My lyrics on peoples cds

Subject: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:32 AM

I am real happy that someone thinks my lyrics are good enough to use on their cds.
A performer who plays about 340 gigs a year around uk,europe and the USA.
They asked and I said yes, no arguement with them at all.
I sent some I had already and even wrote some to suit.
Several freinds and aquaintances are of the opinion that I should be in receipt of money for this.
It never really was part of reason for doing this,but for future reference,
I have tried to find out online and find the whole thing totally confusing.
I wondered if any of you wise and wonderful catters have any experience that you could pass on re this subject.
I would like to stress I dont feel that I have been ill used in any way and willingly carry on sending any thing I think may be suitable.
anyhow
Happy new year to one and all.

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM

Are you UK or USA?

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:42 AM

Tim, if you've copyrighted the songs, and your name/publishing company appears on the CD, then - in theory - you're entitled to some cash back from the CD sales.

If you've let the performer use it for their CD - then it's a gentleman's agreement as to what you gain from it.

In future, if you feel you want some remuneration, then copyright the material and assign it to a publishing company (Your own will do). When future CDs appear with your material on it, then you'll be entitled to a share of the sales. It's all down to what you really want.

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Crane Driver
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Never mind what 'friends and acquaintances' say - be clear what you want from your songs. Remember, money is not the only currency. I too feel that having a song of mine recorded by a respected performer is worth a lot in its own right, adding money to the payment is rarely necessary. Especially as the typical royalty rate is, I believe, measured in pence per CD sold - and very few folk CDs sell that many copies. I'm usually happy to be credited for the song, and to receive a copy of the CD. Perhaps it's down to the various 'Pop Idol' type shows on telly, but many people do seem to think that the be all and end all of music is to make money. If you do want a financial return, then assuming that, like me, you're not a member of a royalty-collecting organisation (it would cost more per year than I'm likely to make) any deal will have to be agreed with the performer beforehand. We have recorded a few songs by other people, where permission has been given either free of charge or in return for a donation to charity, but if we had to start filling out MCCP/PRS forms for a song, we probably wouldn't record it in the first place.

Congratulations on getting your songs recorded.

Andrew McKay
Crane Drivin' Music

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

You don't have to do anyting to cause copyright to arise. It arises automatically upon first reduction to material form. So in my view the verb "to copyright" is a solecism.

Of course, proving the existence and ownership of copyright may be another matter.

I suggest you make enquiries of the MCPS and PRS if you are in the UK. They are usually very helpful.

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:23 PM

I have to say I did not find PRS at all helpful as they were only interested in how much air time I had. As a littley known singer songwriter very far short of the 100 hrs they were talking about. I doubt many folksingers get that. MCPS are helpful if you are recording your own work . I tend to agree with Andrew though, as long as someone credits me if they perform or wanted to recoord my songs I would be more than happy with that. Folk music for me is a matter of love rather than money as I think it most likely is for all but the very few
Ann Reader

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:36 PM

Thanks folks

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:12 PM

The general rule that I was taught is that the royalties are set at about 8¢/1000 CD copies (in the States). When in doubt I and my band members prefer to pay that rate directly to the composer rather than run the risk of a misunderstanding. We also send two copies of the CD to the composer. Sometimes we do donate an equivalent amount to their favorite charity.

One should make every effort to credit composers of lyrics and/or music as clearly as possible. The source of what we're singing is an essential part of the folk process.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: DebC
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 03:50 PM

What Charley said...not to mention that it's the RIGHT thing to do. Songs should be researched meticulously to make sure that the writers-composers are known and credited and that the correct permissions and licenses put in place. A wee correction to Charley's rate quote-the US rate (as set by Harry Fox) is now 9.1 cent per each song 4 minutes and under. That gets multiplied by the number of units you manufacture. Again this is for US licenses.

The UK is whole 'nother cuppa.

Since I am not a writer, I have had to learn about all of this stuff, and it can get fairly complicated. Like Roll 'n Go, I prefer to deal with the writer directly and most of my mechanical licenses have been obtained that way. I did, however, have to go the HF route for three songs from my new album.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Tangledwood
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM

A cautionary tale - I heard that an Australian female writer, who is now very well known, was approached by a publishing company who wished to include one of her earliest compostions in a compilation. Flattered, she agreed. What she didn't realise was that in the terms she signed over royalties to that company and then had to pay them to sing her own song.

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:47 PM

Debra-

Thanks for the clarification on the rate. We will keep that in mind and it's still a bargain for making use of someone's creative effort.

Anyone want to lobby for 10¢/1000 CD's?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:32 PM

I guess we all understand what Charley means - that's 9.1 cents per copy, in lots of 1,000 copies - or $91 for 1,000 copies.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:33 PM

Had another look at prs and still cant get my head around it.
It seems like it is saying the venues pay a lump sum up front then that is payed out to writers if and when there is proof that thre materiel was performed at particular venue.
Oh and they want money too.
Gonna change me name to anon by deed pol I reckon.

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: GUEST,Maggie in Marske
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:21 PM

Hey Tim, getting your name and work known and recognized is a good start. I think your material is superb (you know that) and if my guitar playing was half-way decent I'd love to cover a few of them in my own way, still struggling with that F-ing chord! But do make sure you have them covered copyright-wise, we have talked about that one!!

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: pavane
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:15 AM

Tim,
You might be getting two things mixed up.

1. Performance rights
i.e. concerts, Radio plays, etc

2. Recording rights.
CD's and similar.

Here in the UK, PRS (Performing Rights Society) deals with PERFORMANCE, and MCPS (Mechanical Copyright Protection Society) deals with RECORDINGS.

In both cases, they collect the fees and dish them out to their members (ONLY).

MCPS usually quotes a rate per CD to the originator, in return for which you can put the MCPS logo on your CD or insert. (The letters MCPS in a rectangular box)

Subject: RE: My lyrics on peoples cds
From: Hamish
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:56 AM

I'm confused. I thought that you had to apply for a MCPS licence if you recorded pretty much anything written by someone else. [Looks up the PRS site] Ahah! It says:

"The Limited Manufacture (LM) Licence is an affordable, easy to buy and simple solution for customers wishing to produce small scale audio and audio-visual physical products (e.g. CDs, DVDs and CD-ROMs). It is aimed at customers like schools, churches, amateur groups and private users who wish to use music in their own productions.

"The LM licence covers the recording of MCPS members' music onto audio and audio-visual productions."

So there you are. Looks like Andrew and co above are right: if the writer isn't a member of MCPS/PRS then you might not need one of their licences and it's then up to the two parties top make whatever private arrangement suits: such as a free CD or donation to charity.

I'm not clear that a member can opt out, however.

--
Hamish