mentally ill club regulars

Subject: mentally ill club regulars
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:53 AM

Prompted by a few remarks in the "manners" thread and elsewhere recently.

How have people dealt with club or session regulars losing the plot?

Outright psychosis is maybe one of the easier ones to deal with - I've seen one person brought into an event by a friend while having some sort of acute rapid-cycling bipolar episode. Friend must have thought it would be good for her, and it might well have been, except that performing through somebody alternately shouting encouragement and bursting into tears isn't easy. (She was once a valuable asset to the folk scene, and I think I'd have done the same as the friend in his position. He couldn't have known what would happen).

Then there's the person who was once a good singer but is in terminal slow decline, unable to remember the tune most of the time, forgetting the words for nearly every song, and unable to read their own cheat sheet.

Alcoholism is probably the commonest problem folkies run into, but in my experience drunks tend to just stay away when on a serious bender (and others can go on performing past the point of being able to stand up). With drugs I suspect E is the worst in this setting - people get into foul tempers coming down off the stuff.

Events in pubs always have the easy option of getting the publican to ban people but that may not always be appropriate.

Anyone had to deal with somebody having established, persistent delusions, as from paranoid schizophrenia?

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: alex s
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

no, but we had a man who had a prolonged "absence" in the middle of a song, which was a bit unnerving. He recovered and had no idea it had happened.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM

Folk music clubs tend to have their social service aspects as well as their social aspects. Here in North America, the folk scene is generally based in coffee houses, often church coffee houses, rather than pubs, so alcoholism is much less of a problem than in the UK. Outright psychotics are rare, and they can be dealt with on a case by case basis. The biggest problems are the socially maladept who make other people feel uncomfortable and sometimes even afraid. They include all of the following and then some:

• Know it all braggards and loudmouths.

• People who lack the rudiments of physical hygiene and grooming.

• Would be Romeos, especially the touchy-feelly huggy-kissy kind.

• People who suffer from Asperger's syndrome and other autism spectrum disorders.

• Biggots who get off on putting people down because of their ethnicity, sexuality, religion, disabilities, etc. Often they do this with what they think of as humor, and then berate their targets who "can't take a joke."

• Control freaks who insist that everything be done their way or else not at all.

• Elitists who get off on putting people down for not knowing as much about traditional folk music as they do.

• Just plain jerks, assholes, and pricks.

There is no one effective way of handling them. I do know of cases where someone is assigned a buddy who can tactfully tell the person when he (almost always) or she (very rarely) is acting out of line. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:03 AM

I know places like that.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Zen
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:06 AM

Janice's list seems somehow strangely familar!

Zen

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: kendall
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

I stay away from such places.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:14 AM

ALL f*lk clubs aka care in the community drop-in centres (with a strictly limited list of honourable exceptions) are like that.

The late and sadly missed Jean Oglesby used to talk about just how much they were saving the NHS just by being there.

However, I expect crocheting and stamp collecting clubs attract an equally bizarre clientèle. I seem to remember Anne Lister mentioning one she knew where they had a sideline hobby of gun-toting. Now THAT sounds scary rather than just bloody annoying.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Most people with a psychotic illness such as paranoid schizophrenia manage to control it reasonably well most of the time with medication, support from a Community Mental Health Team and so on. Sometimes, often because of an increased vulnerabilty to stress, they have a relapse of psychotic symptoms. When this happens, hopefully friends, family, neighbours and ,yes, even other folk club regulars can assist them, alert mental health professionals and enable them to get the support they need to see them through the crisis.

As far as folk clubs go, I suppose it depends on how they see themselves. If they pride themselves on being part of the local community they exist in or welcoming to members of the public, it would be a bit rich if they started barring people because they suffered from a deeply disabling, stigmatising and socially excluding condition. However, if the clubs see themselves as exclusive set-ups that exist purely for the benefit of regular members, I guess they can bar whoever they like, no matter how flimsy the grounds.

Try to remember that most people with a psychotic illness who attend folk clubs are no different to any other member, unless they are actually becoming unwell. In those circumstances they need suitable help not ostracisation (or labeling as "socially maladept" or whatever the term of the day is).

I do get a bit sick of people saying folk clubs are "not care in the community" - a phrase sometimes heard on Mudcat. Who exactly made them exempt?

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:18 AM

I know these people. Maybe they can go to the festival set aside for dogs.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

Cross-posted with Diane. I love that quote: "The late and sadly missed Jean Oglesby used to talk about just how much they were saving the NHS just by being there."

With my mental health social worker hat on, can I say that Ms Oglesby may have been talking in jest, but there's a hell of a lot of truth in that...

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: mattkeen
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

Spleen
That Mudcatter speaks my mind.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

Well Matt, that's because you're a decent bloke, rather than the sort of plonker who writes: I know these people. Maybe they can go to the festival set aside for dogs.

I take it there's no-one with a mental health problem in your family, Marc Bernier?

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: mattkeen
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:28 AM

If one hasn't had at least a brush with any mental health issues, I would say
1. Just wait - It'll happen.
2. Denial is not a river in Africa
3. Its sometimes the only sane reaction to the modern world

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:47 AM

and of course most of us club organisers must be a sandwich short of a picnic to carry on doing it!

Serioulsy though, we have, on occasions, had to deal with with behaviour which one can only describe as inapproprite. Up to now we have been able to handle it and, because it is often alcohol induced, managed to get the situation under control by sitting with the offender in another part of the pub until such a time as they go home or get better. The only time I have had a brush with non-drink induced psychosis the same pattern seemed to work. Quiet room, quiet chat. Difficult, especialy when irrationality kicks in, but we persevered and eventualy sorted it out.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

We've got a twenty year old autistic son. He loves music particularly folk and Irish, possible because it's always been played around the house and in the car.

We have however stopped taking him to live sessions because part of the autistic condition is to have your own agenda. We are always conscious of the effect on performers of James becoming restless when he's finished his food/drink. He also , rather embarassingly, puts his fingers in his ears sometimes, not to reflect on the performance, but because of the way he hears certain frequencies.

We have, until recently, taken him to a local theatre which has performers on on Saturday lunchtimes, which he was just about able to cope with, as it's a situation that is miked up while people are chatting/eating lunch, and there is a girl there who has Down's syndrome who attends most weeks with her carers and copes very well.

It is a shame because James actually likes the music, but I think in many cases it can be stressful for the carers as well as the performers, and it depends on how the individual is able to cope.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:38 AM

There may be a fine line between eccentricity and insanity but, for me, it's what makes the folk scene (and life in general) so interesting. It's the boring old (and young) farts who take themselves too seriously who drive me to distraction.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: GUEST,surreysinger at work
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:46 AM

"we had a man who had a prolonged "absence" in the middle of a song"
Sigh ....Sorry Alex, but this - sounds more like petit mal epilepsy to me... and that isn't a mental illness.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

One of my favorite gigs ever was on Saturday nights, in a little restaurant/cafe that was in my very own apartment bldg. The audience were from the neighborhood, so had known many of them in a lot of different situations. One of the regulars was psychotic, a schizophrenic who lived on his own and wrestled with horrific demons--even still, except for the occasionally cryptic remark, his burden was never apparent.

There was another regular who had bipolar disorder, however, and could be very disturbing and, in an odd way, disruptive. Most of the time, she was "normal"-- quiet and mild mannered. On rare occcasions, she'd enter the room talking a little bit too loudly, with a manic edge in her voice. Even though she never did more than this, he effect was subtly and cumulatively unnerving. After a short time, the room was on edge. People who tended to linger would finish their meals quickly and leave, conversations were brief and muted, and when she left, both the wait staff and the cooks were drained.

For my part, it was all that I could do to play--I'd make a lot of mistakes, forget lyrics, and even which song I was playing, and my vocal cords would tighten and strain.

Peculiarly, I've played in hospital and extended care facilities and had my performances disrupted by all manner of behaviors--on more than one occasion, I've had to suspend the performance while audience members were restrained and removed--none of which were nearly as disturbing as the woman talking too loud and too fast.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:08 AM

"I know these people. Maybe they can go to the festival set aside for dogs."

Hi Spleen

I know Marc & in knowing him I believe he's refering to folks that would shun others with diabilities from festivals & venues & they could have a dog festival set aside for them

Marc has been a great contributor, supporter & a staff member of the Mystic Seaport Sea Music festival for many yrs & they put up with the likes of me, that speaks a lot for him & them

My own opinion is that it's not all that often that people with severe disorders attend folk venues & when they do they don't generally cause enough of a row to warrant any action at all, sometimes a word, maybe. They should be cut far more slack than your plain "arsehole". It only takes a person with a little sensability, tack, gentleness & understanding to put someone back on track. On the other hand if someone is medicated & has not taken their meds they should be told or asked if they missed their meds, that sometimes helps them put things in perspective.
There is usually one or two folks in a known or regular crowd who are good at handling a situation when it arises, they should be looked apon or called on to see to it.

Barry

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:12 AM

Isn't this Mudcat we all inhabit, just the same? We have our 'characters', we have people who obviously have 'problems' and we get those who are always sunny cheerful, and helpful.
Does this mean that we too are a form of 'Care in the Community'?

JM ¦¬]

(Maybe that's why I keep coming back here !)

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: maire-aine
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:43 AM

Wow, this brings back uncomfortable memories. While not exactly mentally ill, my mother began showing symptoms of Alzheimer's, but I continued to bring her to the Sunday night music sessions, so that I could play. Early on, she'd be content to sit with some of the other ladies and just listen to the music. As months went by, she'd become more fidgity and start asking when we were leaving every few minutes. Finally it got to the point that it was just too upsetting for her to leave the house and come to the pub, so we stopped going. But, bless their hearts, the other ladies took special care of her while she did go, so thanks to all of them.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:49 AM

"(Maybe that's why I keep coming back here !)"

Best therapy I've ever had!

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:57 AM

There is an individual I've seen at the Getaway who seems to have some form of mental illness. There is certainly something 'odd' about him and I have seen him get a little disruptive at times - interrupting people, blurting things out during performances, etc. I would estimate that he's in his fifties. I think he has been a member of FSGW for many years and he is very knowledgeable about folk music, sings along lustily with choruses and seems to very much enjoy himself. The 'regulars' seem to have accepted his 'oddness' and have developed a way of gently dealing with him when he has his moments and he is obviously welcome at their events. I applaud their tact, kindness and generosity. I can tell that his participation and attendance is very important to him and is a source of great enjoyment. Due to his condition, and I have no idea what it is, I would doubt that he has many social outlets.

I guess it is a tough call and would depend on whether or not the mentally ill individual behaves on a regular basis in such a way that makes it impossible for the performer or the audience to enjoy an event. Rightly, the organizers would have to take the stance that it's not something the club or organization can deal with.   It's all to the good, howevever if, as in the above case, a group can find a way to include the person and make allowances for the problem.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:01 PM

I do not know why your even talking about mental illness on this group especially above the line.


Scooby

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Silas
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:08 PM

"ALL f*lk clubs aka care in the community drop-in centres (with a strictly limited list of honourable exceptions) are like that."


Give it a rest Diane, you know not of what you speak.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM

I would suggest that if a club or other event (or performer) can't deal with an individual with mental health issues then the problem lies with the club or event (or performer) not the individual concerned.

A bit of tolerance goes a long,long way towards a better world.

Paul

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

That's a lot to expect of someone who has no training in mental health issues.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:18 PM

.....not really, just suspend your fear and react like you would to anyone else who is in an emotional/distressed state.

Paul

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Musket
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM

Years ago, I was involved with a mental health charity and a lady was on a local committee I attended and used to tell us the sad plight of her son. She said she would like some of us to meet him socially if she could get him to leave his flat for an hour or two, as it would do him good.

One of those weird moments... He turned out to be somebody who came regularly to our folk club with his guitar, write wild and wonderful abstract songs and although his delivery was err.. different, "I must be the only person using plectrums on a classical guitar" we didn't know about his health issues, as we seemed to always get him on a good day.

His mother didn't even know he came out, assumed he spent every night at home watching the box.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:23 PM

Are you sure...?

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

In response to Banjiman - I think it depends entirely on the extent of the mental illness involved. There are some conditions that certainly would be difficult for a person with no idea what was going on to deal with. What about extreme paranoia, etc.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

.....well I guess it depends how you would react to anyone else in an emotional or distressed state?

You have another suggestion?

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:30 PM

On the contrary, silasperson, I could list the "f*lk clubs" which are problem-free and excellent. Wouldn't take long. But I might miss one, and to avoid doing so, I won't. I know very well of what I speak, having been at most venues in the land at one time or another, wearing one hat or the other. However, since I haven't the faintest idea who YOU are, you might remember to address me as Ms Easby. I'm highly intolerant of assumptions of familiarity.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM

What are you in earth scared off?.


Scooby

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:34 PM

"I do not know why your even talking about mental illness on this group especially above the line. Scooby"

Because people with whatever condition they have, have a right to be able to attend a folk club. Putting the thread above the line recognises that fact and doesn't hide it away like some people would like to hide mentally ill people away.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:48 PM

With my mental health social worker hat on, can I say that Ms Oglesby may have been talking in jest, but there's a hell of a lot of truth in that...

Spleen Cringe... You ain't just whistlin dixie. After my 23 year old daughter passed away (suddenly from illness) 3 and a bit years ago, I was a basketcase. If not for a desire to sing and honour the memory of singing with her (she was an awesome performer) and finding an environement to do it (the folk scene), I would be a drain on the NHS and society. Up until a year and a bit ago, I was stil seriously depressed, self-harming and though not actively suicidal I did not care to live. Folk music is keeping me functioning, actually giving me joy and keeping me off a CMHT caseload.

I hope that the folk friends I am making will help me and support me when memory loss and (hopefully) cantankerous personality surface. I hope I am able to support others in kind now and in future.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:50 PM

I agree with Maryrrf

Autism is a typical example. I am sure there are many talented people out there who are on the autistic spectrum. If you know nothing about Autism, you will probably not know how to deal with such a person who is upset or doesn't seem to look at things in the same way as you and who lacks social skills.

I have seen my autistic daughter on stage with her chior in front of 100 audience. She loved it and smiled (that is unusual for her). Ask her to go and ask for something from another person and she freaks out. If you don't why she can't ask somebody for something, then you will not be able to help her and can in actual fact make the problem worse.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

This is clearly an example of the screwed up loner types that I encountered all too often while:

(a) doing the "clubs" myself long, long ago
(b) driving others better qualified to play them
(c) compiling the "f*lk" directory
(d) visiting to tout for gig for others
(e) just going from time to time because I'm a masochist.

"silasperson" doesn't know me, even if he pretends to do so.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:54 PM

Because i have a mental illness Mark Dowding.

Scooby

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Silas
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM

Diane, this thread is quite a sensitive one, I am sure that even you know what sensitive means, so butt out with your unwarranted arrogance and go and pester another thread.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Megan L
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

I wish people would stop putting little labels round peoples necks because they are to damned lazy to be bothered getting to know people. EVERYONE is a human being Everyone has some mental problem even if it is just being a narrow minded biggot. GEt to know people they are an amazing species if you give them a chance.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Mistake. Sorry

>> If you don't why she can't ask somebody for something, then you will not be able to help her and can in actual fact make the problem worse. <<

should be If you don't know why she can't ask somebody for something, then you will not be able to help her and can in actual fact make the problem worse.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:08 PM

No-one wants (or should want) to know about my illness and ailments, still less so do they want to listen to the silasperson tilting at imaginary windmills in such a crass and irrelevant fashion. Is this a mental illness? Who the fuck CARES?

I know a musician that I invariably come across at Towersey. He has Aspergers Syndrome. This means he's likely to just walk off in the middle of a conversation, that sort of thing. You deal with it by not showing that you notice, or are in any way bothered. Of course,Towersey showground is a bit bigger than the average pokey, clique-ridden "club".

Sounds a good way of dealing with rude, ignorant bullies with delusions of knowing people they don't but it's rather more difficult to make it work. I can, of course, just switch off the computer and go out and hope against hope that someone like the "silasperson" isn't where I'm going.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Silas
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

I would imagine that most people would walk off in the middle of a conversation with you, you don't need to have aspergers to qualify for that one.

Rude ignorant bullies - now, why is that ringing a bell?

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Not necessarily mentally ill, but folk clubs provide a lot of lonely, socially inadequate/unskilled people with a place they can go on the cheap once a week and feel part of a community. If they weren't there, some of them might well deteriorate (the people that is, not the clubs, or yet again . . . ) Anyway, I always thought that's what Jean Oglesby meant. It only becomes a real problem when the number of them in one club becomes quorate . . .

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

I would suggest that everybody adheres to NOT FLAMING.
Having a go at an individual is not acceptable.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:19 PM

Autistic people can be a huge asset or a horrendous liability. I have a friend with some atypical form of autism (officially Asperger's as that got him into the benefit net, but almost certainly not). He's hugely entertaining and fits in just fine, most of the people listening don't realize just how odd he is. At the other end, I was once at a session where a carer brought in a very severely retarded and extremely autistic young man (so big and hyperactive it was surprising he didn't have *two* minders to keep him from running into traffic) who had no discernible reaction to the music but was determined to use our instruments as bats and footballs. Not his fault, but what on earth was that carer thinking? It's not as if the carer was interested either - somebody must have told him that folk sessions are a good place to get someone else to do the minding for you.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:21 PM

In my experience, most bad behavior in performance venues is connected to alcohol, seconded, on occasion, by those intoxicated by their own self-importance.

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM

Some of what you say about your daughter rings true of our son, Villan. You're right in that you really have to live with autism/aspbergers or work with it to fully understand it. On the other hand of course, all autistic people have their own personality under the condition.

I think the person's carer is the best to decide if it is appropriate to take them to a folk club. I've always found that the folk crowd are extremely tolerant.

Strangely, the only time I've really been put off my stride is by someone laughing too loudly. I do mainly comedy stuff so you'd think I'd be grateful, but it was one of those loud booming guffaws that carries over into the next three lines of the song.

Will have to think of strategies to cope with that one!

Subject: RE: mentally ill club regulars
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:36 PM

This thread put in mind of an event which shall remain nameless where a family brought their Down Syndrome child and parked him at the dessert table so that they did not have to deal with him. He was happily stuffing himself with sweets when I asked him if he liked music. He lit up.
We left the food and went off to the room where there was singing and musicians. He and I thoroughly enjoyed it. When he knew the lyrics he sang along. Someone sang a slightly risque tune and he laughed and blushed.
If someone is a problem and interferes with others enjoying themselves, they need to be reined in or asked to leave. If someone is "different" and it makes you uncomfortable, don't make eye contact. It is your problem, no one else's.