Why folk clubs are dying

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Nick
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:57 AM

Ian

The 'I'll start a second one' type (relative of the 'you know this one don't you, Steve?' as they launch into another one of their own favourites) gets dealt with very simply where we have our singaround. Almost in unison he/she will be met with about half a dozen plus people going "whooaa, hold on a second that's not how we do things here" and life continues along as we want it to be. United we stand etc etc And at the end of each time round the room we make sure that anyone who has been missed or just come in can tag on the end.

Melissa

Why can't people be ready? Search me. It's a complete mystery. It's a difficult concept to grasp isn't it, this "have a go after the person on your right has gone" thing?
Personally I like music to fill the evening rather than an evening of conversation interspersed with occasional music which battles against the well of noise that builds up when the music stops, but that's just me. A typical evening probably sees us get through 40 or 50 tunes and songs so I do like to keep things moving. Hate raffles which get in the way (surely it's easier to stick a quid in a bucket?) and carry on playing tunes through the food...

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Nick
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 05:23 AM

We probably don't have many 'famous' people visiting us but we have a reasonable number of people who play regular gigs who come and visit our singaround. I think without exception they just fit into our ways. Looked at from the other side it's a bit much to expect them to give you a free performance. From my experiences where we play - and other similar places - most of the 'famous' people just fit in and play and enjoy themselves. I had a lovely evening in Sidmouth this year in the company of a highly respected music person, who didn't know me from Adam, who was there to play his bodhran and have a few beers.

We had a guy from Canada who came and visited earlier this year called Dan Mackinnon (fine singer and player). He was playing a gig in York the following night and came and joined us for a sing and a play and 'got it' immediately. Joined in with the choruses, joined in on the tunes and took his turn as it came round; played one and moved on to the next. From what I gather had a thoroughly enjoyable evening and it probably swelled the audience for his gig the following evening!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Faye
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 10:52 AM

Yes, I think that organisers should impose quality control. That's not a criticism though. I am aware that organisers have to allow the crap singers to get up and sing because they come every week and bring their mates and family with them.

OK, I wrote my first post at a time when I was feeling very heated. Sorry about any misunderstandings. I'll cool down before I post next time, promise.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 11:38 AM

Is that the real "Guest Faye" or someone pretending to be "Guest Faye"?

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 04:56 PM

ubject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Faye - PM
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 10:52 AM

Yes, I think that organisers should impose quality control. That's not a criticism though. I am aware that organisers have to allow the crap singers to get up and sing because they come every week and bring their mates and family with them.

OK, I wrote my first post at a time when I was feeling very heated. Sorry about any misunderstandings. I'll cool down before I post next time, promise.
yes, always a good idea to calm down before posting,and also to read posts properly.
to accuse me of not having a respect for the music is laughable,still I dont expect I will get an apology.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 03:45 AM

Don't panic; don't panic - it is not my intention to re-open a subject which I believe has been given a sufficient enough airing to suggest that arguments such as this do not change anybody's minds - it would be extremely naive to suggest that they do. After all, most of us have given the subject enough thought and gone through enough experiences at the 'folk face' in the past to have fairly firm opinions and knowledge on whatever we discuss on these forums.
The best we can hope for is that we arrive at some understanding of each others opinions and bear them in mind when forming our own - that's how it has usually worked for me anyway.
"The nit-picking, sneering, mean-spirited comments here are NOT good advertising"
It is this, and similar statements I wanted to comment on.
The world of folk - 'folk' even - includes one of the friendliest, co-operative, generous and dedicated group of people it has ever been my good luck to encounter (try the theatre, or classical music, or thumb through some of the pop-mags if you want snide, backbiting, self-interest/promotion/indulgence/importance - whatever).
This forum is full of contributions which offer advice, help and material - often to a staggering degree in my experience.
For me, and I suspect, for a few others, the music that we have spent quite a long time attempting to promote to a position we believe it deserves, is under threat of disappearing as a performed art. That some of us feel passionate enough to be prepared to risk ruffling feathers and frightening a few horses on occasion, is a strength and nothing to do with nastiness or mean-spiritedness - it means we care enough to speak our minds - long may that continue to be the case.
I am extremely grateful to the original questioner for her thought-provoking question - the only disagreement I have with her is that she felt it necessary to apologise - it wasn't; nor has it been for those who have gone before and hopefully, will come after.
A Happy New Year to all - including those whose noses we have got up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 05:33 AM

As ever Jim, an excellent post and I echo all of the sentiments. It must be the Edinburgh air!

I have been extremely fortunate in my own life (thus far - though I suspect more is behind than in front) to have met some wonderful people and shared some memorable times with them. The vast majority of which have involved some sort of generous hospitality.

I hope in some small way to have reciprocated.

You wanna see backbiting at its best? Try sport at any level.

And a happy New Year to you all.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:16 PM

Here is an interesting fact of relevance to the discussions on the moribundity of clubs etc.
I have just had an email from two trendy young twenty-somethings asking for advice on acts to book: they are going to OPEN A FOLK CLUB! In London!
So, how about that eh?
A Happy New Year to one and all.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:41 PM

Well, I wish them every success! I hope you remembered that charity begins at Stoke, and mentioned a certain band to them...

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

I have had a good read through this (and other) threads on similar subjects.

there are many dedicated people, who thoroughly enjoy their hobby, lifestyle and cultural relaxation, and work hard to ensure others have a chance to enjoy it also.

That said, if venting your spleen on these pages is to have some benefit, then it is a good idea to try and sum up (ok, based on my views which may not be everybody's..) what the observations have highlighted.

There are some subscribers who if they re read their posts, may perhaps accept they are a little precious? Rather than ask why clubs are not the tour de force of 30 years ago, defend things that others criticise. No problem with that, it would be awful if we all agreed.

But ask why people do not attend in the droves they used to? Perhaps they have moved on. Perhaps they sometimes feel uncomfortable with the sentiments in many popular songs? Perhaps they look for nostalgia but find they are a different person now, so the nostalgia is for a different them as well as a different time?

Perhaps we have been replaced by Virtual Folk CLub II, available for PSIII, PC and X Box. From the comfort of your own home.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:59 PM

I have this theory.

We all used to go folk clubs in the 1960's because we didn't want to stay at home and watch Rolf harris, Val Doonican and The Younger Generation.

The shadow of the threat of Jake the Peg (with an extra leg) has been lifted for ever.

We have been delivered.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:05 PM

And the threat superseded by the threat of SKYTV the brainkiller.

Run!

While you still can!

While you still realise that you should!

You have been delivered from ennui to brain death!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:30 PM

"We all used to go folk clubs in the 1960's because we didn't want to stay at home and watch Rolf harris, Val Doonican and The Younger Generation."
Another theory bites the dust.
Some of us took to folk music because we liked it - some of us still do no matter what kicking it gets from 'wannabe folkies'.
jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM

Personally I figured I looked good in check shirt and sandals, and with a beard. You can put up with any amount of folk music to make the right fashion statement. It was 'ban the bomb' chic

With all this shite music going (long ballads, jigs and reels) I thought - this is my chance to strike a pose and look moody, sexy and interesting - give the room a chance to focus on something attractive, but with unmistakeable allure of depravity - me.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:53 PM

Gosh Al, what happened since?

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:14 PM

Actually, I can answer that. It was a holiday, a holiday, the first of all the year, and Al to the church had gone, all moody and interesting in check shirt and sandals, to see fair ladies there. Unfortunately, his well-established aversion to long ballads left him ill-prepared for what happened next. Fortunately for Al, Lord Barnard eventually saw the funny side, but the post-traumatic after-effects of the experience left him permanently unable to strike his trademark check-shirted moody pose, or to so much as look at a pair of sandals.

Kids! Don't let this happen to you! Learn a Child ballad today!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:06 AM

"Kids! Don't let this happen to you! Learn a Child ballad today! "
Many of them already know at least one- Weela Weela Walya - and maybe even Henry My Son,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:48 AM

"Oh Mum come quick 'cos I feel very sick and I want to lay down and die..."

I first heard that one from my younger sister, when she was in the Brownies.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: melodeonboy
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:42 PM

"All you have is nostalgia."

Speak for yourself!

I've only been back in the country for three years, having spent most of my adult life abroad. I didn't go to folk clubs thirty years ago, so nostalgia doesn't come into it for me. And I'm having a whale of a time.

Not everything out there is good, but if you can be arsed to make the effort and look around, there are great times to be had!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 03:31 AM

"Oh Mum come quick 'cos I feel very sick and I want to lay down and die..." - Lord Randal, Child 12.
"Steamin Willie Hardonn" - who was that arrogant prick?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 06:57 AM

"Weird beards and coffin dodgers"

Thanks, I was looking for a good name for a band we are setting up!

Hope there are some pubs left for us to play in...

What worries me is that whilst I don't know where Steamin' Willie Hardonn is coming from with his views, he does have one point. Audiences aren't getting any younger in general, despite some of the amazing younger talent on the professional circuit.

Dunno about the squirmingly embarrassing bit though. A mate gave me a tape of me playing at a club in 1980 recently, and I wasn't too impressed, despite taking myself more seriously then than now. (Didn't have a beard then either!)

Melodeonboy has it right. If you get out, you see more and may like what you see. Too right. some clubs are on my list to avoid in future, whilst I can't wait to go back to others.

There is no such thing as a "club" as there is no such thing as a "pub." The variety itself should be enough to keep people at least curious, and if you like the music, you are more than half way there to a great night out.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 09:39 AM

We all used to go folk clubs in the 1960's because we didn't want to stay at home and watch Rolf harris, Val Doonican and The Younger Generation

Born in 1961 I had little choice to stay home and watch Rolf Harris, Val Doonican and The Young Generation. In fact, it wasn't until 1976 that I made my first forays into folk clubs, aged 14, curiosity if not killing the cat then giving it a right good kicking; thus finding myself the youngest in the back room though by then I was already well equipped with the archive - going straight for the Trad. Jugular, the big ballads and the brutal old songs; the Lucy Wans and the McGintie's Meal an' Ales, leaving the Dylanesque guitar crooners & singer-songwriters to what I hoped would be a merciful extinction not too long in the coming. By 1976, the sixties were finally over & the game was well and truly afoot, and over the next few years I saw The Damned, The Ramones, Derek Bailey, Peter Bellamy, Jim Eldon, Evan Parker, The National Health, Rene Clemencic, The Watersons, Lol Coxhill, June Tabor, Sun Ra, John & Sue Kirkpatrick, Joy Division and The Fall, though not all of them in folk clubs I admit, but cultural life in the late seventies / early eighties was pretty cool.

Scroll on 33 years & at 47 I'm still the youngest in the Folk Club room, and still bored shitless by the Dylanesque guitar crooners & singer-songwriters who still think the answer's blowin' in the wind. I still sup from the unfailing blood of the Trad. Jugular - the real meat of folk, which, then as now, I regard as the pure essence of the thing; the Muckle Sangs and the real Traditional Singers, who were always more than fecking source singers for revivalists to plunder, as any self-respecting revivalist would admit. These days I take heart that anyone sings this stuff at all; these exacting enthusiasts and devotees so glibly dismissed as elitists purely because they are in a minority.

There's no point to this by the way, just an autobiographical note from a non baby-boomer Traddy for whom Traditional Song is but one small part of the cultural landscape, however so revived and exclusive that may be, and not without good reason. I often ponder why the folk-revival happened at all - and why it did nothing to encourage, engender or otherwise facilitate a second wave until comparatively recently. It is enough, however, that it happens at all, however so small a thing it might be, however so intimate, however so human, however so defined as much by context as it ever was by content, but there it is, big enough for me. Another 33 years down the line however... feck, now there's a sobering thought!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:00 AM

at 47 I'm still the youngest in the Folk Club room,

I wish I could contradict you, but I'm 48...

and still bored shitless by the Dylanesque guitar crooners & singer-songwriters

Amen to that.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

45. Same room (last week, anyway).

Put that in yer pipe, oh bearded one...

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:42 AM

43 (but 44 tomorrow!)..... don't mind a bit of a croon (as long as it sounds somewhat traditional).

We're starting to get a few more youngsters in at KFFC (2 teenagers, 3 x 20 somthings and a smattering of 30 somethings)..... they don't seem to mind the odd snigger/ snogwriter either. Balance, that's the thing!

Paul

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:46 AM

p.s. nobody seems squirmingly embarrassed (or squirmingly embarrassing) either.

"Weird beards and coffin dodgers"..... we actively encourage goths!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 02:46 PM

Now you're just making me feel old - I get enough of that of Rachel. Folk Clubs - the one place a 47-year-old bloke can go to feel that priceless sense of sparkling youthfulness - a veritable elixir so it is!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM

"43 (but 44 tomorrow!)....."
Happy birthday Paul
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:24 AM

Thanks Jim!

Going to the wife's gig at the (undead) Topic Folk Club in Bradford tonight to celebrate...... might even be allowed to provide a little banjo backing for a few songs as it's a special occasion!

Paul

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:36 AM

And a very fine little banjo it is too - have a lovely 44th!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:38 AM

Paul,

Happy Birthday!

Hope you use your present at tonights gig!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:53 AM

Paul,

I think you're maybe taking the goth thing a bit far if you're going to a folk club for the undead!

Happy birthday

Pete

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:54 AM

Thanks guys,

Touch and go about using my present (a superb new banjo strap made by GUEST,Cliff) as my banjos have been away having pick ups fitted and haven't re-appeared yet so I might be on a borrowed one.

Meanwhile, let's do something (CPR maybe?).....apparently the folk clubs are dying!

Paul

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 04:58 AM

Happy Birthday Paul. I did actually think of popping over to the Topic tonight, till I remembered I'm up your way in Darlington myself! Flash if you spot my van on the A1 :-) Tom

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:11 AM

"We're starting to get a few more youngsters in at KFFC (2 teenagers, 3 x 20 somthings and a smattering of 30 somethings)"

That made me laugh out loud! Can you be "30 something" AND "a youngster"? Just joining this board has taken a good decade off me.

Silliness apart. I'm sure there is an audience for traditional song amongst my peers and younger. Perhaps it's a case of there not being sufficient exposure outside of folk clubs? I've said it before, but I stumbled on trad. by accident. How many others are simply unaware like I was?

Now I've learned a little, I'll be taking traditional unaccompanied songs for Open Mic tents, to any (non-folk) Hippy Fest I go to this Summer. It'll be interesting to see what the experience will be like.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:18 AM

Rosie,

As with most people, anyone younger than me is youngster!!!

Trad unaccompanied (or accompanied) singing (yes we do some of it, amongst self penned but trad sounding stuff) goes down pretty well at "non-folk" venues in our experience..... but it has to be done very well, there isn't the "politeness" that you get in the folk world. If you're crap, you soon find out.

Go for it. I think you'll get a good reaction.

Paul

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:02 AM

That made me laugh out loud! Can you be "30 something" AND "a youngster"?

You are new round here!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:58 AM

"Happy Birthday Paul. I did actually think of popping over to the Topic tonight, till I remembered I'm up your way in Darlington myself! Flash if you spot my van on the A1 :-) Tom"

Cheers Tom hope your gig up here goes well. Do you mind if I wave rather than flash when we pass you on the A1?..... I'd rather not get arrested!

Banjos have turned up..... new strap is great!

Paul

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:42 AM

Glad you are pleased Paul.
Bit of a rush job 'cos of timing :-)
Best wishes to Wendy for tonights gig!

If everybody was as welcoming as Burneston Folk Club was to me last night, there would be no fear of clubs dying!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

Thanks Cliff,

Glad you enjoyed Burneston, it is a great singaround club. Sorry only one of us could get there but babysitting gets expensive if we both go to everything. Still, it meant you avoided the banjo!

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Aeola
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM

18 years ago I found folk music and have been enjoying it ever since, but then of course I was one of the over 50's, but strange thing is I look at other members and some of them will be like me in 18 years time. Like I have said ' some things never change!!'

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:15 PM

Happy birthday Paul!

May your banjo long continue to duel...

Spleen

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 06:02 PM

"Unplugged Undead" just has to be a name for an event, venue or band.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 05:25 AM

Hi Paul,

Someone wants a guitar strap but they stipulated I had to disinfect my hands after making a banjo strap:-)

Cliff (who loves the sound of a well-played banjo)

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:59 AM

Where do you find that?

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:22 AM

the answer was blowing in the wind.

the only reason your folk club was there in the first place was those despised dylan crooners. well done! you got rid of them,and all that generation who thought they might have something to say about their own lives. the truth and three chords.

I'm sorry you've found youself in an empty room biting into the jugular. Just at what point did you feel the jugular biting might pan out as an evening's entertainment.

derek Brimstone told me one time about a prominent traddy who was getting monster reviews from Karl Dallas and because melody maker in 69 had a readership of 4million plus a week the place would be packed for them - but the clubs that had been doing well up then for about five years, the week after, were empty. people felt they had been conned.

the traddy thing is a very specific taste. It provides some moments of exquisite music. But it has damn all to do with the generality of the English population - which ALWAYS has a folk music relecting the people on the street. the language and the culture of our nation is too vibrant for it to be otherwise.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: GUEST,Maggie in Marske
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Now then, who says Folk Clubs are dying? They are getting smaller than they were back then (in the 60's & 70's)but IMHO, they are still there, all you need to do is to seek them out. Now then, as to the standard presented - well, we all start somewhere. I agree that a good organiser will pick the best to do support sets on a guest night and if he/she doesn't then they should, but then sooner or later all the regulars should be encouraged to aspire to the best performance they can give, at all times.   Personally I was told at school that I was tone deaf (some might say I am) but what I learned in later life is that I have a somewhat limited range, and couldn't carry the tunes in the high "virgin voice" keys used in the High School!   Having found my range, I do feel I can put over a song if its played in the right key for me. Maybe that is something that more should experiment with. God gave us capo's for a reason!

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM

Al,
We listen to and promote the music we like, not what happens to be 'in'.
If it fails, it fails - tough, no reason to put on music that doesn't interest you - we're folk music enthusiasts, not ******* juke-boxes. The 'people on the street' listen to Amy Winehouse and Beyonce and all the other mind-numbers - shall we save our pennies to get them down to the clubs???
Dylan pissed off to follow the big money - and never pretended otherwise.
Maggie,
The clubs have shrunk to a minuscule size, the audiences have dwindled and the organisers are prepared to tolerate - nay, promote crap performances of a music that is no longer recognisable as folk music - sorry, if it were our cat I'd send for the vet.
Why not try singing unaccompanied, helps to concentrate the mind, and the pitch no end.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 11:20 AM

Jim's right - if you can crack singing unaccompanied, you'll have got the measure of it. Not for nothing do those hideous talent shows on the telly make the contestants sing unaccompanied - it's the best measure of voice quality there is. If you can train your voice to hold a note and to work comfortably in a range (even a limited range - just pick your material carefully) then you've won 90 per cent of the battle.
Would that every would-be singer bothered to work on his or her voice, so go for it, Maggie.

Subject: RE: Why folk clubs are dying
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:37 PM

I know that i can't sing unaccompanied - a few other people ought to realise that it is very difficult and jack it in.

i don't feel the need to sing standing up in a hammock either.