BBC Folk Awards 2009

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:48 AM

It is deliberately hidden so that people don't apply, but Ian Anderson (bless him) spread the word wider than they intended, so they have had all sorts of what they regard as nuisance applications.

The Smoothies general pretend contact address is on their website, but previous experience is that they just ignore anything from the public. That they have all suposedly been put through the BBC's creating trust (or whatever it is called) programme makes it even sadder.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:21 AM

Where do I apply to get on the panel? I can't see it on the Smooth Ops site?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:06 AM

That complainer was me.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM

The Trustees are probably much more twitchy to what independent producers are doing in the BBC's name now. If you read the report into the Brand-Ross debacle, time and time again it comes through that the Radio 2 Controller had no real control over what that particular independent producer was doing. It was implied that the situation might not be confined to just Vanity Productions (Brand's company) and BBC Director-General Mark Thompson was actioned to get a grip on quite what was going on with the other producers and to report back.

Most of the trustees have other jobs. Finding what those are and writing to them at those addresses shouldn't be beyond the more determined folk agitator. But remember, the Trustees do not run the BBC. Their job is to ensure that those charged with that task do. Radio 2 either has or is about to have a new Head of Specialist Music. He might be the right person to target with suggestions.

I think you will find that the Smoothies asking for volunteers was just so they could tell the BBC they had, and not because they want any. They know how to tick the BBC's compliance boxes without in fact complying with the intended spirit at all. These are after all the same people who for years had a picture of John Leonard giving two fingers on their own complaints page. It only got removed when someone made a formal complaint to the BBC about it, around the time of Bunnygate.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:38 AM

Ooh, I'll volunteer! :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:34 AM

The other short term tactic is getting onto the panel - they've been asking for volunteers.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:11 AM

there are problems

You don't say. Been down most of those avenues.
I had more in mind bumping into Michael Lyons in the BH lift (unlikely for me nowadays, though I was once in a lift with Frank Muir, Michael Grade AND Greg Dyke) or earbending him at his local pub (a better plan).
More practically, there's the short-term tactic of educating the panel and (if you're as diplomatic as Tom Bliss), gently twisting Mr Leonard's arm.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:00 AM

Who's for ambushing BBC trustees?

I would be but there are problems about this.

The first is that it is hard to just complain to the Trustees. You need to be complaining about a particularl programme.

Then there are three levels of gatekeepers - the final one of which tells you it cannot be sent to the trustees and by coincidence seems to open any mail that gets sent to them. And then says (again) you can't talk to the trustees.

I went through this with regard to the closing down of folk programmes (and those with long memories will recall my appearances on "Feedback" with regard to the albino rabbit and the closing of Ali Anderson's radio show on Radio Newcastle). They seem very determined to not let people talk to the trustees.

And I tried the Freedom of Information Act.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:36 AM

Just to keep one important aspect of the thread going...

I understand your cynicism, Diane, and you're right about the pressures placed on Smoops by the BBC, but I know that John is open to ideas and reason, and is keen to make what improvements he can within the constraints. We discussed the issue of categories in detail and at length across his desk, and it was clear that he saw some (much?) merit in my argument, and seemed to warm to some of my ideas re re-categorisation. He certainly did take on board much of what I said about openness and BBC standards, and has made some changes accordingly - though not as many as I personally would have liked to see. That said, I changed some of my opinions as a result of what he told me too, and I came away reasonably content, though still wanting to keep up pressure for some small but significant improvements. Naturally he feels it's basically not broken (though willing to consider improvements, specially if they'll make life easier for Smoops) so is loath to put time, effort and risk into any major fixes. I don't think the awards are broken either, but I do have serious concerns about other issues within the 'folk industry' and see the awards as one of the few useful tools in the box. My suggestions for change are all around that. I always stress that I'm personally very happy with the basic end result - things are looking better than ever this year - and merely want to remove unnecessary confusion (Jiggers' issue goes to the heart of a big one), provide a smoother and more open process, and make the awards work harder in terms of PR benefit for 'folk.'

Yes, it might be a good idea to talk to some trustees (I try to bring the subject into the conversation if I'm talking to any suits - which I rarely do these days), but if so, then you would need to make a cogent argument based on a sound knowledge of the existing rationale and budget. Meanwhile, Jiggers might be better off making his or her suggestions where John might read them.

Tom

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:29 AM

As I was saying on the subject of adequate representation of English music in public service broadcasting and its categorisation (if any) in the BBC R2 Awards nominations, Who's for ambushing BBC trustees?

This body has not, however, any connection with the Mercuries. To be considered there, all you have to do is pay to enter. Nor does it influence the fRoots Critics Poll, won recently by Low Culture.
Confused of Sidmouth might expect to be hearing from Ian Anderson who is currently on tour with Blue Blokes 3. That's if he considers such inane ramblings meriting considered refute.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM

"1. I have and continue to castigate various wannabe popstars of Devonish(ish) provenance on specifically musical grounds. I find they're actually quite nice chaps."

So, you castigate those who can fill The Royal Albert Hall over and again, who are joined very happily on stage, and in the audience, by many from the traditional world, whilst finally admitting that they are actually 'quite nice chaps'

Well, I suppose your 'they're actually quite nice chaps' admission is a positive sign at long last, so hopefully, you may be able to work something else out too. That is that Show of Hands are doing more to take traditional and non-traditional songs OUT to 'the people' than any other musicians around. They may not sing them as you decree, but why the hell should they? They live in 2009, not in 1873. They perform music for people who are alive now, not for those who have gone before. Just as those who indeed 'went before' performed their songs for the people of their era. Show of Hands don't want these songs kept in museums, as others do. They don't want to be tied down to the confines of Cecil Sharp House, hemmed in by rules and regulations, where their clothes (and their minds) will become infiltrated with dust, damp and dastardly backwards ideas.

"2. I always commiserate with long lists of performers who don't get nominations for this or that."

You may well do, in private. However, strangely, the incident with Seth was the *only* time I've ever seen you commiserate with other performers, publicly, whilst choosing to offer no congratulations whatsoever to Seth.

"3. The Lakeperson's Mercury nomination was highly suspect on the grounds that the CD was released initially outside the time limits. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ian Anderson made the same observation. Many did. It arises from an ability to read a calendar."

Had the same thing happened to one of your 'chosen' performers from within the fRoots 'radar-protected' inner circle, then I've no doubt that you and Ian Anderson would have done all in your power to ensure that the artist/s concerned had backing and support from as many as possible to enable them to go into the nomination category. OR, you may just have chosen to completely overlook it, entirely.

I do like a good dose of hypocrisy with my early morning cuppa, it makes me start the day with a smile. :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:00 PM

I knew a barrister once who had programmed his computer to make an announcement on bootup, rather than play the usual irritating Windoze tunes. It said "Good Morning, Ruler of the Universe" (it said it in the way that really needs those capital letters).

Looks like there might be a demand for such a product.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Folk Awards categories topic, but as I have absolutely no wish to enter into a private correspondence with madlizziecornish (good grief, may the firmament and higher heavens forfend), I am obliged to refute a series of wild assertions here on the forum in order that those with an interest in more ethical promotion of English music might be redirected to the actual point.

1. I have and continue to castigate various wannabe popstars of Devonish(ish) provenance on specifically musical grounds. I find they're actually quite nice chaps.

2. I always commiserate with long lists of performers who don't get nominations for this or that.

3. The Lakeperson's Mercury nomination was highly suspect on the grounds that the CD was released initially outside the time limits. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ian Anderson made the same observation. Many did. It arises from an ability to read a calendar.


As for the future (if any) of the Best Album category of the Folk Awards under the present regime, is there any likelihood of it continuing (since no-one has yet been arsed to amalgamate threads passim floating about the ether, might it be conducted with greater semblance of orthographical exactitude (e.g. agreement expressed via correctly spelled "HEAR" x 2, else it's complete nonsense), and differentiation between "infer" and "imply" which are far from synonymous.

Who's for ambushing BBC trustees?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

Luckily, Specsavers have added a final frame to their above DE designer collection:

Our 'Do You Forget What You've Sometimes Said?' frame

I suggest you get a pair. :0)

Oh, and for those who aren't aware, I should just clarify, that obviously the Seth campaign didn't work, and although he didn't win the Mercury Prize that year, it was the stepping stone for a whole new path in his career.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:39 PM

"And Jim Moray (who very recently spoke out bravely about how deeply he'd been affected by cruel, dismissive comments about Sweet England and aspects of his stage presentation half a decade ago) is doubtless puzzling over the use of "hybrid", however much the jigging person claims it wasn't meant to hurt. The admission that the CD hadn't even merited a play was an especially low blow (pun intended).

These artists put their all into their productions. They are not, of course, silly or vain enough to expect everyone to hail everything they do as the very finest from the instore bakery and sliced too, but they do have a right not to be bombarded with brickbats telling them to call it "something else". "


Yup, I'm sure SoH and Seth felt equally upset when you slammed into them Diane, so many, many times.

As I recall, it was good ol' Jim Moray who was the first person to step forward to congratulate Seth Lakeman on his nomination for the Mercury Award, and er...you...who completely chose to ignore that, commiserating with every single other artist who wasn't nominated, instead. Then, began the campaign to have Seth disqualified from the Mercuries, which, again, as I recall, was driven entirely by you and Ian Anderson.

This of course, was *after* the campaign where you inferred that Show of Hands fans had cheated to get them voted in as Best Live Act.

Yes, you're perfectly correct, people shouldn't make low comments about artists, ANY artists.

And also, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Let he who is without sin......and all that.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:51 PM

Hauling this thread a few miles back towards topic (a distinctly attention aux chevaux, 1954ish, retrogressive labelling exercise on the part of Guest Jiggers), the very last thing the Best Albums category requires is "humorous" (sans u), trivialising chit-chat. A CD is a vital tool in an artist's portfolio of achievements and direction and its presentation and subsequent reception can make or break careers. The topic is serious and important, though only because there is no viable alternative to the Folk Awards.

Ms Carthy is probably a little too busy right now to have seen such dismissive remarks about her highly personal latest oeuvre (yet), but having witnessed how proud she (and her parents) were at the DOBU launch, I'm certain she'll be at least saddened when she finds out. And Jim Moray (who very recently spoke out bravely about how deeply he'd been affected by cruel, dismissive comments about Sweet England and aspects of his stage presentation half a decade ago) is doubtless puzzling over the use of "hybrid", however much the jigging person claims it wasn't meant to hurt. The admission that the CD hadn't even merited a play was an especially low blow (pun intended).

These artists put their all into their productions. They are not, of course, silly or vain enough to expect everyone to hail everything they do as the very finest from the instore bakery and sliced too, but they do have a right not to be bombarded with brickbats telling them to call it "something else". There are, after all, many more than just me whose toes curl up and the terminally-damaged, past sell-by term "f*lk" and the way it is slung around nowadays, and who seek more descriptively accurate terms.

As for bombarding Smoothops with demands for extra Folk Award categories, it's a no-brainer. Apart from the fact that they couldn't be arsed anyway and, on past showing, fail to recognise a clear-cut difference (c.f. Bunnygate), they have to do what the network controller wants (and strictly within budget), or no contract extensions for Mr Leonard. It is, frankly, pointless to hope for change as long as R2 is involved. Smoothops fits in with the network's "follow though" ethos because it's the only way they have to go. It's what R2 does, and yes, OK, it's dumbed down and safe enough for some.

Any hope there can be lies in lobbying further up the BBC chain, not at network level. Other EBU broadcasters can provide 24-hour digital broadcasting of traditional music and, with governmental support, provide far more adequate platforms for their respective tradarts. So, find a trustee and bend back their ears.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Kev The Clogs
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

OK DB, you've asked for for it - I can't believe that somebody can have their head so firmly inserted up their own backside as you have!!

"Here, here" was indeed a sign of agreement with the previous poster - Lizzie has at least been trying to add a little humour to the thread!!

"Oh, and where did you learn stepping? Johnson Ellwood, champion Northumbrian clogdancer, taught me." - who gives a tinker's toss who taught you to step! Didn't realise that we had entered into an arena of oneupmanship.

"Off topic bollocks" - not at all. It's called "conversation", just in a written format. When people are having a conversation, the focus of the conversation often changes (doesn't mean its going off topic) - As for the bollocks part, well Madam, if "if the cap fits".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:54 AM

"Unfortunately none of the contributions on this thread are actually going to help take this to the next level, which is to offer as a suggestion to the Folk Award organisers."

People do make suggestions to the organisers, and you can yourself - either by writing directly to Smooth Operations via their website , or perhaps by contributing to the webforum which they themselves run.

Your suggestion has been made in the past. Perhaps if enough people suggest it, in the right way in the right place they may think seriously about it.

Tom

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:41 AM

1. Best Trad Album
2. Best Non-Trad Album


I think that's a very good idea, Jiggers. :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:11 AM

Hi,

If "Skulked off" means logged off and went home then that is fine otherwise you are mistaken.

I have been accused of many things recently on this thread which concerns me as I have no argument with anyone and so wonder why I am getting this treatement.

For one, I was not detracting from Jim Moray. I went to a Jim Moray concert recently and have the Sweet England CD which I thoroughly enjoy. The word hybrid is not meant to be insulting, perhaps the word fusion might be a suitable replacement. Jim Moray wasn't even on my mind when I started the thread. I believe someone is trying to make me feel inadequate for not having listened to it, why so ?

The two albums on my mind when I started the thread, were the Eliza Carthy album and the Karine Polwart album. I just think that they are not typical of the genre (as defined by what I hear in sessions, at concerts, on the radio, folk festivals, read in books, play from books) and my conclusion is that I would like to see two Album awards :

1. Best Trad Album
2. Best Non-Trad Album

Unfortunately none of the contributions on this thread are actually going to help take this to the next level, which is to offer as a suggestion to the Folk Award organisers. The only positive I can take is that my expectation of a constructive response to such assuggestion is now very low.

One thing this thread has shown me is the ease with which some people misinterpret, misread and misunderstand postings. I think some of it is deliberate. This would make me reluctant to use this forum for any such matter again.

And finally, its not my fault that Mudcat forum didn't show the full title of the thread that I raised.


Jiggers

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

Next year's Folk Awards will include a stepdancing category. Possibly.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

'ear 'ear

Johnson Ellwood, champion Northumbrian clogdancer, taught me.

Off topic!

OFF with her 'ead!


Thank you for staying tuned, but now, normal service has been resumed, so we're pleased to hand you back to The Folk Awards.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:12 AM

Here here ¿Qué?

Hear, hear is an expression used as a short repeated form of hear ye and hear him. It represents a listener's agreement with the point being made. [c.f. Oyez, Oyez]

OK, so you agree with off-topic bollocks, spread across multiple threads.

Oh, and where did you learn stepping? Johnson Ellwood, champion Northumbrian clogdancer, taught me.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Kev The Clogs
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM

Here here Lizzie!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:35 AM

Aha! I stand corrected...and offer my apology, with no wriggling. :0)

However.....the *title* of this thread is 'BBC Folk Awards 2009' and that shows on the heading above each post, as it also does on the main board....BUT, it says on the heading above the original poster's first post... 'BBC Folk Awards 2009 Rename Category

Either way, we've had both serious and humourous discussion in here...so nowt's been wasted.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:42 AM

The OP's original contribution was a whinge specifically about classification in the Best Album category.
The original thread, which progresses in the main in a more balanced, informed and orderly vein, is here.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:23 AM

WHY on earth should this thread be closed down?

BTW, it's no good trying to wriggle out of it in your first paragraph, above this post, because you quite clearly stated earlier:

"This thread's about Folk Awards Nominations 2009. In which not a single Lakeperson nor a Devonish Dishevelled person features."

You were wrong. Seth Lakeman's in the Nominations, under Best Live Act.

By the way, Jim Moray Rocks!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

This thread was initiated by someone who hadn't even listened to Low Culture (although it's been out for around 6 months), in yet another attempt to discredit Jim Moray. The OP considered the Best Album Folk Award nominations were "not f*lk CDs". Best Live Act didn't come into it.

Having had it pointed out that Low Culture has either 7 or 8 trad tracks (depending on how you look at them), the OP has skulked off, never to be seen again. As the thread has drifted irrevocably off topic into previously far-too-frequently revisited West Country irrelevancies and other equally inane directions, it would be A Good Thing to close it (there's another kicking about somewhere). It's nowhere near where it started, it had a completely distorted initial point and the awards ceremony isn't for another two weeks anyway.

And yes, Bella Hardy does find it bizarre that there are those who meander mindlessly knee-deep into tripe rather than making / listening to music, though I'm not altogether sure she'd really have wanted them at the gig which was a triumph and Chris Sherburn came along too!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Kampervan
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 07:41 PM

Oh for God's sake Lizzie, give it a rest.

I also like Seth Lakeman and SoH, but I suspect that your praising them does them more damage than a 1000 detractors.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 02:27 PM

From Diane:

"This thread's about Folk Awards Nominations 2009. In which not a single Lakeperson nor a Devonish Dishevelled person features."

Whistling casually smiley! :0)

BEST LIVE ACT

Bellowhead
BBC Cambridge 2007 | Official Site | Wikipedia

The Demon Barbers
Official Site

Lau
BBC Radio 2 Video Interview | Official Site | Wikipedia

Seth Lakeman
BBC Music Profile | Official Site | Wikipedia



Sweetums, may I recommend the 'Know it All' glasses from the new Speccysavers range? ;0)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

"I'm sure she'll be highly amused at the quaint things being said in this thread."

I'm sure she will! ;0) :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM

From Sweetums:

"..I recommend Specsavers to assist you to actually read and maybe even comprehend what I have written."




I just received this email a short while ago.   ;0)



"Good Afternoon Everyone,

We here at Speccsavers always like to keep abreast of what our public is hankering after. Having been informed by our West Country area manager that we appear to have a gap in our Designer frame market, we'd like to bring to you our latest range of Spectacular Spectacles for making a spectacle of yourself in.

These samples below are from our 'D.E.Design' designer range.

We very much hope that you enjoy them and look forward to you placing an order with us shortly.

Thank you.

Yours optically,

The Speccsavvy Team



Our 'I'm Gonna Need Alcohol To Read THIS Post!' frame

Our 'Holey Moley! Did She REALLY Say That About Me!' frame

Our "I Don't Care WHAT She Says! I KNOW I'm A Good Musician! frame

Our 'Know It All' frame, as modelled by The Designer herself

And finally, our 'Take That, Sweetums!' frame


And now, back to the Folk Monopoly...woops, sorry, the Folk Awards.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM

This thread's about Folk Awards Nominations 2009. In which not a single Lakeperson nor a Devonish Dishevelled person features.
Just leaving to see Bella Hardy(who does). I'm sure she'll be highly amused at the quaint things being said in this thread.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 01:18 PM

"..I was actually rather sorry for the poor Lakeperson because of the damage those idiots of Oldham could have inflicted on his career..."


Heeheehee!

Oh, Sweetums, you DO make me chuckle!

On Friday, following a trip to A&E at Exeter, I was limping around the grounds of Exeter University, with my shepherd's crook type stick, having torn a groin muscle (ouch!) and Gandalf the Blonde came into being...

Well, (I know Joe, but I'm getting there) :0)...Well, my friend (who had taken me to A&E and then had to attend a lecture) and I went passed The Great Hall and memories of Seth's Sensational Gig came flooding in.

Oh what a night! A packed Hall, all standing, queueing right around the Hall to get in, people desparate for cancelled tickets, mighty long queue there too...and the biggest Tour Bus I ever did see! When Seth came out on to that stage, which was so beautifully lit, thousands of young people went absolutely crazy! They whooped and cheered, clapped and whistled, and as the thundering, pounding beats started, and Seth put his fiddle to his shoulder, the floor shook with the vibration of people dancing. They knew all the words, these youngsters...all of them stood there, singing songs of their part of the country, cheering when Seth mentioned a particular place here, or another there....all taking in the most famous singer of The New Tradition. And when he did his 'Kitty Jay' bit, where his fiddle almost self combusts, they went WILD!   When he stopped, there was a silence of around 5 seconds, as people stood there, stunned..then, deafening applause filled the air.

Of course, that night, we were doubly blessed, as Seth's special guests were Dan Donnelly (Fantastic!) and Steve Knightley, who absolutely wowed them with his songs! Phil was in the audience, and as Steve was singing, the group of chums behind me whispered, "Who's this bloke? He's great!" So I filled them in.."Ah, Show of Hands, we've heard about them." and they nodded..

Nothing can hurt Seth's career, he's a rising star, who'll just keep rising, as I've always said he would. Thank heavens he spread his wings and stuck to doing his music his way. It's been the saving of him. Seth is a one off, and he's bringing in thousands to folk music, absolutely thousands...but heck, didn't it take the Folk Awards a long time to finally give in and give Seth something! Gee Whizzzzzzz!

Yes, he got in under Ian Anderson's 'radar', as did Show of Hands...and bloody good job too!

Seth Lakeman - Our Dartmoor Bunny

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 01:06 PM

. . . finally, whatever does this mean?

"the panel is made up of industry representatives who are supposed to know what they are doing.
This year, Phil Beer is one of the nominees for Musician Of The Year."

Exactly what DO you want performers to be/sing/play, so that they fit into your seamingly,[sic] very narrow Folk needs.


The top line is mine. It describes how the Smoothies go about organising their beanfeast, which is nothing whatsoever to do with me.

The second line is from a clogging person rambling on about somebody or other's "narrow folk needs" (whatever they are).

Not my ballgame. The Smoothies run it. And screw it up. All by themselves. However, their efforts seem just a bit more sane this year. On y va.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:51 PM

To recap, I entered this thread because the OP was questioning whether the nominated CDs in the Best Album category were "f*lk" (don't give a toss, myself as I never use the term) and described Jim Moray's Low Culture (unheard!) as "hybrid" (whatever that is). He then asked me whether a "techno dance" album would be "OK to win". I said Ms Carthy's Red Rice was just that (in part, anyway).

I'm sure you're all getting the idea of how very "entrenched" I am. My entire raison d'être for arriving on this forum six years ago was as a result of the wholly unjustified stick the unenightened backwoodspersons were applying to Jim Moray's Sweet England.

Unless, of course, you mean my role in the battle lines against the Smoothies, in particular over their monumental Bunnygate cock-up. I was actually rather sorry for the poor Lakeperson because of the damage those idiots of Oldham could have inflicted on his career. Those (if any) who bother to actually read the thread will have noticed that I agreed with someone who speculated that the Smoothies just might have taken hold of their socks this year, so as not to let yet another White Hare on the loose.

Ah, the Lakeperson and the Beery one. Jolly nice chaps. They can play whatever they like (especially if it makes them a living) but, in the words of the sainted Ms Tabor, just don't expect me to listen to some of it. They know which bits . . .

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 12:14 PM

Clogging person

I was pointing merely to the fact that Mr Beer is nominated for Musician Of The Year, as a counter to someone who was whingeing that SoH (but one of his bands) had been "overlooked".

I also said that, of those nominated this year, he was the most likely candidate in that category, challenged only by the one who used to have a mohican on his head.

I said, furthermore, that I held no brief whatsover for the Smoothies (nor for R2, nor even the BBC since I've not worked there for over 10 years) but that the outsourced production company was doing what it was paid (and therefore told) to do.

The answer to your subsequent questions are 'yes' 'yes' & 'no'. I am a writer, not a professional performer.

I recommend Specsavers to assist you to actually read and maybe even comprehend what I have written. You know me not at all, or you would be aware that my "attitude" is far from "entrenched", nor am I a "f*lkie" (I loathe the term for oft-explained reasons) nor even an "older folie" (though that sounds rather interesting).

Nor do I know who YOU are and if you HAVE spoken to me, I am entirely unaware of it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Kev The Clogs
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:06 AM

Diane Easby

"the panel is made up of industry representatives who are supposed to know what they are doing.
This year, Phil Beer is one of the nominees for Musician Of The Year."

Exactly what DO you want performers to be/sing/play, so that they fit into your seamingly, very narrow Folk needs.

I've crossed words with you before on this issue, as have many others.

"Phil beer could piss rings round virtually any other trad musician in England - technique wise." Here here weelittledrummer!!!!

Phil Beer's playing style and ability has inspired me to pick up two instruments and learn to play at the age of 44! SoH songs have encouraged me to sing in public and learn a variety of songs, both traditional and contemporary, equally at the age of 44!!

Do YOU sing or play anything? If so, are you any good? What do your peers say about you/your ability/your style?

We ALL have a right to be critical and to choose to listen or not listen to someone, but you always appear to be SO negative.

Lighten up - its this sort of entrenched attitude that gives us "older folies" a bad name.

I find that the BBC Folk Awards are an ideal way of giving people a taster of what is out there. When I first came into this folkie world about four years ago, I didn't have a clue as to who was who, what style they did, if they were any good etc. Yes, my peers made suggestions, but I found that lsitening to the CDs made me want to go and buy some more of a particulat artist, or not - great for a Newbee, nice for an open minded chilled folkie, not good for an entrencehed "it must be this way" type of person.

Depending on where people place themselves in these three categories, should therefore indicate their type of response to the original issue of this thread. If you are Number three on my list, DON'T buy or listen to, The Folk Awards because they will upset and dissapoint you. If you are a Number two, then you may learn a bit here of there or perhaps change your view. If you are a Number 1, then you will be drawn into our delightful, but sometimes frustrating, world of folk music.

Kev The Clogs

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:26 AM

The thing is captain - if you wanted to be considered for these honours - you'd have to try and BE like them - and from what I've seen of your work - you're not really a 'music industry' sort of artist.

nevertheless I can see how being nominated might be helpful to you.

i don't know what the solution is.

the thing is, you must realise that this gang - in the general scheme of things are pretty small time.

perhaps you need to think outside the box - this is a very exclusive club. and by the look of it - you're going to remain excluded - so the thing is - you must look to break the cycle that you're in, by another exit route - if that's what you want.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 10:14 AM

Brilliant idea, peregrina.

Sadly, all I can do is try to inspire others to do just that, as you have done, because *no-one* at Smooth Ops will talk to me, having been told by the BBC they're not allowed to. (yeah, right..like they so want to talk to people anyway)

It's something that has needed sorting out for many, many years, and I doubt that any other genre of music has such a tiny selection of people being chosen over and over, from such a vast sea of wonderful performers.

It's NOT the performers fault at all, but those who run the Awards.

Go for it, peregrina! :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009--the cook-in sauce query
From: peregrina
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM

Posters in the BS section seem to have played a huge role in getting a discontinued barbeque sauce back into production--I think not by the thread as by writing in to the manufacturer or distributor, and then other sauce-slicking non-catters finding the thread by google and joining in the pressure. What was it--something like Woody's cook-in sauce?

So, anyone for a write-in campaign? About the awards? Asking for Late Junction to be returned to its longer time-span?

Or an alternative awards? So... the awards are bound to be annoying if you are really into folk. And it's clear that the exposure does matter to the artists. But no one forces you to listen?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

..or even... 'diversity' :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

That Guest on Smoothies was me

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

Sorry...following on from the Bruce Dickinson bit about diversity...

John Leonard needs to accept that far more diveristy is needed in the choice of artists nominated for various folk awards.



Here you go, Rosie:
Smooth Ops Main Site

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:17 AM

Here

Smoothy Central

The other sort od Smoothie are perhaps more fit for purpose

How to Make A Smoothie

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:15 AM

It's also the same John Leonard, who, on the Smooth Ops website had a little 'joke' going. If you want to contact them, send in a complaint etc..you were taken to a page with a photo of their 'Customer Care Manager' giving two fingers up his public.

This was taken down last year?, or some time quite recently, after a few people complained. I complained about it years back, but it was completely ignored. I wrote a 'Dear John' letter on the board which was also completely ignored.

When I arrived on that board, I used to praise the Mike Harding show, and so I was Smooth Ops 'darling' for a while, that all changed when I started to shout out about them, and was one more thing that contributed to me being banned.

How can you get a team to listen to you when they are led by a man who has that arrogant attitude?

It must be around 5/6 years since I first found that Folk and Acoustic board, and in all that time, people have been saying exactly the same thing, that the same artists are nominated over and over, that none of the judges are known to us, other than Ian Anderson, or he once was a judge, and that the Folk Awards are NOT representative of the folk music world at all.

It's grossly unfair. It's like a monopoly. Year after year dozens of new artists are blocked from having their names put forward, by a man who, imo, doesn't give a shite about the music or his public, only himself, and his 'nearest and dearest' in the folk world.

Maybe it's time for placards and banners to be held high at the annual Smooth Ops party, which I've no doubt is paid for out of *our* money. Bring the protest songs to the very arena itsef and take over the Awards and finally, let the people be heard.

I always remember Bruce Dickinson a few years back, saying that more diversity was needed, desperately needed, to be brought back into music, and he was there to present an Award to The Oysterband for their 'Big Session Volume II' pleading that they'd be allowed to sing Steve Knightley's 'Country Life' (Show of Hands were joining them on stage) as it was such a great song..but nope..that wasn't permitted either.

John Leonard got it right with The Radio Ballads, but he should darn well stop nominating so many of his pals (or at least, they're 'pals' in my opinion, but I could be wrong - that's for Smooth Ops Lawyers) and listen to his public and then, listen to the MUSIC being produced by hundreds of bands and solo artists who are forever locked out of a Select Club, which has a Members Only sign on the door.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:08 AM

I meant to say "an hour-long, weekly programme". They also produce a number of truly crap comedy shows as well with some sort of connection with Count Arthur Strong and Mark Radcliffe.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:05 AM

Smooth Operations is the outsourced production company that has the contract to run the Folk Awards and an hourly programme presented by one Mike Harding.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

Sorry to go a bit OT, but what's a 'Smoothie'?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2009
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 18 Jan 09 - 08:59 AM

'I was confused to read John Leonard on the BBC site saying "I'm delighted to see so many new names nominated this year."'

That is the same John Leonard who tried to pretend that Seth Lakeman's The White Hare was a traditional song, so there is fairly often a mismatch between what he says and reality.

The best way to shake up and change the Radio 2 Folk Awards would be to change the Executive Producer (Leonard). The same goes for the Radio 2 folk show itself. Smooth Operations have got very complacement and seem to have established some sort of tenure. Ten years is quite long enough and it is about time the BBC exercised Producer Choice and tried something and someone else.