Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:15 PM

"An Irish lady wanted to know by what right I, an Englishman, was singing 'Rebel songs'."

What was your answer to her question?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Scorpio
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:05 PM

I was playing Arthur Mcbride in a pub in Copenhagen. An Irish lady wanted to know by what right I, an Englishman, was singing 'Rebel songs'.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:43 PM

Re. hearing the song beginning "See who comes over the red-blossomed heather", and including the line "out and make way...", I heard this sung at the Fleadh Cheoil of 2005 in Leitir Ceanainn. I'm pretty sure the singer was female.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:08 AM

Big Tim, thanks for giving the date for Kearney's song.
Where did you find it?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM

Big Tim

Is that the "See who comes over the red-blossomed heather" song of which you speak? Don't remember hearing it since the days of the Walton's programme.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:42 AM

Correction, The Bold Fenian Men was first published in 1864, in a newspaper in Chicago, where the author Michael Scanlan was then living. It first appeared in book form in Scanlan's poetry collection 'Love and Land' in 1866. It was then titled simply 'The Fenian Men' - tho each verse ended with the line 'the bold Fenian men'!

'Love and Land' included this verse which I have never heard sung, quite possibly because it's never been recorded.

Up for the cause then, fling forth our green banners,
From the east to the west, from the south to the north,
Irish land, Irish men, Irish mirth, Irish manners,
From mansion and cot, let the slogan go forth.
Sons of old Ireland now,
Love you your sireland now?
Come from the kirk, or the chapel or glen,
Down with all faction old,
Concert and action bold,
This is the creed of the bold Fenian men.

Scanlan was a senior Fenian and took part in the Fenian 'raid' on Canada, from Buffalo, in 1866. For more detail on Scanlon, see the book 'From the Bog to the Bishop' by Dr. Margaret Doody-Scully (2005) which includes a chapter on Scanlan by myself titled 'Limerick is Beautiful', the title of another of Scanlan's great songs (he was a native of of Mathúnach,(Mahoonagh, Castlemahon) County Limerick.

The 'other' so-called 'Bold Fenian Men', by Peadar Kearney (1907) is properly titled 'Down by the Glenside'. Kearney was well aware of Scanlan's song and wouldn't have given his own song the same title. He wrote, of a visit to London by the Abbey Theatre, of which he was a member,

'I think it was Humphrey Murphy (a big man with a bigger voice) started singing Scanlon's [sic] 'Fenian men' and when we all joined in at 'Out and make way for the Bold Fenian Men' we actually hushed the surprised mob into momentary silence, the only remark I heard was 'Oirish! Co blimey - barmy'!

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 04:43 AM

I would imagine a prerequisit to commenting on "Irish rebel songs" would be to at least have a working knowledge of the history of Ireland, tough though it may be to plough through it.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 08:48 PM

Depends which song and when. I recall reviewing a record in the 80s, height of the last lot of 'Troubles' [I think it was by Frank Harte], and remarking that it was perhaps not the best of times to be singing songs rejoicing at "all the dead khaki soldiers in Erin-go-Bragh", which might just put a fair number of people [e.g. the wives of such soldiers] off what was, all-in-all, a beautifully performed collection of fine songs. I would stand by that to this day; and don't think I was going outside legitimate criticism, or suggesting any sort of censorship [except perhaps some intelligent self-censorship] in saying so.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:51 PM

in reply to the OP,I am very happy for anyone to sing them,and have on occasions sung them myself.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:06 PM

Martin,

The Bold Fenian Men (not Down by the Glenside) was published in 1866, the Fenian 'revolt' was in 1867: hardly long after the event!

For me, the rebel (and loyalist songs) are very much social documents. I have never managed to read 'a history of Ireland' from cover to cover but I have learned a helluva lot of history by following up, as objectively as I can, the subjects of the songs.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:43 AM

Two short additions: first, there's a reference to "Skibbereen" in the introduction to Hughes, "Irish Country Songs" (1909), so that's the first decade of the 20th century (with the likelihoood that the song itself is a bit older than that). Secondly, in O'Sullivan's "Songs of the Irish" there's a good deal of historical information on both "Eamonn a chnuic" and "Roisin Dubh", together with some other "Patriotic Songs" including "The Races of Ballyhooley". I think O'Sullivan makes some suggestions, with regard to the last of these, that humorously/satirically naming an ignominious retreat/rout a "race" became commonplace or traditional, as in "The Races of Castlebar" in 1798.

I see these two additions have become three. Incidentally, with regard to songs written long after the events, while one version of "The Croppy Boy" is certainly nineteenth-century ("Good men and true..."), isn't the other ("It was early, early in the Spring...") generally regarded as coeval with the events?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 09:26 AM

Fiolar/T.Mooney

I agree completely with the underlying argument that there is a vast wealth of Irish songs, in Irish, English and occasionally both-at-once, which, directly or indirectly act as social documents or provide an insight into the times from which they came or to which they refer. My sole point in the context of this thread is that "rebel songs" - however defined - are a particular subset of Irish songs whose social comment has to be approached with an awareness of the political baggage they often carry - as well as of the history that begat them.

Nothing uniquely Irish about that, of course but given the international spread of Irish music and song and the world's familiarity with thirty recent years of Northern Ireland "troubles", we tend to bump into it more often, perhaps, than similar situations in other folk traditions.

Regards

p.s. GUEST,T.Mooney Why not sign up to Mudcat and hang around here a while? No charge, no spam, not more abuse than anywhere else ...!

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Fiolar
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 08:30 AM

There was the classic "code" song, "An Raibh Ag An gCarraig?" ("Were You At The Rock?")which dealt with the times that the Penal Laws were in force. "The Rock" related to the rock on which the Mass was said. In those times there was something like £30 for the head of a priest. Quite a lot of history associated with those rocks.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,T.Mooney
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 06:12 AM

Yes Martin , but weren't many of such songs allegorical in a way, like "Dark Rosaleen"?
There would have been an "alternative" forum of political comment going on also surely. Such would, of necessity, have had to be "disguised" in some way, in most cases, to protect those involved? There is still a, mostly rural, tradition in Ireland of composing narrative songs and poems (most of them in a doggerel form unfortunately. I find it difficult to think that this is a "newer" development given the Irish delight in "Searabhus" (Hope I've spelled it correctly ?) going back into the cultural past ?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 12:28 PM

GUESTTMooney

Can't say I remember macaronic songs or poems where the sentiments expressed alternate with the language. The definitive book on them is Diarmuid O'Muirithe's An tAmhrán Macrónach. I'll have a look through it later.

On the question of the "bards", composing in Irish: remember that the modern perception of Ireland as a nation-state is just that - modern, basically post French revolution. (I know that's a simplification, but it's a reasonable starting point). English was the language of politics through the 19C., there was a strong English-literary tradition involved in the development of political song in Ireland (The Nation etc.) - and the broadside tradition was essentially in English also, of course. Historically, the tradition of song in Irish was generally lyrical rather than narrative or, indeed, directly political. Political songs that made the transfer to English might include Sliabh na mBan, I suppose (one of my favourites). Other than that, there were things like Mangans translation of Róisín Dubh.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,T.Mooney
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM

Yes Hi Martin Ryan, I suppose it is taking a very broad view to call any song that encouraged people to think of Ireland as a country and people who should be free of domination by a stronger neighbour but such are often included in the "Rebel Songs" catalogues.
As "Fiolar" suggested I believe that there must have been many, many "rebel" songs composed by the old travelling Bards that were never translated much less written down, which were also comments on the times in which they were written. This was how they made a living I understand. Many , perhaps most, have probably been long forgotten.
I am not a collector of old songs much less a scholar but I have memories of learning several "poems" in my schooldays that had alternate verses in English and Irish that also professed alternating sentiments towards the rulers of the times in which they were written. Have you come across any of these ?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:51 PM

Why sing the songs and forget about the aim?
He wrote them for a reason. Why not sing them for the same?



---

Because your reason might not be his/her reason. Because you might like the "sound it makes" as someone said. That is my basic interest in the music frankly. Because you might be on emotional overload and can't really get into one more miner with lung disease but you can still sing the song for someone else. Because you might not know the history or even make sense of the song but if you like it sing it and again someone you sing it to might know more and not have heard it otherwise.

There are as many reasons for singing a song as there are people singing them. As long as they are not used to abuse people, what business is it of anyone else's, or why do they feel the need to socially coerce people to get on board a particular train. mg

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:23 PM

Hi GuestTMOONEY

There are obviously differences of opinion as to what constitutes a "rebel song" in the Irish tradition. Even with a pretty broad interpretation, however, I can think of only a handful which are translations from Gaelic originals - The Connerys/Na Conarigh is one that comes to mind. Have to say I've never thought of Eamonn an Cnoic/Ned of the Hill as a "rebel song". Which songs did you have in mind?

Your mention of "dual language" songs is a bit confusing, also. "False praise" songs are common enough in both languages - not particularly in macaronics, in my experience.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,T.Mooney
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:59 PM

Fiolar, you are on the right track. Rebel Songs (as others refer to them) were composed in Irish also but, for this very reason , were either not written down or were written in a translated form in later times. They may very well be heard as a comment on the time contemporary to their composition.
There is another factor too to be considered. Irish Composers ( certainly those using the English language ) may have feared to commit themselves to a written word at the time of the events being commented upon (in song or poem)
There are also those "dual language" songs to be considered. These were composed in such a manner as to mock the subject while appearing to praise and honour it. Would not some of those have been "social comments" ?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 08:56 AM

Many songs were written anonymously and more than likely in Irish. There is a long history of the oral tradition in Ireland and especially if you were a travelling bard very few of your songs were likely to make it into print. Many of the ones people are familiar with today were written by well known figures in English.
Just to mention one or two others; "Ned of the Hill" (In Irish "Eamonn an Chnuic") is attributed to Samuel Lover (1797 - 1868) and deals with Edmund Ryan (1670 - 1724). "Rory Of the Hill" by Charles J. Kickham (1828 - 1882) refers to Rory O'Moore (1620 - 1655). An interesting item relates to a song called "Come To The Bower" which was allegedly played by Sam Houston's men at the Battle of San Jacinto in 1836.
I was surprised to learn that there are two statues of Robert Emmett in the US. One is in Embassy Row, Washington DC and the second one is in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.
Admittedly most of the rebel songs composed in the 20th century relate to the War of Independence and to later events mainly in Northern Ireland.
To conclude, every country has its songs dealing with its history and to ignore them would be a sad loss. For example Jesse James is remembered beautifully in the ballad "Jesse James"; "Sam Hall" deals with the execution in 1701 of Jack Hall, a chimney sweep. "The Bonny Earl of Murray" remembers the murder in 1592 of the Earl of Murray probably at the instigation of King James VI. "Casabianca" is a reference to the Battle of the Nile in 1798.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:40 AM

Yeah - both of those were written by R D Joyce, IIRC. Fairly standard late 19C. romantic perspective.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:32 AM

I should withdraw that claim. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:29 AM

Just "The Wind That shakes The Barley" and "Blacksmith of Limerick".

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:11 AM

Keith

Which? Offhand, I can't recall the origins of Shall my soul.. - and Skibbereen is debatable - but the rest were surely written on this side of the pond?

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:04 AM

Martin, some of Fiolar's songs are out of that stable.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:37 AM

Keith

Still too busy to tackle the general point - but let me pick one nit, if I may!

With the possible exception of "Will you come to the bower?", I can't think offhand of any song of American origin that would fit into the class "Irish Rebel Songs" as I would think of it. While there were lots of sentimental Oirish songs produced in the 19th and early 20th C., few of them are overtly or even covertly political. I suspect that to regard anything that, directly or indirectly, comments on British rule in Ireland as an "Irish Rebel Song" is not going to be helpful!

Regards

p.s. Skiberreen is an interesting one alright - whatever its origins. The alternative endings of "Remember Skibbereen" and "Revenge for Skiberreen!" can have very different impacts!

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:30 AM

plethora!

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:30 AM

Paul, thanks for clarifying my point, but I am going to take issue with your analogy.
Every country does have its plethory of patriotic songs, but if such songs had influenced Britain in 1914, we would have joined Germany to fight the French!
Remeber too that Irishmen enlisted with as much enthusiasm as Englishmen.

I am saying that the rebel songs have helped to create a false history of an oppressed Irish people united in hatred of an English oppressor, and that these encouraged impressionable young men to believe that they were joining a centuries old crusade that never really existed.

I am also suggesting that these songs began appear in the latter half of 19thC, predominantly in USA, where they were produced by professionals writing for misty eyed descendants of immigrants, and did not become popular in Ireland before the rising.

(How am I doing Martin?)

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 05:13 PM

Keith has a point that romantic attitudes and pseudo- history bear A responsibility, as he said (not THE), for the conflicts of the late 60s to recently- but it's surely far from the only one, and certainly not unique to Ireland, and there certainly not confined to one side. In the same way, Kipling bears A responsibility for the First World War, and Francis Scott Key A responsibility for McCarthyism.

If we have to get our facts right before singing any song, we'll have precious few to sing and pretty dull they'll be. That's leaving aside the question of "facts" in history. And if we have to wait till a conflict is over and forgotten before we can sing about it, Ireland will have to shut up, yea even unto the 12th century...

The starting point of the thread was song (specifically "rebel" songs) as a social document. A song can document times other than the one it purports to depict. See the wonderful WAV's thread about his imagined village. All peoples use their history as a way to comment on the present, and given Ireland's rather turbulent past, it's not surprising that there's an element of projection of past wrongs into the present. As the Irish monk said to Gerald of Wales, who accompanied King Henry II's invasion of Ireland, and ragged the Irishman for their church's lack of martyrs, now that the English have come, we'll have plenty of those.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

"She is far from the land" is an interesting one in that it shows that is perfectly possible to be contemporaneous with a historical event - and still be hopelessly romantic!

I'll come back to the more general point when I have time.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 09:38 AM

Thanks Fiolar, but you promised songs written "years and years before 20thCentury"
That just leaves Henry Joy, date unknown.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 08:55 AM

Keith: I know exactly what they are. Many of them tell of the real events in Irish history. For example: "Henry Joy" about Henry Joy McCraken (1767 - 1798) who was a United Irishman of Hugenot descent and who was executed on July 17th 1798. "The Boys of Kilmichael" about the Kilmichael ambush and as a matter of interest, I personally knew many of the "boys" who took part in it and went to school with their children. "Kevin Barry" (1902 - 1920). "Upton Ambush"; "Boulavogue" which deals with Father John Murphy (c1753 - 1798); "Kelly, the Boy from Killane"; "Shall My Soul Pass Through Old Ireland" about Terence MacSwiney (1879 - 1920): "The Bold Robert Emmett" (1778 - 1803).
Funny enough Thomas Moore wrote a song about Robert Emmett's fiance, Sarah Curran who died in 1808. It is called "She Is Far From The Land".

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 06:05 AM

OK Martin.
Is it fair to say that you are challenging me on the degree but not the principal?
The phrase "illusion of truth" was yours.
keith.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM

Way over the top, Keith! Bear in mind the distinction between "causation" and "correlation", please. Your use of "falsely historical" as a synonym for "romanticised" is also tendentionus.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 04:07 AM

When I posted about falsely historical rebel songs, their pernicious influence was immediately demonstrated by Fiolar.
He offered 4 examples of songs not in that category, and every one was.
The songs he has always known and loved were not what he thought them to be.
He said he had many more examples, but none offered yet.

For me the enjoyment of these songs is tainted by the knowledge that they bear a responsibity for the human and economic catastrophe of the last 40 years.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 03:51 AM

After some thought, I wish to change my position on Skibbereen.
It is the song of a man who was too young when he left to have any memory of Ireland.
A man who grew up in USA with only the possibly romanticised reminiscences of older family members, and steeped and imbued with the emotive and romantic, but false history promulgated by songs and verses churned out by professional writers like Robert Dwyer Joyce.
As a social history it does offer an insight, but an insight into the history of second and third generation immigrants in USA.
Its dangerous message is that it would be a good thing to go and do some killing of new generations as a response to the plight of previous generations.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

The advice about knowing your audience is sound .The thing is about these songs is that ,if they are good ,and if you sing them well , your audience will forgive you if they are music lovers and not attending a performance solely for political reasons.
There is often a lot of demagoguery mixed up with the singing of rebel songs - especially when drink is involved . I'm sure that would be the same in Orange circles. Performers have to learn to distinguish between whether audiences are appreciating songs for their political content or for their artistic merits . It can be both .
You should feel free to leave out offensive verses. I recall reading with horror the unexpugated words of the Irish(?)American song ,The Days of 49 , with all its racist verses . The song without those verses had always been one of my favourites. It's not so good nowadays as a social record of the prevailing racist attitudes in 19th century America because it's always sung with those verses ommitted , but it is better as a song .

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Marje
Date: 29 Jun 09 - 06:24 AM

The difference between a song about the Battle of New Orleans and a 1970s Irish song is about 150 years - in other words, the difference between something that's now history, and something that's in living memory. When there are people alive who have suffered personally, or lost friends or family in the 20th-century Irish troubles, it's wise to be sensitive to this when choosing your song.

And yes, there was a time when you could sing rebel Irish songs even in very Protestant parts of the North of Ireland. I'm thinking of the early 1960s (I know because I lived there then), in the lull between the IRA action of the 1950s and the violence that marked the start of the more recent "Troubles". It was quite cool then to support the Republican cause and the civil rights marchers. But once the violence began in the late 60s, you had to be more careful what you sang and where. And (as implied above) it may be OK for an Irishman to sing a certain song but less so for an Englishman to do so - it's a bit like telling a joke against your own nation, I suppose, in that it's less acceptable coming from a (relative) outsider.

Marje

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:47 PM

Keith

No argument about the alarm clock, of course! It's just that "clockmaker" seems closer to "clockwinder " than anything else. Localised Dublin versions of THIS ONE were very popular at one stage. I wondered if that's what Crow Sister had in mind.

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 06:19 PM

1998 thread about Ould Alarm Clock.
Early contributor, MartinRyan.
thread.cfm?threadid=6774&messages=9

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:18 PM

You may be thinking of "clockwinder" - different associations!

Regards

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 05:12 PM

Keith A: "I have a Dubliners LP of that time with My Ould Alarm Clock, about planting bombs in London."

Interesting.
I have vague recollections of a song about 'the clockmaker', though I'm guessing the associations were the same?
Fully naive at the time, of the possible implications of course. Wish I could remember more.

Any more songs of that ilk?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM

When very much younger, I sang the Men from South Armagh, a 1970s song, in a bar on Cape Clear. A bloke from Dublin was very upset; some local youths highly impressed to hear an Englishman singing a rebel song. Cape is a hell of a long way from Warrenpoint. I certainly wouldn't do it now.

But if that song is to be deprecated, why is the Battle of New Orleans acceptable?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:45 PM

I remember them singing it at the Royal Albert Hall in about 1968/69?

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

I have a Dubliners LP of that time with My Ould Alarm Clock, about planting bombs in London.
It was just an amusing song then.
No sinister overtones.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 01:54 PM

I remember in the 60's Hallmark (sold in Woolworths) had an albulm called "Songs of the Irish rebellion". It sold quite well I believe and I still have my copy. It had the Tricolour on the front. This was before the mainland bombings etc. Nobody seemed to mind the songs being sung then.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 11:08 AM

quote:
"Yet, there does appear to be some (perhaps understandable or perhaps not?) political sensitivity in the UK about such songs,"

That applies to Ireland as well, Crow Sister. Rebel songs went out of favour during the events in the North from 69 onwards. There appears to have been a bit of a revival since the peace process mostly amoung a younger age group who weren't about when the Provos were engaged in what they and their supporters euphemistically refer to as the "armed struggle".

A few rebel songs are often included in the repertoire of the one man ballad bands who put on entertainment for the tourists and visitors are thereby often misled as to the popularity of the particular genre of Irish songs.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:16 AM

I also tend to be one who doesn't really listen to words too much...

I'm with Phil Ochs on this one:

Why sing the songs and forget about the aim?
He wrote them for a reason. Why not sing them for the same?

If you just want background noise, there's MuZak.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 09:53 AM

As Kearney's songs were written in 20thC after the rising, it would be very misguided to see them as a social history of earlier centuries.

Subject: RE: Irish Rebel Songs as Social Document?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 09:17 AM

The author of Skibbereen is not known.
Obviously it was inspired by the famine.
Lack of early references does not prove it a later song, but that is the most likely explanation.
The other two songs you mention were both written by the same person in the second half of 19thCentury. He was an an emigrant in USA known for his writing of emotive patriotic songs for the Irish community there.