BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 08:26 PM

...... is where I am putting on my Moderator hat. Consider this to be a Mod post, and independent of my personal views on the subject at hand. While my views and sympathies are a matter of record as to the subject at hand, they do not enter into this post.

AR, your reference to the place you think "Ireland" is from, is very plainly an attempt to intimidate. You have crossed the line. For years I have tried to maintain that we will have heated exchanges on controversial subjects,such as this issue, but no intimidation. You have attempted, in a subtle way, to do that. You also violated the rule against massive cut 'n paste posts. The latter is deserving of a cautionary warning, the former is worthy of banning you. I am going to warn you now that these are not tolerated, under any circumstances, no matter how subtle.

This thread is closed. If anyone wants to discuss this subject any further, start a new thread. But if I witness any further attempts at intimidation, I will personally not rest until you are blocked.

Mick
-Forum Moderator_

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 08:12 PM

Let's get a couple of things straight. First off, I would never allow a thread to be closed because a Mod (me or any other) got their feelings hurt. If one decides to engage in debate, they must be ready for any heat generated by their views. It is what it means when you post in a forum. I have been around this place longer than any of you in the debate. Check my record and you will see that I am a person of strong opinion, and usually an informed opinion based on the facts as I see them. I have taken heat for my views and praise for my views, and had some of them outright ignored. If you think I dropped out of sight because any one of you intimidated me, or hurt my feelings, with your blazing knowledge and skewed facts, you need to let a little air out of yourself. You are puffed up way beyond reality. The fact is that it is the first half of March. If any of you were working Irish musicians instead of half baked sideline pundits, you would know that I barely have enough time to sleep, let alone be online. My schedule is very hectic until about the 28th or so of this month.

As to returning fire on your skewed, gratuitous, and outright false assertions, I told you up the thread that I am tired of it. I pointed out exactly what I think TB is, and why I think that K of H, is just a mouthpiece for a certain point of view. I have been through this so many times that I am not doing it again. It is my opinion that in their denial of any culpability on the part or the British government over 500 years, when the historical evidence is so clear as to remove any doubt of the subjugation of the Irish people and their culture, as well as the theft of their resources, the deliberate playing of the Orange Card, the abetting of the Orange paramilitary in their crimes against Catholics and their children, and their denial of the cruelty in their detention/interrogation/imprisonment without charge tactics as attested to by groups like Amnesty International,....... the very fact that these two refuse to acknowledge what lies at the root of this, is why it is not worth my time to respond to anymore of their prattle.

This ends my "member" comment and the next post..........

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 07:07 PM

Ah, dear old GuestAR. Decided if you are England, Scotland, Ireland or America yet? The old carbon footprint's going up by the minute.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:52 PM

GuestAR

I take it that by "all of us" you mean Guests - singly, in pairs or in battalions?

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM

leadf. did this "1948 a General Army Convention issued General Order No. 8 prohibiting "any armed action whatsoever" against the forces of the Republic of Ireland."not take care of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Campaign_(IRA)

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:22 PM

Or 40 screen cut and paste jobs?(a link provided)

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM

What happened to
However, this thread is limited to regular Mudcat participants who use consistent posting names.
????

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

The second article by Charles Moore:

When you're fighting terrorists, 'the vast majority' is not enough

Whether in Northern Ireland or among Britain's Muslims, extremists will exploit the reasonable majority, argues Charles Moore.

By Charles Moore

Last Updated: 7:20PM GMT 13 Mar 2009

Appearing on the BBC's Question Time on Thursday, I felt frustration. It seemed to me that good people, both on the panel and in the audience, had somehow been led into the wrong place.

In a sense, we were all agreed. Everyone condemned the killings of two soldiers and a policeman in Northern Ireland. And everyone, except for one Muslim member of the audience, condemned the demonstrators who had insulted the returning members of the Royal Anglian Regiment in Luton. Hearts were in the right place. But the arguments put forward took too much comfort from the concept of the "vast majority".

It is true – as was demonstrated across the province this week – that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want no return to violence. It is also true that the vast majority of British Muslims reject the notion that British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are, to use the disgusting words on the Luton placards, "cowards", "butchers" and "murderers". This truth is very important: if it were not true, we could not survive as a nation.

But it is not as comforting as people seem to think. All the Question Time panel, except for me, said that the demonstrations in Ulster proved that the "peace process" was secure. Yet the vast majority in Northern Ireland have always hated the violence. The two women who led the wildly popular Women for Peace movement there in the Seventies were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, but their campaign failed. That most people want peace is, sadly, not enough.

At the height of the Troubles, Sinn Fein never commanded more than 10 per cent of the popular vote, and active members of the IRA were numbered in hundreds. This did not stop the terrorists from gaining power way above their numbers. Indeed, you could say that is the whole point of terrorism – why would you need the terror if you had the majority support?

Similarly, tiny numbers of Muslims turn out to insult our troops or threaten those who draw cartoons of their prophet Mohammed. Most British Muslims have little difficulty in condemning such behaviour, let alone the London Tube bombings.

But what happens in both cases is that the extremists exploit something dark and dangerous within the community from which they come. Because of the history of violence in Irish nationalism, the IRA could always claim a certain authenticity. And when it did so, it could find some leading nationalist figures who would make excuses. There were some Catholic priests, even the odd cardinal, who would be equivocal in condemning terror, some mainstream politicians, including the crooked Irish prime minister Charles Haughey, who found it useful to give a bit of space to the men of violence.

Today, that ambiguous space is at the heart of government in Northern Ireland. Martin McGuinness has become the deputy first minister without ever forswearing the legitimacy of violence. The killers of Pc Carroll, whom he now condemns, were the inheritors of what he did 20 years ago. His quarrel with them seems only, to use a favourite word of his friend Gerry Adams, "strategic".

Among Muslims in Britain, such ambiguities can also be found. There is a strong strand in the current state of Islam which sees the religion as a political project. This creed, often called "Islamism", holds that no society is legitimate unless it imposes sharia – the law of God. There is no doctrine of tolerance, and a complete rejection of secular or Christian rule. Islamism spreads much more widely than the active advocates of violence. I have tried to get the Muslim Council of Britain, a sort of TUC of British Islam, to condemn the murder or kidnapping of British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it has always avoided doing so.

So when, as happened on Question Time, people say that the Luton demonstrators "have nothing to do with Islam" and so should not be described as Muslims in the media, they are missing a key fact. So are the people who say that Irish republican killers should be called "common criminals". The key fact is that the extremists do draw on wider political or religious traditions in forming their views; and their actions do resonate among many from those traditions.

If, as in Germany this week, a deranged young man walks into a school and shoots people, it is tragic, but it is not part of a movement. Terrorism committed by Muslims in the name of Islam (which forms – that phrase again – the vast majority of terrorist acts in the world since September 11, 2001), or by Irish republicans, is.

Since the problem is quite wide, we need, as a nation, to defend ourselves against it. We are choosing the wrong way of doing so. We so doubt our own legitimacy that we feel the need to delegate the task to our foes. Our Government feels that the only way to run Northern Ireland is to hand nearly half of it to Sinn Fein.

On the mainland, the Prevent programme, designed to combat violent extremism, often empowers and pays extremist Islamists on the grounds that only they can restrain their even wilder brethren. The shadow spokesman on these matters, Paul Goodman, has been trying for weeks to get the Government to tell him which Muslim groups are getting the money. So far, it can't or won't. For all we know, it could be offering fodder to a Trojan horse.

This appeasement quickly exacts a price. The extremists are much more aware than we are that the front line of the rule of law matters. So they demand that the front line be broken. Sinn Fein made sure, as a condition of entering government, that Tony Blair would abolish its most formidable adversary, the Royal Ulster Constabulary. One reason that three members of the security forces died this week is that we no longer have the police and security knowledge needed to prevent such attacks.

In facing militant Islam, the police, attacked for "institutional racism" and "Islamophobia", effectively seek "Muslim permission" for legitimate inquiries. This risks hampering proper police work.

Guess whom the Bedfordshire Police arrested in Luton. Not the demonstrators with their revolting insults, but the members of the soldier-supporting public who threw things at them.

Why, when you think about it, were we so angered by the Luton demonstration? First, because of human sympathy for the soldiers who have undergone so much. But I would suggest another reason – an impotent rage at our public authorities, who demand so much of those who defend the realm, but no longer understand what the defence of the realm entails.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 01:36 PM

Sorry about the links they seem to be faulty. Here's the first from Jenny McCartney:

Northern Ireland: Disgust alone will not stop the killing

One lesson of the Troubles is that violence makes its own momentum, says Jenny McCartney.

By Jenny McCartney

Last Updated: 6:52PM GMT 14 Mar 2009

The late tycoon Sir James Goldsmith once remarked that when a man marries his mistress he creates a vacancy. The same adage applies, historically speaking, when militant Irish republicans get hitched to a government. The vacancy in question has now been filled, with depressing commitment, by the Real IRA and its current fellow-travellers in the Continuity IRA, who between them last week were responsible for the murders of two young British Army soldiers and a senior policeman.

Many people have drawn comfort from the mass demonstrations of public revulsion in Northern Ireland that followed the murders. Peter Robinson, the DUP First Minister, and Martin McGuinness, the Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister, both professed their disgust at the killings (although McGuinness's muscular description of "traitors to the island of Ireland" for the killers of Stephen Carroll, the Northern Irish policeman, was notably more visceral than his reaction to the murder of the British Army soldiers).

We would, however, be dangerously naïve to believe that moral opposition alone, while welcome, will make the slightest difference to the capacity of dissident republicans to strike again. If there is one lesson of the Troubles, it is that unchecked violence slowly creates its own momentum, sucking in apologists, silencing opposition, and generating fresh hatreds and confusions.

When the Provisional IRA was established in 1969, amid a background of growing sectarian turbulence, my parents were living with three small children in a religiously mixed housing estate in Belfast. The overwhelming consensus there, at that time, was that the young Ian Paisley was a crazed religious demagogue, and the emergent Provisionals were despicable killers intent on dragging Northern Ireland into chaos. As the violence worsened, there were endless public protests against the murder campaigns of both loyalist and republican paramilitaries: the extremists prospered despite it. More than 30 years later, Paisley and the Provisional IRA leaders were garlanded as Northern Ireland's elder statesmen.

Stephen Carroll, whose funeral was held last Friday, was a policeman for 24 years, first in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and then – when that was disbanded – in the new Police Service of Northern Ireland. He was a Catholic, which makes his initial decision to join the RUC doubly brave, since Catholic policemen were particularly targeted for assassination by the Provisional IRA. During many years of Mr Carroll's exemplary career, Martin McGuinness would have been an unrepentant apologist for his murder.

McGuinness knows this, of course. He also knows that when he describes the Continuity IRA as "traitors to the island of Ireland" – by which he means traitors to the spirit of Irish unity – it does not quite make sense. Dissident republicans are certainly traitors to present Sinn Fein policy, and also to human decency, but their behaviour is perfectly in keeping with the mores of militant republicanism which McGuinness himself so long espoused.

"Physical force republicanism" has always annexed for itself the role of keeper of the sacred national flame, to be kept burning by "blood sacrifice" regardless of the wishes of the majority of Irish people. Patrick Pearse cared nothing for the more moderate views of ordinary Dubliners when he and his small band of rebels briefly seized control of the city in Easter 1916. Nor did McGuinness advocate that the IRA campaign be halted at a time when the majority of Northern Irish Catholics were voting for Sinn Fein's peaceful nationalist rival, the SDLP. For the Real and Continuity IRA and their supporters, Sinn Fein represents a "sell-out". The dissidents don't mind being hated, because they believe that they are right.

There is no denying that Ireland is a different place than it was in the 1970s: more prosperous and less politically feverish. But the dissidents' campaign will seek to generate fear, and fear has fast-spreading, unpredictable roots. Sinn Fein, newly muzzled by democracy, cannot destroy dissident republicanism in the IRA's traditional style, by sending men with balaclavas and hurley sticks round to disable future operations in brutally literal fashion. It will have to give its full backing to the dark arts of intelligence-gathering and rigorous surveillance, this time on behalf of the state. And that is likely to be an infinitely more difficult, tortured decision for Messrs McGuinness and Adams than any of their much-applauded statements last week.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 01:19 PM

When will the IRA do something about the State of War that has existed between the IRA and The Irish Free State (Now Eire)since partition in 1921 ?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 12:05 PM

Yes your right, Sands is an iconic figure, but do those who put him on that pedestal really know the history behind this man and his advocating of violence over peace.

He was an icon in Colombia until three people showed up and Colombians saw the type off people they looked upon as icons do not dersrve it.

Thankfully the internet is allowing people to get more information about this place we call home and the damage the various terrorist groups did to it. Information that tells how it is and was, to allow them to see the full picture not the blinkered biased views of what ever side.

All I can say prepare for a lot of icons getting dropped from their pedestal.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 11:24 AM

Interestingly the hunger strikers most famous participant the right hon B.Sands used his "death" not for peace but more killing,he wanted the young to come out and support his fight.

His brother in-law Michael McKevitt and sister Bernadette Sands McKevitt were founding members of the RIRA and was members of the The 32 County Sovereignty Movement {32CSM}. Which many say is the RIRA equivalent of SF. To be fair they deny this.

We also have to consider the position of Adams and McGuinness they are fighting to keep the dissidents in some sort of order, what will happen if they decide to get rid of Adams and McGuinness like Micheal Collins,

Ter the links are 404.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 10:24 AM

There's an interesting interview with Ruairi O'Bradaigh in today's Observer, probably the leading dissident in the North and his view on the actions of Adams and McGuinness.

Nothing particularly new or exciting in the piece, but there was one paragraph which caught my attention:

"In a chilling warning to young Catholics in Northern Ireland encouraged for the first time in decades by Sinn Féin to join the police, O'Bradaigh said: "I think that's a very unwise thing to urge people to do because that's obviously going to put them in harm's way. Which is a very grave responsibility to undertake. My advice would be 'don't join up' and I think it's wrong to encourage young people to join the British forces." O'Bradaigh's advice extends to those who vote for Sinn Féin and who have been encouraged by Adams and McGuinness to pass on information about the soldiers' and policeman's killers to the PSNI."

What worries me here is the veiled threat towards people voting for Sinn Féin. Intimidation is bad enough as it is, but when this behaviour extends towards people using democracy to achieve their aims peacefully, then we're heading to a bad place again. You have to feel for all those in the North brought up not knowing violence but who could be plunged back into it by these people.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:24 AM

This all could get quite interesting politically.Adams and McGuiness have argued the Provisionals into quite a strange place with the talk of "traitors" and asking people to turn suspects into the police. People are now being arrested. So what will the Provisionals' position be when the Real/Continuity boys atart all the political prisoner/on the blanket/hunger strike stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:15 AM

Keith A of Hertford - 14 Mar 09 - 12:56 PM

"You would never pretend to be someone else would you?"

Well spotted Keith, I somehow doubt very much whether the Guest,AR who has posted on this thread has a German mother and plays a Yari Guitar and has an interest in German and Danish Folk Ballads.

My bet, he's Comrac or one of the methadone munchers from that British Government sponsored 20ft container or Portakabin that was equipped with some second hand computers and off-loaded in NI in a honest attempt to occupy their minds, or at least what was left of their minds, get them off drugs and off the streets.

He's pulled exactly the same stunt before hijacking a former "above the line only" posting Guests identity to enter threads on Northern Ireland, then he was Guest,Al - of which there were two, one who was English and the other was an Ammerican who was into American fiddle music.

Two good pieces in todays Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/jennymccartney/4990915/Northern-Ireland-Disgust-alone-will-not-stop-the-killing.ht

&

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/4987210/When-youre-fighting-terrorists-the-vast-majority-is-not-enoug

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 05:48 AM

Assuming that IS you, Keith, I suggest you apply my last post to GuestAR to yourself.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

Captain B, Guest AR has been caught in a deception.
To get around the ban on non established guests he userped the identity of a respectable guest who never goes below the line.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 01:51 PM

I thought the questions raised by the answer to the original question by Skarpi,who is, if memory serves reasonably educated in Irish affairs,no I am not having a pop at Skarpi.

When answers to such a question are obviously biased does it really bode skarpi well for others to just agree and let it go?

On hind sight yes, it only gives poop stirrers a platform to spout their untruths and gives them credence rather than ridiculed for what they are doing.

WRT Skarpi what sort of answer did you want?

The guy that was arrested for being a suspect in the soldiers murders is well know, I have known of him from his days as a teenager,he is an ex IRA man that disagreed with the PIRA and SF stance of peace.

Remember the RIR homecoing parade in Belfast:

Now here is where people get confused,if the dissidents are not wanted, why would they be welcome to join in and supervise rep/nat marches?

This man marshalled protesters against the RIR homecoming parade, he stood side by side with ex IRA leaders and SF members, no real show of dissociation between the groups there.

Given these facts it is a blessing that we have had the response to the murders by both extremes in our society, wrt nat\rep and union\loyalist "ex" terror groups.

There are no simple answers to questions about Irish politics.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 01:49 PM

can someone please explain what is going on?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 01:23 PM

What you did was really chilling.
You chose a Guest who never goes below the line.
Then you start posting below the line to establish credibility.
And you started doing this last month.
You knew what was coming.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 01:16 PM

GuestAR,

As ever, you continue your policy of reading into anyone's post that which suits your own argument. Lay off, please.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

Well said MartinRyan. I imagine he will do the right thing and now leave this thread as he has been discredited by his own admission.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:56 PM

You would never pretend to be someone else would you?
You were allowed on here because you were an old established guest.
Here is one of your old posts.
Thread Name Subject Posted
[PM] GUEST,AR the folk revival (223* d) RE: the folk revival 04 Jul 07

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quoted from Brian Peters:

"Since several of you have mentioned Jeff Wesley, I can report that he came along to my folk club gig in Northampton last night, and sang a song written by Matt Armour, which Jeff had had to Anglicize in order to remove elements of Scots dialect."

Yes, it is proper to root out that awful Scots dialect whenever it crops up - polluting our good and pure English tongue like that!

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:55 PM

This thread (along with the mis-named Irish Peace Process one) is utterly depressing. Keith of Hereford yet again jams his stick into the local nest of republicans, romantic and otherwise, and watches as they hiss. As blood sports go, that's harmless enough - but in the end it's quite pointless. That he is clearly able to withstand the outrageous invective generated is no excuse. It's ultimately pointless.

The only one who emerges with any credit is poor skarpi.

Give it a rest.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:29 PM

The link in my 08.22 AM post leads to the same list that AR has copied.
The post directly linked is a study of the list showing that less than 80 were inocent victims.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:25 PM

AR, Oakville was a liar like you.
He lied that I had made unpleasant posts like you lied about T.
My post in his name was the absolute truth. He could not find any such posts.
The only falsehood was that he was not ashamed of his lies.
Again just like you.

I did not expect anyone to believe such a post.
It was obvious what i was doing.
I have access to many computers on various ISPs

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:24 PM

Here's me thinking you only wanted a quick and concise answer to your question...

Sorry Skarpi there are seldom quick answers to such questions. How do ya do smilies?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: skarpi
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:21 PM

" And I just asked , who are they ? not why , or what if or
it should have been .


kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:14 PM

Here is another link for those who wish to educate themselves and just maybe we will not read how people get their knowledge of Ireland based on rep who hid out in America.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eTRIo1dic9EC&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=how+many+Catholics+killed+by+Republican+paramilitaries++in+ire


Interesting point on the name the terrorists give themselves they claim to be an army and yet whinge when military tactics are used against them,not one person has answered the question as to why.

The thing our plastics dissidents has to realise,well they do but they just ignore it, is they simply do not have the support and as the election figures show about 500 people voted or showed support for dissidents. Next there will be songs about the brave 500 who carried on. Carried on the stupid hatred and violence.

BTW AR you do not have to trawl through other posts to ascertain Ter was a soldier in N.Ireland he told us that much in his replies to you.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 09:57 AM

But you can not produce that post can you.
It is a lie.
You are completely discredited.
Time for you to change names again.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:22 AM

Catholics killed by army 258
Catholics killed by Republican paramilitaries 395

But, this post shows the army to be responsible for the deaths of less than 80 people who were non combatant or not engaged in crime, irrespective of religeon.
thread.cfm?threadid=91818&messages=457#1754202
Scroll up from the post to see the impeccable source of the data.

Republican paramilitaries were therefor responsible for the deaths of more than FIVE TIMES as many innocent Catholic men, women and children than the army was.

But, there were about 20 soldiers to every one volunteer.
So,the average volunteer was ONE HUNDRED TIMES as guilty as the average soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 08:11 AM

A question for you Guest,AR, looking through your "British List of Shame", which is about one tenth the length of the "Republican Paramilitaries List of Shame" and one third the length of the "Loyalist Paramilitaries List of Shame" a thought struck me, that prompts me to ask.

Is the IRA, be it – Official – Provisional – Continuity – Real – Delusional – Imaginary – the only "Army" that "declares" a "war" and then complains when its "soldiers" get killed by the other side??

Pathetic or What!!

While not so good at taking on the British Army, your "hero's within the ranks of Irish Republican Army" are pretty good at taking on a 5ft tall mother of ten and torturing and murdering her – Mind you it took twelve of those "heroes" to do that, and then to cap it all off, what did one of your "Bold, Brave Volunteers" do, no doubt in your opinion in heroic style? Having tortured her by cutting off her fingers before they shot her this "hero" steals her jewelry.

If that's the sort of thing you're proud of pal – dig out.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:26 AM

Big Mick, in my 3 line post I gently pointed out a misconception in your post.
You posted an angry reply and have not responded to me since.
Mick, please do not blame the messenger.

It is a very common misconception because the paramilitaries have relentlessly promulgated that lie from the start.

But it was always a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:20 AM

Guest AR/Al,
You rebuked me with "We all want peace, not just in Ireland, on here too "
But now the balaclava is off and you reveal yourself to be one of the dissidents who wants to destroy the peace process and restart the war.

Why are you here pushing your lies?
The clue is in this post, "The Irish people will always be grateful to the American nation for their support through the tough times, they delivered and it will never be forgotten."

Mudcat is widely read among Irish Americans.
The paramilitaries recocgnise that and delegate people to keep their lies and myths going.
That is why we get all these contributors who are not at all interested in music.
Why else would they be here?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:11 AM

Palm trees and coconuts in Iceland?
How does that work Skarpi?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:26 PM

You know the wee blue clicky thing save the bandwidth and use it.

A few facts for you and your outdated views, results for the last elections 2003 sorry can't blue clicky it.

Here are the results
*Gerry Adams MP (SF) 6029 (17.8%)
+Sue Ramsey (SF) 4715 (14.0%)
Paul Maskey (SF) 4368 (12.9%)
Jennifer McCann (SF) 4265 (12.6%)
*Fra McCann (SF) 4254 (12.6%)
*Diane Dodds (DUP) 3661 (10.8%)
*Alex Attwood (SDLP) 3036 (9.0%)
Margaret Walsh (SDLP) 1074 (3.2%)
Seán Mitchell (People Before Profit Alliance) 774 (2.3%)
Louis West (UUP) 558 (1.7%)
John Lowry (WP) 434 (1.3%)
Geraldine Taylor (RSF) 427 (1.3%)
Daniel McGuinness (Alliance) 127 (0.4%)
Rainbow George (Make Politicians History) 68 (0.2%)

*Elected in 2003 from West Belfast
+Appointed to 2003-07 Assembly to fill a vacancy SF 23,631 (69.9%, +4.9%) 5 seats (+1)
SDLP 4,110 (12.2%, -6.9%) 1 seat
DUP 3,661 (10.8%, +3.1%) (-1)
People Before Profit 774 (2.3%)
UUP 558 (1.7%, -1.9%)
WP 434 (1.3%, +0.05%)
RSF 427 (1.3%)
Alliance 127 (0.4%, +0.1%)
Rainbow George 68 (0.2%)

Electorate 50,792
Votes cast 34,238 (67.4%); spoilt votes 448 (1.3%)
Valid votes 33,790; quota 4,828

23,000 support SF as opposed to maybe 500 in total actively declaring support for more militant means.

Taken from another forum the above was not my work but my education to real facts.

Go on figure out how many votes were for the dissidents.

You are telling us such a small amount have full support grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:25 PM

Aww diddums, how sweet of you GuestAR.

I'd put up your Republican paramilitary's LIST OF SHAME in reply but I don't think the bandwidth retrictions would take too kindly to a list of names and circumstances covering the deaths of over 2000 odd people, mostly Irish born men, women and children. Who were those Irish republican "vultures" supposed to be protecting again AR??

Care to tell us all about your brave vultures abduction, torture and murder of Jean McConville, Al.

Or seeing how this is a music site, what about a wee song about the Omagh Bombing, that was a "Real" IRA spectacular wasn't it? Something for you to be really proud of - must have taken "real" guts to pull that one off - is that how they got their name??

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:02 PM

Before you go to sleep tonight Ireland,run your eyes over this lot.

It's time the world saw the full truth of the murders in the North of Ireland by British soldiers and British so- called policemen. They were paid to keep the peace. This is what they did.

And you ask why Irish republicans stand up against British rule ?

Irish Republican Volunteers, we honour and respect your worthy fight.

THE BRITISH LIST OF SHAME.

Robert Anderson 25 years, Mourne View Park, Newry, shot dead along with Sean Ruddy and Thomas James McLaughlin by British soldiers in Newry, Co. Down, on 24 October 1971. The soldiers were on the roof of a building overlooking a bank and shot the three men as they attempted to rob the bank.

Declan Arthurs 21 years, Cappagh, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Daniel Barrett 15years, Havana Court, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead sitting on the garden wall of his home on 9 July 1981, by members of the British army's Welsh Guards.

Antoine MacGiolla Bhrighde 27 years, IRA activist, from County Derry, shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Kesh, County Fermanagh, on 2 December 1984.

John Boyle 16 years, shot dead in a graveyard near his home, at Dunloy, County Antrim, by members of an undercover British army unit on 11 July 1978.

Eamonn Bradley 23 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was unarmed when he was shot dead by British soldiers on 25 August 1982. He was coming out of bar in the Shantallow area of the city.

Francis Bradley 20 years, Toome, County Antrim, shot dead by undercover British soldiers crossing a field at the back of a farmhouse outside Toome on 18 February 1986.

Seamus Bradley 19 years, Creggan, Derry city, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers in the Creggan area early on 31 July 1972. He died a short time later. The shooting occurred during 'Operation Motorman,' a British military plan to saturate and take over nationalist areas of the North from which they had been more or less excluded since the Bloody Sunday shootings in January 1972.

Charles Breslin 20 years, Strabane, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with Michael Devine (22) and his brother David Devine (17) by undercover British soldiers, on 23 February 1985. The shootings occurred in the early hours of the morning as the three men were returning to an arms dump. The undercover soldiers were aware of the arms dump after being tipped off by an informer.

Denis Brown 28 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with two other IRA activists, William Mealy (30) and James Mulvenna (28), by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. The three men were killed in an ambush as they approached a post office vehicle depot in north Belfast. William Hanna (28), who drove into the fire zone, was also shot and killed by the soldiers.

James Brown 18 years, Creggan, Derry City, killed along with James English (19) when British soldiers deliberately drove their armoured vehicle into a crowd of people in Derry on 19 April 1981.

James Bryson 25 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot and fatally wounded by undercover British soldiers in Ballymurphy on 31 August 1973. He died in hospital on 22 September 1973. Patrick Mulvenna (19), also an IRA activist was shot dead in the same incident. Both men were getting out of a car when they were shot.

Sean Burns 21 years, Lurgan, County Armagh, an IRA activist, he was shot dead in a car by an undercover RUC unit outside Lurgan on 11 November 1982. Two other IRA activists, Eugene Toman (21) and Gervase McKerr (31), were also killed in the shooting. The three men were travelling in the car outside Lurgan when the shooting occurred.

Brian Campbell 19 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with Colm McGirr (23) by undercover British soldiers on 4 December 1983. The shooting occurred just outside Coalisland as both men approached an IRA arms dump.

Joseph Campbell 17years, Havana Street Ardoyne, North Belfast, when he was shot dead in Ardoyne on 11 June 1972 by members of the British Army's Royal Regiment of Wales.

Teddy Campbell 57 years, from the Markets area of Belfast. A Republican political prisoner sentenced for possession of weapons in 1972, he suffered several severe beatings in Long Kesh jail. As a result of the beatings and subsequent long-term neglect he was released from prison in poor health. His death on 3 May 1974 in Musgrave Hospital his relatives believe was due to mistreatment by the authorities.

Tony Campbell 19 years, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers along with Ambrose Hardy (26), Brendan Maguire (33) and James Loughran (35) on the New Lodge Road on 3 February 1973. The latter three men were all civilians. They were all shot by soldiers from an observation post on top of high-rise flats. The British army shooting followed a drive by shooting by unionist/loyalist paramilitaries only moments earlier and only yards away. Three people died in that shooting; James Fusco (58), James Sloan (19) and James McCann (18).

Stan Carberry 34 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he travelled in a car along the Falls Road, near Beechmount, on 13 November 1972.

Rodney Carroll 22 years, Armagh City, County Armagh, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover RUC unit along with Seamus Grew (31), on 12 December 1982. Both men were in a car that was chased by the RUC unit, who opened fire on the men after it was forced to a halt.

James (Jimmy) Casey 57 years, Derry City, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers on 24 July 1972. Mr Casey was in a car with three others returning home from a night out at Greencastle, County Donegal, when their vehicle was fired at by British soldiers in an observation post.

Peter Clancy 19 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in the car park of a Catholic church outside Coalisland on 16 February 1992. Three other IRA activists, Sean O'Farrell (23), Kevin O'Donnell and Daniel Vincent (20) were also shot dead in the same incident. The four young men were involved in an attack on Coalisland RUC barracks, and afterwards retreated to the church car park where a large unit of undercover soldiers were waiting for them.

Peter Cleary 25 years, County Armagh, an IRA activist, he was arrested, beaten and shot dead by undercover British soldiers while visiting his girl friend near Forkhill, south Armagh, on 15 April 1976.

Kevin Coen 28 years, Sligo town, County Sligo, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers operating in unmarked cars near the Fermanagh/Cavan border on 10 January 1975.

Joan Connolly 50 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, shot dead near her home by British soldiers on 9 August 1971. Three other people were also shot and killed by the soldiers in the same incident; Daniel Taggart (44), Noel Philips, and Joseph Murphy (41), who died from his wounds on 22 August 1971. The British soldiers were firing from observation posts overlooking the Ballymurphy area.

Michael Connors 13 years, and John Maughan 19 years, both shot dead in Church Lane, near Belfast City centre, on 1 March 1972, by members of a joint British army and Royal Ulster Constabulary patrol. Michael Connors and John Maughan were both members of Ireland's travelling community and were living at a site in the Belfast area at the time of their deaths.

Joseph Cunningham 26 years, Rathcoole, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by the RUC on the outskirts of north Belfast on 10 February 1972.

Seamus Cusack 27 years, Bogside, Derry City, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers in the Bogside area during street disturbances. He died shortly after he was admitted into Letterkenny Hospital.

Manus Deery 15 years, Limewood Street, Derry City, shot dead 20 May 1972 by members of the British Army firing from the city walls.

John Dempsey 16 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, shot dead on 8 July 1981, by members of the British army.

Sammy Devenney 42 years, Bogside, Derry City, badly beaten by a number of RUC members who entered his home on 19 April 1969. He died from his injuries on 16 July 1971. Several members of Mr Devenney's family, including his children, where also beaten in the attack.

David Devine 17 years, Strabane, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with his brother Michael Devine (22) and Charles Breslin (20) by undercover British soldiers, on 23 February 1985. The shootings occurred in the early hours of the morning as the three men were returning to an arms dump. The undercover soldiers were aware of the arms dump after being tipped off by an informer.

Michael Devine 22 years, Strabane, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with his brother David Devine (17) and Charles Breslin (20) by undercover British soldiers, on 23 February 1985. The shootings occurred in the early hours of the morning as the three men were returning to an arms dump. The undercover soldiers were aware of the arms dump after being tipped off by an informer.

Francis Dodds 32 years, Locan Street, Beechmount, Belfast. A republican political prisoner he suffered several severe beatings in Long Kesh prison while on remand there in September 1972. Sentenced to 14 years for possession of explosion in March 1973, the beatings he received left him with circulation problems in his legs. Requests to prison doctors to treat his ailments and the accompanying pain were dealt with by proscriptions of aspirin. The neglect led to his untimely death in Long Kesh on 9 September 1973.

Daniel Doherty 23 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Gransha Hospital, Derry, on 6 December 1984. Another IRA activist, William Fleming (19) was shot dead in the same incident.

Patrick Doherty 31 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; John Duddy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Gerald Donaghy (17), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

Gerard Donaghy 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; John Duddy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

Michael Donnelly 21 years, Cavendish Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the British Army's Royal Artillery Regiment. The shooting occurred at Leeson Street in the Lower Falls Road in the early morning of 9 August 1980, he died shortly afterwards.

Seamus Donnelly 19 years, Cappagh, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Michael Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Tony Doris 22 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Coagh, Co. Tyrone, on 3 June 1991. Mr Doris and two other IRA activists, Peter Ryan (35), and Lawrence McNally (39), were driving into Coagh when soldiers opened fire from hidden positions using heavy machine guns.

John Dougal 16 years, Springhill Avenue, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, shot dead in Springhill housing estate on 9 July 1972, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. A short time after John's death soldiers firing from the same positions shot dead Margaret Gargan (13), Father Noel Fitzpatrick (a Catholic priest), Patrick Butler (38) and David McCafferty (14). Several others were also serious injured. Subsequently the tragedy became know as "Springhill massacre".

Joe Downey 23 years, Markets, south Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 21 July 1972. The soldiers responsible were in observation posts in the gas works. Unionist/loyalist gunmen were also firing into the area at the time.

John Duddy 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

Henry Duffy 45 years, Benevenagh Gardens, Creggan, Derry, struck by a plastic bullets fired by a member of the British Army's Royal Anglian Regiment, on the morning of 22 May 1981. He died later that day in the Royal Victoria Hospital, Belfast.

Patrick Duffy 50 years, Derry City, shot dead by undercover British soldiers in an unoccupied house in the city on 24 November 1978. The soldiers had concealed themselves in the house to observe an IRA arms dump there. They shot Mr Duffy after he entered the house.

Paul Duffy 23 years, Stewartstown, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers near a derelict farm house near Ardboe, County Tyrone, on 26 February 1978.

Seamus Duffy 15 year-old, shot-dead by a plastic bullet fired from a passing RUC patrol on August 9th 1989 while returning home from an internment night bonfire in the New Lodge area of North Belfast. At the time of Seamus' killing there was no rioting. Immediately after his death the RUC said that they would appoint a 'top policeman' to investigate the exact circumstances of the death as they believed that Seamus did not die as a result of being hit by a plastic bullet.

Patrick Elliot 19 years, Broadway, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot dead by British soldiers coming out of a chip shop he tried to rob on the Andersonstown Road. No firearm was found on his body.

Mairead Farrell 31 years, Andersonstown, an IRA activist, she was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988. Daniel McCann (30) and Sean Savage (24), also IRA activists, were shot and killed during the same incident.

Gerard Fennell 28 years, Twinbrook, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers at Twinbrook on 8 November 1974. The soldiers responsible were concealed in hedges over looking the Stewartstown Road and shot him as he tried to hijack a bus.

Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick 40 years, a Catholic priest in Ballymurphy, west Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers firing from concealed positions overlooking Ballymurphy, on 9 July 1972. Fr. Fitzpatrick was praying over a wounded man when he was shot. Also killed in the Ballymurphy area that day by British army snipers were, Patrick Butler (39), Margaret Gargan (13), John Dougal (16) and David McCafferty (14).

William Fleming 19 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Gransha Hospital, Derry, on 6 December 1984. Another IRA activist, Daniel Doherty (23) was shot dead in the same incident.

Martin Forsythe 19 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover RUC officers in Belfast city centre on 24 October 1971.

Bernard Fox 16 years, from Etna Drive, Ardoyne, North Belfast, he was shot dead on 4 December 1972, by members of the British Army's Light Infantry Regiment.

Thomas Friel 21 years, Creggan Heights, Derry City, hit by a rubber bullet near his home late on the evening of 17 May 1973. He died in hospital on 22 May 1973. Members of the British Army's Royal Artillery Regiment carried out the shooting.

James (Jim) Gallagher 20 years, Derry City, shot dead sitting in a bus by a British soldier as it passed an Army barrack in Derry on 17 May 1976. The soldier was in an observation post and shot Mr Gallagher as he sat upstairs at the back of the bus.

Margaret Gargan 13 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, she was shot dead by British soldiers firing from concealed positions overlooking Ballymurphy, on 9 July 1972. Also killed in the Ballymurphy area that day by British army snipers were, Patrick Butler (39), Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick (40), John Dougal (16) and David McCafferty (14).

Stephen Geddis 10 years, St. Comgall's Row, Divis Flats, Falls Road, west Belfast, struck on the head by a plastic-bullet on 28 August 1975, fired by a member of the British army's Royal Anglian Regiment. The child died in hospital 2 days later on 30 August.

Gerard Gibson 16 years, Norglen Parade, Turf Lodge, West Belfast, shot dead on 11 July 1972, by members of the British Army's Royal Green Jackets.

Hugh Gilmore 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), John Duddy (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

Michael Anthony Gormley 25 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Tony Gough 24 years, Shantallow, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the city on 22 February 1986.

Seamus Grew 31 years, Armagh City, County Armagh, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover RUC unit along with Rodney Carroll (22), on 12 December 1982. Both men were in a car that was chased by the RUC unit, who opened fire on the men after it was forced to a halt.

Edward Hale 25 years, Twinbrook, west Belfast, shot dead by undercover soldiers during a robbery of a bookmakers on the Falls Road, on 13 January 1990. The soldiers also killed two other men, Peter Thompson (23) and John McNeill (43). The undercover soldiers were apparently aware of the robbery well in advance and waited for them to emerge from the building before they carried out the shooting. None of the men were armed.

William Hanna 28, Ballysillan, north Belfast, shot dead by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. Mr Hanna was driving home when he drove into an ambush set up by the soldiers at Ballysillan Post Office Depot. Three IRA activists were killed in the same firing. They were Denis Brown 28 years, William Mealy (30) and James Mulvenna (28), all from Ardoyne.

Ambrose Hardy 26 years, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers along with Tony Campbell (19), Brendan Maguire (33) and James Loughran (35) on the New Lodge Road on 3 February 1973. The latter three men were all civilians. They were all shot by soldiers from an observation post on top of high-rise flats.

Gerard Harte 29 years, Carrickmore area, Co Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Drumnakilly, County Tyrone, on 30 August 1988. His brother Martin Harte (21) and Brian Mullin (26), both IRA activists, were also killed in the shooting. The three men were in a car when soldiers, using heavy machine guns, fired on it.

Martin Harte 21years, Carrickmore area, Co Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Drumnakilly, County Tyrone, on 30 August 1988. His brother Gerard Harte (29) and Brian Mullin (26), both IRA activists, were also killed in the shooting. The three men were in a car when soldiers, using heavy machine guns, fired on it.

Seamus Harvey 20 years, Drumuckavall, south Armagh, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers on 16 January 1977. Mr Harvey and several others were examining an abandoned car outside Crossmaglen when British soldiers concealed in surrounding fields opened fire on them.

Michael Hayes 27 years, Spamount Street, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 1 October 1973. Mr Hayes had been out with friends on the evening of 30 September and was making his way home afterwards when he was shot.

Desmond Healey 14 years, Lenadoon, West Belfast, shot on 9 August 1971, in Lenadoon by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment.

Denis Heaney 21 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover soldier in Derry, on 10 June 1978. The soldier was in an unmarked car that Mr Heaney another man had tried to hijack. Both were unaware of the soldier's identity when they approached the car.

Daniel Hegarty 15years, from Swilly Gardens, Creggan, Derry City, when he was shot dead on 31 July 1972 by members of the British Army's Royal Scottish Guards, in Creggan Heights.

John Hemsworth 37, on July the 7th 1997 John Hemsworth made his way home through the Clonard area of west Belfast from an evening out with friends. He was stopped and without reason immediately set upon by several RUC members. On New Year's Day John died from a brain haemorrhage.

Kevin Heatley 13 years, Second Avenue, Derrybeg estate, Newry, Co. Down, shot dead on 28 February 1973, by members of the British Army's Royal Hampshire Regiment.

Henry Hogan 21 years, Dunloy, County Antrim, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover soldiers following a gun battle at Dunloy on 21 February 1984. Declan Martin (18), also an IRA activist, was shot dead at the same time.

Anthony Hughes 36 years, Caledon, County Armagh, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Mr Hughes was driving towards the barracks just as undercover British soldiers ambushed a party of IRA members. His brother was also seriously wounded in the shooting. Eight IRA activists were killed in the ambush; Michael Anthony Gormley 25 Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29).

Michael Hughes 16 years, Derrybeg estate, Newry, Co. Down, was shot dead on 18th October 1974, by members of the British Army's Royal Marine Commando Regiment.

Charles Irvine 16 years, Divis Flats, West Belfast, shot on 13 July 1975, in his car on the Falls Road, by members of the British Army's Scot's Guards Regiment. He died a short time later in hospital.

John Johnston 59 years, Derry City, shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. He died on 16 June 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Duddy (17).

Pearse Jordan was shot-dead by the RUC 25th November 1992 on the Falls Road Belfast. Pearse Jordan was driving alone along the Falls Road when the car in which he was travelling was rammed from behind by one of a number of RUC covert vehicles that had been following him. As he exited the car he was shot three times without warning in the back falling to the ground.

Albert Kavanagh 18 years, Cavendish Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by members of the RUC after he was captured during a commercial bomb attack on 4 March 1972. The shooting took place at Boucher Road in south Belfast. Mr Kavanagh was unarmed.

Colm Keenan 19 years, Derry city, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Bogside area of the city on 14 March 1972. Eugene McGrillan (18), also an IRA activist, was shot dead around the same time. Their deaths followed a British army raid into the Bogside late in the evening. A gun battle ensued between IRA members and the soldiers, however the IRA said later that the two dead men were not involved in gun battle.

Eugene Kelly 25 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Patrick Kelly (30), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Michael Kelly 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

Patrick Kelly 30 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), James Lynagh (31), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Paul Kelly 17 years, Whiterock Crescent, west Belfast, shot dead in a stolen car at Kennedy Way roundabout on 15 January 1985, by members of the British army's Ulster Defence Regiment.

Kevin Kilpatrick 21 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by the UDR near Coagh, County Tyrone, as he attempted to drive through a checkpoint on 13 May 1973.

Eamonn Lafferty 20 years, Creggan, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the city on 18 August 1971.

John Laverty 20 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, accosted by British soldiers, beaten and then shot dead on 11 August 1971. Mr Laverty had been with his younger brother that evening visiting a sister in Turf Lodge. On their way home they could hear the sounds of whistles and the rattle of bin lids; a warning at that time that British troops were in the area. The two young men decided to split up. John was later found dead in a derelict corporation yard at the top of the Whiterock Road. Mr Joseph Corr was also shot and fatally wounded that evening by British soldiers in the same area. He died on the 27 August 1971.

Danny Lennon 23 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he drove a car along Finaghy Road North. The British soldiers were in an armoured vehicle when they spotted Mr Lennon. They immediately opened fire on the car, firing over 60 shots during a short chase. After Mr Lennon was killed the car went out of control and hitting a mother and her three children. The children, Joanne Maguire (9), John Maguire (3) and Andrew Maguire (6 weeks), were all killed.

The failure of the British authorities to release the results of the children's autopsies has resulted in much speculation that they too may have been shot by the British army.

Julie Livingstone 14 years, Carrigart Avenue, Lenadoon, west Belfast, was struck on the head by a plastic bullet at Stewartstown Road on 12 May 1981. She died the following day in hospital. A member of the British Army's Prince of Wales Regiment fired the bullet.

Seamus Ludlow was abducted and murdered by armed Loyalists and British soldiers outside the town of Dundalk on the night of 1st. and 2nd. May 1976. He was last seen thumbing a lift home from the pub at around midnight before he disappeared.

Despite false claims, that were encouraged by the Irish Gardai, that Seamus Ludlow had been murdered by the IRA because he was an informer, it is now known that both the Gardai and the RUC in the North of Ireland were aware at least in 1979, if not even earlier, that the killers were in fact Loyalists. They knew that they included at least two locally recruited members of the British Army.

Jim Lynagh 31 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), Padraig McKearney (32), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Patrick McAdorey 24 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in Ardoyne on 9 August 1971. Internment without trial was introduced in the early hours of 9 August, and the Ardoyne area like many nationalist areas in the North of Ireland were entered by large forces of British troops on raid and arrest operations. During the resistance to these operations scores of people were killed or injured by British forces.

Aidan McAnespie 24 years, Aughnacloy, County Tyrone, he was shot dead by a British soldier as he crossed the border into the South of Ireland on 21 February 1988. Mr McAnespie had been on his way to play Gaelic football when a British soldier in an observation post shot him. The soldier claimed he was moving the machine gun inside the post when his hand, which he said was wet, slipped on the trigger. The soldier was later charged and acquitted of manslaughter.

The family and Friends of Mr McAnespie said he was constantly harassed by the soldiers at the checkpoint and threatened he would be shot. The soldier acquitted was allowed to return to the British army.

Daniel McAreavey 21 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 6 October 1972.

George McBrearty 24 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover British soldier in the city on 28 May 1981. Another IRA activist, Charles Maguire (20), was shot dead in the same incident.

Nora McCabe was shot-dead by the RUC on the 8th July 1981 at 7.45am as she left her home in Linden Street off the Falls Road for the corner shop to buy cigarettes.

Patrick McCabe 16 years, Duneden Park, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead in Ardoyne on 27 March 1973, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment.

David McCafferty 14 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers firing from concealed positions overlooking Ballymurphy, on 9 July 1972. Also killed in the Ballymurphy area that day by British army snipers were, Patrick Butler (39), Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick (40), John Dougal (16) and Margaret Gargan (13).

Daniel McCann 30 years, Andersonstown, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988. Mairead Farrell (31) and Sean Savage (24), also IRA activists, were shot and killed during the same incident.

Joseph McCann 25 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Markets area of south Belfast, on 15 April 1972. Mr McCann was making his way along a street when soldiers using a heavy machine gun fired him on. The soldiers had been tip off about Mr McCann's visit to the area and fired on him as soon as he was spotted.

Michael McCartan 16 years, Artana Street, Ormeau Road, south Belfast, shot by a member of the RUC on 23 July 1980. He died in hospital at1.30am on 24 July 1980.

Martin McCaughey 23 years, Galbally, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers outside Loughgall, County Armagh, on 9 October 1990. Desmond Grew, also an IRA activist, was killed in the same incident. Mr Grew's brother, Seamus Grew, was shot dead by undercover RUC members in 1982.

Stephen McConomy 11 years, Dove Gardens, Derry City, hit by a plastic bullet on 16 April 1982, fired by a member of the British Army's Royal Anglian Regiment. He died in hospital three days later on 19 April.

Danny McCooey 20, died on May 20 1977, after being set upon by British soldiers in Castle Street, as he returned from a night out at a city centre snooker hall with a friend.

Eamonn McCormick 17 years, Glenalina Road, Ballymurphy estate, West Belfast, shot and seriously injured on Halloween night 1971, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. He died in hospital nearly three months later on 16 January 1972.

Gerald McDade 23 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers after his arrest in Ardoyne on 21 December 1971. Mr McDade was in a social club when soldiers entered and arrested a number of men and took then outside. The men were line up against a wall. The British authorities claimed Mr McDade tried to escape when he was shot, however witnesses to the shooting disputed this. In November 1974 Mr McDade's brother James died in a premature explosion in England. He was also a member of the IRA.

James McDaid 30 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he made his way across a field near the Derry/Donegal border on 29 December 1972. He was unarmed when he was shot.

Michael McDaid 20 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

Anthony McDowell 13 years, Duneden Park, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead on 19 April 1973, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment.

Seamus McElwaine 25 years, Scotstown, County Monaghan, an IRA activist, he was shot dead after he was capture by undercover British soldiers in County Fermanagh, on 26 April 1986. Mr McElwaine had been on the run for several years after escaping from Long Kesh prison in 1983. On the night he was killed he and another IRA activist were examining explosives when they were fired on. Mr McElwaine was hit and captured, the other man, who was also hit, managed to hid until day break when he too was arrested. He said later he heard the soldiers questioning Mr McElwaine for some time before they killed him.

Annette McGavigan 14 years, Drumcliff Avenue, Derry City, shot dead by a British soldier in a street in the city on 6 September 1971.

Eugene McGillan 18 years, Derry city, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Bogside area of the city on 14 March 1972. Colm Keenan (19), also an IRA activist, was shot dead around the same time. Their deaths followed a British army raid into the Bogside late in the evening. A gun battle ensued between IRA members and the soldiers, however the IRA said later that the two dead men were not involved in gun battle.

James McGrillan 25 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Springfield Road area on 15 February 1976.

Colm McGirr 23 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with Brian Campbell (19) by undercover British soldiers on 4 December 1983. The shooting occurred just outside Coalisland as both men approached an IRA arms dump.

Kevin McGovern 19 year, Kinawley, County Fermanagh, shot dead by the RUC at Cookstown, County Tyrone, on 29 September 1991. Mr McGovern, a student, the RUC said was shot as he attempted to throw something at them. Nothing was found. It was revealed the RUC had staked out the area hoping to catch an IRA bombing unit.

The RUC member who shot the youth was later charged with murder. He was acquitted at trial, where the judge said that although the officer 'acted honestly and mistakenly in self-defence, he did not act reasonably.'

Bernard McGuigan 41 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

Doreen McGuinness 16 years, Distillery Street, west Belfast, shot in a stolen car on 1 January 1980, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment. She died shortly after being admitted to hospital.

Peter McGuinness 41 years, Bawnmore, Shore Road, north Belfast, struck by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary on 9 August 1981. He died minutes later in the living room of his home.

Robert McGuinness 22 years, Brandywell, Derry City, he was shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers as he walked home in the early hours of 22 June 1973. He died four days later on 26 June. Residents said Mr McGuinness was unarmed when a soldier from inside an armour car shot him.

Sean McIlvenna 33 years, originally from Belfast living in Dundalk, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by members of the RUC near Blackwatertown, County Armagh, on 17 December 1984.

William McKavanagh 21 years, Markets, south Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 11 August 1971. Mr Kavanagh with several other men when taking fish from a burnt out shop. Seeing British soldiers the men panicked and fled.

Patricia McKay 20 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, she was shot dead by British soldiers on 30 September 1972. There had been several shooting incidents in the Falls Road area earlier on the same day Mrs McKay was shot; a British soldier and an IRA volunteer were killed in these exchanges. Following the funeral of a victim of sectarian violence, who was also a republican, the shooting resumed, and Mrs McKay was killed at this time. She was unarmed when she was shot.

Padraig McKearney 32 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), Jim Lynagh (31), and Gerard O'Callaghan (29). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Sean McKee 17 years, Ladbrook Drive, Ardoyne, North Belfast, shot dead in Ardoyne on 18 May 1973, by members of the British Army's Parachute Regiment.

Francis McKeown 43 years, Coolnasilla Park South, Glen Road, west Belfast, shot and fatally wounded on 15 July 1972, at Lenadoon by members of the British Army. He died in hospital the following day. Francis McKeown was married with six children, whose ages at the time of his death ranged from just six months to thirteen years old.

James McKernan 29 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers on the Andersonstown Road on 14 September 1986.

Gervase McKerr 31 year-old Gervaise McKerr, was shot-dead by the RUC on November 11th 1982 along with two other men Eugene Toman (21), and Sean Burns also 21 at Tullygally Road in Lurgan Co Armagh. These killings, and those of three other men in the north Armagh area also by the RUC three weeks later, became known as shoot-to-kill incidents.

Trevor McKibbin 19 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in Ardoyne on 19 April 1977. At his funeral unionist/loyalist paramilitaries detonated a car bomb amongst the mourners, killing two people and injuring dozens of others.

Gerard McKinney 35 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).

William McKinney 26 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William Nash (19), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59).

Thomas James McLaughlin 27 years, Newry, shot dead along with Robert Anderson and Sean Ruddy by British soldiers in Newry, Co. Down, on 24 October 1971. The soldiers were on the roof of a building overlooking a bank and shot the three men as they attempted to rob the bank.

Samuel McLarnon 47 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, shot dead in his home by the RUC on 15 August 1969. The street where Mr McLarnon lived was being invaded by RUC and unionist mobs at the time of the shooting.

Neil McMonagle 24 years, Derry, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover British soldier in the city on 2 February 1983. The shooting occurred after Mr McMonagle and another spotted a man in a car acting suspiciously in the Shantallow area. When they approached the man he pulled out a gun and when tackled he shot Mr McMonagle dead and wounded his friend.

John McNeill 43 years, Oldpark, north Belfast, shot dead by undercover soldiers during a robbery of a bookmakers on the Falls Road, on 13 January 1990. The soldiers also killed two other men, Peter Thompson (23) and Edward Hale (25). The undercover soldiers were apparently aware of the robbery well in advance and waited for them to emerge from the building before they carried out the shooting. None of the men were armed.

Colm McNutt 18 years, Derry City, an INLA activist, he was shot dead by an undercover British soldier in the city on 12 December 1977. Mr McNutt and another man attempted to hijack a car being driven by the undercover soldier. When he approached the car the soldier inside immediately opened fire wounding McNutt. The soldier fired again as he tried to escape, killing him.

Dermott McShane 35 years, Derry city, he was killed when a British army armoured vehicle was deliberately driven at a crowd during rioting in the city on 13 July 1996.

Martin McShane 16 years old, Meenagh Park, Coalisland, Co. Tyrone, shot dead near his home by members of the British Army's Royal Marine Commandos on 14 December 1971.

Paul McWilliams 16 years, Springfield Avenue, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, shot dead on 9 August 1977, by members of the British Army's Light Infantry Regiment.

Paul Magorrian 21 years, Castlewellan, County Down, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers as he walked along a street in the town on14 August 1974.

Dorothy Maguire 19 years, Lower Falls, west Belfast, she was shot dead by British soldiers along with Maura Meehan (30) on 23 October 1971. The two women had been in a car driving around the Lower Falls Road area raising the alarm that British soldiers were raiding homes in the area when they were shot.

William (Jackie) Mailey 30 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with two other IRA activists, Denis Brown (28) and James Mulvenna (28), by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. The three men were killed in an ambush as they approached a post office vehicle depot in north Belfast. William Hanna (28), who drove into the fire zone, was also shot and killed by the soldiers.

Colm Marks a member of the IRA shot-dead by the RUC in April 1992 in Downpatrick Co Down. Colm Marks, unarmed and posing no threat was apprehended by the RUC in the driveway of a house in Downpatrick and shot-dead as part of an undercover operation that lay in wait for the IRA.

Declan Martin 18 years, Dunloy, County Antrim, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover soldiers following a gun battle at Dunloy on 21 February 1984. Henry Hogan (21), also an IRA activist was shot dead at the same time. Private Paul Oram, a member of the 14th Intelligence Company, was killed earlier during the gun battle.

Michael Marley 17 Years, Dunville Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot dead on 24 November 1973, by members of the British Army's Royal Green Jackets at Divis Flats.

Gerard Martin Maginn 17years, Springfield Road, west Belfast, shot dead in a stolen car in the Poleglass housing estate on 3 November 1991, by members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

John Maughan 19 years, and Michael Connors 13 years, both shot dead in Church Lane, near Belfast City centre, on 1 March 1972, by members of a joint British army and Royal Ulster Constabulary patrol. Michael Connors and John Maughan were both members of Ireland's travelling community and were living at a site in the Belfast area at the time of their deaths.

Maura Meehan 30 years, Lower Falls, west Belfast, she was shot dead by British soldiers along with Dorothy Maguire (19) on 23 October 1971. The two women had been in a car driving around the Lower Falls Road area raising the alarm that British soldiers were raiding homes in the area when they were shot.

Paul Moan 15 years, Glen Road, West Belfast, shot dead on 31 March 1980, in a stolen car by members of a British army foot patrol on the Shaw's Road.

Tobias Molloy 18 years, Fountain Street, Strabane, killed by a rubber bullet during the early hours of Sunday, 16 July 1972. The fatal bullet was fired by a British soldier at the 'Camels Hump' checkpoint on the border between Lifford, County Donegal, and Strabane, County Tyrone.

Jackie Mooney age 17, from Legland Street, Ligoniel, North Belfast, was shot dead on 15 July 1972 by members of the British army's Royal Marine Commandos.

Alex Moorehead 16 Years, Newtownstewart, Co. Tyrone, shot dead in Newtownstewart on 7 October 1972, by members of the British Army's Ulster Defence Regiment.

Desmond Morgan 18 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the town on 27 November 1973.

Brian Mullin 26 years, Carrickmore area, Co Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Drumnakilly, County Tyrone, on 30 August 1988. Two brothers, Gerard Harte (29) and Martin Harte (21), both IRA activists, were also killed in the shooting. The three men were in a car when soldiers, using heavy machine guns, fired on it.

James Mulvenna 28 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead along with two other IRA activists, Denis Brown (28) and William Mealy (30), by undercover British soldiers on 20 June 1978. The three men were killed in an ambush as they approached a post office vehicle depot in north Belfast. William Hanna (28), who drove into the fire zone, was also shot and killed by the soldiers.

Patrick Mulvenna 19 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Ballymurphy on 31 August 1973. James Bryson (25) also an IRA activist was fatally wounded in the same incident and died in hospital on 22 September 1973. Both men were getting out of a car when they were shot.

William Nash 19 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William McKinney (26), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59).

Michael Neill 16 years, Stanhope Street, Unity Flats, north Belfast, shot dead on 24 October 1977 by members of the British army 's Argyle and Southern Highlanders regiment.

Leo Norney 17 years, Ardmonagh Parade, Turf Lodge, West Belfast, shot dead at Turf Lodge on 13 September 1975, by members of the British army's Black Watch Regiment.

Brendan O'Callaghan 21 years, Lenadoon, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers not far from his home on the Stewartstown Road on 24 April 1977. He was part of an IRA patrol designed to protect republican and nationalist areas from attacks by unionist/loyalist paramilitaries. He was in the car park of a bar when soldiers fired on him from concealed positions in near by hedges.

Gerard O'Callaghan 29 years, Co. Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at RUC Loughgall Barracks, County Armagh, on 8 May 1987. Seven other IRA activists were also killed; Declan Arthurs (21), Seamus Donnelly (19), Michael Anthony Gormley (25), Eugene Kelly (25), Patrick Kelly (30), Jim Lynagh (31), and Padraig McKearney (32). Anthony Hughes (36), a civilian was also shot dead and his brother seriously injured when they drove their car into the firing zone.

Kevin Barry O'Donnell 21 years, Coalisland, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in the car park of a Catholic church outside Coalisland on 16 February 1992. Three other IRA activists, Sean O'Farrell (23), Peter Clancy (19) and Daniel Vincent (20) were also shot dead in the same incident. The four young men were involved in an attack on Coalisland RUC barracks, and afterwards retreated to the church car park where a large unit of undercover soldiers were waiting for them.

Majella O'Hare 12 years, Rathview Gardens, Whitecross, Co. Armagh, shot near her home on 14 August 1976, by members of joint British army patrol of Royal Marine Commando and Parachute Regiment. She died on her way to the hospital.

Daniel O'Neill 20 years, Falls Road, an IRA activist, he was shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers on 4 January 1972. He died three days later.

Terence O'Neill 26 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by the RUC in Ballymurphy on 1 July 1980.

Edward O'Rawe 27 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Falls Road area on 12 April 1973.

Sean O'Reardon 13 years old, Oramore Street, Clonard, Falls Road, West Belfast, shot dead in the Clonard area on 23 March 1972, by members of the British Army's Gloucester Regiment.

William Price 28 years, Carnan, County Tyrone, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers near Ardboe, County Tyrone, on 13 July 1984. The soldiers captured Mr Price during an attempt to burn down a factory. Several minutes afterwards he was shot dead.

James Quigley 18 years, Lower Falls Road, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Falls Road area on 29 September 1972. He was shot in the attic of a shop after soldiers said they saw a gunman. His body was thrown from the building to the ground.

Michael Quigley 19 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 17 August 1972. He had been on his way to a party when he was shot. In 1976 during a compensation hearing the judge, who awarded his family damages, said the dead youth had not been involved in any activity when he was shot, and his death was not due to an accidental, but deliberate shooting.

Frank Quinn 20 years, Ballymurphy, west Belfast, he was shot and killed by British soldiers in the Bally Murphy area on 9 August 1972. Mr Quinn had been with Catholic priest Fr. Hugh Mullan when he was shot. The two men and others had gone to the aid of a wounded man when they were both shot. They died for their wounds a short time later.

Billy Reid 32 years, New Lodge Road, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in central Belfast on 15 May 1971.

Thomas Reilly 22 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 9 August 1983. It was a warm summers day and Mr Reilly was not wearing a shirt when he was shot. A British soldier was later charged and convicted with his murder. He was the first soldier to be jailed for life for killing in the North of Ireland. However, it was later revealed that he had been released from prison after three years and reinstated in the army.

Daniel Rooney 19 years, St. James area, west Belfast, he was shot dead by undercover soldiers near his home on 27 September 1972.

Patrick Rooney 9 year-old Patrick Rooney was shot-dead by the RUC in August 1969. Patrick was shot as his father Cornelius attempted to carry him from his bedroom to the family living room for safety during disturbances when a RUC/loyalist led mob attacked the lower Falls area in Belfast. Patrick Rooney was the first child to be killed in the Troubles.

Frank Rowntree 11 years, Lower Clonard Street, Falls Road, west Belfast, shot with a (doctored) rubber bullet on 20 April 1972, at the Divis Flats, by members of the British Army's Royal Anglian Regiment. He died in the Royal Victoria Hospital three days later on 23 April.

Sean Ruddy 19 years, Newry, shot dead along with Robert Anderson and Thomas James McLaughlin by British soldiers in Newry, Co. Down, on 24 October 1971. The soldiers were on the roof of a building overlooking a bank and shot the three men as they attempted to rob the bank.

James Saunders 22 years, Oldpark area, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Oldpark area on 6 February 1971.

John Savage 17 Years, Ardoyne, North Belfast, shot dead in a stolen car on the Springfield Road on 18 December 1976, by members of the British army's Parachute Regiment.

Sean Savage 24 years, Andersonstown, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers in Gibraltar on 6 March 1988. Mairead Farrell (31) and Daniel McCann (30), also IRA activists, were shot and killed during the same incident.

Louis Scullion 27 years, Unity Flats, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 14 July 1972.

Seamus Simpson 21 years, Andersonstown, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Andersonstown area on 11 August 1971.

Martin Skillen 21 years, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in the Lower falls Road area on 3 August 1974.

Brian Smyth 32 years, Ardoyne, north Belfast, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by British soldiers in Ardoyne on 17 April 1973. The soldiers were in an observation post and claimed Mr Smyth and other men were armed. Several years later one of the soldiers involved in the shooting admitted at the appeal of one of the men arrested after the shooting and charged with possession that he had lied. He said none of the men had a gun and they had opened fire when their commanding officer said the men were members of the IRA. The same officer told the soldier to lie after the shooting.

Brian Stewart 13 years, Norglen Crescent, Turf Lodge, west Belfast, hit by a plastic bullet near his home on 4 October 1976, fired by members of the British army's King's Own Scottish Borders. He died in hospital six days later on 10 October.

John Starrs 19 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot and fatally wounded by British soldiers in the city on 13 May 1972.

Ken Stronge 46 years, Donegal Road, south Belfast, he was shot and fatally wounded by undercover British soldiers as he drove along North Queen Street, on 4 July 1988. He was driving a taxi and was passing an RUC barrack there, as they IRA were about to attack the building. A large number of undercover soldiers, apparently aware of the intended attack, waited inside and outside the barrack and pour heavy fire into the surrounding area once the attack began.

David Thompson 28 years, Sheriff Street, Short Strand, east Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers near his home on 17 October 1971. He was at the corner of his own street when he was shot.

Kathleen Thompson 24 years, Creggan, Derry City, she was shot dead by British soldiers in the back garden of her home on 6 November 1971. The shooting took place during a raid and arrest operation by British forces. Mr Thompson had a bin lid in her hand to raise the alarm of the raiding party's presence when she was shot.

Peter Thompson 23 years, Dunmurry, west Belfast, shot dead by undercover soldiers during a robbery of a bookmakers on the Falls Road, on 13 January 1990. The soldiers also killed two other men, John McNeill (43) and Edward Hale (25). The undercover soldiers were apparently aware of the robbery well in advance and waited for them to emerge from the building before they carried out the shooting. None of the men were armed.

Eugene Toman 21 years, Lurgan, County Armagh, an IRA activist, he was shot dead in a car by an undercover RUC unit outside Lurgan on 11 November 1982. Two other IRA activists, Gervase McKerr (31) and Sean Burns (21), were also killed in the shooting. The three men were travelling in the car outside Lurgan when the shooting occurred.

Joseph (Joe) Walker 18 years, Derry, an IRA activist, he was shot and killed by British soldiers near his Creggan home on 3 December 1973.

Keith White 20 years, Houston Park, Mourneview estate, Lurgan, County Armagh, hit by a plastic bullet fired by a member of the RUC on 31 March 1986. He died in hospital two weeks later on 14 April.

Paul Whitters 15 years, Derry City, struck on the head by a plastic-bullet fired by a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary on 15 April 1981. He died in hospital ten days later on 25 April.

Jim Wray 22 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William McKinney (26), Michael Kelly (17), John Young (17), John Duddy (17), William Nash (19), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59).

John Young 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Michael McDaid (20), Michael McDaid (17), Hugh Gilmore (17), William McKinney (26), Michael Kelly (17), Jim Wray (22), John Duddy (17), William Nash (19), Patrick Doherty (31), Bernard McGuigan (41), Gerard McKinney (35) and John Johnston (59).

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:21 PM

Not that I feel I have to justify my self to you in any way as far as my name,it is my grandmothers maiden name.

Man you do talk some poop and the conclusions you are jumping to show you have not one clue, you are harmless really, my fault for taking you serious in the first place.

How many children were killed: 1970 first recorded deaths

26 Jun Bernadette McCool 9 Catholic Killed by         Irish Republican Army
Died in premature explosion of incendiary device at her home Dunree
Gardens, Creggan Derry
26 Jun         Carol Ann McCool 4 Catholic killed by Irish Republican Army Died in premature explosion of incendiary device at her home Dunree
Gardens, Creggan Derry.

Did they want to be volunteers?

Read the rest http://www.childrenofireland.us/childrenkilled.htm and let the fact that what they have in common is some idiots like you trying to justify some of their deaths,how sad. I wonder how grateful these two nationalists are?

Not that the deaths were bad enough we have those who do not apologise for their actions, how convenient.What amazes me is the perpetuation of lies and the perfect example was the murder of 14 yr old Kathleen Feeney by the IRA who used her death as propaganda to incite hatred among the ignorant,most of those like you, never set foot in N.Ireland..

The IRA later murdered a soldier for the killing of this child knowing full well they were the perpetrators. How many rep authors really know all the fact? read for yourself. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article537036.ece but sure never let the truth get in the way of a good prejudice.

What k Of H has above you is his accountability here he does not post under guest and recognising his general good contributions to this forum far outweighs anything you put out.

Dissident supporter from a foreign country stirring the pot in my country and you call others out on their faults.When would you have got the message violence would not work? when the last of the Irish had to be buried by the like of you.

Thanks but no thanks we all can do without your help if you do not mind.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM

Firstly you are a shame on the country using the handle that you do, I could suggest a few for you, but I am too much of a gentleman.

Please don't speak on my behalf, please don't consider yourself the voice of the North of Ireland on this site. Please do not use the word "terrorist" when referring to my posts.

Regarding you comments about your "British" friends, do they know your background ? are they aware you are from a nationalist background ? Are you aware your friend Keith had a post removed because the site modarator caught him through his IP address posting under the name of another person who was posting on a thread ? A bit sly don't you think.

If there is one thing I cannot stand, it's a crawler. Someone prepared to sell out their soul to a master. You fit well into this little box.

Members and guest posters don't seem to be responding to your tearful posts, full of rue and sorrow, besides the duo that frankly don't show you much respect.

I don't know where you stand, simply because you don't seem to know yourself.

Where do I stand ? in full respect of every Irish volunteer who answered the call throughout the centuries against British rule in Ireland.I do NOT include those that "took the soup".

A hero, each and every one of of them.

You seem to think you speak for the pro British Stormont nationalists and so called republicans. Well reading some of the sh 1 t you wrote you probably would fit right in among them.

Someone asked what changed "so called" once republicans. Why did they enter a British assembly and become British ministers ? They did so out of sheer greed for their ass pocket. Yes 40 pieces of silver did the trick. Each and every one of that front line of goons in British Sinn Fein once yelled into the faces of British ministers to get out of Ireland.

So my nationalist friend, show a little more respect for those proud brave volunteers of the Irish nation.

Did you note, I never received an answer regarding the murderous antics of British soldiers in the North of I reland ? well who needs it, the world knows it !

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM

only 700 more to go...

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:38 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM

BTW GUEST,AR where about in Ireland do you live?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:28 PM

No harm to any of you posters but do you honestly think what your posts translate to for us in N.I.?

We have people who get their Irishness from books films and the biased views of story tellers which may or may not be pro Irish or for want of a better word pro unionists.

Be sure of one thing idiots have stuck their nose in our land\history and it is us that pays the price,stop using N.Ireland/Ireland as a football in the game of how much I know.

Ireland is too complex to discuss the complete issues here, this bull that it was ever a united Island shows an ignorance that has caused lives to day hundreds of years later.

Here is the real problem, we have peace three people are murdered and that peace was shaken, now we have idiots giving succor to the very gunmen who murdered and maimed on our streets and who pays the price, us poor buggers in N.Ireland.

And guess what we have to read how such and such does not apologise for the actions of terrorists who they have given their moral support to but never stood in front of the aftermath of shootings or bombings. Try watching the blood of complete strangers run down the drains, they now have one thing in common,they were murdered by the very people who their supporters do not apologise for.

And what do we get, some person asking how many children the British armed forces murdered and ignore that the terrorists they supported murdered more people than all the rest put together and have no apologies for that, wow thanks very much I noticed no-one spoke of peace, easy to throw lives away especially if they are not your own.

And were do these people get the experience to hold such views not living here not lifting pieces of mince off the streets of Ireland that turn out to be the last remains of a human being,not having to wash the blood of friends off the streets, they get it through books and accounts from those who would carryout those actions.

This is all based on the fallacy that terrorists had full support, they never did as the dissidents are getting support from people in Drumbeg Craigavon today the PIRA got it in the past through shear fear.

But guess what has not got through to some,violence does not work,and we have people who do not apologise for using that violence how pathetic, to them peace is a threat.

Now we have a society were both sides can hold their head high the immediate need for the utopia of a United Ireland is not as prevalent and that threatens the nat\rep cause. Many people Catholic and Protestant are happy with their lot.

Why should we have it spoiled by outsiders who frankly really know little about us.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM

Well said Big Mick, that's him boxed in, no way out. Christ help him, it's a pity really. Why does he go on silly rants ?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM

A GuestAR start taking more water with it, it is obviously affecting your eyesight.

Big Mick:

"He begins all tirades at a moment in time that suits his arguments, builds a premise that is either false, or out of context, and then crafts an argument that looks absolutely brilliant."

What moment in time have I selected to suit my purpose Mick?

What false premise? So far you have not refuted a single thing that I have said.

Nor have you answered a single question put to you.

But there again I didn't get my information sitting over in America talking to immigrant Irish Republicans and their descendents.

"That thing is that the English, during their colonial expansion, and conquest, decided to come to a land, subjugate its people, take their property, strip it of all resources and livestock, dispossess them of ancient lands and give it to others" – BM

What English colonial expansion are you referring to Mick - America?

Maybe you should have put that post to music – it would be about as factually and historically accurate as "Back Home In Derry" or "Fields Of Athenry" – both complete and utter fairytales.

"So when one only engages in finger pointing, it is very easy to find atrocities."

You mean as you have been doing from your first post to this thread.

"there are many things done on both sides of this struggle that people should be ashamed of. I know this from my own experiences with conflict,"

The only thing wrong with that Big Mick is that you don't have any experiences of this conflict.

"the policies of the Crown and governments of Great Britain, lie at the root of all this,"

Bullshit it was not the policies of the Crown and Governments of Great Britain that opted to use the gun and bomb and in so doing cause the deaths, directly and indirectly, of 3600 people and further maim 36,000 others, the vast majority of them being the very people they were telling the world that they were "protecting". And now the very same people who took that decision have the nerve to describe as "wrong minded" former "comrades" who have done exactly what they themselves did 40 years ago that Big Mick is simply rank hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1483520
There you are Den

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: skarpi
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM

eh !!
How many PALMTREES do you have ?? I have three short ones
and one coconut :>))

in this thread I have knowledge for the rest of the year
thanks all .

Iceman

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:11 PM

I have been through this so many times, and I am not going to do it again beyond the obvious. TB should change his name to "Obfuscation 'r Us". He begins all tirades at a moment in time that suits his arguments, builds a premise that is either false, or out of context, and then crafts an argument that looks absolutely brilliant. And, as Al has pointed out, absolutely refuses to accept any criticisms of his country's policies, or any blame for the same. But one thing is clear to any observer that is willing to take the long view, and who craves justice and peace. That thing is that the English, during their colonial expansion, and conquest, decided to come to a land, subjugate its people, take their property, strip it of all resources and livestock, dispossess them of ancient lands and give it to others, and discriminate against them for centuries. They played the "Orange Card" and effectively used it right up until very recent times to maintain their hold on the industrial north. Their security forces used a shoot to kill without cause policy, provided intelligence to the loyalist terror groups, imprisoned people without cause, and did all they could to wipe out the Irish culture. They stood by and watched school kids be mobbed and scared out of their wits.

TB, there are many things done on both sides of this struggle that people should be ashamed of. I know this from my own experiences with conflict, and if you were half the warrior you imply you are, you would admit that is the way of armed conflict. So when one only engages in finger pointing, it is very easy to find atrocities. But the brilliance of the processes like the South African Truth Commissions, is that folks could look at each other and acknowledge what was wrong, and then move on. In the North of Ireland, that is happening primarily on only one side of the equation. Had you stepped up and simply acknowledged what is so, and expressed a hope for a peaceful future, and a self determination, for the children, and all people, of the North, I could give you grudging respect. But as far as I can see you are not worthy of that. If you cannot acknowledge what the world knows, which is that the policies of the Crown and governments of Great Britain, lie at the root of all this, then you will continue in my mind to be not worth spending anymore time with. And I shall not.

Your time has come and gone.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:52 PM

Thanks Teribus, I will willingly accept your defeat, not easy for you to admit it, but thank you all the same.

Just a pity you wouldn't strecth it to giving honour to the great men of Irish republicanism, but I see your coming around.

Also I admire you for admitting British soldiers did murder innocent Irish children, you have surprised me tonight.

Best wishes
Al R.