Reels, dots and hornpipes

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:31 AM

Yes, but how much emphasis do you put on the DUM? The notation doesn't really tell you. Some hornpipes are played with a very definite emphasis - Harvest Home is possibly one of them - but others may be played more smoothly. If a particular tune is to be played emphatically dotted, then by all means write it like that, but be aware that it may not the only way to play it. Even if it is to be played dotted, that can sound very plodding unless you give it a bit of swing, which the notation can't capture.

The point I'm trying to get across is that whether hornpipes are written dotted or undotted, the player has to decide for themselves how much emphasis or swing to give the tune. They can't get that from the dots, they can only get it from listening, or even better by dancing to a few.

To take a tune dear to my heart, Barry Callaghan's "Hardcore English" gives two versions of the Cliffe Hornpipe, one dotted and one undotted. The dotted version, played as written, sounds absolutely fine. But it is only one way to play the tune, and doesn't represent the way Bob Cann, for example, played it. In fairness, neither does the undotted version, played exactly as written. This is my point - once you've learned the notes from the dots you have to understand how to play those notes, and conventional music notation isn't up to it (unless you get very detailed, when it's almost impossible to read). The interpretation and understanding has to come from listening.

Cap'n, out of more than 50 hornpipes in "Hardcore English", only 5 are written dotted, and these are presumably those tunes such as "Kirkgate Hornpipe" which are intended to be played with a lot of emphasis. But I knew Barry well enough to know that he did not intend the others to be played exactly as written, with little or no emphasis - he would expect the player to understand how to interpret a hornpipe. And this goes for jigs and other rhythms too.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 11:40 AM

sorry,Howard.
Ihave to disagree with you,the way to write hornpipes is dot them, if thay are meant to be dotted in any way.,if they are supposed to be played even, write them undotted
Geoff Bowen,in his book Folk Fiddle,writes them dotted,then puts an explanation,above such as,play in triplet rhythm,
MattCranitch in his tutor writes them dotted,then puts an explanation,as to how they are nearer to two to one.
Geoff Bowen,also notates a strathspey,dotted and reverse dotted,but explains about the scottish snap,and the lengthening of the dotted notes.
good books give detailed explanations,bad books dont, often because the author is too lazy,or because the publisher wants to save time and money.
Geoff Bowen,notates a scottish tune Wife she brewed it,dotted,but gives notes such as this; this tune introduces another charecteristically Scottish feature.The unequal rhythm is exageratted by lengthening the dotted notesand shortening the semi quavers,.this produces a snap rhythm which is very precise,and which differs markedly from the more relaxed triplet ryhthym,the triplet rhythym reducesthe contrast betweenbetween dotted notes and semiquaver, whereas the snap ryhthm increases it.
this is what is required more information not less.
there is, just for a start, a marked contrast between Scottish styles of hornpipe playing and Irish,what is needed from books is more information like this not less,people buy books to get guidance,it is the authors responsibilty,to give detailed info on how he thinks the tunes should be played,preferably with a recording.
personally[and this is only my opinion]Ihave always found that for dancing,purposes the more heavily dotted hornpipes[yes nearer 3 to 1,than 2 to 1] more satisfactory for dances like Belfast Duck and Nottingham Swing,and for strathspeys,and much scotrtish dancing.
so we will have to agree to differ.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 01:41 PM

>From: Captain Birdseye - PM
>Stringsinger,I think the feel should be Scottish not Irish,and that the annotation should be >marked .
>oh yes, and most of the Irish reels are Scottish in origin.

I disagree that most Irish reels are Scottish and I suggest the opposite. Scotia was originally
a name for Ireland before Scotland. Many of these reels did not come from Scotland but earlier sources perhaps from the Gaelic culture in Spain.

I agree that the annotation should be marked for strathspeys. Hornpipes suggest
a 2/4 approach rather than the reel which is in cut-time in 4/4. It has to do with
the unit of phrasing.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM

Brendan Breathnach thought most older Irish reels were of Scottish origin, and Alois Fleischmann's book traces the Scottish (and often English) originals for most of them. By the twentieth century Ireland's reel industry reached the point of satisfying domestic demand. (For jigs, the story was more or less the other way round, as Irish jig farming seems to have been more intensive than in Britain).

No traditional tune known from either Scotland or Ireland can be shown to have any origin from a Celtic culture elsewhere.

Many tunes now played as strathspeys were originally published undotted. That was because they were played as reels at first and only strathspifficated decades later (example: Carraig's Reel, which became The Smith's a Gallant Fireman). You can't guess the exact dotting pattern of a strathspey so it has to be put in explicitly.

An anomalous one: John of Badenyon. The 18th century sources for that all give it a systematic hornpipe-like dotted rhythm. But it wasn't a hornpipe, it was a slowish song. It's most often played these days as a reel (a Cape Breton "wedding reel"), very fast and with no dotting. If it ever had a hornpipe stage in its evolution (fast-ish and dotted) there's no trace of it.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:20 PM

"Many of these reels did not come from Scotland but earlier sources perhaps from the Gaelic culture in Spain."

Roughly when would that be then?

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:44 PM

Stringsinger,I quote from 1001 oneills.the earliest mention of the reel as A DANCE is found in news from Scotland printed in 1598.
miss mcleods reel is one, the high reel, kate dalrymple,and virtually all the reels that use the mixolydian mode ,flattened 7,[are scottish in origin, or came to Ireland via Scotland]that is the scottish bagpipe scale,these pipes were being played before the uillean pipes were invented.
If they are Spanish,please provide proof,perhaps is not good enough.
O neill suggests they come from clan marches,which makes them as Scottish as they are Irish.
you might be right,in as far as it is possible that gallic pipes were around before Irish and scottish pipes,but there are suggestions that the scottish Bagpipes have been in existence for 1400 years.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:40 PM

"but there are suggestions that the scottish Bagpipes have been in existence for 1400 years. "

Who suggested that then?

Haven't most agricultural communities with sheep and such had bagpipes for quite a while now?

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 08:29 AM

Les,someone on the internet.[possibly Wikapeadia]
Haven't most agricultural communities with sheep and such had bagpipes for quite a while now?

Check out history of Scottish bagpipes,you will find they have been around alot longer than the Uillean pipes.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 09:42 AM

Check out history of Scottish bagpipes,you will find they have been around a lot longer than the Uillean pipes.

I am sure you are correct on this. I started a thread years ago when I realised that the Uillean pipes need a fair degree of technology, ie post Industrial Revolution type technology, to make a set. I guess I could dig it out at a push.

The Uillean pipes are pretty modern. I have little doubt that simple blown bagpipes go back a long way. A sheep or goat's stomach and various wooden pipes would get a pretty good bag pipe in the right hands.

Belows blown seem a good bit more complicated and Highland Pipes perhaps fall between the two. I don't know why I am rambling on it will all be known and available through Google.

Although their is clearly a connection between Ireland Scotland, Brittany, Spain, various celtic languages, bagpipes and tunes lots of people who join in the 'discussions' have a confused grasp of time scales and events.

I have just read about half of 'The Origins of the British by Stephen Oppenheimer'. It's academic but readable. It's mostly concerned with language and genes but it gives a good account of who got here when and how they moved about. This kind of background makes it easy to test ideas about tunes and so on.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: pavane
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:16 AM

Bagpipes were also used in the Middle East and Asia centuries ago.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:58 AM

Oh dear, Grattan Flood has a lot to answer for. The fact is, we know very little about who played what bagpipes and when. Even GBH pipes from 300 years ago were a very different beast from their current configuration.

Howard Jones, how much emphasis to put on the DUM? The right amount of course. That's the whole point, the emphasis is somewhere between none and a dotted note, and varies according to your instrument, your taste, and the tune. The same happens with reels, particularly slow ones. When does a slow reel become a mildly emphasised hornpipe I wonder?

Where I have to disagree with Dick is about the notation- always dotting it becomes simply visually boring after a while. Some tunes, the ones that really want the dot, should be dotted, but most don't need it.

Spain? How did the tunes get to Spain? I think it was Aztecs in reed boats that they copied from the Egyptians, who brought tunes they had been taught by balsa- rafting Polynesians, who had been taught them by lost tribes of Jews.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: treewind
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:16 AM

Dick: "the way to write hornpipes is dot them, if they are meant to be dotted in any way. If they are supposed to be played even, write them undotted"

It's not the job of the transcriber to dictate how they should be played. In some tunes both interpretations make musical sense, and when transcribing from an old manuscript written in straight quavers one can't be sure of the original writer's intentions.

Howard: I wonder if the dotted notation in Barry's book is simply because that's how they were supplied. As I'm sure you know, Hardcore English was a collaborative effort where many musicians sent in ABC from different sources or their own transcriptions. No doubt Barry and Johnny (and others, for all I know) did some editing and proof reading but I don't think there was a clear policy on hornpipe notation.

Talking of Bob Cann, listen to the way he plays that version of The Cliff. It's a superb example of how to play an English hornpipe in a style that really is neither one thing nor the other. You really have to listen to it to understand how to play it. You can hear that same style unmistakably in the playing of Mark Bazeley and Jason Rice, and imitate it at your peril, but here's no way on earth you can bottle it in musical notation.

I've noticed, though, that Mark, when playing that tune for step dancing, has a more dotted style to it than Bob's recorded version.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:40 AM

Dick, I'm not arguing for or against writing hornpipes with dots, my point is that however you write them, the notation cannot get across exactly how much emphasis to give. If the authors you quote have to give so much additional information, then clearly the notation alone is inadequate.

The point I am making, which I would have expected you to agree with, is that while the notation may give you the notes to play, to understand how to play them you have to immerse yourself in the music, and the only way to do this is by listening to it.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 08:02 AM

Dick - the purpose of musical notation today may be to give the tune as accurately as possible. But you can't extrapolate from that this is what happened in the past. In actual fact that was NOT always the case: certainly in the Baroque period the rhythmic value of dotted notes was more approximate than it is today and could vary according to a number of performing conventions or expressive considerations. And it was NOT given in the score. What are now known as 'notes inégales' were never expressly indicated in notation - we only know about the style because it is mentioned in early music tutors.

Many notational rules were simply a matter of convention - the performer of the time was expected to read it according to the rules of the tradition of the times. Hence old manuscripts may not have dotted hornpipes, but it may have been the intention to play them that way.

So whatever you do now, be aware of the conventions of the past if you're trying to interpret old manuscripts.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 12:57 PM

Howard,yes musical immersion is a good idea,However I prefer to immerse,myself in the scottish style of hornpipe playing,rather than the Irish,which is difficult because I live in Ireland,and when playing in sessions,have to go with the flow.
my favourite fiddle player is Angus Grant[the left hander with the tassle]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADyHCb8q7eM

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA
now this in my opinion is nearer to 3 to 0ne, than two to one,and is perfect for dancing,a great example of how hornpipes should be played for solo dancing,unfortunately 45 years later there are not many people who can play this well for dancing.,because so many of the knowalls who attend irish sessions,have never played for dancing and its clearly ev ident in their playing,and then we have the idiot bozooki players who thrash away regardless.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 02:36 PM

"Many of these reels did not come from Scotland but earlier sources perhaps from the Gaelic culture in Spain."

"Roughly when would that be then?"

Since much of this material was handed down aurally there is no written record, Brendan Breathnach notwithstanding although I honor his scholarship. Printed material can't be the final source for the origination of any tune in the aural tradition. It is reasonable to assume that the Irish culture does stem from the Galicia area of Spain and from ancient Celtic cultures as well. The problem with folk music generally is that the original sources cited for music generally comes from print and dated accordingly. This is not necessarily the definitive starting point for this music.

"No traditional tune known from either Scotland or Ireland can be shown to have any origin from a Celtic culture elsewhere. "

Not if you only rely on published or printed sources to make this claim. But logic suggests that these tunes are a lot older and must have been transmitted from other
cultures. The problem for folk music academicians is to establish their precedence of music based on published or annotated accounts. This is inconclusive when it comes
to origins of any kind of music.

I submit that a Scottish bias occurs here in relationship to Irish music. The idea of Scottish culture is sketchy in and of itself. The so-called "clans" are of comparatively recent origin as they have become standardized by such groups as the Royal Scottish Society.

I believe that in order to annotate Strathspeys you have to use a sixteenth note followed by a dotted eighth to indicate the "snap" that is required. Otherwise you'd have to make the case that annotation should be abandoned entirely as a means of conveying musical information about reels, jigs, straths etc. Precise annotation will not work for most music anyway but you can come close.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 05:45 PM

Interesting Frank.

"It is reasonable to assume that the Irish culture does stem from the Galicia area of Spain and from ancient Celtic cultures as well."

When did this happen then? Roughly?

"But logic suggests that these tunes are a lot older and must have been transmitted from other
cultures."

Any actual evidence of any kind then?

I've had good advice on "Reels, dots and hornpipes" so thanks again

L in C

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 08:36 PM

The problem with folk music generally is that the original sources cited for music generally comes from print and dated accordingly. This is not necessarily the definitive starting point for this music.

In some cases (a hell of a lot of them) it certainly is. Tunes like the "Irish" reel "The Musical Priest", which is a straightened-out version of a strathspey composed by William Marshall and published by him in 2 different keys and under 3 different titles about 100 years before we have any evidence that anyone in Ireland played it. For a dead cert that was written in 1780-1. If it had existed any earlier, one of Scotland's innumerable transcribers of any interesting tune going would have got hold of it. Those guys were *thorough*. And we know exactly how the sheet music market worked - it only functioned at all because the punters could count on the publishers to come out with new stuff. The selling point was always "here's something you haven't heard before". When somebody tried to palm off an old tune as something new, it wasn't long before they got picked up on it (none too politely).

We have a pretty good idea how the dance culture in Ireland developed, even for times and places where we have no actual tune or dance transcriptions. What would they have DONE with thousands of reels at a time when nobody danced to them and there were no instruments in wide use that could have played them? You might as well argue that the ancient Spanish Celts developed the printed circuit diagrams for modern microprocessors 400 years before anybody could make them.

There are lots of tunes known in Spanish tradition back to the Middle Ages, like the 200 Galician songs in the Cantigas de Santa Maria. Not a one of them bears any detectable resemblance to any tune from the British Isles. Comparative methodologies DO produce resemblances over far spans of time and space in other cultures, like Kodaly's comparison of Hungarian folk tunes with those of the Mari and other Uralic peoples in west-central Asia. The result of such efforts in the "Celtic" world is a big fat zero. There is no unified Celtic musical culture and never has been.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:35 AM

thanks Jack,do you have the name of the strathspey of Marshalls, and musical notation,eventually I might get round to learning it.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 08:04 AM

"Miss Watson" or "The North Bridge of Edinburgh" in B minor. "Miss Watson" seems to have come first, it was published in a separate sheet before Marshall's first book

"Belhelvie House" in C minor.

It's usually known as "The North Bridge of Edinburgh", since that's what the Gows called it when they reprinted it.

Subject: RE: Reels, dots and hornpipes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM

I go to a monthly workshop in Rainford Lancs. which focuses on playing for dancing.
I would suspect that it doesn't matter what Les starts out doing with his tune book, people will end up contributing a variety of tunes, from a variety of sources and there will not be a standardised way of notating.

The other oddity when writing music is that the lead note is sometimes played in the repeat and this may make the last bar 'wrong'. E.g. you may have to hold the last note for a different length of time when going from B1 to B2 / B2 back to A / B2 and out. A trained musician would notate it with complicated 1s and 2s (over the last bars), someone who plays by ear would get it right. Those of us in between follow the dots then trip over when 'eyes' and 'ear' tell us something different. Until we know the tune.