Opinions: set repetition at festivals

Subject: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 11:46 PM

Seems like I'm always asking for something here; so, I hope I give enough back over time to balance the equation, but,...

I've been given five sets at a Celtic festival and I hate to repeat sets - I just don't think it's fair to the audience. Am I being too tough on myself to insist that all my sets are different, or, can I just insist that I don't repeat any sets in one given day?

I know we've got plenty of festival players out there, so how do you handle this type of situation. I surely have enough material to cover five sets without repeating, but some of the stuff (too much, maybe) is more like pub material than festival stuff. Just thought I'd try to generate a little discussion here. Cheers,.........mwh

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:12 AM

Michael, as someone who performs at a lot of festivals, I can identify with your predicament.

I don't like to repeat sets, but if some audience members request songs that I've done previously, and if there are a lot of new faces in the crowd, I'll repeat a few.

Also if I'm promoting a new /recent CD,I'll sing a couple of songs from it at each show, and try and push the hell out of it. *G*

Feel out the audience and go for it.

Do not, under any circumstances, feel UP the audience...

Seamus

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:53 AM

My credentials for joining this discussion are exceedingly thin; I have performed at exactly one festival, at which I had two 30-minute sets.

My application to perform at the festival was based on a themed presentation, and I only found enough relevant material to run to 30 minutes - if the festival organizers had given me a longer slot, I might have been reduced to repeating songs within the set! As it was, I saw no alternative to repeating the entire set the second time. So I told the audience at the first performance that I was going to repeat it at the second one. Having done that, I didn't feel bad at all about doing the same songs on the Sunday that I had done on the Saturday, as anyone who had heard me on the Saturday knew exactly what to expect and could decide on that basis whether to come on the Sunday.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 01:54 AM

Seamus - thanks for your comment - you are indeed a master performer and your words are taken to heart. Please know that I will take pointed precautions to avoid feeling UP the audience.
Cheers,..................mwh

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 02:43 AM

Michael - another suggestion: if you have a set list, you can do the songs in a different order for each performance.

Or since you have 5 shows, alternate your fixed set with a mixed set.

What festival are you doing by the way?

Seamus

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: treewind
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:01 AM

I suppose it depends on how big your repertoire is - that is, of songs you can currently perform to festival standard.

We don't have fixed sets and try not to repeat anything too much. There'll usually be a bit of overlap between one performance and another. Also there are bound to be a few 'killer' numbers - the ones that always go down well and get requested anyway - so occasional repetition of one of those is probably better than dredging up some obscure song that you barely remember just for the sake of avoiding repetition.

Themed shows are different of course. When we did CHARM (with Craig;Morgan;Robson) the whole programme was fixed and scripted. But we never did more than one performance of that at the same festival so the question didn't arise, though if it were to happen we could probably ring the changes a bit so it wasn't identical.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: stallion
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 03:25 AM

We try to do a different set when we have repeat bookings at fc's, after our fifth return to one club and a hundred odd songs we had to repeat! Echo treewind though we nearly always finish a set on our "anthem" and we get requests, once I was aproached by seveeral people to sing the same song in return for a beer, I did and four pints appeared in front of me, that was a result!

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 05:17 AM

I have seen performers 'Do' exactly the same set twice in a short time and still get a good respnse , but only when the performer was REALLY GOOD (Diz Disley comes to mind) . Personally I try to 'ring the changes' , though there are a few numbers that do get included on a regular basis .
Being able to read an audience IS a distinct advantage

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 05:27 AM

I don't think every set has to be completely different, I can see no problem with repeating some songs/tunes, especially if they're ones you are known for performing. However to repeat entire sets would not be appropriate, imo, unless there were a specific reason such as a themed show AND it were made clear that it was a repeat performance.

Actually, at a large festival I'd quite like to have several opportunities to see a themed show - if there's only one performance it always seems to clash with something else I'd like to go to.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 05:37 AM

I'd never, ever, give the same set twice at one festival, but it's OK to repeat particular songs especially if they're requests or 'killers'. If you're doing as many as five sets you might find you build up the confidence to try out some of your less familiar material as you go along - that's certainly what I do by the end of a long festival like Whitby or Sidmouth. Though of course you wouldn't want to make your last set of the weekend a whole bunch of stuff you don't really know!

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 09:30 AM

Michael-

Five different sets would be a bit hard for most of us. (I can't do it meself but me sister can!)

Our group often does three different sets but that's about our limit for polished performance.

I do get impatient, however, when a group does the same set over and over again at a festival.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 09:59 AM

The timing of this question is perfect for me. I'm preparing to leave on a ten day Idaho/Montana singing tour. While the concert dates are still being arranged, it's likely I'll be doing four concerts, a couple of radio gigs, and one supper club show. They are also talking about a high school workshop gig with some music students.

I also hate to do the same show over and over. To avoid that, I'm working up my material, making a nice mix of new and old songs and stories. I fully expect to have somewhere close to 200 songs at my command. This will give me the flexibilty to match my material to just about an audience.

Over the years, I've heard many complaints about nationally known performers who tour and then give the same show, over and over. If you are expecting to be a performer and an entertainer, then you'd better be good at it. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. And ... keep your material fresh, new, and vital. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 10:54 AM

Seamus - well, since you've asked, I'll give the festival a plug: Mississippi Celtic Festival, Sept 11th, 12th and 13th, in Jackson. It's not a huge festival such as NTIF, but it has a big heart and
a fine line-up of talent, such as: Trian (w/ Daithi Sproule and Liz Carroll) Tim Britton, Brendan Nolan, Legacy, Smithfield Fair, and
a host of others. Send me a PM if you need a contact.

Thanks again for all of the comments, shared ideas and practices.

Cheers,.............................mwh

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 06:29 PM

Don't do the same jokes and ad-libs anyway...

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 06:52 PM

Don't do the same jokes and ad-libs anyway...

oh...

:-)

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 06:59 PM

I'd go with Brian's suggestion. If you have a few killers, that aren't common intersperse them. If you usually end or are known to end with a favorite, fine. I'd go with Seamus too about knowing if your audience differs with the sets but not a repaet of any one set. Why not have as many killers as you can & fill all 5 sets up with those & really WOW the audience.

Barry

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 07:09 PM

Speaking as audience, I wouldn't go to see the same artist twice during a festival. One of the features of a good festival is the variety of stuff on offer and I would take advantage of that. Add to that trying to juggle the inevitable clashes.

So I wouldn't know if an artist repeated their set the following day or had done the same set the previous day.

OTOH, I could imagine you might get pretty fed up repeating the same set five times over a short period, so variety benefits you and keeps you fresh even if much of your audience are not aware.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 07:20 PM

The previous comments made me remember something I occasionally tell myself: "I've heard EVERY song I sing." Variety is important to ME also. Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 07:47 PM

Well, I have about 50 songs that I enjoy doin' and part of putting together a set is messin' 'round with keys and tunings and mixin' stuff up for each one... There are ceratin songs that find their way into most sets but, all in all, I don't repeat sets verbatum... And just for grins, I like to put each set into the cumputer, and run a copy off to put on the stage floor to work from... But just as valuable, I keep a file on each performance... That's kinda fun to look back at a set I did four years ago at such-in-such joint and see where I was at the time... It also provides me with songs that have grown a tad on the cold side that need some attention...

BTW, I do have a never-repeat-a-key-in-back-to-back-songs phobia... I never ever do that... If it looks as if that's they way a set is leanin' then I'll work up two or three songs into a medely... But blues is differnt than alot of styles of music and medelies work very well...

B~

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 08:24 PM

For what it's worth.

When I was singing regularly in coffeehouses two or three nights a week (and I did that sort of thing for a number of years), I generally sang four or five 35 or 40 minute sets per evening, and I tried to avoid singing the same song twice in the same evening—or over the same weekend—unless by request. Nor would I sing the same set two weekends in a row, although I may repeat some songs on consecutive weekends.

As a "set planning kit," I got myself some packs of 3 x 5 file cards and wrote the name of one song (along with other info, such as what key it did the song in, where I learned it, and a bit of background on it) on each card. From time to time I would take a thick stack of cards, shuffle them, and deal out about a dozen or so cards. I would then go through the cards, put some in a "yes" pile and the others in a "no" pile. Then I would deal out some more and do the same. When I had about 40 minutes worth of songs in the "yes" pile that were varying in key (avoid singing two songs in a row in the same key) and varying in tempo. AND varying in mood (not all funny stuff and not all downers), AND varying in length (some short, some a bit longer, from time to time a long ballad). Usually they varied in subject as well, but I would also construct sets of all sea songs or all children's songs, or whatever. Thematic.

I would then write the set list into a little notebook that I could carry around in a shirt pocket. I usually had a couple dozen sets all planned. There were some song repeats, but not many.

I think I knew about 200 or so songs at the time, and by very rarely repeating a set exactly, over a time I developed a reputation for knowing "thousands of songs!" (Not quite! But whenever I heard someone say it, I would just smile enigmantically.)

This made concert planning a lot easier too. Figuring a 50 minute first half and a 45 minute second half, with, hopefully, a few encores, I could take a couple of my preplanned sets, maybe add a few songs, and switch a few around, I was all ready to go.

And in the course of laying out the sets, in terms of length, be sure to figure in enough time to blab a bit between songs—but don't overdo it! Know roughly what you're going to say, but don't repeat the same spiel verbatim.

I once heard Richard Dyer-Bennet sing three concerts on three consecutive evenings. No repeats. I asked him how many songs he knew, and he said that he estimated that he knew about 700. Then I asked him how he managed to keep that many songs fresh. He responded that, on a concert tour, rather than repeat the same concert in every city like some performers do, he tried not to repeat a song until he had gone through his whole list. He used a system similar to mine.

The "shuffle and deal" system also works well for programming records or CDs. There, you really shouldn't repeat yourself. Unless there is a darned good reason for it, don't repeat songs on subsequent CDs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 08:25 PM

It depends on how many stages there are at the festival. If there's only one stage, then you should strive for as little repetition as possible. But if there are five stages going at the same time, any one person who catches all of your sets is either your biggest fan, your wife, or a stalker. None of them will care if you repeat a set.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:19 PM

Know your songs and read/feel the audience. Be able to mix and not be repetitive.

Especially Don't do the same jokes and ad-libs anyway... !!

Chas

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:50 PM

I'm puzzled by the warning against doing consecutive songs in the same key. When you're in the audience, do you really notice what keys the songs are in? Do you really notice when two songs in a row are done in the same key? Have you found that even audience members (like me) who aren't sophisticated enough to be able to tell that two songs are in the same key will sense some kind of sameness and be turned off by consecutive songs in the same key?

[Disclaimer: I never have this problem as a performer, since I can seldom stay in the same key for more than a few bars, let alone two whole songs....]

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 03:26 AM

Do you really notice when two songs in a row are done in the same key?

For me at least, absolutely. I might not be able to immediately tell you what key they're in without thinking about it & maybe squinting at the chord shapes and fingerings, but the lack of variety, to me, is immediately noticeable, just as much as two consecutive songs in the same rhythm or tempo or arrangement would be.

Personally I don't mind two in a row in the same key too much (provided the rhythm and tempo is varied), but three in a row is distracting and takes my attention from the individual pieces, and any more than that and I really start to switch off.

And yes, I suspect that the lack of variety would be noticeable by those who couldn't technically identify the *cause* of the problem.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Dick The Box
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 03:51 AM

From an audience perspective, if you go to see the same performer more than once at the same festival then it is because you like them and their material. And if you like the performer and their material then you won't mind hearing some things more than once. That said, I would not be happy to hear exactly the same set again, complete with scripted jokes and ad-libs. I suppose what I am saying is that as long as I got to hear some new stuff each set then I would be happy.

From a performing perspective, the easy option is to stick to the material you know well because you present it better. The more lesser used material put in, the more chance there is of a cock-up. However, easy does not always equal good!

I think that a mixture of previously performed good stuff and a reasonable chunk of not-yet-performed is best for both audience and performer.....

Richard Ashe

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: GUEST,HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:23 AM

Just looked at the two, seperate, hour-long sets we just did at Shrewsbury....
ten in the first set (late afternoon concert)...

and twelve in the second (on last thing at night,
so used some of our more uptempo material to make it more of a bop)...

No actual songs repeated, but two of our instrumental/jigs
were played in the first set, shortened and combined as a medley.

Used those two again (seperately, in their full form) in the second set as one is our 'usual' big finish number
- and those that follow us DO expect that one every time... Bless! ;0)

By way of reply to a couple more interesting points above...
We found a large number of of folk DID come to both shows
- but I had made a point at the first show that we would do a diff set of uptempo in the eve
- wonder if that made some minds up - hah! - either way! ;0)

And... consec songs in the same key...
we feel this makes little difference if/when we do just that...
this one in D might be 4/4 and uptempo, the next might be slow
and in threes - this one in Em might be in a ska/reggae feel,
the next in Em a fast rockier number.
Surely it's predominately the 'feel' of the song, it's own dynamics, pace, lyric etc
that gives the song individual character and to a large extent negates the fact that two might follow in the same key?
that makes the song varied.

All the best- Duncan

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:31 AM

Speaking as a member of an audience I get really pxssed off when I go to hear an act for the second time, cos a liked them a lot the first time, and they do a completely different set.

I am not an idiot - I have played ALL my CDs more than once.

Best balance for me would be 50% the same, but FIVE sets (!) now that does seem a tall order

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Santa
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:43 AM

I'm recently back from Saltburn, where I went to see Grace Notes three (or was it four?) times, so I guess that makes me a stalker. They didn't seem to mind. They didn't do complete repeat sets, just a few favourites. My wife was doing something similar with Nancy Kerr and James Fagan, so when she came to the last GN set I was able to pass on the good news - Witch is back in the repertoire! Then they didn't repeat it....

There's no ideal way, but as an audience member I'd agree that complete repetition should be avoided if possible. If I see two identical sets, I'll tend to avoid the artist in the future (at least, the near future.) I suspect that the more varied two different sets are, the more likely I am to go to a third.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: banksie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:43 AM

"Don't do the same jokes and ad-libs anyway... "

Unless, of course, you are Derek Brimstone. I have seen hime get requests for song introductions, let alone requests for songs. And, unlike many jokes, his always seem worth the repetition.

And as Dick the Box said, if you like an act, you won't mind hearing them and the same song(s) twice. The Spooky Men's Chorale is a good case in point. Saw them two days running at Towersey with only marginal differences in the sets - but both were stunning. Same with Bellowhead when they first started. And thereby lies some basic rule, I guess: the numerically bigger the act, the more difficult it becomes to add and arrange repertoire. I've seen solo acts do new songs at festivals, with the words on paper stuck to the top of the guitar - and its worked just fine.

I'd agree that the same set - in the same order - five times in a row is pushing one's luck but some careful randomising from a bigger total repertoire (even only slightly bigger) can provide freshness and difference.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:44 AM

Agree, there, Matt - that's why I said...
''I had made a point at the first show that we would do a diff set of uptempo in the eve
- wonder if that made some minds up - hah! - either way!''

It did occur to me, at the time, that some might think - 'well,
won't go tonight, wouldn't have minded hearing most of those again!'

Another thought - prompted by your statement that you play ALL your CDs - we have four CDs on sale
- and believe there's strong material on all four - so we also like to show off as many of them as possible - hence ringing the changes over the two sets.

On to the next fest... and we'll still cherry pick the best
so that the fans that liked the 'faves' get to hear 'em again
- tho we always strive to pepper the sets with something new to - as much for
our own sake!
Cheers!

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 03:17 PM

Regarding doing two or more songs in a row in the same key:

It's a subtle thing, but it's very real. Most people (other than very well-trained musicians or people with perfect pitch) won't even notice that the key is the same, but after hearing the same series of notes, albeit in different order, for several minutes, a subtle form of boredom can begin to creep in. You may not be able to identify the reason, but after someone sings several songs in a row in the same key, you may notice that there is something a bit dull about this particular singer, even if the songs themselves are very interesting and they are well sung. There's something about this singer that doesn't quite turn your crank.

There was a very good singer who was among us for several years. He had a really good voice, he knew all kinds of great songs—and he sang them all in the same key—G. Or Em, G's relative minor, which uses the same notes. I heard him a number of times in concert or doing sets at festivals. I enjoyed listening to him. But after a bit, everything started sounding alike.

I don't have absolute pitch, but I did notice that things tended to get a bit bland after a few songs. And I wasn't the only one.

Beethoven's Ninth Symphony starts in D minor. But it doesn't stay there. It modulates into other keys (as do all of his symphonies). The better, more experienced classical singers—and instrumentalists—are careful to vary the keys of the songs or pieces they perform in their concerts and recitals.

There is a reason for that.

####

And another point to ponder:    Some night club performers, who do maybe four or five shows (sets) a night, will do the same show over and over again. This encourages turnover in the crowd.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:02 PM

Hell, I've known some (prominent) performers who have been doing the same set, with the same joks and the same intros for a least 30 years.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:22 PM

Here'
s what some might think heresy.

In the late 60's I saw Odetta perform (I was in my late teens at the time) on a good few occasions. She was great, she was my first folk hero.
A little better than 10 yrs we got booked when we were book for the Mystic Sea Music Festival I was over the moon to find out Odetta was also on the line up. Shear joy. Wait she doesn't do sea music???Who gives a shit!!!! Well half way into her concert set it was the same stuff she always did, nothing different, I could even finish off her jokes. Very disappointed I left & had drink. Even after 40 odd yrs a complete repeat is boring, a mix would've been just fine

Saying that at Scarborough we did a lot of songs that were, from what we could gather) unheard ofor at least very seldom sung so by the response from the audience we did repeat some of those at various venues & even were asked by some if we'd sing some into recorders.

If I hear a performer do what I'd consider a killer, I'd go back to hear them again just for that one song, even a few times

Yrs ago I caught my young teen daughter up in the front row of 'Old Songs Festival' listening to Steve Tilson, she loved his "Slip, Jigs & Reels". She followed him around like a puppy mainly cuz she loved "THAT" song
(she did like his others too).

Barry

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 04:27 PM

Funny cross posting Dick

Barry

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 06:16 PM

Ayeh

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 07:42 PM

My thanks to all who have responded to my question about consecutive songs in the same key, especially to sfmans and Don Firth. Mudcat has once again opened my eyes to things I never would have imagined without it.

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 10:45 PM

Yes, I agree, "GUEST,Gerry" - a lot of ideas exchanged here, and that's what this website is all about. Thanks to all for giving.
Cheers,...........................mwh

Subject: RE: Opinions: set repetition at festivals
From: GUEST,Fantum
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 08:15 AM

I change my sets always
Like others above I have the odd killers or expected stuff but 80% is going to change. Because there may be some audience overlap I feel the set has to change to keep them interested. So some may be from the dusty end of the repertoire and might require some practice but thats just work.
I to went to Saltburn and fun it was to but I caught one performer twice and they did the same set. Not wrong but disappointing.