home at four,
God save the king.
---

We sang this on the playground of P.S. 249, Brooklyn NY USA in the early 1950s. It must have originated in Britain and hopped the pond. We sang it to the tune of My Country Tis of Thee, having no idea there was such a song (same tune) as God Save the King/Queen.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 11:53 PM

Thanks for sharing that example and demographical information, Cool Beans!

Were there any movements done while singing this song (like jumping rope or doing partner handclaps)?

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 12:01 AM

Other essential refs which seem to have been overlooked on this thread — the works of Peter & Iona Opie, 1950s-60s; esp The Lore & Language of Schoolchildren [excellent on all the children's variants on Disney's Davy Crockett song of 1956, also inexplicably overlooked], Children's Games In Street & Playground, Oxford Dict of Nursery Rhymes - all of which replete with examples of subject of this thread...

One which we haven't had so far which comes to mind is: 1 2 3 a-lairie, I saw Wallace Beery, Sitting on his bumbaleery, Kissing Shirley Temple [skipping or ball bouncing]. Also the Redwing variants about the sun shining bright on Charlie Chaplin...

Re Grand Old Duke of York: people in Barnet, North London, including my sister at one time, think it much older, relating to Barnet Hill & the Duke of York who fought the Battle of Barnet 1471.

The King George whose queen was called Mary, refd in above, was George V, 1910-36, grandfather of present Queen Elizabeth II.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 04:01 AM

It's often difficult to spot which is a children's rhyme and which an adults, as parody is often used as a political device for supporting and debunking famous figures.
There is one about Abe Lincoln based on the old ballad of Lord Lovel which begins:

1 Abe Lincoln stood at the White House Gate
Combing his milk-white steed,
When along came Lady Lizzie Tod,
Wishing her lover good speed, speed, speed,
Wishing her lover good speed.

2 Where are you going, Abe Lincoln?' she said,
'Where are you going?' said she;
'I'm going, my dearest Lizzie Tod,
O'er Richmond for to see, see, see,
O'er Richmond for to see '.

3 'When will you be back, Abe Lincoln?' she said,
'When will you be back?' said she.
'In sixty or ninety days at the most,
'I'll return to my Lady Lizzie, -zie, -zie,
I'll return to my Lady Lizzie '.

4 He hadn't been gone more than one or two days,
O'er Richmond for to see,
When back to the White House Gate he came,
All tattered and torn was he, he, he,
All tattered and torn was he.

5 'How do you flourish, Abe Lincoln?' she said,
'How do you flourish,?' said she.
'The rebels have killed my old Scoch horse,
And I have skedaddled, -dee, -dee, -dee, -dee,
And I have skedaddled, -dee, -dee.

6 Abe Lincoln rode his Burnside horse
Which started at the rebel's fire.
He threw the baboon heels over head,
And there he stuck tight in the mire, -ire, -ire,
And there he stuck tight in the mire.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 08:07 AM

Thanks MtheGM and Jim Carroll for posting to this thread.

MtheGM, I'm quite familiar with the works of Peter & Iona Opie and I consider their books to be essential resources for people interested in English language children's playgeround rhymes.

However, my purpose in starting this thread was to ascertain which children's playground rhymes and song parodies Mudcat members and guests remembered from their childhood and youth, and not which rhyme examples have already been included in any books. Of course, those two categories will often overlap. However, it's possible that "new" rhymes might be posted. And, from my past experiences on Mudcat and other websites such as my own site, I believe that it's probable that different variants of already documented rhymes will emerge via such Internet postings.

I find these threads on children's rhymes to be interesting reading from a folkloric standpoint, and enjoyable reading from a nostalgic standpoint. And, as I've just mentioned, I think that these threads can and often do add to the material (examples and comment/textual analysis etc) which is already available in off-line publications.

And-as a means of full disclosure- let me reiterate what I have written on several previous Mudcat threads: I'm interested in including some of the examples posted on these types of Mudcat threads in books that I'm planning to edit and self-publish. For the purpose of guests and those Mudcat members who aren't aware of this, as per my agreement with Max, the owner and founder of this site, I can repost examples & comments from guests on various pages of my website http://www.cocojams.com/ and in any books or other printed work that I edit or write. However, I must receive prior written permission via private messages in order to include any posts from active Mudcat members. If I understand my agreement with Max correctly, the use of posts from inactive members is a gray area. Generally speaking, if the posts are more than 5 years old, I've been including them in my rough drafts of these projected books.

One category that I'm focusing on is contemporary (1950s to date) English language playground rhymes and children's song parodies* that mention the name of a famous person (such as Abe Lincoln or Shirley Temple) and fictitious characters (such as Batman & Robin or Frankenstein). If any Mudcat member wishes to discuss these projects further with me, please feel free to pm me.

* I agree with you Jim that "It's often difficult to spot which is a children's rhyme and which an adults"...My definition of "children's parodies" are those songs/rhymes that have no known author and which children, teens, or adults, indicate that they sing or have sung as a child or as a teen, or that they know or remember other children/teens singing.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Cool Beans
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 12:59 PM

Azizi,
There were no motions accompanying the song about King George; we just sang it.
CB

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Nov 12 - 04:43 PM

Greetings!

I'm posting here to announce that I've added this new page on my cultural website Cocojams:

http://cocojams.com/content/famous-people-fictitious-characters-playground-rhymes "Famous People & Fictitious Characters in Playground Rhymes".

A few of the examples on that page are from this Mudcat thread, and many other, but not all the examples on that Cocojams page are from other Mudcat discussion threads. A hyperlink to this page and a hyperlink specifically to any other "internet source page" is included along with other citations.

I include rhyme examples from other websites to increase awareness about these rhymes, to facilitate the identification of these rhymes, and to help facilitate additional folkloric research of those rhymes and of other contemporary English language playground rhymes.

Thanks again and best wishes!

Azizi Powell

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 03:48 AM

At the top of the thread someone gave a name to the Duke of York.
When I googled it I got the answer that it was applied to whichever brass hat had recently bungled a campaign (and there were several).
The 'Vote, vote, vote' rhyme was a skipping rhyme - it may have had the names of the latest politicians, but to play it the names of skippers were used. Group skipping with a long rope -

Vote vote vote for Mary Barnet (Mary skips)
In comes Janet at the door (J jumps in and they both skip)
Janet is the one, and she likes a bit of fun
So we won't vote for Mary any more
Shut the door (Mary jumps out, J skips alone)

I really can't remember whether that rhyme was used in the 50s when I was at school in London, or one that my mother told me.

Subject: RE: Famous People in Children's Rhymes
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Nov 12 - 09:04 AM

Guest above, & a few years ago, wrote "Here's one I learned at my mother's knee. Don't know if it's a children's rhyme or a grown-ups one. It probably dates from 1945 or so. Although I can sing it I can't remember the name of the original tune - it'll come to me soon!

Vote, vote, vote for Winston Churchill
Throw all the others in the dock.
Winston is our man, we'll have him if we can
And we'll throw all the others in the dock.
(By the cock!) "

It went to the tune of "Tramp tramp tramp, the boys are marching."
My mother mentioned once that, when she was at school (in Portsmouth, UK) in the early forties, election day was always a school holiday. Groups of children would spend the day going round arm-in-arm singing, at least, the first line of the song, but using the names of the ellection candidates. They weren't partisan, but would sing the name of one candidate for a while, then go on to the next.