English Folk - Peasants to Professors

Subject: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 May 09 - 07:44 AM

Seeing the flak that Kate Rusby is now getting in this thread...

Kate Rusby - 'My Music'

....I was wondering how we got to this stage, in the English folk world.

HOW has a music once sung by the likes of ordinary people, The Peasants, if you want to call them that..how has it now become the 'precious treasure' of The Professors?

How has it become so controlled by those who demand that the correct history of the song is constantly given out, when these songs were sung by people who didn't give a shite about the history of them....They just SANG them, and I've no doubt that each time they were sung they were changed, notes here and there, words, intonation, etc...

Songs constantly change and evolve.

I get the impression that Kate is regarded poorly by The Traditionalists because she dares to change the songs around, chop bits out here and there, add other bits..

Is that really such a crime?

Is that not what has been going on for centuries?

How do you know that the songs collected by The Collectors are the original versions of the songs? They may have already changed a thousand fold by the time they stopped the process of that happening, in their saying "THIS is the way the song should be!"

Songs are sung by people. They are an expression of the individual, as much as the masses.

It saddens me that the English have surrounded the songs with Academia and Pedantics.

Personally, I think the time has come for The Peasants (of which I am one) to take the songs BACK from The Professors.

Long live The Bearers of the New Tradition, for they are taking the songs back to the people, maybe changed, but in A Living Breath.

Anyway, here's Kate with a song The Professors may approve of:

Kate Rusby - I Am Stretched On Your Grave

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: curmudgeon
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:20 AM

Troll Alert!!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:23 AM

Isn't this just another thread about Kate Rusby? Sure looks like it to me..

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:26 AM

I thank KR for being one of the artists that led me to this music.

As for peasants to professors?

Since there are precious few peasants producing composing any more and even fewer preserving and conserving the past, I am even more grateful to those "academics" who do.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:34 AM

Nope, it's not a 'troll alert' at all. What I'm trying to say is that many people are put OFF the songs that once used to belong to them because of how serious it's all become.

Yes, Tam, I agree, but...once again, we're back to the traditional world perhaps needing to take a step back, and look at themselves in a different way.

Yes, what they're doing, what they've done, is a good thing, but it's had repercussions. In making this world elitist, it has driven many away, and that, to me, isn't a good thing. To constantly snub the very artists who *are* bringing people back to folk music seems to be shooting yourself in the foot, isn't it?

Here's an intersting New Traditional song...

Sinead O'Connor - 'Famine'

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:34 AM

Some people might not care, but I *do* want to know the history of the song. It's what makes it so much more interesting to listen to and to sing. Plus while the people who created those songs might have been peasants, Kate certainly isn't one.
She can read and right as well as anyone I'm sure. And I suspect the only callouses on those hands are from playing instruments. I bet she can even read music quite well too!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:53 AM

Of course, the "peasants" were innocent, brainless creatures who found the songs in the fields and twittered them like birds ... possibly?

"'Ere, Garge were'd you larn that, there song that you sung in the pub larst noight?"

" Oi dun't roightly know, Jethro - oi carn't quoite remember - that sort of fell out 'o the sky, loike ... oi think ...?"

"Well that were roight good - pity oi'm too simple to properly appreeshate it, loike."

"Yeah we're proper thick 'corse we're jus' peasants, loike."

" Ah, mebe you'm be roight - perhaps in a 'undred years them thar perfessers 'ull appreeshate 'um more loike."

"Ahh - mebe."

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: curmudgeon
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:56 AM

"Here's an intersting New Traditional song..."

Not a song, not traditional   - Troll alert #2.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 May 09 - 09:14 AM

You see, there you go again...instant sniffiness. :0)

Personally, I just feel it's far better that the more popular performers ARE taking those roots out to young people, rather than having them belittled because The Professors feel they're not doing it in the correct way.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 May 09 - 09:29 AM

I get the impression that Kate is regarded poorly by The Traditionalists because she dares to change the songs around, chop bits out here and there, add other bits..

I don't know where you got that impression from. The complaint that's made against Ms Rusby on that thread is that she referred to The Recruited Collier as a traditional song about miners. It's been known for several years that A. L. Lloyd adapted it from a poem (about a conscripted farm worker) by a dialect poet called Robert Anderson - then made out that he'd collected a local song of which Anderson's poem was an imperfect version.

This isn't about writing new songs or changing the old ones - it's about telling the truth.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 May 09 - 09:38 AM

If we're being strict on teminology I'd argue with "peasants", who didn't really exist as such in the country after the enclosure movement, if we accept the views of the esteemed W.G.Hoskins

According to my father-in-law, peasants nowadays come from Luton, so who am I to argue?

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 May 09 - 09:45 AM

Kate has said it herself, Pip. She talks about how she loves to do just that, and how it's frowned upon by some within the folk world.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 May 09 - 10:01 AM

I think I understand that Kate Rusby is second generation folkie, raised in the tradition by her parents etc. It is unfortunate that the attribution of the Recruited Collier is incorrect. Given her upbringing, it seems to me such a mistake should not have been made and is even more difficult to swallow.

For myself, I want to know whether a song I enjoy is trad or merely folk-oid. I want to know the proper origins. I want to trace the evolution of a song through its permutations through different cultures and artists. I want to discover the kernel DNA that puts it into a time and place of inception.

If that makes me an elitist, then so be it.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 31 May 09 - 10:35 AM

"'Ere, Garge, wot do you think o' that Lizzie Cornish, loike?"

"Well, Jethro, oi think she dun't much loike perfessers, loike."

"Why's that, then, Garge?"

"Well, Jethro, oi think it's because they moight make 'er think through 'er opinions, loike, afore she posts 'em on Mudcat, loike."

"An d'yer think that they moight make 'er think about the songs as well, Garge - where they came from an such?"

"You'm could be roight there, Jethro - carn't say as I blame 'er though - it makes my 'ead 'urt - but oi'm just a simple peasant, loike!"

"Them perfessers dun't stop 'er thinking about that Seth Lakeman, though, do they, Garge?"

"No, they dun't Jethro - but the less said about that, the better - she moight be lisennin' loike!"

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 09 - 10:46 AM

"many people are put OFF the songs that once used to belong to them because of how serious it's all become."
One of those threads based on "I treat folk music superficially so why can't everyone?" with the added rider - "I like Kate Rusby so why doesn't everyone?"
Any chance of leaving us to decide for ourselves how we draw pleasure from the music, and maybe even decide who we choose to listen to?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 09 - 11:28 AM

I get increasingly tired of the way people get forced into one or other positions.

For the record, although my musical tastes do tend to take me towards the more traditional and away from "Dylan/contemporary protest" and try to do my best with a song or tune, I am one of the "find a set of words on the dt and sing it", types rather than a song researcher.

I did however learn a few things over here and they included Malcolm's comments on the shortcomings of copy pastes from unknown websites, problems with wrong attributions, etc. as well as becoming more and more aware of people who really do want to study a folk song in depth.

From my point of view (and from my side the folkinfo song database had this in mind to), there is no hassle in trying to provide accurate information. No, I'll go further, I believe whether a "grab any copy" like me or not, we should try to provide the correct information rather than repeat information known to be wrong..

If that makes me a professor, I apologise.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 May 09 - 11:46 AM

Nowt wrong with accurate information, Jon. What I'm saying is the 'seriousness' which surrounds English folk music, seems to me, something peculiar to us. I don't hear the Americans, Australians or Canadians getting their knickers in such a twist about their songs.
They seem so much more relaxed about it all.

I wish we could be more like them, that's all.

I think the sniffy pomposity so often seen here and elsewhere, puts a lot of folks off.


From Shimrod:

"Them perfessers dun't stop 'er thinking about that Seth Lakeman, though, do they, Garge?"

"No, they dun't Jethro - but the less said about that, the better - she moight be lisennin' loike!"

Very good, Shimmy. I chuckled hugely over your post. LOL :0) I don't 'think' about Seth though. Love his music, that's all. I'm old enough to be his Granny...maybe his Great Granny! Eek! I've just put 'Poor Man's Heaven' on to play though, as my daughter's away this weekend, so I can get to listen to it for a change, so thanks for reminding me about him...'The Hurlers' has just started..

Here, you can join in tapping your feet with me...Turn it up real loud though. :0)

Seth's 'The Hurlers' filmed at The Minack Theatre - Cornwall

The Hurlers themselves

Built by Rowena Cade and her gardener...The most AMAZING place! Two amazing people. If you've never seen it, SEE it! It's totally beautiful, set against the backdrop of a turquoise Cornish sea...
The Minack Theatre


Lizzie - Proud to be a Peasant :0)

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 May 09 - 11:58 AM

Maybe then Lizzie with some things. you read things that aren't really there.

Mudcat for example had existed for years with "just singers" and "song researchers" (and some bits of both) without (that I can think of) major disagreements in the topic area you seem to be raising.

I wouldn't suggest Americans and Canadians have not been without problems here or other places. I could reel you of a list like ghost, Janet, ttcm, Martin Gibson, etc.

Perhaps we do bite at different things but I think more to the point is whats been happening over the last couple of years seems to start with English groups and the English folk scene.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 May 09 - 12:28 PM

"I get increasingly tired of the way people get forced into one or other positions."

Indeed, Jon. Most people I know who are interested in the history of songs, whether for their own personal edification or because of wider research interests, are able to enjoy a diverse variety of music - they just happen to have a context for the musics they enjoy. They also have great senses of humour and are a laugh to be around.

I think this polarisation is a figment of the imagination, personally. For example, although I love traditional and source singers, I also loved what Jim Moray did with Lucy Wan on Low Culture. But I also know that Jim Moray will not have created that arrangement without knowing exactly where the song comes from, and without having considered carefully its new setting. It's about respect, and the integrity of the music.

I sometimes hear a song from a revival singer and think, "I'd like to learn that." If I can, I find a source recording because I like to know how the singer first heard it, and which embellishments to the words or tune they may have put in themselves. But when it comes to how I sing it myself, I choose whichever bits of the tune or the words that I like best, and then I sing it in my own style, with my own embellishments. So this idea that having respect for the tradition equates to slavish devotion, or in fact is any kind of limit or constraint, is rubbish. IMHO, of course.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 May 09 - 01:14 PM

I get the impression that Kate is regarded poorly by The Traditionalists because she dares to change the songs around, chop bits out here and there, add other bits.

Lizzie - I do not know where you get this impression from.

Let me try and explain at least part of the process to you since you clearly do not fully understand it. We now know that much of the material we regard as "traditional" comes from broadsides. As they were carried orally around the country people remembered them wrongly, misheard words forgot verses and so on and different versions emerged.

There are lots of songs out there. If you go back to the originals as collected by Broadwood, Sharp, Baring-Gould etc. then you will find that more often than not what they collected were fragments, some large fragments, some small fragments, some complete, some telling slightly different stories.

What people who write song books do is often "collate" different versions to make a "singable version" and people who buy those books sing those "collated/singable" versions.

Fine examples of this are the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs - first published 1959 and from which lots of people sing songs, and Marrow Bones, another popular collection. I mention those two books in particular because someone who was well known to Mudcatters, did the research on the new versions of those books, tracing the original versions and singers. That was Malcolm Douglas.

He would fall into your definition of "professors" I suppose though in reality for the last few years of his life he was a Post Office sorter and before that an illustrator. What he did was carefully research what people wrote, said and did, and corrected obvious errors. He was keen to see things done correctly. That is all. He couldn't have cared less what people did with songs any more those people you have classified as "traditionalists" do, because they know that songs are constantly changing and evolving.

Most singers re-write songs, miss out verses, swap verses around.

The EFDSS magazine edited by Derek Schofield has a feature on this in each edition. The feature is called "The Singer and the Source".

The latest edition focusses on a song sung by Jon Boden and Bellowhead, "The Rigs of the Time" . The article gives the version sung by Jon; the original BBC recording from "Charger" Salmons ; other versions; who sings them; which verses and in what order. It has contemporary verses, written in the the style of the song from MArtin Carthy and from Maddy Prior and so on.

Why not join the society and see what they actually have to say instead of relying on your "impressions"?

Let me try and put this another way.

As usual you are talking bollocks.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 09 - 01:38 PM

Bollocks indeed.

I've little I could add to what Ruth and Dave have said above, other than to point out the bleeding obvious. The OP invents some "flak" directed at kR in the thread about a C5 docco. Speaking personally, I was criticising the sloppy production and lack of research that allowed kR's mother to give erroneous attribution to a song. As a former telly researcher, I'd curl up in embarrassment if I'd let such a booboo through.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 31 May 09 - 01:50 PM

"Each generation has their own influences. It's how tradition goes on, it's how it marches on. The music itself you can do whatever you want with it, it's very forgiving." - Norma Waterson, taken from Eliza Carthy's 'My Music' video - (see seperate thread)

:0)

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 09 - 01:54 PM

And?

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:01 PM

Indeed - I believe I was making exactly the same points just a few posts ago.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:05 PM

I actually don't think that Lizzie understands.
Or indeed, ever will.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:06 PM

"We now know that much of the material we regard as "traditional" comes from broadsides."
Er....
With respect Dave - we know no such thing - broadside production was very much a two-way street, with publishers taking as much from the tradition as they put in.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:13 PM

Confused here.
Am I a Peasant or a Professor?
I don't mind which, I'd just like to know....
Only asking...

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Blowzabella
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:21 PM

Gosh, it's been a long time since I posted on here :)

I just wanted to say that, for me, I can enjoy hearing or learning a song much more if I know something about its context and the journey it has taken, to get to where it is when I hear it. I would also think that, from Lizzie's perspective, it would be invaluable - even if we don't know the name of the individual who wrote a particular song, knowing the period it came from throws light on what the creator(s) would have been concerned about or the mood of the 'peasants'.

Tangental but, I would have enjoyed doing Thomas Hardy much more, at school, if the historical context had been given to me (both as to when and why he was writing the books and the context of the periods they were set in) and I would have appreciated the books more if I'd been able to understand what the concerns of his characters were.      

For me, context is all - I'm afraid I rarely just enjoy a song or a piece of music without it. Maybe it's my loss ... dunno ...

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:38 PM

> Personally, I think the time has come for The Peasants (of which I am one) to take the songs BACK from The Professors.

Lizzie,the songs have never gone away from the "peasants" or indeed the "rustics" which the collectors also spoke of. I'm mystified as to who these "professors" that you refer to are ... the likes of Jim Causley, who is intensely interested in the songs that he sings, and their backgrounds; Jim Moray (who Ruth referred to), who is also interested in the historical side, but then goes on to do very interesting and exciting things with the music, or current day researchers, most of whom are also singers and performers passionate about taking the music outside the spheres of academia? The breed that you're referring to really doesn't exist, and nor do the peasants (always a rather misleading term that the 19th century collectors used, for lack of a better term for the working class labourers that on the whole they tended to collect from)

> Long live The Bearers of the New Tradition, for they are taking the songs back to the people, maybe changed, but in A Living Breath.

A rather splendid sounding set of rather meaningless sentiments. Which new tradition would that be? The introduction of piano accompaniments in the late 19th century ? The use of the guitar as accompaniment from the mid- 20th century, or concertina round about the same time? The introduction of folk rock in the 1970's ? The songs have never gone away from the people ... they have _always_ been changed, even today (most singers I know use phrases from songs they like, introduce them to other versions of the song with a tune they prefer, or leave irrelevant verses out, or even choruses, so that the song is one that THEY feel comfortable with)... they get changed via the longstanding oral tradition, and current fashions. For instance, believe it or not, it wasn't the usual fashion in the 19th century to sing traditional songs to a guitar accompaniment - but these days we wouldn't necessarily view that as untoward

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:54 PM

I have to concur with Surreysinger on this one.
Lizzie. A question.
From which standpoint do you come from? Professorial or Peasant?
The nature of traditions is that they change relentlessly.
Just because you have come across a couple of "Rawk" bands that have adapted the traditional versions of songs to their own way of thinking, (and fair play to them, why not?), doesn't make you the ultimate arbiter as to the validity of other peoples interpretations of old songs/tunes.
As a musician, my feeling is that one can only shape the future when one has understood the past.
And everyone has their own way of dealing with that.
Jim Moray, Jon Boden, Ashley Hutchings, Martin Carthy....(Need I go on?)
They all have their take on the tradition, and move it on in their own direction.
As do I.
Lizzie, when you've learnt how to sing, or play a musical instrument, then you will deserve the right to comment on other peoples abilities, and their motives for what they do.
Until then. as Ivor Cutler once famously said................."Don't"

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:59 PM

"An American Indian sun-dance or an Australian corroboree is an exciting spectacle for the uninitiated, but for one who understands something of the culture whence it springs it is a hundred fold more heart-moving. "
Lowry C Wimberly - introduction to Folklore In The English and Scottish Ballads.
Blowzabella says it all somewhat more succinctly.
There are many and various ways to enjoy folksong and singing other than the "there wasn't a dry seat in the house" one that Lizzie appears to favour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:11 PM

I am firmly of the opinion that far too many of the people who post here , especially with regard to Traditional Music , would be TOTALLY at a loss at MOST Sessions and Sing arounds as they are NOT Performers , even at local club Floor singer level .


Especially the poeople who tell those of us who DO Qualify as performers what we should be doing !

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:27 PM

Looking at the names of those on this thread that I know, I'd have to say that the over 50% of them DO perform in one way or another Terry ... so I wonder who you're referring to?

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:36 PM

"Each generation has their own influences. It's how tradition goes on, it's how it marches on. The music itself you can do whatever you want with it, it's very forgiving." - Norma Waterson, taken from Eliza Carthy's 'My Music' video - (see seperate thread)

Lizzie - Since that precisely cotradicts what you were saying at the start of this thread I stand by what I said. You talk round spherical objects.

Jim,

I take your point and you are right of course - it was a two way process. I was trying to emphasise that we didn't recognise the influence of broadsides in the past as much as we do now.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:38 PM

Well. I think I qualify as a performer!!!
Getting on for 40 years of it now!!!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: curmudgeon
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:41 PM

I don't think Terry was referring to this thread per se, but rather similar threads/Mudcat in general - Tom

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:02 PM

For my own part, if anything, knowing the history of the song adds a dimension of intimacy which brings you closer to the err 'peasant' (as that's the term in the OP) origins of the song itself. Otherwise it's just a nice pretty girl or boy singing some oldy worldy sounding song.

In fact what can also be nice, is reading what different revival singers have to say about the same traditional song that they've each sung (one of the reasons I quite like to peruse the following website), and the way it affected them individually. Take for example one song I've started learning: Poor Murdered Woman The artists who recorded this song, are themselves interested in knowing and speaking about their responses to the history of the song, I found Shirley Collins sleeve notes especially interesting. Note also the variations listed.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:06 PM

Good song to choose, Crow Sister - based on a real event, newspaper clippings of the period available. Some might say not a traditional song exactly, as we know exactly who wrote it !

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:09 PM

Yeah, I wondered if it might not be strictly 'traditional'. Though I've also seen some debate about that particular issue with known authorship.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:15 PM

However, dodgy site to choose for accurate information. The song wasn't actually collected by Lucy Broadwood herself - it was submitted to her by the Rev Charles J Shebbeare, who was the actual collector, and then published in her collection "Traditional Songs and Carols". See this link for Lucy's own words about the song. The site you have used is a German one, and like many others repeats the error regarding the actual collector.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:15 PM

Sorry - you got your response in first there!! [grin]

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 09 - 05:15 PM

"However, dodgy site to choose for accurate information."

I'm sure you're right there. And again illustrates the continuence of misinformation, which no doubt abounds, and which - if your going to say anything at all, aught to be avoided.

Though the reason I linked, was specifically to illustrate how different revival singers have commented on the history of the same song, *and* also adapted it.

I used Poor Murdered Woman as an example, because I'm learning it and, and because I enjoyed reading Shirley Collins own response to the songs history. I hope that makes sense!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 May 09 - 05:43 PM

How nice to see the massive support for the "roots" approach.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 31 May 09 - 07:25 PM

> I hope that makes sense !
Certainly does!

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Anglo
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 12:27 AM

I'd like to bring this thread back to its beginning. Lizzie darling, you and I have never conversed before though through this forum I know of your love for certain pop-folk singers. I played your first KR cut linked on your very first post to see what you were espousing now, and heard a song plainly sung, with a bit of a Celtic Twilight feel in the mercifully sparse accompaniment. (I do not dislike, KR, I own a few of her CDs). But that paarticular song is that I missed when it was first written and recorded some 20 or so years ago, I believe, but it struck me with some immediacy when I heard the recording by Peta Webb & Ken Hall. THAT one forced me to sit up and listen to the words. KR's doesn't. And that for me is what folk music is about, professors or not.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Reinhard
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 01:49 AM

Surreysinger wrote:
See this link for Lucy's own words about the song. The site you have used is a German one, and like many others repeats the error regarding the actual collector.

Your statement seems to imply that just because this is a German site it can't be any good. Thank you very much for your constructive criticism.

My website is a fan website for a few revival singers, nothing more. I try to add a bit of information to the songs and I usually trust what I find in the respective album's sleeve notes. When I'm told that this is imprecise I will glady amend it as I did in this case. Thank you.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM

As is usually the case in discussions like this, it's not a case of either/or. Traditional songs work on two levels: as songs and as social commentary . What brought me to the songs in the first place was the history behind them and I want to know the background of the songs I hear and sing.

Many contemporary singer/songwriters in the folk genre base their songs on historical events – often undertaking a great deal of research to get the details correct. It's what I do with many of the songs I write. Reg Meuross is particularly fascinated by the background to the 'story' songs he writes. For instance, we recently had a discussion about the nature of 'fustian' apropos the fustian coat that Dick wears in his song 'Lizzie Loved a Highwayman'. This led me to discover a now largely forgotten strike in Hebden Bridge, a fustian-weaving centre, that started in 1906, lasted over 2 years and had greater social implications than the Miners' Strike of the 1980s. Great material for a song.

Some friends of mine, the folk duo Brother Crow, write and perform wonderful songs often based on some of the murkier aspects of history from their native Weardale. At Ryedale Folk Weekend they gave a multimedia presentation based around their research into the background of some of their songs. It was absolutely fascinating (if, at times, harrowing) and brought the songs into even greater perspective. These guys are not 'professors'; they're fine musicians who want to know as much as possible about the background of their songs. Their research and the song they produced recently led to the restoration and rededication of a monument to a forgotten local hero, Tom Barton, who attempted to pull a child from a burning house.

Surely the whole point of folk songs is that they are more than just songs – they are our history, our roots, an oral history as seen from a different perspective to the educated classes who wrote the history book, and they deserve to be preserved as such.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM

From the original post:

"How do you know that the songs collected by The Collectors are the original versions of the songs?"

We don't, and nobody ever said that they were. It's interesting to compare different versions, though.

"...these songs were sung by people who didn't give a shite about the history of them..."

You never met Bob Copper, then.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 07:22 AM

> Your statement seems to imply that just because this is a German site it can't be any good. Thank you very much for your constructive criticism.

Sorry Reinhard - mea culpa - that was a very poor choice of words on my part. There was no implied criticism about the source of your site - purely an indication that, as with many other sites, the source of that song was wrongly attributed. (Mike Harding made a similar mistake on his Radio programme the other week). My apologies.

Subject: RE: English Folk - Peasants to Professors
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM

I've PM'd Reinhard to apologise personally, and to discuss one or two other points. (Re the point made about it being a German site,incidentally, I hasten to add that this was intended to indicate that it had nothing to do with a Surrey folk arts impresario, which might have been inferred from it's name ... and nothing more than that). My apologies again.