Lyr Req: My Little Armalite

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: gargoyle
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 12:44 AM

jon....well said...THANX

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 02:10 PM

jO_77,

Great post!! You have given me much food for thought. I will respond later after I have had time to mull it through. I have some problems with parts of your conclusions, but in the main this is, IMHO, an excellent description of the complexities faced in bringin peace and justice to the North, and the Isles as a whole. Thanks for giving me something to ponder.

Mick

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 04:12 PM

BLOWING IN THE WIND
(Bob Dylan)

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky
How many years must one man have
Before he can hear people cry
How many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind

ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: jon a
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 05:46 PM

Big Mick, glad to have made a thought provoking start to my association with the Mudcat Cafe, yesterday was my first visit. I've joined now and will be back when I can cheers to all

jon a

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 08:09 PM

I have spent today at the Tollpuddle Martyrs Rally and despite that, I find myself in the very unusual position of feeling compelled to spring to the defence to a member of the Conservative Party? It must be the heat?

Of course there were and are sound economic reasons for all governments to find a peaceful settlement in Northern Ireland.

I do feel however that Mr Major is basically a decent human being, though why he joined the Tories and they accepted him is still a bit of a mystery? With such friends as he had in that Party, he did not need enemies.

Unlike Mrs Thatcher, who repeatedly told the rest of the world how they should sort out their problems, he could see the folly of doing that whilst ignoring the mess on his own doorstep.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: GOD
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 12:12 PM

DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!!!!!

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 12:25 PM

by all means, come on down..I have a few questions...

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 12:55 PM

as seen on a billboard in which state? Just read an editorial about God not being a scenery polluter, but his followers seem to be; they've planned similiar billboards in 40 some states.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 01:54 PM

Yet another long Fadac ramble.

EJ, well I was trying not to "take sides" in the N. I. troubles. I was expressing my opinion of a paticular wepon. As far as I'm concerned all the M16's should be pounded into fence posts. And I like guns! I love to hunt the wiley empty tin can, with a mighty 22.

However, conflict of this sort is very human. To sing songs about it, even more so.

I was reminded of a story that my father told me. It seems that there was a company of British solders were marching through New Zeland. When they were abushed by the locals. Big fight, bullets everywhere, blood teath and eyeballs all over the place. When the Britsh put up a white flag. The Chief came down and asked, "Why you no fight?"

"We are out of amunition, and must surender." Replied the surving British officer.

"uh, want to borrow some?" offered the foe.

These guys just liked to fight. Now apply this thinking to Bosnia, Irac, and perhaps N.I.

Some people just like to fight. Waving flowers and pictures of Barny the Dinasor, won't change their minds. It would just give them something to shoot at. So I give up trying to change the world. The world dosn't give a possoms bottom what I think. So, in song, I can protest. If you have never been shot at...Well, congrats to you. But having been a moving target (and a good one to duck.) I just might sing a bit louder.

I noticed that nobody protested my Napalm comment. There are "troubles" all over the world. If you let them, they will poison your heart. Mostly because there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. I hope that when one comes to the old USA, they leave the old hatreds behind. Dosn't happen all the time, but mostly it works.

Here it is fun to see a bagpipe band with, black pipers, asain pipers, lady pipers, kid pipers, all happly blowing a squeezing on a once banned instrument.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. I'm just a bit of a cynic when it comes to the "We save the XXXX crowd". Life is, live it.

-Fadac

-Ramble mode off. Time for jello!

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: LEJ
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:05 PM

fadac... you and I disagree on some issues regarding firearms, but that wasn't the point of my comment. I just got a laugh out of you and ferret having this totally separate conversation on the tech merits of the m-16 while the controversy raged around you. Kind of like a little island in the eye of the storm.

LEJ

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:24 PM

LEJ,

Your opinion on firearms dosn't bother me. I'll defend to the death your right to disagree.

To hear a song about a firearm, dosn't surprise me at all.

War and conflict seem to bring out all sorts of song. Just check out the database on war.

Sex and conflict seem to be what about 80% of the music is about, perhaps more.

You did notice that neither ferret or I like the damn thing.

I wish the "troubles" could be resolved with a polka contest. (sigh)

-Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: LEJ
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:38 PM

Or with rational discussion and reasonable compromises, my friend.

LEJ

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:46 PM

I had a dream......Not a Polka contest but.....

A Bumbling Englishman

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: SeanM
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 05:08 PM

Ferret...

Thanks for reminding me about the Maori... It's definitely a case for the sociologists out there to scratch their heads over.

It actually is true. The Maori are documented as fighting simply because they liked to. They would stop battles rather than destroy the other side, so that they'd have someone to fight later. They'd also exchange weaponry so as to have a 'fair' fight...

Makes one think about the base joys of humanity...

M

Subject: a link
From: Philippa
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 05:14 PM

for GOD and Bill D: Tomás an Buile

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 05:41 PM

SeanM I brought up the Maori, simply to point out that, some are going to fight anyway. Look at the Iran Irac war. 8 years and the border didn't move an inch. They were not fighting for land, so what's left? Fun I guess.

Look at Bosnia. About 70 some years ago, WWI started there. Then after WWII the Russians put their foot down, and they had a generation of peace. Then the Soviet empire falls apart. So the neighbors in Bosnia are in the streets whomping on their one time friends and nighbors. Now we have to be the policemen to keep the lid on.

I don't know how to change this, I don't think anyone does. Just saying "Stop" dosn't work.

What does this have to do with Northern Ireland? Nothing, everything. If I was relgious I'd pray that those folks can learn to get along. Do I think it will hold. No sorry I don't. Any more than I belive that the United Europe thing will work. I give it about ten years...

Sorry to be so pesimistic, but I think I have a bit of a handle on human nature. Such as it is...

-Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 07:35 PM

Fardc

The problem with talk (which I think is the always the best way to sort out a problem.) is that not all people seem to speak the same language. Or want to.

But they ALL speak Gun

May the God's help us all.

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 01:49 PM

My grandfather was Maori??

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Plus three
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 08:57 PM

Not Maori - Mori! He was a Poll. PT

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 12:12 AM

Ferret, Before they spoke gun, they spoke bow and arrow.
Before bow and arrow, they spoke sword and knife,
Before sword they spoke club, and before club, they spoke rock.

Before rock, nobody knew how to say anything, they just sat in the mud and rubbed it into their belly button.

Now they speak in atoms, people listen.

:o)

-Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: j0_77
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 12:29 AM

Mick - just now saw your post - it appears there is an unthinking condition, in the ould slang, 'vexed' = the brain dictionary only delivers meanings for words which make them 'insults' if from the opposition - what ever that may be - or compliments if from one's own side.

According to Hippocrates if a person is angry- 'vexed'Ireland mad US- the condition can be cured by having the patient blink !!!

Wow the Ulster problem solved by a dead Greek Philosopher/Physician - free - It works too - get really mad about something then remember to blink. I put a sign on the wall 'if VEXED BLINK' hehe

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 04:45 AM

Fadac

As a historical re-enactor of dark-age and medieval combat for some 26 years I agree with you and understand the history (if not always the sense) of warfare, weapons and conflict.

All the best

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ana
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 04:59 AM

hi Fadac - I fully realise you meant no ill-will with your Dad's story, but I do feel very saddened at the ignorance and prejudice that under-pined the birth of such stories. I'm sorry to do an education trip, but the recent background for "Maori" may be of interest. I need to say at this point, that my fascination and interest in folk music centres around its reminders of our history, and parallels in contemporary life. Apolitical it is not! The situation for indigeneous peoples has been just ghastly; Yes, the various Iwi (for the word "Maori" as a collective term barely existed before the colonists arrived - kind of like expecting all British to share the same culture/identity) did a fair bit of squabbling before the arrival or "Pakeha" - a generic term for those with white skin. Their societies would appear to have relatively harmonious however, with well defined laws that controlled behaviour. The problems experienced in Britain -potato famine, disenfranchising of lands in Scotland - had a flow on effect of inspiring people towards a "better" life in New Zealand (Aotearoa -the land of the long white cloud) In reality the social problems just continued, but in a new locality. For a time it would seem that things in NZ weren't too bad, but humankind (being the greed driven and territorial animal that history repeatedly demonstrates), took to fighting over the land, when some colonists took to stealing it. (some unscrupuless iwi also saw the advent of such weapons as a way to increase power). There was an absence of understanding from Pakeha over the spiritual attachment of Maori to land (which can be demonstrated in its name -"whenua" which is the same as for placenta) and an attitude of entitlement. In Pre-European times, the periodic fights were with stone tools; some Iwi avoided war, preferring inter-tribal marriage as a way towards conflict resolution. Post-European, the devastation (both social and in lifes) caused by ammunitions was very sad. There is a preconception that the "Maori" were savages, and yet the behaviour of Pakeha through the land wars, shows that none could afford to be self rightous. Your Dad's story unfortunately seems to perpetuate such myths.

Subject: RE: My little armadillo
From: Cher-Ann Gogh
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 11:57 AM

my little armadillo (click here)

Subject: RE: My little armadillo
From:
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 11:59 AM

or here?

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 01:46 PM

Ana,

Ana, have you ever been in the Armed Service? No, don't answer that, it's not important. I'm with you, really I am.

Huh? I understand how you feel. How ever we feel about the actions, they happend. All the hand wringing in the world won't change what happend 100 years ago, or 500 years ago. All we can do is look at the past and try not to do the same thing again. I brought up the Mori story, not to slam anyone. But to bring up the point that all people in the world don't think like we do. What would make us barf up yesterdays lunch, could be a very normal activity for someone else. (eating bugs for example)

I think this leads us to some of the problems stemed from Europen attatudes to the rest of the world. You take a 19 century English Gentleman (see rich upper class) for example. He would think that the whole world would want to be English. He would simply not understand why anyone would not want to be English. Only during and a bit after WWI did this attatude change. Now I think the English see the world in a much more reasonable light. Of course it cost an empire to see it.

So I guess we are in agreement. All civilized people don't have flowered tea pots and rose bushes. Some have killing sticks and wear a thong, if that. Who's right? I'm not qualified to answer that. I don't think anyone is.

I hope that I didn't offend any English with my example, the Dutch were about the same, as the French, etc. I used the English because my history is from that part of the world. I understand why my ancesters did what they did, I don't have to agree with it, but it happend anyway. So I just deal with it, and try to learn. 'bout all anyone can do I guess.

Egad, yet another long thingi from Fadac.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 03:56 PM

Fadac

One of the problems with understanding history is the tendency to judge it with modern values.

In the Bible Abraham went to and was prepared to sacrifice his son then faith to day child-abuse. All countries have taken what they wanted often just because they can. The U.S. with the Native American, the British in Tasmania. The roman and just about every one they new. And many, many more.

All of these were considered the right and often the moral way to go in there time. We have to learn the cause and affect of mankind's actions in the past and learn from them so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Those who live in a glasshouses should not throw stones. Do we blame the modern Germans for holocaust or the modern Jews for the death of Christ?

We have to draw a line under the past and move forward in a civilised and humane way remembering the mistakes of the past but not adding to them.

I know this is the most difficult way to go but I think this is the only way.

Sorry for rambling

All the best

Ferret