Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?

Subject: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:34 AM

Prompted by this message on the Cheshire Sessions thread

Subject: RE: Cheshire sessions December
From: Mo the caller - PM
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

The Dusty isn't an "around" it's a 'jump in with both feet', a tune or a song.

Nice mixture, though the wiser singers wait till the tuners have driven the noisier diners away. We get some solos and some that raise the roof as everyone piles in.


I'm at somewhat of a loss to know what this type of event should be called.

Fairly typical of local music & song gatherings run the format of rather than rigid turn taking in the singaround mode, people just strike up with a song, tune, WHY, as the muse takes them.

Is this type of arrangement peculiar to Cheshire, N.Wales or is it more widespread?

I'm not sure I'd be content calling it a ' Jumparound' – re Mo's mention above

Anyone ideas of a title/ name for this kind of do?

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:47 AM

Come all ye?

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Carol
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:50 AM

Mixed Session and we do have them in Yorkshire!

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:55 AM

We have several of these in Sussex and we generally call them acoustic sessions. Some are more traditional in content than others, and there are both solo/duo spots and tunes when we also "all pile in".

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:55 AM

If there is NO control over who does what and when , with no regard to what any one else is doing , I'd call it Chaos !

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:56 AM

No, not unique, but now exceedingly rare. It's actually the sort of set-up I grew up with in North Cownwall - with Charlie Bate in particular. However, it did require a group of people who knew each other well, who respected their elders (but not necessarily their betters), who supported and appreciated each other. Oh yes, and a lack of egos.

It was usually referred to as a scat - as in: "Hello boy, we'm 'avin' a scat down Tredrae, coming?"

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:02 AM

Well, there is generally someone who "runs" the sessions - but it's not unusual and fairly acceptable in some places that a performer who gets the urge will strike up without warning. It's never caused a problem in the sessions I've attended because - as the post above comments - the attendees support and appreciate each other.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:19 AM

I like Manitas's suggestion 'Come All Ye'

Sheerly by coincidence, this is what our weakly gathering is already called, but I'd not previously considered the additional meaning of the phrase

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:19 AM

Survival of the loudest?

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM

Not neccessarily, as others have said above, chaos & intimidation is avoided by mutual consideration & cooperation - also every effort is made to encourage the bashful & beginners

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:26 AM

In the US, our home based ones are usually called either sings or hoots.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Carol
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:03 AM

As an unaccompanied singer I've got to admit that I prefer a singaround that is organised and where singers and also musicians 'have their turn around the room, or holding the Hat/twig etc.'. A few years ago I wouldn't have dared jump into a session with a song. The other problem with a jump in one is that you have to start singing straight away, and so don't get any chance to 'introduce' a song.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: John Routledge
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

For some the impossibility of introducing a song is an advantage.:0)

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Sooz
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:26 AM

I'm with Leadfingers on this one!

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:33 AM

I think there's a subtle difference between the singaround and the session. The former travels around the performers one at a time, and the latter assumes - with some exceptions - that, once a tune/song has been started, the company can join in.

But, yes - most of these occasions need at least a leetle direction...

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:35 AM

No-one runs most of the Cheshire / N Shropshire ones I go to, but there are people who notice and make signals if 2 tunes are starting at once, and the shout 'Julies turn' afterwards for the one who got drowned.
I find the 'round the room' types more intimidating, especially as the people I sit with tend to play stuff I want to join in with, then I get sprung on to start something. Whereas, at the session I like, I can follow on if I'm reminded of something, or play something contrasting or enjoy listening to everyone else.
If we see someone new, or someone who hasn't played, some of us will ask them if they want to play, and tell them to jump in.
It usually works out well (and there are people who will politely say that it's ....'s turn, if someone is hogging the floor). I can only think of 3 or 4 times when that was needed.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Bert
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:20 AM

I've been to some of those and they always seem to end up with a few of the loudest and brashest hogging the show at the expense of the polite ones.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Carol
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

These days I often ask the other punters to join in if they know the song and surely musicians can do this as well if they want others to play along with the tunes?
Also I do like to listen to and understand the words of a song.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Aeola
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM

If you like to listen to the why's of a song then jump in with your question why bfore the next song starts!! I like all formats, they all seem to work reasonably well and in most cases people who attend them have always appeared to be fairly reasonable, or, have I just been lucky?

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

I've heard this type of session called a "dive-in"... not without justification, as each performer takes an immediate plunge, ideally (!) without a safety net.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:49 PM

I've been pondering this for many years, and the closest I can come is that *IF* it is a private party and almost everyone knows each other and knows what to expect, then a free, open, no rules except politeness basic singing session is possible.
   In the US, as Susan mentions, we used to call those 'hoots'...short for Hootenanny, a name which just grew back in the 50s & 60s. I used to attend a few of those, and it was nice. One song led to another and people would ask each other for songs and those with 'more' experience would usually lead more stuff, while 'learners' would ...ummm... learn and do a bit less until they got more proficient.

But, if the event is widely publicized and 'open', it usually mst be more 'formal', with everyone being invited to take a turn...often by simply going around a circle. Otherwise, it is as Bert says and ends up with "a few of the loudest and brashest hogging the show". I quite realize that many of those loud, brash ones ARE often better, seasoned performers who have a large repertoire and who get weary of what they consider to be weak, boring awkward attempts by 'amateurs'. Some, obviously, have a lower threshold of pain than others.

   After 45+ years of this, I see no easy solution except making it clear to the group what to expect, and asking everyone to think about how to make the evening pleasant.

Groups which meet regularly can assign a standard name to each type...whether "hoot" or "scat" or "session"...just as long as folks know what to expect.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:31 PM

many of those loud, brash ones ARE often better, seasoned performers

Two things. I like the informality and the vibe of a 'dive in' session when it's going well, but being neither loud nor brash - and not having an instrument to strum as an early warning - I tend to end up mostly listening. And if 'dive in' sessions can reach greater heights than clock-golf singarounds, they can also go more badly wrong. Loud and brash performers are often talented & experienced, but sometimes they're just people who don't have the self-knowledge to realise that they aren't entertaining anyone - the musical equivalent of the office bore.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:08 PM

A severe vocal event!

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM

Most of the sessions I've played in (my local one is in Cheshire, as it happens, but I've played all round the country) have been "dive in", and in my experience this has always been the norm. I was interested in doc.tom's comment that this format is now rare. That's not my experience and when I turn up at a session this is what I expect to find (festival sessions excepted - these usually appoint an organiser, although the better ones loosen the reins once the session is flowing).

I prefer this format - all too often having to wait for an MC to call the next performer can kill the spontaneity. My regular session has been going for so long that no one can remember who started it, and no one runs it, people just turn up knowing that other musicians will be there. It would be very presumptuous for someone to put themselves forward now to organise the session.

However these are instrumental sessions, and whilst I prefer this format for them I agree that some structure and organisation is preferable for song sessions.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:40 PM

"...having to wait ....... can kill the spontaneity."

Indeed it can...in almost ANY group there are trade-offs in making it anywhere near "the greatest good for the greatest number. It is often true that taking turns will mean that someone will do something they have planned and practiced and they are, by golly, gonna DO it, no matter whether it 'fits' or not. Those who know hundreds of songs can dig one out that 'feels' better.

As I said, people need to find the type of sing that suits how they think and what they know.
Our local "open sing" is truly 'open' as to who can come and get a turn, and has a theme to help guide folks to plan and learn something that DOES fit. It works moderately well. For those who are not content with 'moderately well' (and some of my friends fit that description) they usually gather in private, invitation only sessions. A few top-notch performers seem happy to join 'almost' any happy, friendly singing group.

It is, as they say, different stroke for different folks.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: ossonflags
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:57 AM

It all depends on what works and were they are held.

The singaround/session we run in Hull at the Welly are run on a "dive in" basis.
This is working perfecly well because;

1.Most musicians and singers know each other
2.All give respect to one another.
3.Newcomers are given a hearty welcome
4.The more reluctant are given encouragemnet by the more outgoing of us.

I have run and been part of sessions that have been organised and held in not so quiet pubs, this has needed a guiding hand.

There have also been sessions that have been badly run were people do there bit and then think it is perfectly ok to talk and noodle through some one elses contribution.

And of course the ultimate were the organisor does his/ her bit then wanders to the bar and talks loudly to mates - as Leadfingers says "result chaos"

I have also seen organised sessions in noisy pubs were ultimately even the regulars have been won over to participate or at least listen.This of course does take time.

I believe the key to any successful session is mutual respect and courtesy for each other.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: John Routledge
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:35 AM

Thanks Ossonflags

A perfect set up for a great night.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:33 AM

For some years I've been attending a New Years Eve party at an acquaintance's house, where folks are invited to bring their instrument and play/sing. I've enjoyed it hugely. There's no "rules", and it's been dive-in, if that's the word.

A year ago, suddenly the word had gone out, and two new guitarists showed up, and a mandolinist, and it's good that I was one of the early arrivals and could sing one song. One.

The rest of the evening resolved (if that's the word) into a continuous jam, with one of the guitarists (and he's good, no question) not even taking a breath before launching into the next thing he wanted to play, with most if not everyone (except me) joining in. There was never another opportunity for me to stick an oar in. Once I did try with the first chord or two of my next song, only to have the "star" just bull on in and start the next one he wanted, and off to the races. I was ignored and drowned out.

I didn't go to the party this last New Years Eve, and don't really expect to in the future.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:36 AM

In my experience, you've really got to nip these kinds of antisocial behaviour in the bud.

At our 'dive in' should infringements such as this occur, then the perp is told straightaway.

Fortunately such instances are rare

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:39 AM

Well, it seemed that everyone except me was there to jam. I don't jam; I'm a "solo act", if that's the word. Everyone else had a good time, it appeared.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: ossonflags
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:27 PM

Well Dave it may have been apt to have a word with your host at fag/pee break time;or the insensitive superstar/"perp" I love that word Mr.Happy - when he had a break.

Problem is most of folk people are to polite to vent their anger on such behaviour.Did the rest of the company feel as you did?

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Carol
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

There are some that say that singers and musicians don't mix!
I guess that's because the instrument can nearly always 'drown out' the voice!
And then there's the time when they need 3 chairs, one for them, one for the guitar, on their left and then a bohran on the right!!
That happened recently to me recently in Whittlesey and the pub was packed but the man wouldn't move anything, humph.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM

That really sux like electolux. To go out expecting evening of fun and song to be disappointed and on New Year's no less.

Maybe a comment to the host early in the evening to the effect that you didn't know that the nature of the evening had changed to jam session. Perhaps s/he might have steered it back to the original format.

You might ask this before the next New Year's event.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: ossonflags
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

I have no problem with the mix of musos and singers in whatever combination; or the playing of instruments loudly.

It is bad manners,intolerance and selfishness that raises my hackles.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Marilyn
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

I really don't like 'dive in' sessions because, um... I just can't!

I absolutely hate the actual business of judging whether someone else is about to start and perhaps getting it wrong and both starting at once. So, usually, I just don't bother and that means I never enjoy the session very much.

I much prefer a singaround / tune-around where everyone gets a turn; at these I will usually get several turns whereas at a 'dive-in' I'm lucky if I can pluck up the courage to play even once!

I think it's that 'diving in' makes me feel pushy - a feeling I really don't like. Perhaps, as a child, I was told too often to sit quietly and not interrupt the grown-ups :-)

Horses for courses as people have said.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Marje
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM

The "dive-in" policy is normal at music (instrumental) sessions. It's also pretty common at mixed song-and-tune sessions.

I think the use of the word "session" should give people a clue as to what they're in for. If, on the other hand, you say "singaround", it suggests that there will be some sort of turn-taking, and that's it's predominantly singing.

The other unwritten rule - or habit, if you like - is that at a "session", it's generally considered OK for musicians or other singers to join in with whoever starts a song or tune. There may be occasional solo "party-piece" tunes or songs that make this impossible, so people will just listen, but most of the time there will be some participation and improvisation from others in the room. At a "singaround", participation is usually confined to singing along in choruses.

Marje

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 12:41 PM

Singup

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM

A sensitive facilitator can balance the musical
"free-for-all" by making sure everyone gets a chance and knowing
something about all of the participants.

This facilitator must be designated to "run" the thing without getting in the way.

Allowing for "jamming" on a couple of songs is always good if they work. If not,
everyone usually notices that.

Introductions are de rigueur because people need to know what they are hearing.

A good facilitator can make an evening happen. Call it a "Folk Happening". This is originally what Pete Seeger had in mind when he named it "Hootenanny".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: BB
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

The problem with calling it a singaround, if that's the format you're using, is that the expectation then is that it's going to be all songs. If you want to include music, poetry, stories, stepping or whatever, what do you then call it? We chose 'Shammick Acoustic Sessions', but it's not a free-for-all in terms of diving in, or joining in with everything. 'Come All Ye' is a possibility, but it's perhaps a little old-fashioned, and the idea is only known to those who are familiar with the folk scene. Since we've started running 'concert nights' (i.e. with a guest and pre-booked support slots), our other nights have become 'Open Nights', using a singaround format, and we're dropping the 'Sessions' part of our title. But then, some people think, because it's called 'Acoustic', that it's all singer-songwriter.

Whatever you call it, it's going to mislead someone, it seems!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:14 AM

It seems to me that the guitarist that DaveO described was just plain selfish.

Dive in sessions work fine providing that people are considerate and do not simply hog the session - that is just plain bad manners.

It often happens that such folk are not so much good as fast and the two are not the same.

In a way they are the losers in the long term because they will drive others away - but then perhaps they don't care as long as their little clique can carry on - but they may also miss out on that gem of a new tune.

If I'm at a session and I think it is getting a bit frantic, I will start a slow air. That quite often calms things down a bit. I did once get torpedoed, though. I started playing Da Slockit Light and this pratt on a mandolin immediately cranked it up to something like reel tempo and completely destroyed the tune in the process.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:41 AM

Ossonflags asked:

Problem is most of folk people are to polite to vent their anger on such behaviour.Did the rest of the company feel as you did?

No. Remember, this was a party with invitations to a variety of people, many of whom had no musical connections, with an invitation to bring your instrument if you liked.

There was one guitarist-sometimes-singer who I noticed sat things out a fair amount, though he sometimes did "jam".   He generally is more of a solo player too. And a very fine one. Less so as a singer.

Otherwise, the fiddler, mandolinist, another one or two guitar players, and I think a harmonicist (is there such a word?) appeared to be in hog heaven with the ongoing jam. But that wasn't what had happened in prior years, and was not what I could or would participate in. I expect the jammers showed up again in force this last New Years Eve, and I didn't and won't, because there ended up no opportunity for what I had to offer.

As to a monitor or facilitator, the host did none of that. He was in and about the party, relating to his guests, only occasionally in the room where the music was going on.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:11 PM

It seems to me that the guitarist that DaveO described was just plain selfish
Undoubtedly - but there's a lot of it about, and most of the 'perps' see nowt wrong in what they do. In a lot of sessions there's a competitive urge; be it singing or playing, someone wants to dominate. Even singarounds aren't immune - I'm sure we've all met the "late session creeper", who will arrive long after the event has started and then locate the prime position in the room and, hey presto, three songs later, he's up and running! Two songs after that, he's gone, leaving those poor sods who've waited two hours for a spot to fume and curse their own lack of chutzpah (or selfishness).
The bottom line is, the folk world (for all its inclusiveness), is full of egos, just like every other niche hobby.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: GUEST,synbyn
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:22 AM

Well, down in Kent we have all kinds of sessions- the one I've been longest involved in is just a straightforward round-the-room mixture of absolutely anything from Lord Franklin to Come On Eileen to Sussez Bonny Breastknot with the understanding that anyone can join in whenever... it's all acoustic, all abilities and no-one runs it! The Woodshed sessions in the Wrotham at Broadstairs have a slightly more formal air- still acoustic but with an MC to dot around the room so that a variety is maintained if 4 melodian players sit next to each other. The other characteristic of the Woodshed session is that 2 accomplished and experienced musicians are engaged to accompany the other singers & players- this seems to work very well, and the session is always a delight!

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 06:38 AM

There is a little bit of an art to running a session. I run one in my local on the 2nd Sunday of the month - last night, as it happens. We had 8 people in all - a little quieter than usual through illness and other commitments - but it was a lovely evening. My own personal practice is:

1. I start the evening off with something simple to break the ice.

2. I look around and ask if anyone fancies striking up.

3. If no-one immediately comes forward (rare), I usually ask someone, without being too commandeering.

4. I make sure that everyone gets the chance to have their fair share of starting up with tunes/songs of their choice during the evening.

It's a given that anyone can join in on anything. Oddly enough, if someone starts a particularly quiet song, the company respects the mood and lets the song go as a solo, or perhaps one person might add a little accompaniment. Everyone is included, no matter what standards, and anything goes - blues, traditional, contemporary folk, dance tunes, jazz, country. As it happens, we're all there through a common love of acoustic music, so there's very little really off the wall stuff.

Oh yes, and I make sure that everyone who has taken the trouble to come along and play gets a drink from me.

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

Oh yes, and I make sure that everyone who has taken the trouble to come along and play gets a drink from me.

Are you ever in Chorlton at all?

Subject: RE: Not Singaround? Then what d'ye call it?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:27 PM

Might be one day... you never know - my great-grandparents came from Chorlton so I'm almost a native... -)