the UK folk revival in 2010

Subject: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:09 PM

Any ideas on ways it can be improved.
are there any musical aspects that are becoming marginalised, or in danger of disappearing?
should more Folk clubs be introducing workshops?
how well do Folk Festivals organise their Festivals,and how satisfactory are Folk Festival Workshops,have festival goers learned very much at Festival Workshops and how do they compare to tuition offered on the internet?

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

Support Village Halls and The Community and sod the pubs.

Thats what we are doing at http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk/

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:40 PM

Stop calling it a "revival" and thinking that folk clubs are still the core of it. Pay attention!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM

Pay attention myself! That was me not logged in (still)

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:06 PM

Why ignore the pubs? There are too many closing down already.
There are some pubs that have excellent sessions and bear in mind that a fair proportion of the songs and tunes that have come down to us probably only survived because they were sung in pubs not because somebody organised a workshop.

Hoot

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Lox
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:11 PM

You just have to play ... with passion ... a lot ... and draw the passers by in ... and try not to be snobbish about it but inclusive and welcoming ... then folks curiosity may tunr into involvement and in the long run a positive addition to the scene.

play play play!!!

And make it matter!


And promote it and advertize it on posters, in the papers and online.

Like any other event.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:02 PM

Getting non folkie friends to watch the webcast of the mainstage from our local Shrewsbury Folk Festival in Shropshire this August was the biggest help in converting them to want to go to live concerts, heck I've even got a few who no longer consider me 'weird' for enjoying Folk. They had all the preconceived ideas of Folk being a narrow genre. The official videos on the Festival Youtube channel are a great help too in dispelling the myth. Silver Surfers are a growing trend!

Since then one friend came to see The Unthanks in Whitchurch & loved them and another is planning to go to Shrewsbury Folk Festival 2010 and someone else has booked to see the Ukulele Orchestra of GB at Theatre Severn. The fact that Theatre Severn is perceived as 'mainstream' and they are putting on roughly 2 Folk concerts a month next year is making it easier to encourage more people of my mature years to experience all areas of the wonderful world of Folk.

The Webcast from the Festival gave out the right vibes of how varied and energising Folk is at the moment, something that the BBC has failed to do with the miserably belated coverage of Cambridge. I understand there are people coming over/hoping to come over from the US just to go to Shrewsbury purely based on what they saw on the live webcast.

I also nagged the manager of our small market town Arts Centre all year to screen Morris: A life with bells on and finally he did on 10th December to a packed house: but stubbornly will not book Folk Artists as he fears there is no audience, it's so frustrating as the venue is acoustically perfect. So I've given up all hope of walking to an event & will have to continue to drive (as zero public transport for evening return trips!).

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:06 PM

The Villan

Support Village Halls and The Community and sod the pubs.

There's room for both, Les. Neither harms the other.

Nice idea, Hoot, but these days people don't sing in pubs they watch Sky Sport. Do you want us to stop running workshops?

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:55 AM

Snail
I know and I agree.

The trouble is that too many pubs are either closing or kick folk clubs out when it changes hands etc. Sometimes those clubs stop, becuase there isn't another pub to accomodate them. Very often thevillage hall gets overlooked. In between times, village halls are dying and the local community are being isolated more and more.
Les

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:26 AM

I dont want anyone to stop running workshops.
Clubs[imo] should be places where people socialise as well as enjoy music.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:38 AM

Competently sung songs corresponding more or less to what it says on the label might be a good place to start.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:46 AM

"Nice idea, Hoot, but these days people don't sing in pubs they watch Sky Sport."

My local doesn't have a telly. But we do sing there a lot - not necessarily in an organised way. If certain regulars turn up, there's a sing-song. It's nice.

A monthly session has just started - again, mostly locals and regulars and very informal. Could never be called anything so grand as a "folk club". Not so much about folk as about the community. Works for me.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:50 AM

Jim Carroll

Competently sung songs corresponding more or less to what it says on the label might be a good place to start.

Here we go again.

It's already happening in a great many places as you well know Jim.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:59 AM

here is a competently sung folk song,one that I sing when doing folk club gigs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWBRV-S4blI
BrianPeters,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCG2csH2OMY

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:21 AM

My suggestions would be ...

Join EFDSS if you haven't already, and support the excellent work they are beginning to do after many years marginalised in the doldrums.

Get out there and do it, whether your particular 'it' is song, music, dance, or any other aspect of the genre that ticks your boxes.

Spend much less time reading pointless arguments on Mudcat.

Get used to the idea that "I don't like that" is not the same thing as "that's not a valid part of the continuing development of the music".

And did I say spend much less time reading pointless arguments on Mudcat?

Happy Xmas everybody

Steve

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:32 AM

I think Beginners Sessions at Festivals have been a really good thing - more of them please and more of them where ever possible

L in C

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:32 AM

Good choices Good Soldier.

Brian Peters sang and played for us in February and Dick Miles is coming to us in June 2010.

(Bit worried about somebody who wears a hat and shades indoors.)

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,N_ster
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:37 AM

The beginners session at Shrewsbury Folk Festival is brilliant and more festivals should have similar.

I have been teaching myself fiddle, so playing at Shrewsbury was my first time playing in front of anyone (I hadn't even played for family or friends!) It was a relaxed pace, the sheet music was available in advance, and although we were encouraged to play from memory no one was judged for using the sheet music.
I don't think I would have the confidence to join a session, without having taken these babysteps first, and it has spurred me on to keep practicing and learning new songs and has given me a taste of sharing and playing with others, which is what folk music is about.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Nick
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:49 AM

I play and sing in pubs a lot. Last night there were probably 40 people in the pub, 20 taking part and 20 either listening or being there because something is always on on a Wednesday. Given that it is almost Xmas, the pub is situated well outside of a small village, the temperature was -5C and snowing I don't think pubs are necessarily dying. I play in a covers band too and that is nearly all in pubs and we play probably once every ten days without having to stray far from home.

Over Xmas I have been invited on Sunday to a pub to go and sing, Wednesday will go to our local, Thursday playing and singing in a pub for New Years Eve, Friday gig in local pub or could go to another, Saturday another pub thing, Sunday singing with friends at their house. That's without even looking.

Not a folk club involved or in sight but plenty of music (some of it trad folk, some not) and mostly centred around pubs.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:52 AM

"Here we go again."
Let me know when you run out of sand for burying your head in Bryan - we don't all live in Lewes and we've had enough debates to know what happens elsewhere (apart from more recent personal experience.
Season's greetings,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: autoharpbob
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:02 AM

In and around Nottingham, we could be suffering imho from a bit of overload. One excellent folk club had an audience of five - the performers outnumbered them by one - for a feature night recently. Main reason appeared to be that another club had just started up nearby, and was putting on well known local groups, free, in order to promote a local festival. I also find that I am one of several people who tend to wander round the many clubs here and bump into each other all the time, so it is becoming a bit incestuous. If I wanted to, I could be at a club every night of the week, and some nights I have three to choose from. All of these folk clubs present a variety of music - most booked acts are in the folk tradition, though sometimes that's the American folk tradition, but there is no accounting for what people perform at folk clubs. I have heard everything from trad finger-in-the-ear stuff to Mad World, and Ziggy Stardust! Which is great.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,padgett on lap top
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:13 AM

Yes it does seem that folk from traditional to contemporary is having to compete with main stream popular music and song

The problem is in finding a ready made audience and pubs seem to be where its at, but everyone wants a slice of the action and "pub" time

There are many excellent artists/musicians and singers out there and if folk is your thing you may be following anything "on stage", you have to be up to it and sold on your music!!

Other than that promote your music and sing largely to the converted, is not really getting out there!!

More commercialism may be the answer, get people interested in paying good money ~ but are there enough/good enough folk musicians actually out there??

Ray

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:19 AM

Snail,

"Nobody sings in pubs these days" Admittedly it's not very common but I've been doing it for twenty years twice and three times a week.
There are probably a few publicans around that would be quite happey to have a few musical drinkers in on a quite night even if it is just to make a change from listening to the juke box/muzak that's usually on.

Whoever it was above that said that they didn't think pubs were closing must live on a different planet or not enjoy a decent pint in a decent pub.

Regarding workshops I wasn't inferring that they had no place but couldn't see how that would work at a folk club.

Finally . Who or what is Ziggy Stardust? Is that Bronson or Child or Bill Monroe? can't see it any of my books. I suspect it's something manufactured by the so-called music industry to brainwash the kiddie winkies.

Hoot

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:40 AM

OK, I withdraw my "Nobody sings in pubs these days". There are plenty of tune sessions around here although only one predominantly song session in the immediate vicinity. What I really meant was that singing isn't part of everyday pub life as it once was in the way that darts or cribbage or toad-in-the-hole and, these days, footy on the telly now are.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:40 AM

Whata a hoot Hoot.

You are pulling our plonker aren't you?

This is Ziggy Stardust

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Eeyore
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:04 AM

Maybe the problem is in the idea of "workshops" as in the first item of this thread. I must admit that when I see an item "workshop" at any festival I run like hell rather then listen to some self-appointed know-all pontificating.

I don't know how it happened, but the folk scene seems to be regarded by some as a form of education rather than entertainment - probably because the number of teachers and ex-teachers in folk clubs, who can't break the habit of telling people what to do and think.

Folk clubs should be places where you can hear a bit of music, drink a few beers and chat with your friends, in an informal atmosphere with a friendly welcome. That way we might attract some more people.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:22 AM

Jim Carroll

we don't all live in Lewes

We don't all live in Miltown Malbay either. I do live in the UKwhere I regularly got to two traditional clubs nad occasionally go to others. I meet people who go to and perform at other traditional clubs all over the country. I go to festivals where I hear more traditional music.

I am sure there are clubs where you can hear nothing but Beatles songs and teenage angst singer songwriters and Dylan wannabees band even, for all I know, Ziggy Stardust. I don't go to them because there is plenty that I want to hear elsewhere. You extrapolate from tiny scraps of evidence, some of it from Mudcat, some of it from the time 20 or 30 years ago when you were involved in running clubs and some from your rare visits to UK clubs to declare ALL folk clubs moribund and to slag off those of us who are trying to promote precisely the sort of music you admire.

So my partial answer to Dick's original question is that we should start trying to believe in and appreciate what we've got.

Merry Christmas. Try a bit of goodwill.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:23 AM

Long live acoustic pub sessions say I. I go to four a month in pubs which welcome the musicians, give us space to play and - in one case - actually pay £100 for someone to turn up and run the session! (What we actually do in the latter case is buy all the participants a drink on the session tab). We play in the bars and, in most cases, the non-session drinkers have a listen, often applaud and enjoy the music. And if it gets a little noisy in the bar, I find a chorus of Hank Williams's "Hey Good Looking, What Ya Got Cooking" (in G) soon sorts out the men from the boys...

So hurray for those pubs - and let there be many more of them. No need to worry about our village hall, by the way - it's booked every day and evening of the week with one function or another - amateur dramatic rehearsals and performances, jumbles, fairs of one sort or another, concerts, society and club meetings, local parish meetings, etc., etc.

And hurray for the clubs and their hard-working organisers as well. Let's hope they've got the determination and patience to do what they've been doing for yet another year.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:26 AM

Forgot to say in reply to Hoot's Regarding workshops I wasn't inferring that they had no place but couldn't see how that would work at a folk club. see here - Lewes Saturday Folk Club. The workshop tutor, who is someone seriously good, plays at the club in the evening.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:44 AM

What "revival" would that be then?

Merry Christmas to all.

Ian

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:46 AM

Tuesday Beginnres Tunes 29 December The Beech, Chorlton Manchester

L in C

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: autoharpbob
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:51 AM

What a great idea Lewes - get the guest to do a workshop in the daytime as well as a performance at night. And what guests!!! Martin Carthy, Shirley Collins, Boden and Spiers!!! But how do you afford that - I suppose you hope the fees from those attending covers the cost of the guest plus room hire - sounds like a risky business and something that will need even more hard work from the already overworked organisers. But I have seen nothing like that around my way - I wish!! I am reduced to paying fortunes for weekend courses like the Yucca Folk at Farncombe next Feb, and Sore Fingers at Kingham in April. Mind, I am not complaining. My original point was that far from fading out, the Folk scene around here is thriving, in pubs, in clubs and elsewhere. The problem might be that live music becomes so popular that everyone jumps on the bandwagon and dilutes the available audience too much. But then who needs an audience?

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 11:36 AM

Have a Folk Factor competition. Saturate the media.
Sal

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 11:45 AM

Pubs are the heartland of folk music. The trouble with sessions that are held in community halls etc although they can be great events, is that they are not reaching and converting the casual/accidental passing trade and potential audience and it is these people that will make the genre survive and grow. A lot of folk musicians themselves are also to blame for the pubs discontinuing folk sessions. They must remember that Pubs are businesses and have to pay wages, power, enormous rates etc and are now struggling to survive. Some people that I know walk into a pub session and ask for a glass of tap water, others will sit with a half pint or two for the whole duration, and on occasions I have seen people bring their own booze hidden in a bag. and then there's the ones that order a cup of tea/coffee. I'm not saying that we should all be rolling drunks, but let's make an effort to get the landlord's till rattling. One of my good friends falls into the cup of tea category - but he is always accompanied by two or three drinking pals, who he goes out of his way to give a lift to and from the pub session. If every single person at the folk club makes an effort to invite their friends along too, then we can only grow and prosper, as well as putting a smile on many a landlod's face up and down the country!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Aeola
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 11:52 AM

Well we tried a folk night at the local RAFA club in Formby L37 on 1st wed of Dec. It attracted about 60 people and was a great night. Hopefully the next one in Jan will be just as good!!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:07 PM

Concerts in Community or Village Halls if promoted properly do attract people who have never watched folk music before.
We have a full licence at our village hall and get between 60 to 100 people each time who spend their money over the bar. We don't have the problem of the Landlord not making enough money to survive.
We work bloody hard to make it succesful. It can be done.
The problem with a pub, is that the landlord is in charge! Yes its lovely and it has atmosphere, but so can any place.
Bear in mind we only have 300 people in the village.
We don't get any problems whatsover from rowdy, I don't want to listen to your music pubites.
Everybody that goes to our events goes for the music and enjoy the friendly atmosphere of like people enjoying the music.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: G-Force
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:16 PM

Pubs are getting too expensive. When I started going regularly to a Folk Club in 1974 the beer was 15p a pint. Now it's around 3 pounds. That's 20 times as much. My income hasn't gone up anything like that much.

The best thing that could happen to folk music is for the price of beer to come down.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:30 PM

It's worth thinking about tacking folk events on to other events. The local Greenists organised a Green Festival so I organised some songs and tunes in the afternoon and a Ceilidh in the evening. The Ceilidh was particularly successful.

Hardly a patch of ground in Manchester is without a friend. The City Council website lists 47:

Friends Groups in Manchester


I bet most urban and quite a few rural settings have Friends groups. They organise social events from time to time and a Ceilidh is a good bet. 60 people x £5 pays for the band and a raffle will pay for the room. This group then become a Folk friendly collection of people can be invited to other events.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:50 PM

15p that was extremely cheap for 1974! in my neck of the woods (London) it was averaging 25p my take home wages were about £25 pw so I could buy 100 pints! Today's average wage for the job I was doing back then (accounts clerk) is about £300pw so again I could still buy 100 pints. But I do agree £3 is a bit steep and also more people are feeling the pinch or out of work altogether these days. The pricing of beer is the fault of the crap government along with the greedy large brewers. I am involved in two sessions that are in pubs and one that is in a local sports hall all three are currentlt thriving because we get the numbers in week after week and they spend money across the bars. Although the landlords are in charge of the premises they are certainly not "in charge" of our clubs. I remember when a landlord once tried to tell one club (a very well known club in north kent) what acts to book, they just told him to get stuffed and moved into another premises a few weeks later. When starting a club at a pub you must have an agreement with the landlord on how and who runs the club. The usual thing is "you run the bar" "we run the music and club membership" If any issues come up then they are discussed by both parties. A landlord has the right to refuse entry to his premises as does any landlord of a community hall etc.

We do need music in all types of venues to be kept alive and kicking. The very people who don't turn up week after week are the same ones who will start whingeing "there's no live msic" when the clubs close!

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:58 PM

If you think beer and folk are expensive don't try to go to a Premiership football match you will die of a heart attack.

L in C

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:07 PM

60 people x £5 pays for the band

That would just about cover the caller and soundie. What would you use for music?

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: treewind
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:20 PM

Actually you could get two musicians and a caller for £300 (if you call that a band, but we do this occasionally) and you don't need a soundie for a band that small, nor does our usual 4 piece band have a sound guy.

But anyway £5 is pretty cheap for a ceilidh.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM

>>don't try to go to a Premiership football match you will die of a heart attack<<

I don't, I watch it on Sky Sports or my PC :-)

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:24 PM

Oh by the way Les, you just reminded me to watch the Arsenal Villa match on Sunday at 1:30pm (I think) assuming the gunners are gunna get rid of the snow and ice off their pitch.

Les

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:35 PM

Fair enoughski but sport on TV is like music on TV - ie not live.

We have had a couple of local bands for around £300 with caller but maybe I am a cheapskate. 80 x £5? = £400, 70 x £6 = £420.

Tacking on and seeking out friendly groups is worth exploring

L n C

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:45 PM

>>Fair enoughski but sport on TV is like music on TV - ie not live<<

No, but I couldn't afford to go to Birmingham every other week or to away games. So I have to put up with it :-)

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:11 PM

Snail:
"We don't all live in Miltown Malbay either."
Nope, you don't, but I do, and I can go out at least four nights a week and hear excellent traditional music played to a good standard within a mile from my door. Here, youngsters from around 14 years old upwards are flocking to play, I would reckon there are something between 75 to 100 of these living in the immediate area. Should I decide not to brave the elements and stay at home instead, I can listen or view on radio or television, good programmes on traditional music and song, sessions and serious documentaries, most nights of the week.
On a personal level I can be (and have been) taken seriously by regional and national art groups who will fund up to (and over) €10,000 for any responsibly applied for folk music project.
Lots more where that came from, so I'll leave it there for now.
The secret? Well, no secret really, just simple common sense. People here have realised that you are not going to be taken seriously, not attract audiences, not pass on the music to the next generation, unless you respect the music you are playing, the people you got if from, and your potential audiences, enough to make a reasonable job of what you do.
This means applying standards above "wanting to be a performer," (remind me who suggested that one) and making sure your that musicians can play their instruments well enough, and your singers can remember the words without a crib sheet, can hold a tune, and can (at the very least) give the impresson that they understand and are enjoying the songs they are singing.
Please don't tell me that non-standards are not a feature of many UK clubs - I've experienced them personally and recently, and I've read them argued for interminably on this forum, from you and from many others.
Anything less than reasonable standards is the kiss of death for folk and any music (or any other artistic or creative endevour) and an insult to the intelligence and the judgement of any potential audience.
It has also helped that if a session is described as "traditional" you are not going to have to sit though interminable and badly sung "Blues, Shanties, Kipling, Cicely Fox Smith, Music Hall, George Formby, Pop, County, Dylan, Cohen, Cash, Medieval Latin, Beatles, Irish Jigs and Reels, Scottish Strathspeys, Gospel, Rock, Classical Guitar, Native American Chants, Operatic Arias and even the occasional Traditional Song and Ballad", as was proposed on this forum as a definition for folk music not too long ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:03 PM

Well said, that man !

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 06:34 PM

Jim, your interminable denigration of Folk clubs is tedious.
you live in County Clare, How many UK folk clubs have you visited in the last year?
you are like a 78 rpm with the needle stuck in a groove.

Subject: RE: the UK folk revival in 2010
From: Old Vermin
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:44 PM

Humbly beg to report, Private Schweik, that you really could have put that more tactfully.