Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?

Subject: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:49 PM

This song is usually given as "traditional - arranged by AP Carter" -- as with other songs sung by The Carter Family.
It seems to be made up of "floater verses" that have no connection with each other. That's OK. I like the song and we sing it, but what I've always wondered is -- was there was an earlier song using the first verse and going in a different direction? That is a complete song that made sense.
The Carter Family got their songs from all over. Many were published songs from the 19th century. (Like "Wildwood Flower" which is never given with it's original author).
Anyway -- seems to me:

Hello stranger put your lovin' hand in mine
Hello stranger put your lovin' hand in mine
You are a stranger but you're a friend of mine

was once headed in a completely different direction. Any thoughts? Any ideas?
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:10 PM

Good question, Joy. I've tried to trace origins of Carter Family songs for years, because I think a lot of people pay royalties when they don't need to. There's not much on this song in the Traditional Ballad index:

Hello Stranger

DESCRIPTION: Floating verses describing singer's grief because her sweetheart is in prison.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1938 (recording, Carter Family)
KEYWORDS: loneliness separation prisoner floatingverses
FOUND IN: US(SE)
REFERENCES (1 citation):
Asch/Dunson/Raim, p. 114 "Hello Stranger" (1 text, 1 tune)
Roud #15144
RECORDINGS:
Carter Family, "Hello Stranger" (Decca 5479, 1938)
File: ADR114

---

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
Go to the Bibiography
Go to the Discography

The Ballad Index Copyright 2007 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

---

Roud lists only the Carter recordings.

By the way, lyrics were posted in this thread (click).
Take a look at the Anthology of American Folk Music songbook for more information.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:40 AM

Thanks, Joe. I keep finding "Carter Family songs" in old books of parlour songs published well before A.P.'s birth. When we perform I always credit the authors of the songs we sing if I can. I usually add that they were performed by the Carter Family because they did add a whole new sound to the songs they sang. Also they were well-known and loved here too. I understand that many, many people who sent songs to the Carter Family expected them to claim them. Some songs sent by fans were original, some were out of old books.

Cheers, Joy
Quote from True-love.
Hildebrand here: during a performance at Bean Blossom one day in the 60s, Bill Monroe introduced a number thus: "Here's a little tune that's been around for a long time, but we just happened to get our copyright on it before anybody else did."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:42 AM

Joy, if you've kept records of those earlier versions of Carter Family songs, that would be a wonderful topic for a thread.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:00 AM

Hmmm Yes it would, Joe, wouldn't it. Back about 10 years ago I was passing around a booklet I compiled called, "Setting the Record Straight - Who Really Wrote those Old Songs". I included songs popular on the Australian folk/bluegrass/old-timey scene that were usually mistakenly called "traditional". Most were parlour songs from the 19th century. Many of them American. Quite a few were "Carter Family songs".
At the time it was harder to find details about songs and I used a lot of old books as my references. Now with the internet it's an easier task. When I joined Mudcat I was so happy to find singers like us who cared about such things.
I do still occaisonally come up with some answers here and I post them on the thread concerned -- but that's happening less often. It's a good thing. I love being part of this community.
Yes -- though -- let's have a Carter Family song thread about who wrote the songs. OK off we go.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:21 AM

No that sounds like a good idea.
It probably deserves a new thread with an easily searchable title.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:25 AM

Right! I see that whilst I was reading this thread, that is EXACTLY what you have done. Here is a BLICKY for anyone who reads this thread.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Richie
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM

Hi,

This song is a collection of blues and traditional lyrics from different songs arranged by A.P. Carter.

Richie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:15 PM

Thanks, Geoff. Isn't this fun.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: GUEST,Doc West
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 01:51 PM

I love the old Carter songs. My Grandmother from eastern Ky. was according to family history, was related to the Carter's.
I play a lot of their songs at the gig's I do.

Doc

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: GUEST,jb
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 12:31 PM

I'm a part-time violinist who's played various styles. I like the Carters. They made the songs their own. Adaptation is an art that keeps coming back.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 01:02 PM

they made them their own for 2 reasons so AP could say he wrote them benefit finacially and also for artistic reasons so that they stood out and were instantly recognisable, i like the original carter family too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 03:19 PM

Fun to see old threads resurface.
That's a good point Good Soldier Schweik about the Carter Family putting their mark on songs so that they stood out. Not just a financial move then?
Their mark is easily heard on songs like "Wildwood Flower". I've tried singing it from the original sheet-music and it's sweet but lacks drive. From a pretty waltz it became tense and full of emotion in the hands of the Carter Family.
So has anyone come any closer to answering my original question?
Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 05:30 PM

Ralph Peer of Victor was the driving force behind getting the Carters to adapt and copyright everything. Ralph had them copyright everything in AP's name, even if AP had little or nothing to do with the actual arrangement. However, AP split the royalties equally with Sara and Maybelle.

Pardon my heresy, but I personally find the Carter adaptations generally lackluster in comparison to the original works. The originals may have erred (per modern tastes) on the side of the florid and contrived, but the Carters watered most things down to the excitement level of weak tea. While I've first tripped upon some songs due to the Carters, it has never been their versions I wanted to learn. If the Carter sound managed to develop more interest later on, credit is due primarily to Lesley Riddle (who was also responsible for preserving the music of the songs that he and AP gathered during hunts for new material).

The best threads for all things Carteresque are these:
Origins: The authors of the 'Carter Family' songs
Carter Family Songs: Summary of Sources
Lyr Add: Some Carter Family songs.

Sadly, none of them sheds any more light on the origin of the "Hello Stranger" stanza.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 05:34 PM

lesley riddle taught maybelle guitar, true, but sara carter was a good singer, cant agree about weak tea, that is one thing sara carter or her singing was not

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 06:18 PM

Ralph Peer first recorded the Carter Family in August, 1927.

They met Leslie Riddle in 1928.

His guitar work, as done in the 1960s and recorded by Mike Seeger, sounds like perfect "folk music era" fingerpicking to my ears.

Maybelle Carter used a thumbpick, possibly a simplified version of Riley Puckett's guitar playng.

Puckett was recording for Columbia in 1924.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 06:08 AM

pdq ,are u saying lesley riddle never helped maybelle with the guitar, did the carters give lesley a wooden leg?or are you saying thats a myth

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 09:49 AM

http://wwbnews.worldwidebluegrass.com/article32.html

That link may help someone looking for Carter Family song origins/writers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:51 PM

I started the link "Authors of the Carter Family Songs" but it got me no closer to the answer to my question about "Hello Stranger". The other links don't help either. Interesting discussion though.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:18 PM

I want to explain myself a bit. As to the old songs -- I love the 19th century songs and I sing them in different ways depending on what feels right for them. Some with piano some with banjo, some with guitar, some with dulcimer, some just with voice. Some of them I like to use Carter-Family style accompaniment but actually not many.
Songs themselves have a life of their own though --apart from a singer's treatment of them. After studying the songs of the 19th century and their authors I have come to understand that they well reflect life. I find them moving and beautiful and often so very sad. More and more I wander around in the years before 1900.
Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:25 PM

Songs from that era but before the Tin Pan Alley proessional songwriting are called Heart Songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 08:52 PM

Have you seen this site? It's got lots and lots of good info about the roots of the Carter Family repertoire.   "*Hello Stranger: Early 1900s- Traditional blues lyrics arranged by Carter Family. Carters-1937"
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/original-carter-family-songs--alphabetical-order.aspx

It's also an excellent site for bluegrass or bluegrass-related lyrics.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 09:31 PM

The man behind the Bluegrass Messengers website is Richard Matteson.

He is a very valuable contributor to Mudcat and posts as "Richie".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:36 PM

I enjoy the Carter Family's music and songs but did they always know what they were singing about - or do I misshear? Girls wearing mushrooms in theiier hair and jelly rolls growing, are they really singing that?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 05:49 PM

I love the jelly-roll plants too. They are singing that.
Maybe they grow on Big Rock-candy Mountain. That is if it's the cake we're talking about and not the other kind of jelly-roll. Although --the other kind is surely there too judging by the darker meanings within the Big Rock-candy Mountain song.
Me-- I'm an Aussie so we call the cake a jam-roll and the other kind belongs in blues but not in Aussie-speak.

Speaking of hair. I always loved the wildwood-flower girl with the raving black hair. Driven mad by love she was, so it figures.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 05:55 PM

Heart Songs is an American term for 19th century songs. They are usually referred to as Parlour Songs in the British Isles and Australia.
I understand that "Hello Stranger" is made up of floating verses from blues but I still wonder if the first verse once belonged to a Heart/Parlour song.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:57 PM

I'm looking at my copy of Still a Mem'ry Living. Joy & Hilderbrand Sing American Folk & Heart Songs. 1999.

I assume it is long out of print?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: PHJim
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 01:24 PM

Not only the Carter Family, but many who sang their songs later on seemed to sing the words that Sarah sang, even though they made no sense"....the pale and the leader and eyes look like blue?"   

I will also admit to singing old blues and jug band songs that I don't really understand, but I just love the feel of the song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

Me too Jim. Keeping words and phrases that sing well and have strong images is what makes these songs so wonderful. I keep the mushrooms and the jellyroll plants in too. And the raving hair.

Thank you Sandra. 1999! It was expensive and difficult for the likes of us. Such an achievement.
We've got plenty left :-).
We have always given most of them away to friends and sometimes to strangers. Sharing these songs with anyone who'll listen is what it's about.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: pdq
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 08:33 PM

Here is a thread about Wildwood Flower:

                                                                               thread.cfm?threadid=4074

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 12:01 AM

Joy, I would love a copy of Still a Mem'ry Living! Can you please let me know details re postage, money etc? I'm more than happy to pay.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 03:44 AM

I bought mine at Jamberoo where I first met Joy - then almost forgot her until I'd been on the 'Cat a few years when Joybell started posting!

sandra

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hello Stranger - is there an older song?
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:25 AM

Jennie. I'd be thrilled for you to have a copy. Pm sent.