In Praise of Traddies!

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:29 AM

Thanks Sweeney. BTW - did the copy of my CD I sent you ever arrive? Things seem to be in a bit of a flux for you; I have PM'd you a couple of times to ask, but not clear if PMs are getting thru to you at present, so hope you don't mind my asking question here on the thread.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:16 AM

Just for interest ~ even if only to me ~ my darling late wife Valerie took that pic. I think there should be a credit to that FK to be found in the booklet somewhere.

Nice to know! Wonder what the word-scores were?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

"So what? Who cares if you get pictures or not? Is this thread about what we can do to make traditional music more appealing to Lizzie Cornish? No, it's about people who appreciate traditional music, and the people within it. If you don't relate to either of these things, why keep coming to the thread to have gratuitous pops at something you neither like nor understand? "


I was merely replying to a question which Tam asked me. If you have a problem with that....................

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: John P
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:40 AM

I play traditional music. I'm a jazz pianist. I'm a bluesman. I play a lot of medieval music. I play hard rock, jazz-rock, progressive rock. I'm a drummer, a guitarist, and I play the harp. I have about two dozen hand drums, a mandolin, a cittern, and an oud. I can't sing for shit, but I do it anyway, in the privacy of my home.

I have never -- nor has any other traditional music lover in any thread I've read on Mudcat -- tried to tell anyone what to play or how to play it.

For those who don't like traditional music, that's fine. But don't tell me that I'm doing anything other than encouraging everyone to play and listen to whatever kind of music turns them on. The whole "music locked up in a basement" thing simply does not exist. Not on Mudcat, not in real life, no where except the minds of those who for some reason feel threatened when confronted by people who generally like trad music more than most singer-songwriter music.

I would like to add my thanks to all the great traditional musicians from whom I learned songs and tunes, all the dedicated collectors who found the songs and put them in books so I could find them as well, and to all the promoters who bother to make live traditional music possible. I could say the same about the older rock musicians who helped get going when I was young, and the blues and jazz players who put up with my lack of skill and knowledge and played with me anyway.

John

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

Bad example. Dave ~ some [tho not all] of the points she makes on that thread are fair: see a point I have made there in correspondence with Royston. (Mods ~ sorry to confuse threads: but he started it, Miss!)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:25 AM

S.O'P. wrote:
"It is well reported that after gigs Bellamy would give serious scrutiny to his hosts record collections, insisting on playing some real music which was seldom revival folk."

Yes, and he could be savage about their choices, too.

The first time I spent an afternoon with Bob Copper he used the phrase, "Now let's listen to some real music", on arrival in the room with a huge armful of classic blues recordings. At dinner with the Bellamys on one occasion (if you're going to drop names, make them good ones) Peter played nothing all night but New Orleans jazz to accompany his home-cooked gumbo, red beans and rice.

"No one said traditional music was the invention of the bourgeoisie"

Well, you do claim regularly that the concept of traditional music is the invention of the bourgoisie, and others try to convince us that the 'middle classes' or 'professors' have expropriated it, or that Cecil Sharp made it all up. You can't deny being an agent provocateur, surely? But I'm not rising to that "all music is traditonal" bait, on this occasion.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:27 AM

No - there doesn't seem to be: very remiss, Neil!! However, there is on the sleeve of Both Sides Then, on which a companion photo from the same set appears.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:21 AM

There's a picture of Peter Bellamy with a scrabble board (in the booklet of WTVE) on which are the words BLEATING BORING OLD TRADDY. SO'P

===================================================

Just for interest ~ even if only to me ~ my darling late wife Valerie took that pic. I think there should be a credit to that FK to be found in the booklet somewhere.

~ Michael ~

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:10 AM

A couple of metallers I was hoping to talk into recording a full-on electric version with me rather dissed it as being "too hey nonny-nonny": I suppose we all have different perspectives.

Shame; thanks for the expansions though. I know Carthy set it to that particular tune, but I like what you've done with it and could see it going in any number of ways, but as it stands the trance / Velvets thing is very evident & welcome. I've just bought a Kaossilator - a hand-held looping synth no bigger than a slice of toast - and am presently experimenting with using it with the old songs; I could see it fitting in with what you do too actually - trance grooves & all!

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:03 AM

"Surely it's possible to be a traddie and a non-traddie at the same time - enjoying both sides of the folk music coin."
On 29th December last year after Bob Gilroy's funeral in South Shields
Jim Murray, one of the finest Blues performers in the North of England, Dave Smith, a good guitarist in the Martyn/Harper mould and I a traddie(yuk) of forty plus years standing walked out of the crematorium together. We had all been involved in the running of South Tyne Folk and Blues within a ten year time scale and while performing our own music we also had a deep respect for the other types of music on offer at our club. Terms like "traddie" or "Bluesman" were never used in a derogatory sense and no such divisions existed; that is probably why the club enjoyed a lifespan of some twenty years.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,S O'P (Astray)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:42 AM

'Traddies?' Yuk!

There's a picture of Peter Bellamy with a scrabble board (in the booklet of WTVE) on which are the words BLEATING BORING OLD TRADDY. As far as tastes are concerned, they don't come any more eclectic than Bellamy; I have in my keeping a video of an interview filmed in his home with the walls lined with his celebrated cassette collections with the spines spelling out entire back catalogues of rock, jazz, and folk artists. It is well reported that after gigs Bellamy would give serious scrutiny to his hosts record collections, insisting on playing some real music which was seldom revival folk. If that's what being a Traddy is then I can dig it myself, which is the same as the ICTM, which includes folk, popular, classical & urban music too. I wonder, to what extent is the term Traditional Music actually a tautology? Are there any musics which aren't traditional? If so, what are they?

The 'traddies' here generally seem to rush to the barricades only when goaded by agents provocateurs determined to prove that traditional music is the invention of the bourgeoisie, or some such nonsense.

No one said traditional music was the invention of the bourgeoisie, rather than the conditions that define it as being essentially different from other musics are a bourgeois fantasy hatched at a very significant remove from the initial context of a music which is, in fact, only different from other musics in terms of its idiom. Is saying such things being provocative? Myself, I just love the music - all music - having been raised on Pop, Northumbrian piping, Indonesian Gamelan, Plain Chant, Free Improvisation, Albanian Vocal Polyphony, Bothy Ballads, Child Ballads, Torch Ballads, Ars Nova, Prog, Post-Prog, Punk, Post-Punk, Medieval, Thrash, Hip-Hop, Industrial, Experimental, Opera, Baroque, Be-Bob, Free-Bop, Gagaku and Piobaireachd, it seems a tad limiting to use the term Traditional Music to apply to something that is no more or less traditional than anything else.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:27 AM

As an aside (but not straying from topic) and prompted by the mention of the Ian Campbell Group, I am reminded of a set I saw at the weekend from one of Ian's sons, David. The range of material went from unaccompanied Child ballads to contemporary Americana with and without banjo and uke. Here indeed is a man steeped in traditions rooted in areas of his experience backed up by fine musicianship and a voice inherited from his famous family. Which just about sums up what those who are being called "traddies" seek out.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:20 AM

I'm so glad Brian Peters has come along as I was getting dangerously close to demonstrating how, if you're not keen on a tune, you can use or adapt another. As he is the master of this I'll leave it to him, pausing only to agree wholeheartedly that the term "traddie is yuk. Nearly as bad as "folkie". They have been coined purely and simply to engender division, an "us & them" which certainly exists but only in benighted pockets among idiots. They're easy to avoid; for instance if at a festival you see a bar with beards, tie-dies and tankards and a notice reading "no instruments", or another with callow youths escaped from their bedrooms with laments about how the world owes them a living, DON'T GO IN.

Otherwise, I'm entirely with Brian Peters' definition of a "traddie" , which here appears to mean anyone who prefers Beer & Knightley when NOT performing typical SoH material. Of the theory that trad music was invented by the bourgeoisie, this is to totally ignore the huge body of work emanating from miners, seafarers, canal, rail and road construction workers and travellers. One can, of course, understand that such realities of life would not have touched someone from the London Borough of Harrow whose conception of the former Merrie England comes from a chocolate box and other assorted heritage shop tat.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:18 AM

Re what Smedley said above, about ignoring MLC for a day :

All in favour ?

Her conduct is a bit like that of my youngest grandson, aged 7 - can't abear to be ignored.

My own thoughts, when she posts : here's twenty pence, Lizzie - go and phone someone who COULD give a fuck.

After the condemnation by SoH you'd think she'd find a dark corner to curl up in.

Many years ago, Jack and Lyn Taylor published a "folk magazine", and I seem to remember a condemnation of those of us who preferred traditional music to the introspective, navel-gazing compositions of the three chord wonders

in denim caps, written on a piece of shit-paper in the interval : we were labelled "minuscule minded traditionalists". It was a 'label' I wore with pride.

It was the likes of the classic "traddies" - Martin Carthy ; the Watersons ; Alex Campbell ; the Ian Campbell FG (when Swarb was still with it); Dave and Toni Arthur, and their ilk, that put the likes of me back into confidence of the

enduring qualities of traditional music and (with notable exceptions which might prove the rule ) the ephemeral transience of other materials "performed" in folk clubs (see my earlier comments).

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:15 AM

I should add (as the hardened festival goers will have spotted, not least from the dark glasses) that it took most of my set to get most of the previous night's hangover out of my throat.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:03 AM

BTW Crow Sister - I think I have the same radio series from the same source. YOU know who you are, you old traddie, you. What a guy:-)

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:58 AM

The 'traddies' here generally seem to rush to the barricades only when goaded by agents provocateurs determined to prove that traditional music is the invention of the bourgeoisie, or some such nonsense.

Well spotted, Brian:-) It is quite true of course.

Diane - in fairness to those 'on high' I was guilty of starting a thread about why a thread had been closed - which I know we should not do. I was quite rightly chided for doing so and agreed, myself, to not get so hot under the collar about Lizzies goading. So really it was a promise I made myself that I broke, rather than an imposed condition.

In fairness to myself I have neither the patience of a saint nor the wisdom to stop manning the barricades mentioned by Brian when there is no real need. When under attack it is difficult to spot who is firing blanks at times! Going back to my earlier football analogy I can only stand so much 'Your team's a load of wankers' before I will start throwing bottles:-)

Cheers

DeG the hooligan

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Captain Jack Sparrow
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:48 AM

O judgement! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And women have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Tradition,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:39 AM

I didn't really want to talk about me but a couple of things there I cannot let go.


Well, Sweeney, the song is a folk song because of its derivation. Nothing you can do in the way of performance or arrangement of a folk song stops it being a folk song (until you reach the point where it is not that song any more - it has then gone from being "trad/arr" to "original inspired by".

Is it a "cover?" No. My riff is derived from the Carthy riff - but it is different (at least one percussionist I know simply can't play it although he concedes I am consistent, and a kit drummer I know says he can't count it but just has to "play the tune"). I'm not trying to reproduce what Carthy does (fat chance). My version is certainly not the Carthy version (it's missing a whole lot of the verses without I hope losing essential narrative, some verses have been elided, lines have been altered to get rhymes and a constant metre) and I was looking for (and I think got) a presentation that was somewhere between dance/trance on the one hand but the superficial constancy with lots of little shadings that the Velvet Underground used to do.

Lizzie: If you don't hear the changes then either I'm doing it wrong or you are not listening, but on that particular occasion I did have people boogieing at the back of the tent, so maybe the dance/trance part sort of clicks. Nice chap though Seth Lakeman appears to be I find his stuff rather samey - so I don't see why you can boogie his boogie (when the words are very hard to hear) yet not find a similar drive in this rivetting song. But de gustibus non disputandum.

Sweeney: The deadly story (still with it's basic melody) however is still a folk song. A couple of metallers I was hoping to talk into recording a full-on electric version with me rather dissed it as being "too hey nonny-nonny": I suppose we all have different perspectives.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:39 AM

Most of the people I know who are deeply into traditional music ('Traddies?' Yuk!) actually have very broad tastes, including (farily obviously) traditional music from other parts of the world, but also other things ranging from vintage rock'n'roll to modern dance music, heavy metal, classical or quirky prog rock. The 'founding fathers' Lloyd and MacColl were both very knowledgable about music from other cultures. Many 'traddies' also enjoy recently composed songs and instrumental music written within the general parameters of the tradition, but not too many of them enjoy the more confessional style of singer-songwriter exemplified by the likes of James Taylor and Jackson Browne, which you used to hear a good deal of in folk clubs of yesteryear - hence the 'Trad versus Contemporary' split that Howard Jones analysed sensibly above.

What happens on Mudcat is a separate issue from what happens in real life. The 'traddies' here generally seem to rush to the barricades only when goaded by agents provocateurs determined to prove that traditional music is the invention of the bourgeoisie, or some such nonsense.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:18 AM

Well, of course, if MLC really were organising the Torbay Festival, a radio programme and campaigns for this and that, we could all contribute ideas and (possibly) support for these and not just about her. As it is, all that can be done is to contradict every outpouring of mindless drivel and tell her why she is WRONG. I see DtG has been instructed from on high not to do this, and an entirely on-topic contribution from Richard Bridge demonstrating how unreal bonkers her drivel is has disappeared.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:17 AM

I think it's a bit like football, MikeL2 - Not that I know anything about that! Supporters have to have a go at the 'other team' whether they have an admiration for them or not and the closer the teams get - the greater the rivalry.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:06 AM

hi ruth

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:27 AM

I am in complete agreement with what you say. What I was pointing out was that any newcomer here would get the opposite impression.

regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Smedley
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:00 AM

Can we have an agreement to stop talking about Lizzie for a day? Please? Pretty please?...


-------------------------------------

Given what she has been saying in the thread about 'blame' and rape, I suspect not.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:54 AM

Can we have an agreement to stop talking about Lizzie for a day? Please? Pretty please?...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:51 AM

Here's an example of a song based on the memories of an old Wolds farmer who I knew many years ago - it sort of blurs the boundaries between traditional and contemporary:

It's also deeply dreadful

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM

If you go to a club, the vibe is always welcoming. Lizzie I reckon you need to get out a bit more and meet real people instead of squabbling on here. If you did, your opinion would no-doubt to a swift u-turn.

And if you are going to get out a bit more - would you be kind enough to warn us in advance.

But I suspect your idea will fall on deaf ears. All other helpful advice has. She was offered shedloads of help when she wanted to run a folk festival, specialising in artists who Lizzie thought ought to be headlining and weren't.

Do anyone get any thanks? Nope.

Did the festival go ahead? Nope.

Another piece of Lizziana.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:41 AM

For me it was the tradition that came before the music - it was my love of history, legend, etc. that brought me into contact with folk music. That led on to writing songs myself, but many of these are based on the history, traditions and stories of the East Riding of Yorkshire where I live. I have even had people claim that some of them are traditional songs, though I have never ever tried to pass them off as such.

Here's an example of a song based on the memories of an old Wolds farmer who I knew many years ago - it sort of blurs the boundaries between traditional and contemporary:

jack and jill

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:27 AM

Mike L2: most of the Mudcatters I have met enjoy a variety of music, traditional and non-traditional. But some people here have invested a lot of time and energy trying to turn "trad" into a dirty word, and vilifying people who enjoy traditional music, or the scholarship that sometimes accompanies research into the roots of songs. This is usually more about their own insecurity than any situation that exists in reality. In real life, very few people only enjoy one type of music, and the entire "argument", such as it is, is an entirely false construct.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MikeL2
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:22 AM

Hi leveller

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: theleveller - PM
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:54 AM

<"Surely it's possible to be a traddie and a non-traddie at the same time - enjoying both sides of the folk music coin. Personally, I think they complement each other">

This is the most sensible post on this ( and other parallel ones )topic

Of course you are right. It is only here on Mudcat that they are not.
Most ( dare I use the word) folk musicians that I have met have great respect for each other regardless of what kind of music they play or sing. Most audiences too enjoy most types of *folk.

Of course there are always exceptions - on all sides.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:09 AM

"I don't get pictures with it, Tam....the monotony of the tune obscures the story for me. It dominates the song, rather than the words. My brain shuts dow and wanders right away."


So what? Who cares if you get pictures or not? Is this thread about what we can do to make traditional music more appealing to Lizzie Cornish? No, it's about people who appreciate traditional music, and the people within it. If you don't relate to either of these things, why keep coming to the thread to have gratuitous pops at something you neither like nor understand?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:59 AM

"From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM
This idea that there is a group of people who are trying to keep other people from discovering folk and traditional music is something I have never experienced or encountered. The most knowledgeable people I have met on the folk scene are always keen to share their knowledge and welcome new people, in my experience. And I am eternally grateful to them."

Yes to all the above.

In fact people have gone out of their way to be supportive of my interest in traditional songs (hence the reason behind my initial post made last Spring). And still do, I received two parcels of discs from a fellow poster in the last few weeks (one of a radio documentary series and another full of ballads). Both volunteered by him. I wonder why he did that?

If you go to a club, the vibe is always welcoming. Lizzie I reckon you need to get out a bit more and meet real people instead of squabbling on here. If you did, your opinion would no-doubt to a swift u-turn.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:54 AM

Surely it's possible to be a traddie and a non-traddie at the same time - enjoying both sides of the folk music coin. Personally, I think they complement each other, otherwise I'd be constantly beating myself up (and quite right too, I hear you cry).

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Helen Jocys
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:27 AM

To 'Folk Police', please identify yourself on Wednesday at the Beech! Re 'Traddies', I am a dyed-in-the-wool Wagnerian; adore Beethoven et al but also love my folk music/songs.
HelenJ

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:46 AM

(felt like I was being smothered. "If only!" they all cried in unison)

Bloody hell Lizzie has written two things I have agreed with in one thread.

For the rest of you, Lizzie and I have been swapping humorous comments about each other for simply ages.

She loves it - don't you sweetums?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:27 AM

I don't get pictures with it, Tam....the monotony of the tune obscures the story for me. It dominates the song, rather than the words. My brain shuts dow and wanders right away. I tried to concentrate on the words but nope, I was watching Richard playing the guitar, his body language, the inside of the marquee, but my attention won't stay on that song. I never even get to the end of it...

It is *nothing* to do with Richard or the way he sings it, and that point I want to get across, it is purely the song/tune itself.


Now when John started singing 'Marks In The Grass', which I think is wonderful I was off and running! The gypsies, their history, the way they live their lives, how they're treated by society, the terrors, the horrors they so often endure, simply for living their lives they way they chose, differently to others...I was looking up all sorts of information, still have it here in my 'favourites' as I was going to write a long piece on it....Very moving and inspirational song.

But 'Famous Flowers', no...the first time I heard it, and that was Martin Carthy's version, with the same tune, I just wanted to escape, had a terrible feeling of claustrophobia, felt like I was being smothered. ("If only!" they all cried in unison) :0)


Thanks, Jim, I'd like to think you're not an airhead either.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,S O'P (Perplexed)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:20 AM

Thanks, Lizzy - nice to see The Boy Bridge in the flesh after all these years of imagining him as sharp-suited legal-eagle with hair by Versace BUT what I'd like to know is how a cover-version of a Martin Carthy setting off a Martin Carthy LP remains a Folk Song according to his definition of things? Or is this the Oral Tradition at work? Could be at that...

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:00 AM

I think Richard sings it most ably. I also think that one of the most beautiful of ballad tunes. Tastes naturally vary; but I do think, Lizzie, that you underrate a very fine ballad.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:58 AM

Forgot to add this for all (myself included).

PLEASE try to handle disagreements respectfully (no insults or language designed to cause pain or embarrassment) and only in the present moment. Do not bring up the past. Past grievance has no place in the present and only destroys both the accuser and accused.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:51 AM

Thank you for posting that Lizzie... I enjoy hearing Richard perform that piece, every time he does it at mutually attended sessions. Which is not often enough. and NOW... I can attend to what he is saying without all the external noise.

Thank you again!

By the way, Lizzie, what is your interpretation the story of Fairest Flower of Serving Men? Quick now, with no cheating by looking at other resources.

I charge you to try and find what is good about the song.
Here's a tip. Listen to the words. You claim that you think in pictures. Well the imagery in the ballad is stunning. Glean the story for those pictures.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

Nope, I don't do all that history and arrangements stuff, Diane. I love the songs for very different reasons to you,

And the reasons you love the songs ARE????:

I know - you love the artists, you love the boysies, and you love being able to post your enthusiams about bands the rest of us discovered by going to festivals and clubs. Spending our own money. On listening to bands live.

It's how the bands you like make a living Lizzie. Which festivals you going to this year?

Which folk clubs you going to?

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:23 PM

"simply means I love different things to you, that's all."
You are very fond of using the term 'folk police' yet you spend a great deal of time berating people who don't like the things you like and pontificating on why they don't like them - isn't there a message for you in there somewhere Lizzie.
I would like to believe that you aren't a somewhat eccentric, attention-seeking airhead, so please stop acting like one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:16 PM

simply means I love different things to you, that's all.

Exactly, Lizzie. And surely if you can see that then you can see that not everyone loves whoever it is that you love at the moment and not everyone will agree with your postings. What is the problem? When someone says 'It's not really my cup of tea' how come you equate it to 'you are soulless and have no passion'? You can be very insulting at times.

Sorry Joe, I know I said I would not engage but I cannot help it with that one!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:30 PM

Oh, LOOK! :0)

Richard, cogitating with the Famous Flower..

Very nice, but it's the same, all the way through...it doesn't alter, ALL the way through. It's just the song, not the way you sing it, it's that bloomin' song...and the tune.

Not for me..

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:11 PM

Oh, The chip shop one went in the thread about fish and chips, remember? :0)

Nope, I don't do all that history and arrangements stuff, Diane. I love the songs for very different reasons to you, and don't have any concerns about taking an NVQ in folk song. I love the characters, the passion, all the things that happen, but who collected it, when, where and what they did with it? Nope, that's really not that important to me.

It doesn't make me thick (steady, lads!)...simply means I love different things to you, that's all. however, I appreciate that you love all that research stuff...that's fine, but just don't expect everyone else to do it too, for there's no rule which states that I have to learn the entire history of the song, apart from in your mind.

If it's 19 minutes of excellent music and song, beautifully played and sung, then that's fine by me, it'll have me transfixed, but..if it's 19 minutes of dirge then nope, I'd rather be washing me hair.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 01:41 PM

When Chris Wood did Lord Bateman and One In A Million back to back live on Late Junction it lasted almost 19 minutes. Using her methodology of reasoning, it is to be supposed that MLC "loathes" this rendition even more than FFoSM. But does she know the stories behind these songs, their histories or how to compare various arrangements? Of course not.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: GUEST,Seamus
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:18 PM

There are no stranglers here, only friends...etc.
There certainly are stranglers.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 12:16 PM

The most knowledgeable people I have met on the folk scene are always keen to share their knowledge and welcome new people, in my experience. And I am eternally grateful to them.

I'll echo that.

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:42 AM

"American Pie" is 8:36 minutes. Now that's long.

Looking round at a few random YouTubes:

The Wife of Usher's Well - 5:11
Willie o Winsbury - 5:19
The False Knight on the Road - 2:34
Edward, Edward - 3:36
Dives and Lazarus - 4:01
Lord Randal - 5:22
The Golden Vanity - 5:06
Geordie - 3:48
Mary Hamilton - 2:59
Two Sisters - 4:01
My Son David - 4:01

Dear Mr President (Pink) - 4:59
Cry Me Out (Pixie Lott) - 4:12
Wanderlust (Björk) - 7:39
Like a Virgin (Madonna) - 7:31
Vincent (Josh Groban) - 5:46
Fuck Forever (Babyshambles) - 4:46
Everywhere I Go (Oysterband) - 7:07
Hard On Me (Richard Thompson) - 7:02

Looking at revival/folk-rock performances of "She Moved Through the Fair" gives some extraordinary figures. How on earth did Pentangle manage to spin it out to 12:26? (I have no intention of listening to it - 5:30 of Richard Thompson maundering on with pointless guitar decorations and an Oirish accent was bad enough).

Subject: RE: In Praise of Traddies!
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:10 AM

Re my earlier post: Thanks for demonstrating what I mean.