BS: UK immigration too high?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

BBC reporting figs obtained by Telegraph under freedom of info act.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7147954.stm

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000682/SFR38-2006web3.xls#Table34!A1

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:56 PM

Net migration
Of the standard population variants, the net migration variants have the largest impact on the household projections, reflecting the size of the variant assumptions. The high migration variant increases the number of households by 33,000 per year between 2006 and 2031 compared to the principal projection. Under the high migration variant there is an increase of 810,000 households over the 25 year projection period, leading to 28.6 million households in 2031, compared to 27.8
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/pdf/1172133.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:34 PM

Tug, I would continue your sentence with the word "AND", as in;
"I am not a racist and this debate is not about race anyway"

Are you in a mindset that believes, "anyone with the slightest reservation about large scale immigration can only be a racist" ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:29 PM

http://www.gad.gov.uk/Documents/Demography/Projections/2004-based_national_population_projections.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:26 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/23/immigrationandpublicservices.immigration
guardian on same projection.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:11 PM

it is not all in one place.
it is useful to have a reputable body do the searching.
Here are projected population figures.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1352

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:00 PM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/default.asp

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:40 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/SearchRes.asp?term=immigration&x=33&y=13

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:38 AM

Keith A of Hertford,

Your link refers the Office for National Statistics

I've given a link to it above, but here it is again.

Can you point me to where this site says:

'The independent Office for National Statistics projects an increase in population of nearly 10 million in the next 20 years, nearly all in England. 70% will be due to immigration .
The need for housing pushes up rents and increases the waiting lists for social housing

The latest government household projections show that immigration will account for 39% of all new households in the next 20 years.

Meanwhile, there are more than 300 primary schools in which over 70% have English as a second language; this is nearly a half million children.

Especially in our cities, immigration is the overwhelming factor in these issues. '

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingPaper/document/96

"The need for housing....." is my own observation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 11:16 AM

Which single word always follows the phrase
'I am not a racist.....'

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 10:37 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/SearchRes.asp?term=immigration&x=33&y=13

Can you point me to where it says:

'The independent Office for National Statistics projects an increase in population of nearly 10 million in the next 20 years, nearly all in England. 70% will be due to immigration .
The need for housing pushes up rents and increases the waiting lists for social housing'

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:51 AM

The independent Office for National Statistics projects an increase in population of nearly 10 million in the next 20 years, nearly all in England. 70% will be due to immigration .
The need for housing pushes up rents and increases the waiting lists for social housing

The latest government household projections show that immigration will account for 39% of all new households in the next 20 years.

Meanwhile, there are more than 300 primary schools in which over 70% have English as a second language; this is nearly a half million children.

Especially in our cities, immigration is the overwhelming factor in these issues.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 07:38 AM

'people have concerns over the driving down of wages, competion for jobs, shortage of social housing, services like health and education stretched and inadequate, overcrowing of roads and transport systems, environmental degradation and so on.'


Ok, all above true, but how do you arrive at the conclusion that these issues are all down to immigration?

Surely, for a balanced discourse, there's many influences and variables which together are contributory causal factors of these problems

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:02 AM

Don, you speak as if I make frequent "crashing inaccuracies."
I made one, and corrected it within minutes.

Let me clarify exactly.
In 2007 the average number of immigrants was one thousand five hundred and eighty every day.
It was even greater the previous year.

You were kind enough to acknowledge that I mean well.
After all the recent abuse I promise you that was warmly received.
Thanks.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:18 PM

Don, leave them alone and they may just leave you alone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:56 PM

""It is a measure of how pathetically inarticulate they are that they are unable to string an argument together themselves, but they will get no support from me for racist policies, repatriation or any other of their nonsenses.""

I'm sorry Keith, I know you mean well, but whether it gives YOU pleasure or not, every time you come out with one of those crashing inaccuracies on a public forum, you MAKE THEIR POINT FOR THEM!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:53 PM

sorry, not thousands every day.
hundreds more like.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:42 PM

I take no pleasure if those bigots are indeed cheering me on, as I know the unwanted "guests" have.

It is a measure of how pathetically inarticulate they are that they are unable to string an argument together themselves, but they will get no support from me for racist policies, repatriation or any other of their nonsenses.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:33 PM

Don,
your point 1.
There are controls in place but they have had little impact.
You have to suspect that our ruling class and employers are secretly very happy to have thousands of non unionised cheap labour arriving every day.
2. I do not think that current controls are sufficient.

about the BNP.

We have a history of tolerance here. The far right have never had the hold they do in France, Italy, lately Holland, Spain etc.

The concerns I put to MrH bear down hardest on the working class.
The mainstream parties ignore their concerns and call them racist.
They feel no one takes them seriously, and then along come BNP.

I hate them.
Ignorant, racist scum.
You will not drive them back where they came from by just ignoring this issue.
That is how they gain in strength.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 01:18 PM

mr Happy, people have concerns over the driving down of wages, competion for jobs, shortage of social housing, services like health and education stretched and inadequate, overcrowing of roads and transport systems, environmental degradation and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:36 AM

As the bard Shakespeare [wonder wot his ethnic origin wos - apart from being a Brummie from SoT!]

said, 'A rose by any other name would smell.....'

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:32 AM

""This debate is not about existing immigrant communities. Nobody is remotely suggesting that they should leave. The issue is how many more people our island can sustain.""

With respect Keith, that is exactly what many people ARE suggesting, and they are finding their voice through that organisation we are discouraged from naming in this thread.

There are TWO points worth taking into account.

1. If you are, as you say, only concerned with future immigration, then the controls are already in place, and simply need tuning to the necessary level.

2. If you see those controls as being insufficient or non-existent, perhaps there might be a need to re-examine your point of view?

I will also point out that members of the aforementioned organisation are loudly applauding your efforts here, and consider you as somewhat of a hero, on their Facebook discussion board.

If that were me they were cheering, I'd be looking to find where I had gone wrong.

Of course you could always go the whole hog, and join..........

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:25 AM

Not necessarily, but I am wondering what issues/ 'legitimate concerns' are so worrying to some people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:23 AM

"Maybe, but does that have a bearing on the level of immigration that is reasonable now?"

No, but neither did your statement. If, however, in the future, older people cannot find work and, therefore, unemployment levels increase, the anti-immigration lobby will probably blame immigration instead of looking for the real cause - rampant ageism amongst employers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:20 AM

Mr Happy, were you expecting a statement that they are taking British jobs?
They only claim as fact that for which they have hard evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:03 AM

From link above


'Are economic migrants taking British jobs?


There is some anecdotal evidence of foreign workers being preferred. However, the UK labour market is large and complex with nearly 30 million in the work force and, of course,

the total number of jobs is not fixed.

The statistics are not unambiguous

but there are some worrying signs '.............??


**************

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:56 AM

I think that you are right on both counts, but most of our immigrants are Third World, and unskilled or low skilled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM

Thganks Keith A. for providing up to date figures. I am sure I have read figures about the type of jobs (other than unskilled) which require a strteam of qualified incomers.
I am also aware that many incomers find work ( or are only able to find work) beneath the level of their qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:30 AM

Mr.H, since 2002 the number of foreign born workers aged over 16 has increased by 1.1 million yet in October 2008 there were still 610,000 vacancies. The reason is that immigrants also create demand which in turn creates new jobs, so the argument from labour shortages leads to an endless cycle of immigration.


Don't we need foreigners to do to the jobs that British people are unwilling to do?
No. The underlying issue is pay rates for the unskilled (Briefing Paper 1.22). At present, the difference between unskilled pay and benefits is so narrow that, for some, it is hardly worth working. That partly explains why we have 2 million unemployed and a further 2.6 million on incapacity benefit, of whom the Government wishes to move 1 million from welfare to work. These figures include just over one million young people who are not in education, employment or training.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faq

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:18 AM

What's the magic number for vacancies/ spare places here?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM

Tug, until 1982 there was a net outflow of migrants from Britain.
Between 1982 and 1997 average net immigration was about 50,000 a year. It has
climbed rapidly since 1997 to reach a peak of 244,000 in 2004. This has now fallen to
about 190,000 a year
http://www.balancedmigration.com/pdfs/ourcase_1.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:05 AM

As with McGrath's observation that immigrants make a community more varied and interesting.
That is my observation too, but there must be an upper limit that can reasonably be accomodated in a small and very densely populated island.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:58 AM

Cor, its enough to make you go and live in South Africa, or maybe Australia. hear there's some great expat communities in Spain and the greek islands.Hong Kong sounds good as well, and of course the whole EU is my oyster.

   For almost every year in the late 20th century we had a net fall on emigration figures, i.e. more people left than arrived. What are the figures now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:52 AM

Maybe, but does that have a bearing on the level of immigration that is reasonable now?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:41 AM

............& ultimately, everyone who inhabits these islands has an ancestry which has originated elsewhere.

Take Guest Geordie for example, if he's frae Gateshead, Newcastle, etc then its likely his four bears were invading immigrants from somewhere northern Europe [or even beyond]

Perhaps we should all go back to our place of origin?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:20 AM

"The real answer is that, as people now live longer, they should work longer."

Yes, but that smug statement completely ignores the reality. Have you ever tried getting ajob when you're over 50 - or over 60? Believe me, it isn't easy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

Don't we need migrants to help pay for our pensions?
This is false. Immigrants themselves grow older so the only effect, even of very large scale immigration, is to postpone by a few years the impact of an ageing population. The real answer is that, as people now live longer, they should work longer. The Turner Commission on pensions dismissed the argument that immigration would help with pensions saying that only high immigration can produce more than a trivial reduction in the projected dependency ratio over the next 50 years...and this would be only a temporary affect unless still higher levels of immigration continued in later years... This view was endorsed by the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs in their report published in April 2008.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faq

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:48 PM

"Zero population growth would certainly aggravate the pensions timebomb"

In a separate (though current) thread you stated that we need more birth control and abortions, now you are worried about stagnation of population growth(?) . . . if I'm ever involved in a court case, I want you to represent my adversary.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:15 PM

What did the Celts use?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

oops pressed knob too soon - meant to say our musical endeavours would be considerably the poorer without influences from near & far.

No bagpipes [orig. from India] , guitars, banjos [Africa], fiddles, free reed insts [China] , do I need say more?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:41 AM

I've just come home from Ingleton FF.

All the pubs & other venues were full of immigrants from all over the place including yours truly.

The language barrier was an issue as late at night after really intense & focussed imbibing, many were speaking [& singing] in tongues!

Luckily, music being the food of love we played on & on!

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:40 AM

I wonder what those who are against immigration to the UK think about all those British people who retire to take over vast tracts of Spain. Sauce for the goose?

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:31 AM

As with comedy, Keith - the secret is timing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:27 AM

The Government claim that immigrants add £6 billion to our economy. What they do not say is that they also add to our population in almost exactly the same proportion as they add to production. Thus the benefit to the native population is very small - an outcome confirmed by major studies in the US, Canada and Holland and most recently by the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs. The Government's own calculation, submitted in evidence to that Committee, implies an annual benefit to the resident population of only 62p per head a week (see White Paper Cm 7414 para 2.5).

Surely London would collapse without immigrants?
This debate is not about existing immigrant communities. Nobody is remotely suggesting that they should leave. The issue is how many more people our island can sustain.

Do we need immigration to fill 600,000 vacancies?
No. The Government first made this claim in 2002. Since then the number of foreign born workers aged over 16 has increased by 1.1 million yet in October 2008 there were still 610,000 vacancies. The reason is that immigrants also create demand which in turn creates new jobs, so the argument from labour shortages leads to an endless cycle of immigration.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faq

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:14 PM

I do not agree with the select committee report. I suspect there is an element of pandering in it. It plainly missed a very fundamental point about immigration providing needed labour - the time factor.

I also, however, disagree with Euro-centric views about control. IMHO the Brown=Darling response to the recession (apsrt from the absence of proper control about banks, which seems to be back on the agenda) was almost wholly right. The only bit of it I disagreed with was the scrappage scheme which should have been limited to vehicles under 15 years old, and/or should have provided for classic vehicle clubs to acquire classics threatened to be scrapped.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:14 PM

So the standing-room-only effect is the only thing to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:07 PM

Where I live is a New Tiown, so virtually everybody here either came here from somewhere else or their parents did, and we've still got planty of more recent newcomers. I can't really see it makes much difference that some of my neighbours came from Poland or Ghana as well as London, Yorkshire and Ireland. Except that it makes for a more varied and interesting neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: BS: UK immigration too high?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 08:09 AM

Rather have Eastern Europeans who speak with a clear voice and have a grasp of good English - ever been to Surrey Steet Market in Croydon - you need subtitles for the oik market traders!