Morris joins the Dodo?

Subject: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: s&r
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:38 AM

Just seen this. Quite disturbing.

'The Morris Ring, which represents 200 Morris troupes across Britain says the number of dancers is dwindling while their age is increasing.

Charlie Corcoran, Bagman of the Morris Ring, told the Daily Telegraph: "There's a distinct possibility that in 20 years' time there will be nobody left.

"It worries me a great deal. Young people are just too embarrassed to take part.

"This is a serious situation. The average age of Morris dancing sides is getting older and older. Once we've lost this part of our culture it will be almost impossible to revive it."

The Morris Ring is hoping a winter recruitment drive could attract some new younger members in time for the spring when most troupes perform the dances they have been practising.

Paul Reece, chairman of the Advisory Council of the Morris Ring, said: "There is still time for new blood to get ready for the Spring fertility offensive.

"But there is a serious danger that, in less than a few decades, Morris dancing will be confined to the history books."'

Stu

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:40 AM

It would be interesting to hear from the Morris Federation whether their affiliated sides are experiencing the same thing.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 07:46 AM

There was a short item a few minutes ago on R4 and I have alerted the Fed's secretary.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM

Are they really worried that Morris dancing is dying out, or just that the Morris Ring may not survive?

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM

"the Spring fertility offensive"

Still hanging on to that discredited old idea and the "woman never did Morris" or have I missed something.

It's hard to see how, with so much stuff recorded in every conceivable format that anything currently known will be lost. As somebody or other pointed out, one of the biggest traditions in Morris is collapse and revival.

Now why can't I get these clogs on?

L in C

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:37 AM

Admittedly not to everybody's taste but mixed teams with a "family orientation" are thriving and many have young members. Even teams where the dancers are of one gender but have mixed gender bands (some of them very good indeed) attract families and younger people.

The Ring can't have it both ways. I understand their new Squire has been persuaded to abandon his aim of allowing teams with female musicians to attend Ring meetings. What hope for the Ring to enter even the twentieth century and make things interesting for young people when they maintain such an attitude and the fun and camaraderie offered by non-ring sides is more attractive? And this is so disappointing after all the good work done by recent Ring Squires to bring the Morris world together.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: breezy
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

who wants to drink, sing and

sex drugs and rock n roll

nah sounds boring

ban it and it'll make a come back, dont let the kids in

its for a descerning few only

who still have knees

it requires teamwork

its not for everyone

do not put it on the national curriculum

we did a course at college, 50 male students had a great time, knocking shit out of each other,got my revenge on the big fella who fouled me on the soccer field, I think I would get a red card earlyon if I returned.

teams should involve their audiences more by giving em bells , hankies and dragging em screaming into a formation, just like the generation game.

Some morris men do 'up their own' at times.

Great to see teams with a chillout approach

University teams should compete for a national trophy.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:59 AM

Third story down - Sheffield City Morris

We have had women musicians for years, danced with female sides etc etc.

Two young recruits (which we have) aint enough.

And I agree with Ruth - some dance teams and other forms of ritual dance are flourishing. Biggest turn out at Grenoside for years this year.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:15 AM

Personally, I don't care for The Ring's sexist attitude, BUT they are preserving the dance in an un-watered down tradition which is to be applauded.
I dont believe they will go under.
That sort of comment (that the tradition is dying out) has been spoken of since Elizabethan times :-)

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

similar article in the Daily Mail;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1105426/Morris-dancing-extinct-young-people-embarrassed-part.html

Morris dancing could be 'extinct' within 20 years because young people are too embarrassed to take part, Morris dancers have warned.
The numbers of people participating in the traditional British folk dance are dwindling whilst the age of the dancers is increasing, according to the Morris Ring, an association representing over 200 Morris troupes across Britain.

It is warning that 'unless younger blood is recruited during the coming winter months, Morris dancing will soon become extinct'.
Charlie Corcoran, Bagman of the Morris Ring, said: 'There's a distinct possibility that in 20 years' time there will be nobody left.

'It worries me a great deal. Young people are just too embarrassed to take part.

'This is a serious situation. The average age of Morris dancing sides is getting older and older. Once we've lost this part of our culture it will be almost impossible to revive it.'
The Morris Ring is hoping a winter recruitment drive could attract some new younger members in time for the spring when most troupes perform the dances they have been practising.
Paul Reece, chairman of the Advisory Council of the Morris Ring, said: 'There is still time for new blood to get ready for the Spring fertility offensive.

'Such customs and activities were once a common sight around the country. Today they are carried out by an ever-dwindling stalwart band of enthusiasts who are determined to keep them alive.
'But there is a serious danger that, in less than a few decades, Morris dancing will be consigned to the history books.'

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

"un-watered down tradition"

or a living tradition that has survived and evolved?

Cheers
L in C

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,Ed Worrall
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:49 AM

Got it in one Dead Horse, the one thing you see from source material is the complaint that youngsters don't want to take part (circa 1890's et al!). Well, Morris aint dead yet and wont be for some time to come, whatever your take on it.

As long as people enjoy doing it, it'll survive. The moment it becomes a strict re-enactment or 'heritage' show, it's days are numbered. However, I have full faith in the benign anarchy of the Morris world in all it's forms!

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: nickp
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

Got a reasonably long mention on the BBC One lunchtime news.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:03 AM

Messers Corcoran and Reece have obviously written their artcle, and either printed off several copies and sent them or emailed them to newspapers and newsrooms, so that almost identical 'news' items are coming out together.
Is there a shortage of other news today?

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:06 AM

Why would young men want to join something in which they have little chance of meeting young like minded women... they might as well join the masons !
There are young morris dancers but they more often choose to join mixed sides.. Furthermore, the fantastic young men who do belong to ring sides will probably leave when they have girlfriends who are not welcome to share their weekends away.
Presumably the officers of the Morris Ring are more obsessed with the principle of tradition than the perpetuance of morris dancing as wonderful and enjoyable hobby...In my opinion, a load of old blokes hobbling around does nothing to enhance the tradition. Young people of either gender, with springs in their heels, does.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,Cath
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:15 AM

I find this difficult to believe - we have so many teams turning out for the festival in Holmfirth that you can hardly move for them.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Compton
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:23 AM

I bet you Cath...that most of the sides at Holmfirth will be "Mixed" or Ladies....The pure form of "Men only" dancing is indeed on the demise...and has been for some ten or fifteen years!!

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: jonm
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

How quickly this thread can change from a genuine problem to Ring-bashing.

While there is a misogynist element in the Ring, there are many teams who welcome female musicians and hangers-on and many members of Ring clubs also perform with mixed/Fed outfits. That's me on two counts.

I've been dancing 30+ years and unfortunately I do find that I am still one of the youngest members at many events, apart from my lad, who now dances (higher and better than I do).

The source material is so well documented these days and there is plenty of visual evidence in the Ring archive and on YouTube so it will not die out, although I can see the morris becoming much more exclusive as older men give up.

Looking at the standard of some teams at recent events, I do feel that that might not be a bad idea!

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: nickp
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:40 AM

The TV news article was tilted at getting Morris (danced by whoever/whatever) in the Olympic opening ceremony. The response apparently was that nothing has been ruled in or out yet.

Can of worms time... you'd have to include traditional clog dancing and then, as there's around 60 UK teams, how about Appalchian clogging too...

No, lets ignore that last comment, I jest!

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:45 AM

"
While there is a misogynist element in the Ring"

No surely not.........

L in C

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:47 AM

I don't have anything agains the Ring, actually. As someone said, they preserve one very important aspect of the tradition and all power to their collective elbow. But it and the Morris Federation exist side by side, and I believe that the Fed has more affiliated sides these days (am I right?). To gain an accurate picture of the state of morris dancing, the Fed's statistics are really needed. I suspect a lot of younger members belong to Fed-associated sides, but maybe I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 10:51 AM

Wasn't the Malt Shovel in Dartford WHOLLY swamped with people of the morris, on New Year's day?

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:13 AM

Yup, we had to start a new venue because the Green Man at Hodsoll Street gets so packed with dancers and spectators. Admittedly most of these are Federation sides
However Hartley's Boxing Day stands were jam packed with enthusiastic dancers and spectators and they are "Ring"... I wouldn't like to comment on the age or agility of the dancers as I might get into trouble with my old man who's one of them !

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,Motley Muso - Lisa
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:13 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to be anonymous

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:33 AM

There's going to be an interview with the Ring Bagman on Radio 4 sometime between 5.0 p.m. and 6 o'clock.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:43 AM

There are a lot of "Ring" sides who quite happily dance out with women's and mixed sides and some have female musicians. But these sides tend not to be particularly active in "Ring politics" (with one or two notable exceptions)or attend ring meetings etc so there do seem to be some mixed messages here.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: romany man
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

the ring as said does preserve the old way and yes good on em but today things have to evolve as well, the motley dartford bash was well attended and of course many mixed sides turned up. as for young men not being able to meet young women at morris venues, perhaps some one is going about it all wrong, i know of loads of couples who met through morris dancing but they are all in the fed.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: banjoman
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:58 AM

My wife told me to reply to this one - she has been dancing Morris in a mixed side (NW Clog) for many years and I was a musician for the same side till they drowned my banjo out with a base drum. The point she is making is that women have danced morris for many many years and its about time the ring got their collective finger out and accepted that fact. Morris never was and never will be a men only thing. The tradition would never have survived without women taking on the dancing - especially in times of war - so lets have a bit of realism in the ring. Perhaps the "Ring" is aptly named as it just goes round and round and never changes. Tradition is a living thing and must evolve to survive.

ps. I agree with all that she who must be obeyed has told me to write

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM

So do I

L in C

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: LesB
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

I feel that the approach to the press was perhaps a little ill conceived.
Instead of presenting a 'hands up' defeatist attitude & giving the press plenty of chance to dust off their pre conceptions of the Morris & give the news presenters a chance to have a patronising snigger, maybe they should have presented the press with images & a story about the younger, exciting & vigerous aspect of ritual dance that we have. Then go on to say that this is a good start, but if we don't want it to die out we need more youngsters involved.
Present the positive.
The positives being cotswold teams like Pesceason, White/Dog Rose, Moulton (2younger teams) & many others . The numerous Rapper sides & the work of Damien Barber & The Roadshow, & the crowd pleasers such as the good border sides.
Lets not give them chance to snigger, lets wipe the smiles off their faces.
Cheers
Les (creaking old sword dancer)

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:22 PM

Well. As Morris Offspring's been taken on by Alan Bearman's supersonic agency and Jim Moray dances with Bristol Morris, I think it's in pretty damn good shape. I understand that the Ring's Bagman is due on R4 PM any minute. I shall listen with interest.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:41 PM

just started

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 12:47 PM

I thought that there are supposed to be more Morris dancers now than there has ever been? It certainly seemed like it last time I went to Straw Bear in Whittlesey.

These 'traditions are dying out' threads always seem to follow the same lines:

1. Tradition X is dying out!

2. Tradition X must attract more young people!

3. Tradition X must be changed in order to make it more acceptable to young people!

Trouble is, if you change it it's not Tradition X any more, is it?                                                                  

It seems to me that the long-term survival of a particular tradition is not, primarily, the responsibility of its current practioners. Their responsibility is to carry on the tradition for as long as possible. The responsibility for long term survival of the tradition falls on to the shoulders of the young people. If they fail to take up the tradition, for whatever reason, then it is, surely, their loss?

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:08 PM

Tish, tish...Phillipa mentioned 'The Daily Mail'.... Um!! :0) LOL
How strange that the usual suspects haven't picked her up for it. ??? I expect it's all part of a 'Daily Mail Plot' to create panic amongst the English about a problem which isn't there at all.

'Course, what they need is to stop dressing up in straw hats, flowers and hankies and that's just the men, and get a little..er..funky. Bring in the pirates, sprinkle them with a bit of sexiness and swoonability factor..and who knows, maybe the young men will return to the ranks, chased in their by their Maidens Fair.

Alternatively, someone send for John Kirkpatrick and his gorgeous Shropshire Bedlamas *immmmmediately*!!

Yes, yes! They'll save the day! Heck, but they're a sexy bunch of lads if ever there was one...and they've not a hankie to be seen amongst 'em, just very big sticks, with which they do some very illuminating things.

Oooooh, Matron! ;0)

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

"The point she is making is that women have danced morris for many many years and its about time the ring got their collective finger out and accepted that fact."

To be honest, I'm not sure they need to. If the Federation didn't exist this would be a valid point, but it does, so morris dancers of all persuasions are able to be represented by either the Ring or the Federation. It's a broad church.

The thing I think was a bit of a mistake was for the Ring to speak out for all of morris, as there is a substantial body of sides whom it does not represent. IMHO, those kinds of statements could perhaps be made jointly by both the Federation and the Ring.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:27 PM

"un-watered down tradition"

These are the sides who won't watch Bampton because Bampton don't follow Sharp's notation of their dances.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

I wonder if JK will mind having rumours spread about sleeping with Llamas !
Agreeing to be interviewed in conjunction with the Dance Mag guy shows a distinct naevety or lack of judgement. Hearing the interview would further re-inforce peoples ideas of morris as a bit of a joke.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Proogle
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:44 PM

As Someone on the Daily Mail article mentioned...Come to Straw Bear. Witness with your own eyes that more and more young people are becoming interested and are already dancing. I have been with my side 16 years. Im 18.
I guess when you are my age though and you are part of the folk/morris thing, you notice the other young people more than you would if you were not.
We have done so much to attract young people and twice have we had a very large influx of them in recent years. A majority of them have stayed.
A lot more young people are more open minded now too. And they will look to joining Morris Uni sides as a bit of exercise and then when they finish their courses go on to look at sides in their area.
Well im young. I love morris. Im in a Fed side.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:25 PM

10pm Today BBC National News (Hopefully) Kim Woodward in the company of the Year 5 Children of Staple Hill Primary School, Sth Glos presents a different viewpoint to the apparently old press release of the Ring Bagman Charlie Corcoran.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: jonm
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:02 PM

There are fewer young people in the morris now than there were when I was in my teens and twenties. They are now concentrated in mixed teams in the main, hence the Ring's problem being more severe than the Fed's.

The "bump" in average age has definitely moved upwards in the last 30 years since I started dancing. My guess is that in the Ring it has moved up by 30, in mixed teams by probably more than 15.

A lot of the younger dancers are members of a variety of teams, as I was back then (and still am, both Ring and Fed) so they turn up more often. They also tend to be more Internet literate.

If I think back to the two teams I was a regular with on leaving university 20 years ago, I was their youngest member then and would still be now! The same is pretty much true of the teams I dance with now, give or take my lad, who's 12.

My view is that single-sex morris is dying faster than mixed, however, it would be unwise not to recognise the Ring as the upholder of a lot of the tradition and history of the morris in terms of its archive material and membership of long-lived clubs.

Morris is long overdue for a cull, though. Too many sides who perform poorly. My generalisation would be that poor performance from a male team takes the form of too many beerguts and too little altitude; there are also a large number of mixed teams who regard a shoddy attitude to the quality of the dancing and their treatment of the audience as the norm.

Not having seen the segment yet, I shall be disappointed if the BBC regard one primary teacher with a class of nine-year-olds as a balanced argument for the future of the morris being secure, though.

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM

Something that strikes me is that I've met quite a few men who have taken up Morris later in life - so why is there any kind of assumption that if they don't join as youngsters they won't be dancing later?

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

Should have added "and women too" to the first half of my first sentence!

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: LesB
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:08 PM

I do hope the BBC news item from a primary school is not of the 'cheer leader' type of morris. What we need is to talk to some 'teen & twenty' active dancers.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: skipy
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:37 PM

Utter bollox! see Icknield Way Morris Men of which my son is a member, they can field a full youth side with reserves & musicians!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:14 PM

Could the general downward trend in national population have anything to do with the lack of morris dancing men?

Just a thought... niaive of me I know... but I'm a simple soul at heart.

LTS

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: GUEST,peterr
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

Sadly, too many beerguts and not enough altitude is exactly true and I speak as one who has been dancing (or trying to ) for about 40 years. When I started, lots of young dancers, and lots of singing. And now lots of us are the archetypal ageing folk singer/dancer.
When I see young dancers, it's great!
But ( I paraphrase as I can't find the article ) 'The Irish, Welsh and Scots are justifiably proud of their heritage of traditional music, song and dance. The English, however, are rather embarrassed by theirs.' The original article was written before WW1, and what has changed?

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Kev The Clogs
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM

HHmmmmm. Interesting!

I seem to recall that I posted a thread HERE in the middle of last year, that related to Morris numbers, attracting new blood etc. (Some very good comments and suggestions).

HOWEVER!!! As important as this is - most of the contributors to this thread so far, have missed the point of the original article/item, and that is, here we go - DO we have some form of Morris representation in the Opening/Closing ceremonies of the 20012 Olympics??? DO we stand up and say that we are proud to be carry on a tradition????? DO we stand tall with the traditions that other contries take for granted???? OR, OR, OR!!!!!! Do we just bitch about who is right or wrong/will we survive or not/Ring or Federation - "Who's The Daddy??"

The newscaster on the One O'clock News obviously found it highy funny. We need respect from the public. To get to that stage, we need to get respect for each other's chosen type of dancing from eack other FIRST!!!!

Can we please not get bogged down? Can we please try and help each other/each side/whatever, to get a slot in the games that we can be/and bloody well should be, PROUD OF!!!!

Kev The Clogs
(Northwest Clogs and Longsword)

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:29 AM

Strictly Come Morris Dancing?

Celebrity guests...and off yer go...Morris Dancing becomes 'the new black'

OR..you could try a little bit of Bryony, a little bit of Eliza, a little bit of Jools Holland and

a few Dog Rose petals...

:0)

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:45 AM

Hey, 'Strictly Come Rapper Dancing' is already here!

Subject: RE: Morris joins the Dodo?
From: nickp
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM

BBC web news article