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love the young people writing folk
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Subject: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:08 PM I absolutely love this young girl's writing and voice It is so great to hear young people doing real folk give a listen to this young girl's folk original |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:13 PM ! |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM I thought it was lovely, Old Dude - thanks for the heads up. Hope we hear more from her. However anyone wants to label it, it's certainly music from a young kindred spirit. Good to know they're out there - |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 06 Apr 09 - 12:41 PM she just reminds me of a young Joan Baez or Joni Mitchell it is a joy to hear young people carry on -to know the music will live thank you Dan |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Ref Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:21 PM Lovely! "But that CAN'T be FOLK music?! She made that song up out of her own head!!!" I'd love to hear it with proper amplification and a little better enunciation as some of the lyrics were muddied. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 06 Apr 09 - 07:22 PM she sure did, listen to her other originals amazing young lady whoever she is |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:18 PM Strong story, nice guitar playing, good voice, good presence and delivery, but the tune is a rambling Dylanoid expanse of nothing. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 06 Apr 09 - 10:24 PM I am sure the young lady doesn't need your support to do her music, there are plenty of folks who do admire a young person doing folk. I sure do |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Declan Date: 07 Apr 09 - 02:42 AM Nice song well performed. As she says in the note to the side of the screen the song was 'inspired' by a song by Suzanne Vega. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: theleveller Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:06 AM I couldn't hear the words properly but it reminded me of Kate Rusby/Kathryn Roberts' The Queen and the Soldier. I thinks she's good - but no better than quite a few singer/songwriters I've heard recently. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: caitlin rua Date: 07 Apr 09 - 05:27 AM In that case, there are quite a few young singer/songwriters showing a lot of talent. I thought it was beautiful. She can't be out of her teens yet, can you imagine what she'll mature into as an artist? A little encouragement from us oldie been-there's would not go amiss. Wish I'd been that good at her age. "Rambling Dylanoid expanse of nothing" is way too harsh, even if it had been aimed at a seasoned performer. The original Suzanne Vega song that sparked this one off has a very different story and not nearly so interesting a melody, and the only things they really have in common are a queen and some undefined soldiers (Vega's soldier plays a central role). The plot also has elements of Silas Marner in it. But good art does that - draws influences from many cultural wellsprings and creates something new from them. I hope this lovely young artist will keep writing and singing, and not let any dismissive words hinder or undermine her. New talent like this, that doesn't just pander to the pop formula and the wannabe-a-star machine, should be nurtured. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: theleveller Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:05 AM "I hope this lovely young artist will keep writing and singing, and not let any dismissive words hinder or undermine her. " So do I. But If you're not prepared to accept any realistic criticism, don't ask for opinions on boards like this. There are quite a few excellent young singer/songwriters around at the moment. Lucy Ward, who got into the finals of the BBC Young Folk Musician Awards, is brilliant. I got a myspace friends request today from a 15-year old who is also excellent (sorry, can't recall her name offhand). There are several who go to our folk club. That doesn't detract from the talent of the yong lady here, but she is definitely not alone. Stop being so defensive - it won't help her. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: caitlin rua Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:26 AM I don't think talking about how good a bunch of other singers are is going to help her either. And the rambling-expanse-of-nothing comment is just a meaningless vent. How is she supposed to learn anything from that? And "!" is merely meaningless. Criticism that's constructive is what will help her. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: GUEST Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:37 AM And "!" is merely meaningless I understood what Richard meant.... |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: caitlin rua Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:02 AM Not terribly useful, though |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: theleveller Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:09 AM "I don't think talking about how good a bunch of other singers are is going to help her either. " On the contrary, I think singer/songwriters learn more from listening to other people than in any other way - I know I still do. Isn't that what you meant by "But good art does that - draws influences from many cultural wellsprings and creates something new from them." If you can't judge the standard of what you produce against others, you are simply living in a vacuum. People will always have differing opinions of your stuff so, unless you're just going to perform in your bedroom, get used to it. Trying to wrap an aspiring young artist in cotton wool is the worst thing you can do if you want her to develop and reach her full potential. Like I said, she is good - now where does she want to go from here? |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Jack Campin Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:00 AM The "Dylanoid" bit in my comment was intended to indicate where the problem was. She needs to listen to some memorable tunes - like most of the traditional repertoire. Dylan is not much of an inspiration to anyone trying to write melodies and Suzanne Vega is incomparably worse. I certainly wouldn't pay to hear anything so melodically dull, whatever else the performer had going for her. (Does anybody still pay to hear Suzanne Vega? - not exactly an A-lister these days, anyway). The storyline would have been stronger if it had been given a contemporary setting rather than that pseudo-mediaeval one, but it's okay as is. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: matt milton Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:10 AM "Dylan is not much of an inspiration to anyone trying to write melodies and Suzanne Vega is incomparably worse." That's an interesting point - something I was thinking about myself recently. To an extent it's a bit of a red herring as far as Dylan's concerned, because I don't think he was ever massively interested in writing particularly ambitious melodies. Dylan's at his best for me when he's at his closest to his most elemental influences: country blues, Sun Studios-era rock'n'roll, and Guthrie-style balladry. The best Dylan songs only have about 3 chords. It's all about lyrics, the voice, the sound. Suzanne Vega, on the other hand, I've just never understood at all. If you're gonna do folk/pop you've gotta have tunes, and I've never really heard one from her. The best song I ever heard from her was that dance remix of 'Tom's Diner'. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: GUEST Date: 07 Apr 09 - 08:56 AM Suzanne Vega on What's a Melody For? |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: theleveller Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:10 AM I'd be quite happy to listen to her at a singaround or singers' night. I've no idea what her aspirations are but if she's thinking of becoming professional, I'd agree that she isn't there yet. But who knows how she'll develop in the future. I wish her luck. BTW, is she aware that this thread has been started? |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: matt milton Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:29 AM Thanks for that link ("What's a melody for?). The first couple of paragraphs of that more or less sum it up. The examples she gives (Lou Reed and Bob Dylan) are, she's right, four-or-five-note melody writers. The thing is, though, that both Reed and Dylan were startlingly charismatic performers and off-the-wall lyricists, with tons more *attitude* than Ms Vega. Reed got his from the Stones/60s counterculture while Bob Dylan got his from the blues. I have no idea where Suzanne Vega got hers from, or indeed whether she ever actually got any. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Banjiman Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:37 AM Nice sound. Lovely, lovely voice, nice guitar accompaniment. Song needs a bit of work I think...... not a memorable enough melody, no real hook. Guitar is a bit loud in the recording so I can't hear the lyrics clearly enough to say if I like them or not. But fair play to her for getting her songs out there. Clearly a lot of the YouTube audience really like what she is doing. I will go back and listen to more of her songs. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:00 AM Not everyone who writes music or performs on youtube aspires to be a star or even performs out anywhere. Many if not most have their reasons. Mine happens to be to share my songs with my friends and family or the best I can be such that it is. However, a songwriter at that age needs to mature and will. this girl decided this is the music she loves. Not Rap, Not modern bang head country .. but this music. A kid , a guitar , a voice and some words she made up. I understand that folks on mudcat are use to the great masters ... aren't we all.. but when people bitch about there is no great music being created anymore and everything is cookie cutter the same ... remember the kid that just starting out and the encouragement you gave or simply dismissed as trivial. If she were out performing pushing her CD's fair game. But a kid in an apartment writing songs ... trying to learn the craft ... dang fine job for me. I could not write a song at that age that good. I know few people starting out that can ...I can't write a song that good now. Think back at the age she is .. tell me everything you ever played or written was STELLAR ... I am an old fart. I don't care about ever performing in public or creating something people want to buy. I just try to be the best i can. I think most on youtube are exactly that way. Joni Mitchell did not wake up the Joni Mitchell we all know in one day. IT took work, and if people told her, trivial it stinks ... what a loss we would have |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:07 AM and when have you seen a pro performer play a low end Yamaha guitar doesn't that tell you something. if we don't encourage the music we lose it that simple |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:11 AM one final think. I don't know this kid ... don't even know her name. I hope she doesn't read this thread. I will absolutely not bring another young person here for encouragement. The world would lose possibly another lightfoot or Baez |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Banjiman Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:17 AM olddude.... a lot of us have put up things close to our hears for scrutiny on Mudcat. One of the great things you often get back on here is a really objective view point. This is useful, constructive feedback. I think most of the posts above fall into this category, most are thoughtful responses identifying the plus points and where (in the opinion of the poster) there are areas that could be looked at. This is a useful process. You should be thanking people for making the effort. ..... and ignoring the one or two stupid, repetitive posts saying "but it's not folk music" in their usual sullen teenage nasally whining kind of a way! I'll get me safety hat. Paul |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Banjiman Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:23 AM should say close to their hearts not hears in 1st line above! |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Jack Campin Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:30 AM The guitar sounded fine to me. Most guitarists don't realize how little difference there is to a listener between guitars varying 20-fold in price. To my ears, there's absolutely no reason for her ever to get a different one. Most of the comments here have been constructive, but it is NOT helpful to somebody starting out to be so polite as to convey no hint about what might be better. Wendy Arrowsmith is somebody who can write a strong tune: http://www.youtube.com/user/WendyARR1 . A much more useful model than Suzanne Vega. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: olddude Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:41 AM Point well taken Paul Thank you |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Art Thieme Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:32 PM "Constructive criticism is what'll help her." Yes, yes, and being young, she has no idea that what she is doing has little to do with folk music other than she is playing an acoustic guitar, and that she is striving to sing.. Also, Baez is nothing like Joni Mitchell---and visa versa! This young person is best served by leading her in directions that will give her an actual education and not simply tell her that whatever she plucks from her own mind is folk music---. Olddude, with all due respect, and I do respect your instincts from all the appreciative personal threads you have started, what better place to inform her than here at Mudcat? Art |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:50 PM A kid , a guitar , a voice and some words she made up There are a lot of these playing in clubs and bars round my way. Some of them are brilliant, some indifferent. Some have potential, some don't. Most would welcome and all would benefit from constructive criticism. I think it's wonderful that there are kids making various sorts of acoustic and folkie music. But if you think its in some way rare or unusual you should visit my neck of the woods. They're everywhere! I swear the little blighters are breeding... |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: VirginiaTam Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:24 PM She can play, has a ok voice. However, I don't like the Queen and the Soldier at all, so this clone piece didn't do much for me. To be fair, I listened to her other other original songs and found them a bit samey. Her style is just not to my taste. Still give her time. Sometimes these young singer/songwriters hit on something fresh and take off. Wishing her best of luck and a visit from a friendly muse. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: greg stephens Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:44 PM Here's one pro (of a rather considerable number of years standing) who plays a Yamaha. And what's wrong with Yamahas? Someone above was complaining about repetitive posts saying "it's not folk". Have there been many? And if there have, what does it matter how you classify it? It's a good song, or it's not. That is an opinion the writer might like to read and consider. But I doubt if it will much matter to her whether you think it's rock, or folk, or country. Abusing other people because you disagree with their definitions is always a bit....well....Mudcatty, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: GUEST,Greycap Date: 07 Apr 09 - 04:27 PM Good guitar playing, poor diction, dull song. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Ref Date: 07 Apr 09 - 06:22 PM Goodonyer, Banjiman! |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Flashmeister Date: 14 Aug 09 - 05:54 AM I like what she is doing, there is potential there and constructive criticism can never hurt. I am afraid i do have a bit of a bee in my bonnet though..... I'm a young person writing folk and performing contemporary and trad. folk (I await the barrage as I confess on some trad songs i have adapted the tunes *wince*) One thing that strikes me is how wretchedly, wretchedly condescending a lot of folkies can be towards people like me. Is it not in the very spirit of folk to take great songs and translate them for today, for the narrator to put their voice to them, make them relevant again? It should not be the preserve of a bunch of die-hard pedants huddled together backs turned against any form of evolution of songs and tunes and, God forbid, have people, to misquote from above, make things up out of their own heads and dare to call it folk. In my mind Folk is music of the people, it draws it's relevance from personal situation, zeitgeist phenomena and the ripples that exist in a society....it all tells a story, so how do these young folk musicians like me not do that, in some people's opinions, with self-penned that can sit happiy alongside trad tunes? Apologies for the slight rant but it really does bug me that performers like myself tend to get a pretty raw deal in a lot of folk circles where as some tone-deaf old git doing a hackneyed Fields of Athenry is being 'folk'. I fear that a lot of younger performers genuinely are put off by the stuffy and sometimes deeply critical side of the folk scene and because of that they are on youtube playing instead of down in the sessions and clubs where they could gain more valuable and practical knowledge than a bunch of yay or nays on a computer screen could ever give. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: matt milton Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:03 AM "I fear that a lot of younger performers genuinely are put off by the stuffy and sometimes deeply critical side of the folk scene and because of that they are on youtube playing instead of down in the sessions and clubs where they could gain more valuable and practical knowledge than a bunch of yay or nays on a computer screen could ever give". All too true. However, the one thing you really really really have to remember is to take anything anyone says on a website with a massive pinch of salt. People write far more critical things online than they ever would say in person. I find that there are plenty of people who come across as terrible pendantic curmudgeons online who 'in real life' turn out to be warm, welcoming, friendly, generous and much more open-minded than their posts suggest. 9 times out of 10, a heartfelt, well-performed, original 'singer-songwriter' song will go down just as well at a floorspot at a folk club - even at a very traditional one - despite the sort of thing you might read on some comments. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: matt milton Date: 14 Aug 09 - 07:05 AM Oh and when you say: "(I await the barrage as I confess on some trad songs i have adapted the tunes *wince*)" you really shouldn't worry so much: people have been adapting the tunes ever since there were tunes and words. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Paul Davenport Date: 14 Aug 09 - 03:43 PM Flashmeister writes; 'In my mind Folk is music of the people, it draws it's relevance from personal situation, zeitgeist phenomena and the ripples that exist in a society....it all tells a story, so how do these young folk musicians like me not do that, in some people's opinions, with self-penned that can sit happiy alongside trad tunes? ' This is not meant as a snipe but just an observation; is it okay for me to play a bit of Mozart in the session? Am I okay to sing the opening aria from Wagner's 'Flying Dutchman' (in German) in the singaround? Both matter to me, both are part of my personal musical experience. Are they therefore, in your opinion folk? Now to your question, if you write a modern tune that would be recognised and approved by an early 19th century audience you're writing in the tradition - if your tune is recognisably 20th century with all the nuances such as 'blue notes' which have entered our musical culture in the recent decades then you're probably writing in a different tradition. Funnily enough, the 'Arts' don't ask this sort of question - apparently we folkies do. Just keep on being yourself and let time judge - that's another sign of 'traditional' practice I believe. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 14 Aug 09 - 06:09 PM "Apologies for the slight rant but it really does bug me that performers like myself tend to get a pretty raw deal in a lot of folk circles where as some tone-deaf old git doing a hackneyed Fields of Athenry is being 'folk'. I fear that a lot of younger performers genuinely are put off by the stuffy and sometimes deeply critical side of the folk scene and because of that they are on youtube playing instead of down in the sessions and clubs ... " I really, really don't recognise this picture at all. Most young, first-timer singers are usually greeted with enthusiasm in the venues which I attend (unless they're really, really awful of course - in which case a muted ripple of polite applause is the usual response - which is also the common response to the 'Fields of Athenry', I might add!). Nevertheless, I have in the past, seen a young person, or a group of young people, turn up hoping to get a booking, do their wildly inappropriate, rock-based floorspot and then piss off leaving the 'stuffy old gits' to it (not really a good way to 'win friends and influence people!). And 'critism' is not (or should not be) a dirty word. Good, thoughtfull, supportive critism can lead to an enhanced experience for both performer and audience. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Kosmo Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:21 PM Having not got very far down the list of replies before seeing "that CAN'T be folk music - she wrote it herself" I feel that I must insist that it IS folk music!!!!!!!! Songs written in the traditional way!! Would you say songs by Bellowhead or Eliza Carthy or the gorgeous Seth Lakeman were NOT folk?! GAH ... is all I can say. And also add, she's lovely, very modern sounding voice like Candice Night (blackmore's night) and I wish I could play the guitar. It's a bit difficult to sing and play the flute at the same time ... oh well. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Kosmo Date: 14 Aug 09 - 09:24 PM Oh and to add - because I talk too much, that I can probably be considered fairly young in folk as I'm 20, but bear/bare in mind that I've been playing my flute and singing in a folk band (the rest of the marmalade girls are a liiittle bit older than myself) since I was twelve, and I adore folk music. Young people who love folk music are everywhere, you just have to ignore the rubbish ones who don't :) (Oddly enough my favourite band are Queen ...) Luv Kosmo |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: GUEST Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:44 AM "Songs written in the traditional way!! Would you say songs by Bellowhead or Eliza Carthy or the gorgeous Seth Lakeman were NOT folk?! GAH ... is all I can say" while I don't have much time for the "what is folk" question, I do struggle when it comes to Seth Lakeman. I really don't like the tunes or arrangements he gives to pieces - to my ears they have almost none of the hallmarks of traditional British material that I listen to folk music for. I suspect that if you were to do a Schenkerian analysis of Lakeman's music, you 'd find he had more in common with, say, Green Day than any 'source singer'. i think adapting tunes is an organic part of a process but I really scratch my head when a new tune has been given to traditional lyrics and that tune is indistinguishable from one that Oasis or Coldplay might come up with. I just don't see the point: all you're preserving is one formal aspect of the work of art – the words – and then for me the whole enterprise suddenly seems totally arbitrary. To give one example: I really can't fathom why on earth S Lakeman sings 'Ye Mariners All' the way he does. If you think the tune that's traditionally been attached to it is so worthless, why not just pick a different song to sing? After all, while the lyrics to that song are fun - they remind me a lot of country blues lyrics, bit like 'If the Sea Was Whisky' - it's not like there's a shortage of drinking songs in the Brit folk tradition.
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Tim Leaning Date: 15 Aug 09 - 09:08 PM I only "do" my own stuff and I have found that whatever the "is it isn't it folk" stuff on here,the people sat around in the pubs&backrooms taking a turn to sing or play are 99% accepting ,polite ,encouraging,and I am grateful to all of you for that. Give the girl a break,pass on some expertise re playing singing and recording. Shes doing OK and if she doesn't get the love of music kicked out of her she will have a lot of fun with it.As I have for the last 8 or so years. I wish had started when I was that age I might have had a few more chords under me fingers by now LOL |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Smokey. Date: 15 Aug 09 - 11:27 PM She should go far, given the right breaks. Whoever said it's not a good tune doesn't know a good tune when they hear one, but personal preferences don't amount to constructive criticism. |
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Subject: RE: love the young people writing folk From: Kosmo Date: 16 Aug 09 - 07:05 AM Ach, I still love Seth Lakeman, and at least he's good looking enough to get young girls back into folk music! First they listen to him, next eliza carthy, the bellowhead then who knows, they'll all be connected. And I'll defend Seth Lakeman, just because you don't like him, doesn't mean he's not a folk musician. And that girl (the one the post was started about) is really good again, the problem is the world is full of talented lovely people and there's not enoguh stages for them all. xxx Kosmo |
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