BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 06:17 PM

1. The difference in US/UK culture continues to warp a lot of well-meant conversation-starts into increasingly-messy cascades of misunderstanding and upset.

2. The intrusion of political views and personal mudslinging into music threads continues to attract more of same and more negativity there and all over the forum. In part this is due to #1 above-- the music world in the UK takes place in a fishbowl, while in the US it's not only not a fishbowl, it isn't a large aquarium either or any watery metaphor-- it's more like a journey by train thru various terrains.

3. So back to #1-- we are trying to co-exist in too many mixed metaphors, when the only argument worth really having in this setting is "what is folk music".

4. Face to face, a good faciolitator can enforce that the only safe response to MANY statements is, "Hm, that's interesting, X-- thanks for sharing your point of view..... Who's next.....?" In text, minus faces-- all hell can and does break loose.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 06:13 PM

BTW....don't focus on the negative....there are a lot of good things going on here....where else is there a secret Santa? I was fortunate to personally meet the most interesting Mr Wendon this summer because of Mudcat. Don't worry....be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 06:12 PM

I would say the answer would be to hold everyone to the same standard and apply the same rules and the same consequences to everyone - something that has not ever been done in the Mudcat, and has been the source of most of its headaches throughout its history. This means that, no matter how deeply entrenched a poster is in the Mudcat core group, or how esteemed they are as a musician, hold them to the same standards as the least regarded and most peripheral posters, and apply exactly the same remedies for their behavior. This is doubly important to apply to people with moderator powers.

Things will never improve in the Mudcat until this happens. Personally, I don't think it ever will. I expect that ten years from now, if the Mudcat is still here, this kind of discussion will still be taking place, because the Mudcat social order is and has always been built around the notion of "good guys" and "bad guys", and those designated as the "good guys" are allowed to do whatever the hell they want, and those designated as the "bad guys" are designated as official and legitimate targets of whatever anyone wants to do to them.

---

I know you'll never believe me, Carol, but what you ask is exactly what we try to do. I can't discuss anything more than that publicly, but I'm willing to talk on the phone. I'm listed in the phone book in Auburn, California.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

I suspect people can be nasty, in the heat of argument. I also suspect that other folks can be sensitive, about specific issues, where they hold strong personal opinions. Itry and be civil...though at times off beat.

I learn from discussion, and tune out when I am not interested, or if folks get out of line.

I observe that some folks have made friends, and that's a good thing....but, at times certain circles seems small and exclusive. Most dicsussion ngroups have regular members and those that come an go...for a variety of reaseons (including disagreements in discussions) . I don't see that as serious....or much to worry about. After all, people are from all over...from all walks of life....experiences and beliefs. Is it not normal to have a bit of that?

It seems odd to me that a lot of stuff is coming up for discussion....for example, music versus BS content and this thread.

Maybe it's all being taken too seriously? After all....its just a web site,and just words. It would be boring if there were not some heated, and interesting moments....kind of like a sull music site with no other place to go to get to know members.

---

Yup, it's just a Website; and yup, it's just words - but words can hurt, and people are leaving us because they've been hurt.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

I believe that pretty well all the people here in the Mudcat are decent folk in real life ... somehow people tend to get nasty and somewhat egotistical when involved in internet forums ... this negative attitude issue and discussions has have been going on here since I've been a member ... I really don't know what can be done ... but thanks anyway Joe for starting this thread ... let's see what becomes of it.

biLL

---

Well, Bill, I'm not supposed to allow you to post because you're not logged in - but your identity is easy to verify, so I'll look the other way...
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 06:00 PM

Phew!
I admire your candour, Joe. And, as I mentioned on an earlier, thread, I admire your particular stance on religion, despite my usually militant atheism.
On the BNP thing, I'm going to have to differ, though. Having lived through the Seventies in the UK, I've seen what the far-right thugs of the BNP and its predecessor, the National Front, can do. I live in a small-ish country that needs cohesion and tolerance if it is to survive, and the BNP is the absolute antithesis of that.
This is far, far more than even the most polarised Republican vs Democrat schtick. We are dcealing here with an ideology that is founded on hatred and division; an ideology which modelled itself on national socialism and which, in private, is still proud to call itself national socialist.
It is an ideology which sets out deliberate to recruit the disaffected and to turn them into its foot soldiers. I've known MBS George for probably 10 years; certainly since she started coming to the Middle Bar. She has a beautiful voice and is an excellent singer who can bring a room to a hushed standstill. But.
If she - or anyone else for that matter - had said "I'm voting BNP", then I could have understood. It's easy to be swayed by the muscular rhetoric and the simplistic arguments of the fascists, after all. But to seek election as someone who embodies the values of the BNP and to ask the world to endorse your embrace of a known fascist and racist party is something else completely. Call me self-righteous if you will, but if someone is prepared to stand for election on a fascist and racist ticket, then I am going to 'jump all over them'.
Folk music is an awkward constituency - it likes to pride itself on its inclusiveness, yet in the UK it is almost exclusively white, and the BNP is on record as stating that it wants to make folk music its own. That's what the Nazis did in Germany in the 1930s, and to this day German folk music is tarnished. I don't want my culture to be dragged through the mud by people like MBS George. she is already attracting media attention in the UK for her political views, and I want to be as loud and forthright as I can in saying that she does not represent me or anyone else I know in the traditional music world.
Anyway, that's my two-pennorth. And thanks for starting what could be an interesting thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 05:54 PM

I'm not saying Mudcat is horrible, but I think it's clear that we've had some problems and animosity lately. Because of that tone, there are many good musicians who won't come to Mudcat at all; or else they come just to get lyrics and not to join in the discussions. Like it or not, a lot of people think of Mudcat as a place where people like to be nasty.

So, my question is, what can we do to change the tone of Mudcat to something more positive? There's a lot here that is absolutely wonderful - but there is enough negative stuff here, that we're scaring people away. Back in the 1960's, there was an ironic bumper sticker that said Kill For Peace!!! Sadly, it seemed that many people actually lived by that slogan. The same is true here. There are Mudcatters who believe that Christians and BNP members and others are so horrible, that the only tactic that can be used against them, is cruel aggression. Sorry folks, but evil does not cure evil. And many of those you think are evil, may not be as bad as you are.

And can we conduct this discussion in a civil manner? Nattering nabobs of negativism are not welcome in this thread.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 05:46 PM

Thanks, Joe.

Subject: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 05:39 PM

I said the following in a moderator's comment after a thread was closed:

I have to say that I share his disillusion with the prejudice and nastiness that is so pervasive at Mudcat these days. Even though some Christians have done horrible things in the name of their faith, that's no justification for the overall prejudice against Christianity that exists at Mudcat. And even though I'm sure that it is righteous to oppose the BNP, the nastiness at Mudcat in the name of righteousness - is still nastiness. Think about those things - no, I'm not going to open that for discussion, because it will just get nasty and bigoted all over again. Dan is not the only one who has abandoned his Mudcat membership because of the bigotry and nastiness here. I don't know how these things can be resolved, but I wish they could be.

I suppose it's not quite fair to say something like that and not allow discussion, so I will allow it for a limited time, and I will monitor it very closely. I'm not at liberty to name names, but there are a number of good people who have left their Mudcat memberships recently, and it's for two main reasons:

• The horrible meanness in the threads on the BNP (British National Party)
  
• The constant anti-Christian bigotry that is expressed at Mudcat

And the thing about all this that is so distressing, is that this bigotry and nastiness is coming from people who are otherwise quite admirable people, people who would ordinarily be thought of as 'the good guys" - but yet they can be horribly mean and horribly prejudiced.
The Conventional Wisdom at Mudcat is that Christians are evil and BNP Nazis are evil, so they're fair game, and anything said against them is righteous.
The most distressing example was one day when MBSGeorge posted on a BNP thread, and people just ganged up and battered her. MBSGeorge is a longtime Mudcatter and a longtime member of the UK folk community, and I hear from people who know her that she is a very nice person. BUT she ran for office as a BNP candidate for a minor local position, so now she has been repeatedly and cruelly condemned at Mudcat as a bigot and a horrible person. Mind you, MBSGeorge has never said a nasty or bigoted word at Mudcat - but if she dares to post, you can be sure that an angry mob of self-righteous Mudcatters are going to jump all over her.
Yes, we do have occasional visits from BNP trolls (and from other trolls masquerading as BNP members), and I'm sure they get great pleasure out of the hysterically righteous reaction many Mudcatters give them. I'm sure our anti-BNP troupe draws a lot of the pro-BNP posts we get, because it's known that Mudcat has become a place where troublemakers can always find a good brawl. I still think silence or rational, clever replies are a far better tool to use against the BNP trolls.
I lead a Bible study at my Catholic parish on Monday mornings. There's one woman in the Bible study who constantly complains because she says our parish is not a "pro-life" parish since we don't have a steady stream of anti-abortion propaganda. I'd say the vast majority of Catholic are against abortion, but they could also be called "pro-choice" because they don't believe that legislation or criminalization (or propaganda) will effectively reduce the number of abortions. I've found that parishes that have strong anti-abortion campaigns, often have a very nasty, negative air about them - because they're all about being against something instead of doing something constructive like feeding the poor or giving housing to the homeless.
Same thing applies to Mudcat - negativism will destroy us, even if it's in the name of righteousness.

OK, now about the Christian thing. The conventional wisdom at Mudcat is that all Christians are anti-abortion, anti-evolution, anti-homosexual, sexist bigots. And Catholics are even worse, since they follow every dictate of the Pope and promote child molestation. You know, I suppose there are a few Christians and a few Catholic Christians who fit those descriptions, but most don't. But there's very little said at Mudcat about Christians who demonstrated and were beaten and arrested for peace and civil rights, who run homeless shelters and soup kitchens, who run remarkable schools and healthcare institutions, and who do all sorts of other wonderful things for the good of society.
I get along here just fine, but I do have to say that at time, I feel marginalized here. There's always the underlying feeling that I'm an outsider, because I'm a Christian and a Catholic. There was even one anonymous post here that called me a child molester.
But it's more than just righteous nastiness against the BNP and anti-Christian bigotry. There's an underlying tone of animosity and mistrust at Mudcat that is hurting us as a community, a cancer that is silently destroying us. There seems to be philosophy arising that says, "I'm right, so it's righteous for me to attack others."
When you post, try to remember that there are real people reading your posts - and if you post is an attack, somebody's going to get hurt. So, could we lighten up a bit and do our best to ensure that nobody gets hurt, even if we disagree with them?
I'll open this to discussion, but only to civil discussion. I will not allow any posts from guests, even if they are members; and I will not allow any posts from new members whose identity I cannot verify. I'm sure this thread may get nasty, and I'll close it if it does - but I guess it's a good idea for some honest (and I hope charitable) discussion.

-Joe-