The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat

Subject: Mudcat closes two Threads
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:15 AM

I am reminded of the scene from The Life Of Brian - and how much wisdom there is in that supposedly purely comedy film - where the two rival Judean Liberation groups break into the palace to kidnap Pilate's wife and when they find that they both have the same aim, they end up slaughtering one another whilst the Roman guards look on shaking their heads in disbelief.

Do the various Judeans resemble the fractious British folkies on Mudcat and the Roman guards, the American board administrators?

Mudcat can be source of knowledge, information and fun but recently too many threads have decended to out and out insults. Two things will need to happen to recover the position.

1] The board administrators will need to take a much more firm hand than in the past; distinguish between differences of opinion - which are healthy - and personal insult - which is destructive and will frighten users off the board. They should act more quickly to close threads where the line between difference of opinion and insult is crossed.

2] The users of this board should give more thought to what they are posting and not rush to post in anger. The admirably open policy of Mudcat and its reluctance to ban individuals does mean that there will be internet trolls posting here whose main aim is to draw attention to themselves, whatever form that attention takes. The only way to deal with such posters is to ignore them by making your own points and only responding with pro- or anti- statements to the views expressed and leaving all personal insults out. No amount of name-calling will discourage a troll, so please just ignore them and post round them. Perhaps they will then go away and post elsewhere

This is a call for a fresh start which I feel in much needed here.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:36 AM

I am in total agreement,bullying of people ,has to stop,people are entitled to different opinions.

Vic,this should be left to Joe Offer and his moderators.it is ill advised to try and tell them how to run their forum.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:38 AM

Hear, Hear - here, here.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: GUEST,George Spiggott
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:42 AM

Life of Brian does indeed contain quite a few scenes applicable to the English Folk Circuit. But what was being said on those two threads resembled more a Little Britain sketch, in which The Only Folk Fan In The Village went on and on and on and on and on about the same old things while several people who ought to know a great deal better tried to kick her head in. Deeply unpleasant.

Think before you post and don't feed the trolls are indeed two good maxims.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:43 AM

Only 2?

Personally I am in favour of unmoderated message boards.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Mary Brennan
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:49 AM

You are right, of course. We shouldn't let other people wind us up, even when they're doing their best to make us do just that.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:56 AM

But people can choose to ignore posts if they want. That way the thread slowly moves down the page and out of sight. Sometimes it seems on this site that as soon as you see a post from (a) you know that it will be shortly followed by a post from (b) etc etc., usually repeating the same old thing.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Zen
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:56 AM

I'm fully in favour of a spirited discussion and healthy difference of opinion but am quite fed-up with some of the mean-spirited and rude and personally-abusive posting that has occured in some threads. I have on some occasions remarked on the same in some of those threads.

I'm a member on other boards, e.g. Mandolin Cafe, which has a very strong policy on such postings. I think Mudcat has a commendably restrained policy but I think a few posters here should nevertheless try and remember that there is a big difference between saying "I disagree strongly with you because of X and Y" and "You are a complete £%€* and &?@<>%£...". The latter is extremely annoying and offputting for most of us and it is not always apparent which threads will descend into such a quagmire.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:05 AM

The only thing I recall about A Life Of Brian is that idiotic song. There is no Bright Side Of Life.
I am not a "British folky". What an appalling expression.
I come to this forum to impart information or to seek it and I do not take kindly to those whose apparent ambition is to turn it into a crazed fansite and to banish the activists and musicians for whom it is intended (though I may be wrong there about what Max's aim actually is . . . )
The reality is that the stumbling block is not a rational being with whom reasoned responses register but a dangerously delusional menace doing untold harm.
I would not accept the criticism that I am being "insulting" to reiterate this.
I am merely restating the many pleas from very well-known and respected musicians that have escalated over the past several days that this person should cease and desist.
That she brushes off such direct approaches is a clear manifestation of a complete lack of self-awareness or regard for those whom she lionises in such a distasteful fashion.
She's gone to Torquay where (it is to be hoped) someone will tie her to one of those palm trees and leave her there for seven years minimum. And that Susie Pye doesn't rescue her.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:10 AM

Oh, well! At least we had eight posts before the first insult. I suppose that is a start......

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:15 AM

Conspicuous displays of enthusiasm are a good thing, sadly they are often an affront to other people's cynicism or status and bring out the 'don't know what they're talking about' faction.
Better a bit of blind worship that blind intolerance.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

Is this thread closed? 8-)

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:17 AM

Sadly , that is the way of things ! If people did NOT Instantly respond to a possible Flame , life in here would be a lot more cheerful .

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:18 AM

blar,blar,blar=stop going on about rubbish things.
if you don;t like it hear go away.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:25 AM

Well said Vic.

Captain, I'm afraid I must beg to differ.

I've said to Joe often that I am concerned where Mudcat may be taking us.

It is excellent that Max and his team are willing to provide this wonderful resource for free, but in doing so they must take responsibility for what goes on here and it's wider impact.

If debate begins too frequently to descend into factional in-fighting, personal vendettas and bullying, it soon brings the whole scene into disrepute. Not only are people dissuaded from joining in, but it must have a negative effect on the public relations and work done by everyone who is involved in promoting, making and generally supporting folk music.

There are in fact a lot of people around who believe that the time has now come where we'd actually be better off without Mudcat. I don't agree, but there are times...

I certainly think membership should be compulsory, as it is on almost every other board (as I've said, I won't join on principle until it is) and real names should be the norm.

It bothers me enormously that some movers and shakers in the folk world (some of whom have power to hire and fire) post here under aliases - even if their identities are known to regular users - and some even get involved in the unpleasantness. This is, at the very least irresponsible.

I also believe that all moderators should be identified, as Joe is - and that there should be more of them - specially some from the UK who understand the specific issues over here.

I warning shot from a mod with the power to ban members, delete posts and close threads works wonders on other boards. It may run counter to the Mudcat philosophy, but there are good reasons why we have police forces, and why they wear a distinctive uniform.

I know that the team will not accept posts about moderation policy but I'll continue to make my point here in public as well as to them in private, because I think this is how a lot of people feel. In fact I know it is how a lot of people feel.

Transparency works both ways - you can see in and out.

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:30 AM

eight posts before the first insult

Insults to somebody's fave silly film don't count.
What I was attempting to imply (in a resonably polite way) is that it is insulting behaviour to flap around like a Sidmouth seagull and crap all over the forum.
I believe that most would infinitely prefer it to be otherwise, which is why so many have said so here on the forum.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:35 AM

More here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: GUEST,charlotte the oast ouse opper
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:37 AM

poor sidmouth seagull..... :0) xx

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:51 AM

Speaking only for myself, I do hope Mudcat will continue.

I have learned a great deal from it ; I have met up - reconnected, if you will - with people who were important to me in the 1960s and 1970s, and I have made at least four new friends, even if I never meet

these people face to face. (You know who you are !).

Incidentally, Diane's description of the Trolless was not an insult, but a plain statement of fact. The said Trolless has been barred out of not a few sites.

I am not feared to post under my own name. A good few other 'Catters do so as well.

I do not at this stage go as far as saying that posting under your own name should be mandatory, but . . .

. . . makes you think, though, don't it ?

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:51 AM

What are the rest of us missing?

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:52 AM

In 2006 I started this thread thread.cfm?threadid=88950 to explore what could be appropriate ways for Mudcatters to publicly respond to racist posts.

Here's an excerpt of my first post to that thread:

Subject: BS: Responses To Racism
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:34 PM

...I had decided to leave Mudcat because I felt that I was blindsided by what was -in my opinion- a particularly offensive post by a Mudcat member. The thread's title appeared to be one that had nothing to do with race or racism. The offensive post was the thread's first comment. After that first comment, most posters on that thread ignored the offensive comment and talked about issues related to that thread's subject. However, at least one member commented about the racist comment before I posted my comment.
After I wrote my comment, several other persons posted comments that also spoke out about that first comment.

In hindsight, I believe that if I had not had a particularly traumatic day at work, I may not have reacted as I did to that post. But my work is often traumatic, so perhaps that is not the reason.

I just think that I had one of those moments when it all became too much. As I said in my post that was deleted along with the rest of that thread, what bothered me more than the racist comment was the fact that most people ignored it. [btw, there was absolutely no allusions-that post was openly racist]

Ignoring racist and otherwise offensive posts may be the perferred strategy for Mudcat forum's members. I admit that this is the tactic that I usually use. Most of the times, I don't even open a BNP thread, or other such threads. But I'm wondering now if the practice [policy?] of ignoring such post might not send a message that Mudcat doesn't mind racism.

Furthermore, deleting the responses to that racist posts may mean that teaching & sharing moments were lost. But since the offensive post was the first one in the thread, would my comment and others speaking out against it make sense if only the first comment and not the entire thread been deleted? Should the first post been deleted and the thread declared closed? That is not my call to make.

But I wonder what folks here think should be the appropriate response when I and others are confronted with racist and offensive remarks.

If we email Joe and ask that the thread be deleted or closed, then if we feel the need or the desire to share our feelings about this experience in the public forum, where should we do that? Maybe some people might think that sharing a personal response to racism shouldn't be done at all on this public forum. However, I disagree.

That's the main reason why I'm back. I feel the need to talk to 'Catters about my response {reaction?}to that offensive post and the lack of comments in the thread about that post. I should say that a number of members have PMed me to say that had they seen that post, they would have responded on that thread. I thanked them privately and I want to thank them publicly.

And perhaps I should say what should go without saying-I have talked to people in the real world outside of Mudcat, about this experience. But I feel the need to know what 'Catters think about this. Should people ignore offensive posts? If so, what about the feelings those posts cause? I think that ignoring them would be unhealthy. And what about sharing feelings and insight about these types of experiences with the community at large? Isn't there some value to that?

I guess I could have stayed gone. But I like it here. And as some of you have said in your PMs to me, the racist poster would win if I decided to leave because of him.

So here I am. ...

**

To quote a portion of another post that I wrote to that thread:

"It was not the lack of involvement of lurkers that bothered me [for how would anyone know who's lurking]. What bothered me {and "bothered" is a mild word for my what I felt} was the fact that so many people who posted on that thread chose to ignore the offensive post and instead focused on other facets of what was given as the thread's topic.

This may have been their way of registering their distaste for the offensive post, but as I have said, I had {have} problems with that approach".

**

More than three years later I believe that people who were posting on that thread-who continued posting as though that offensive, clearly racist "joke" wasn't there- may have been adhering to the Mudcat policy to ignore such posts until a moderator deletes them. But I still remember how I felt blindsided when I read that post and it still bothers me that people continued chatting as though that post wasn't there.

And what message does ignoring such a posts give to people who may have happened upon that now deleted discussion thread (which was about Hurricane Katrina) from Internet search engines? It's possible that if Mudcatters (besides me) had posted a statement which echoes what is written in Mudcat's FAQs-something like "Mudcat don't tolerate or approve of racist jokes and racist insults" the Mudcat member who wrote that insult would have 1., learned not to post such insults and 2. any People of Color reading that message would have been more inclined to participate on this discussion forum.
Yes posting such statements could have resulted in that poster adding more filth, but still I'm not convinced that ignoring those kinds of messages and their subsequent and usually rapid deletion is the only appropriate answer.

[I recall that one other person wrote something like "That was uncalled for". But I either cross-posted with that poster or s/he posted shortly after I did. The entire thread was quickly deleted-In hindsight I don't think it should have been. I think the my comment and the other Mudcatter's* comment should have remained on that thread as well as the other comments about that thread's topic that preceded those comments and were posted after our comments. In that way, that thread could have been a learning experience about how this community responses to racism.

* I was so "outdone" by that racist joke that I can't recall who wrote that comment and I never thanked that person. I do so now.

Perhaps ignoring those types of posts may be the best policy, but even when those posts are quickly deleted by moderators, if they happen to be read by the person who is directly or indirectly targeted, "ignore/delete" doesn't address how the person targeted heals from such an experience. And it doesn't provide any public affirmation of this community's position about race as-for instance-the overwhelming majority of posts on the BNP: What would you do? thread does.

I share this not to reopen that thread but because I believe it adds another layer to the discussion on this thread-which I sincerely hope will not be deleted because I believe that such responsible self-examining discussions are important to the health of a discussion forum or any other community/organization.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:54 AM

I must hang out on the right threads. I haven't seen any evidence of this since the glory days of Martin Gibson. Continuing to go to threads that reek of personal insults is like slowing down to look at a car accident. Life's too good.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:55 AM

I'd miss you, and your sensitive and perceptive posts, Azizi.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:59 AM

I agree Jerry. People will continue to find what they seek out....

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM

I'd miss you, too, Azizi--but I still don't know what people are talking about here--

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM

Glueman: "and bring out the 'don't know what they're talking about' faction."

I sure as hell don't know what Lizzie is on about most of the time. Though her unabashed style is brilliant and hysterical - she gets my respect for making otherwise very smart people on-list dance about like a bunch of jerking puppets if nothing else.. She expresses very strong and contentious opinions about things, which are in direct contrast to my own experiences. And so I find some of her damning judgements to be harsh and unfair - and indeed somewhat sad. As there seems there is no need for all this.

Though truthfully, I find myself far more dismayed, by the reaction her posts provoke amongst people who should be wise enough to let her have her OTT colourful (if indeed inflammatory at times) opinions and leave it at that. I really can't see it being any good or help to the music which I think can only suffer from the bad press that smart people reacting to her, ironically then generate for themselves.

Anyway Lizzie, you know what you need to do to *really, really* annoy people... Like I said earlier, abandon those faint-hearted folk stars and get on board the trad. music bus... ;-D

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

Ps. I appreciate that the thread is about a broader issue - so I think I was possibly not appreciarting that when respondinding, though the threads mentioned that were closed were by Lizzie - and G's post seemed to specifically be responding to incidents occurring on those.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Banjiman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:34 AM

What CS says above.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:46 AM

Crow Sister I can't presume what's going on in other people's lives or their heads, least of all Lizzie but she isn't top predator on the food chain and nothing will convince me she has deserves the crap she gets. A bit more tolerance all round would be nice.

I'm old and ugly enough to defend myself, not everyone is.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM

I like the fact that Mudcat has a healthily anarchic streak in the truest sense of the word in that the founder and moderators police the site with the lightest of touches and hand us back - as contributors - the responsibilty for our own conduct. I think that rather than asking for bigger chains we should rise to the challenge so graciously set for us. It's sometimes difficult - and I have got involved in a few scraps and kerfuffles myself - but no-one makes us type a response. We each individually chose to do that. Me, I've largely, but not completely yet learned to walk away.

Can I also take this opportunity to doff my virtual cap to anyone who believes I may have insulted or abuse them on Mudcat in the past? Except possibly Ray laMontagne if he ever reads this?

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:56 AM

The tank top may be classed as offensive but who the hell is Ray laMontagne?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:05 AM

"She's gone to Torquay where (it is to be hoped) someone will tie her to one of those palm trees and leave her there for seven years minimum. And that Susie Pye doesn't rescue her."

What a nice friendly lady you are. Do they run "being friendly" courses in London N 11 - do they dearie??

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:06 AM

This sounds like something from Monty Python:

I come to this forum to impart information or to seek it and I do not take kindly to those whose apparent ambition is to turn it into a crazed fansite and to banish the activists and musicians for whom it is intended (though I may be wrong there about what Max's aim actually is . . . )

STAND ASIDE EVERYONE. MS EASBY HAS ENTERED THE BUILDING.

Or not.

SRS

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

I'm with Spleen.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

"as contributors - the responsibilty for our own conduct. I think that rather than asking for bigger chains we should rise to the challenge so graciously set for us."

Yeppers.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM

"She's gone to Torquay where (it is to be hoped) someone will tie her to one of those palm trees and leave her there for seven years.
minimum. And that Susie Pye doesn't rescue her."
None of the usual suspects are cabalbe of stopping their insulting, and this is a continuation regardless of what Diane Easby may say, again and again and again and......

As I've said before and had hoped never to say again, they're opposite sides of the same coin.

IT'S TIME TO STOP IT, NOW!!

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:20 AM

More overt moderation all too frequently turns into a requirement that posters toe the official site line, resulting in the sad states (when I last saw them, which was long ago) of things like the Radio 2 board and the fRoots board.

The line is hard to draw. There was an unnecessary reactiveness about LC's Krusby and EC video threads - they may have been old hat but they were helpful (even if, to make an assumption, their primary purpose was for LC to draw attention to herself - maybe it was and maybe it wasn't). There was thread drift on one (not itself an offence) but LC's rant (on her fundamentally malign "Peasants and Professors" thread) about the focus on the Lloyd issue was not only ill-conceived, but merited firm response.

Assuming that the Guest EC ("You're a moron") post was not in fact EC (and with hindsight the more about it the more I think that that must be so, which makes me worry about the one about barring from DEAFASS) then that was a nasty bit of name calling and bullying - and even if it was real it was gratuitous vulgar abuse that could well have been modded.

DE can come across as spiteful, and should know better, but having said that, the vast bulk of the opproprium heaped upon LC in the cited threads was directly and indeed rationally responsive to LC's strange outpourings. I was more worried by the bunny-boiler character of LC's unreality, and if I were Phil Beer I would have been quite worried by LC's continuation in stalker mode thereafter.

So while it is probably better that the threads are shut, and the site can be a little calmer, I am inclined to the view that characterising the responses to LC's eccentricities as "bullying" is to take rather too simple a view of the situation.

However, assuming that Gg's attempts to come to the aid of LC were genuine, rather than the deliberate pouring of petrol on the flames, in my view they were plainly counterproductive. Having regard to the sophistication with which Gg expresses himself I suspect him of unhelpful intent (indeed almost every time he posts). Maybe when he has seen more of LC's gushings he will modify his views - if he is not malintentioned.

These things are hardly ever as simple as they might at first appear to be.   It does take considerable self-restraint not to refer to LC as "Mad Lizzie", but we should try. She is, however, most provoking, and would try the patience of a saint. We are not saints.   

To summarise - I am not convinced.

Subject: RE: The Closing of 2 Threads on Mudcat
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:22 AM

yes, but abusive guests,need to be dealt with.
guest, Ralphie persistently attacks a member.