Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz

Subject: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 01:36 AM

Symptoms:

Fretting the high and low E strings at the 3rd fret - > plucking the two strings causes a high, rapid, metallic buzz.
> plucking only the high E causes the same buzz (but only if the low E string is also fretted).

This happens even if my helper muffles all but the high E string. If I fret and pluck only the high E string, and it plays without a buzz, as soon as the low E string is depressed (and not necessarily plucked), the buzz returns. Even if Ginny pinches the low E string so it can't possibly vibrate, as soon as it is depressed at the 3rd fret, plucking the high E string results in the buzz.

Tests and results: 1. Tuning to lower than concert pitch removes the problem. 2. Tuning to 1/2 step higher than concert pitch moves the problem to 7th fret, but with G string and low E string! 3. Tuning 1/2 step low and putting capo on 1st fret removes problem. 4. Loosened truss rod 1/4 turn. No effect. 5. Tightened all sources of potential vibration (tightened tuning machine screws, put strip of paper under and behind saddle, removed endpin, removed truss rod cover plate). No effect. 6. Changed strings to new set of mediums. No effect. Changed strings to new set of lights. No effect. Strings are clipped short at tuning pegs. 7. Dampened strings at nut end, at bridge end, and at tuning pegs. No effect.

Bark Woof

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Allan C.
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 08:10 AM

Wow! Sounds like you have covered most of the bases. A possibility might be that some glueing might have become loose within the body - loose enough to vibrate sympathetically but not loose enough to disloge. This may sound silly, but do you have access to a stethoscope? It could help you to pinpoint the source.

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 10:32 AM

Thanks for the advice, Allan. I'll borrow one and give a listen. I had tried listening with a piece of aquarium tubing, but couldn't get a good connection. This vibration seems metallic, though. When I had the strings off I did a pretty thorough thumping of all wood surfaces and didn't hear anything suspect. Maybe the stethoscope will reveal more.
Just noticed I forgot to put HTML codes in my original message. Pretty hard to look at...

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Easy Rider
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 12:10 PM

A good article on diagnosing buzz and rattle can be found at

Frets.com

Search through the articles on guitar repair.

EZR

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 09:36 PM

Thanks, Easy Rider. Good idea. I posted a note to Frets.com. Turns out that the site is hosted by Frank Ford of Gryphon Guitars. He's worked on some stuff for me in the past, and I'm hoping he'll come up with an answer. Meanwhile I noticed that the saddle is kind of low, so I'll try messing with that.

This is my new (1995) Goodall Standard with the amazing sound, and Ginny is a bit down about buying me a guitar that buzzes. So I've got to get it figured out, for her as well as myself.

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: A. G. (inactive)
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 06:31 PM

Try pressing the strings one by one at the first fret and at the fret where the neck joins the body. This will tell you for sure that a string isn't touching the neck. If you sight down the neck there should be a little bow between all of the strings and the frets. If the frets touch all of the way then the truss rod is too tight, or the neck has developed a backwards warp. If it has a backwards warp after you loosen the truss rod some it should be under waranty if it is a new guitar. If it isn't it is a big harry job to fix and you can email me at [e-mail] and I can give you some ideas on the neck.

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Chet W.
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 07:36 PM

I'll bet it's the bridge saddle after all. The point where the string crosses the saddle should be a perfect arc of a circle the same diameter as the thickness of the bridge saddle. The next best thing would be a moderately sharp point. I think you're getting a sitar effect because the saddle is too flat. I may be wrong, but let us know what it turned out to be.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 03:58 AM

...just a thought.. you don't live near any beekeepers do you? [Well ,I didn't understand any of the rest of the thread but wanted to "help"!]
:o)

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Bert
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 08:03 AM

Could the 3rd fret wire be loose?

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 02 Jul 99 - 12:15 AM

You folks are amazing!! What creative and intelligent ideas! I tried several of them, with these results:
1) The stethoscope: determined that there are no wood parts loose. Couldn't get a good fix on strings though. Sure made them sound loud!
2) The third fret possibly loose: Ginny thought the same thing, but nope. Nice and tight. However, there is some fret wear on the first and second strings - on the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th frets. Also a little on the sixth string, 3rd fret. This opens lots of possibilities, don't it?
3) Looked for bees. Might be a swarm hiding in the B string :)
4) The bridge saddle shape: the saddle is radiused; the bass end is higher than the treble end; it's pretty low, but not terribly so; it's shaped so the 1st, 2nd, 5th and 6th strings make contact with it furthest from the sound hole, and the 3rd and 4th strings make contact with it closest to the sound hole. But as for the arc in the profile: yes, sort of, for the bass strings; but not really for the high B and E. It's kind of flat for them. Good idea, I'll try shaping a new saddle, thanks for that idea.
5) Pressing between the nut and first frets, and at the point where neck joins body (14th fret): decent amount of curve. We slid some feeler gauges through there and took lots of notes. The biggest gap was at the 7th fret: .015", which I think is slightly low action, but not abnormal?
6) Frets.com: Frank responded to my question, saying he thought it might be a "back buzz" on the low E. He suggested raising the low E in the nut with a piece of paper and then testing. Well, this may be paydirt! With a piece of paper in there, the buzz characteristic changed to a quieter buzz that ends abruptly. And if I leave the paper in there AND damp the low E anywhere between the nut and the 3rd fret, the buzz is GONE. I wrote these results back to Frank, and he suggests maybe raising the nut a bit, or loosening the truss rod even a little more.

THANKS EVERYONE, BY JOVE, I THINK WE'VE GOT IT!!! GINNY AND I ARE ONCE AGAIN HAPPY CAMPERS.

Bark Woof

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 07 Jul 99 - 12:57 AM

Postscript:
Found a wonderful repairman who sprinkled magic bone dust in the low E-string slot of the nut, added a drop of "Zap" superglue, which made that slot a tad higher, and presto...no more buzz. This repairman is a creative genius in whose workshop I found a cello/sitar he'd made from two enameled cooking pots, a cello neck, a National-style aluminum cone, and some extra drone/buzz strings. Sounds great when he plays it...

Bark WOof

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Jul 99 - 08:35 PM

bARF wOOK,

iS THE STRING NOW GLUED INTO THE GROOVE? :-)

I just looked at this & I must be tired! Sorry---but it won't stop me from sending it.

Art

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: MMario
Date: 07 Jul 99 - 11:30 PM

problem spolved, so I can now add my two cents....

stop smoking guitars and you'll come down off that buzz

(sorry - I've been holding that in it seems like forever)

MMario

Subject: RE: Need help diagnosing a strange guitar buzz
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 08 Jul 99 - 02:52 AM

The theme of his art was to not put the string back into the groove until the glue dried (couple of minutes).

Marf Roffe