Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:07 AM

Grab me a Castignari while you're there, Ralph. It's okay, I'm just sampling to see if I like it. I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so that makes it all right.


Hey Sweeney (or Spinachy O'Popeye, as one of my friends likes to call you): pop into the restaurant where Jim works and tell him that people defending his right to be paid for his music is righteous, middle class hysteria. Have a coffee - but don't forget to pay for it, and at least leave him a decent tip.


(Actually, I don't think Jim does work as a waiter anymore - I'm just illustrating a point.)

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:21 AM

Which would you rather have: a beautiful re-issue artefact with best possible sound, notes, and maybe some income to the artist of their family, or crap dubs from badly pressed vinyl as a file on your computer or a handwritten CDR?

In an ideal world, of course; but the world is far from ideal, or yet even idyllic, though you'd hardly think so hanging around here. Still, one might at least dream of a deluxe edition of And Now it is So Early, with full restored artwork & complete with extra tracks all lovingly remastered from the original wax-cylinder recordings. Maybe that's what still draws me to Folk - the re-Imagined Village as virtual bucolic utopia, just like those old Shirley Collins album sleeves would have had us believe; and even unto this day might I warm the cockles in the nostalgic glow of the VOTP CD graphics. Anyhoo, whatever misgivings as might exist over your back-catalogue, methinks you might draw some comfort at least from the fact that you never stooped so low as THIS.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:28 AM

Oh, I don't think that's true. Artists with relatively modest sales / airplay have affirmed many a time on this site that royalties paid out easily exceed the PRS membership fee. And there's the dded benefit of being a member of an organisation that fights for musicians' rights.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:31 AM

I was replying above to someone who was saying PRS membership (which you need to collect royalties) wasn't worth it. It's vanished.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:34 AM

I can't help noticing that those advocating free downloads are very quick to assume that those of us who are pointing out why it's a bad idea are righteously hysterical, weeping, moaning, feeling hard done by etc. I'm none of those things. I'm just plain irritated that people who are supposedly enthusiastic supporters of other musicians in the same minority genre are throwing so much dust in the air about this issue.
Ralphie has it right - we're talking about theft. It's not big, it's not clever and it's not helpful.
I was told by Lizardson that being featured on his blog would mean more sales - not true. I've also been told (by a poster on his blog) that protesting about his inclusion of the Anonyma album would mean some lost sales. Who knows? The fact remains - it's a copyright piece and it is illegal to offer it for free download without permission from the copyright holder.
As to the folk revival and wholesale plundering ...oh, purlease! Even if you had a point there, two wrongs don't make a right. However, my recordings have nothing to do with plunderings, nor do Bob Pegg's. In fact, I'm not sure whose do, but I'm sure you'll make a point of telling us in order to throw yet more dust in the air.
Please, Suibhne, give me one good reason why it's OK for a blogger to give away something that doesn't belong to him without bothering to contact the owner of the copyright in question. I haven't heard one yet.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:57 AM

Oh, I don't think that's true. Artists with relatively modest sales / airplay have affirmed many a time on this site that royalties paid out easily exceed the PRS membership fee. And there's the dded benefit of being a member of an organisation that fights for musicians' rights.

You were replying to something I posted.

Fighting for musicians rights. Fighting for the rights and interests of the big names some would say. You will also have seen the many complaints on this site of the organisations harassing pubowners for money because they allow a session on their premises, that's another side of the story.

As with the whole download issue, it's a multi faceted thing. There's no black and white but loads of shades of grey that are part of the equation. I know a lot of musicians who do not feel membership is beneficial to them and I feel the same way (some other issues around the Irish Music Rights Organisation entered my considerations but those are not relevant to this discussion).

Bottom line of it all is whether you look upon music as just another commodity or choose to cut it all a bit of slack in order to let people enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:00 AM

(Actually, I don't think Jim does work as a waiter anymore - I'm just illustrating a point.)

Not very well I must say, Ruth - and still ever so slightly hysterical, if indeed hysteria would have pinching finely crafted Italian accordions, CD-hard copy & cups of coffee as being in the same criminal league as downloading a digital duplication of something you A) wouldn't have bought anyway or B) couldn't buy on account of it being long unavailable. As I say, Jim Causley fans would never stoop so low as to break the law; his is tidy, well-ordered musical MOR blandness for the well-behaved Folk Fan insider for whom the lawlessness of the feral wilderness is anathema*.

Spinachy O'Popeye (who loves spinach!)

* This assessment based on Jim's Rolling of the Stones currently playing on his MySpace page - though I had to switch off at the instrumental break at 1.35 on account of consequent nausea. More spinach I think...

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:49 AM

Here's a rundown of performance right societies and royalty collection organisations so everybody can work out for themselves whether or not it's worth joining.

And here is a current discussion on this forum regarding PRS

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:57 AM

Spinachy, never confuse facetiousness with hysteria.

I think it is unfortunate that you choose to have a nasty and unwarranted pop at one of the finest young singers on the current folk scene - and why? Because you want people to have the right to steal his music? I'm confused. And you certainly do your cause no favours with such petty outbursts.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:06 AM

The illustration of Jim Causley in waiting mode illustrated the point vividly for me. It's because musicians have precious few safeguards to what income they can garner from their art that they often have to resort to rubbish jobs to make ends meet. However, to describe nastily his work as "tidy, well-ordered musical MOR blandness" because he has objected to his CD being pirated is not only being mean to a fellow musician but patently inaccurate.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:26 AM

SO'P.
Fine. Carry on stealing then. nobody can stop you, so it seems.
Steal my work (If you can find any).You probably wouldn't like it anyway.
Oh and to be pedantic, It's a finely crafted Italian Melodeon, not Accordian.
Ralph.
Oh, and can we keep personalities out of this conversation?
Various artists who are just trying to make an honest living have been named (and abused IMHO)
Desist.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:32 AM

Hardly petty, Ruth - I thought it a pretty fair assessment myself for the purposes of establishing the simple fact that anyone given to listening to stuff like that would never stoop so low as to pinch it. You'd have to be a better person to appreciate such music, a superior sort of person indeed, one who still believes in C#'s vision of moral betterment through Folk Song. I think, perhaps, in the music of Jim Causeley (at least the 90-seconds of it I could bear to listen to) C#'s vision might, at last, have been realised. The music has been heartily plundered & torn from its once vibrant source; stacked and dried it can now be reappraised by a younger generation carefully selected for their bland middle-class muso slickness - everything, in fact, that The Tradition never was. Sad really - certainly a lot sadder than a few free random downloads...

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:35 AM

"Oh, and can we keep personalities out of this conversation?"

Actually, Ralph, that's part of the problem. Downloaders forget that there are real people behind this music, who are just trying to earn a living. It's okay, they're not real people: they're an article in a magazine or a picture on a CD cover. Downloading their music for free isn't the same as nicking ten quid from their pockets.

Right?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:40 AM

Spinachy, the 90 seconds you managed of Jim is at least 60 seconds more than I've ever managed of your "music" - the tradition which, I can assure you, never will be. I think anyone stealing anything you've recorded is the least of your worries - finding anyone you could give it away to might even prove a challenge.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:51 AM

It's because musicians have precious few safeguards to what income they can garner from their art that they often have to resort to rubbish jobs to make ends meet.

No one owes anyone a living, surely? How many Folk Musicians do you know who actually make a living out of it? The real stuff, I find, isn't born from those sort of considerations anyway; the real stuff is what people do & have always done - very seldom does it ever get recorded, let alone pirated.

However, to describe nastily his work as "tidy, well-ordered musical MOR blandness" because he has objected to his CD being pirated is not only being mean to a fellow musician but patently inaccurate.

I described his music as tidy, well-ordered musical MOR blandness because that's precisely what it is. There is nothing nasty in me saying this, nor yet do I think he should roll over and allow his music to be pirated if he can stop it. The point of this thread was to alert the Mudcat Community to one very fine old LP which they could get a shot at hearing. Typically, it heads off into realms of the surreal. I hadn't even heard of Jim Causeley before today.

Oh and to be pedantic, It's a finely crafted Italian Melodeon, not Accordian.

http://castagnari.trad.org/index.en.html

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Folknacious
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:51 AM

Another fine Mudcat mess, collapsed into insulting artists who have done nothing to deserve it. I.A.A. had better check Ebay too, if its the one I think he means theres another just appeared, currently only 9 dollars but it has 5 days to run. He may want to remove the thing from public consumption by the sound of it, though the seller seems to think it's "Progressive & Art Rock" and "Gorgeous". No accounting for tastes!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:01 AM

"No one owes anyone a living, surely? How many Folk Musicians do you know who actually make a living out of it?"

Well, a few more of them might be a bit closer to earning a living from their music if people like you weren't stealing from them. Bloody hell, is that so hard to understand?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM

hi everyone

Happy New Year

I have read with interest the various views on this thread.

Can I say that my wife is a professional photographer and we have been here before....a sort of deja vu for us. I will add before it gets too confusing, I mean with pictures NOT music.

But the princple ( if not the practice)is the same.

Clearly in both cases stealing someone else's work and selling for profit is not only immoral it is illegal.

However in the case of my wife it was many years ago when the Internet was new and policing was conspicuous by it's absence.

Photographers like my wife were naive to what could happen to their work.

The problem then was that they had to first of all prove in court that anyone copying something displayed on the web was illegal, and this took years to prove through the courts. I will say here that the American law was more severe on this than our own British one and we lagged behind more than somewhat.

Finally it was proved and accepted that photographs are intellectual property and although the picture might be published it still remains the property of the photographer.

I will say that this is a very simple explaination of a very complex and convoluted process.

So there is no doubt at all that downloading without permission of the legal owner of the property is a crime.

But ...........the tortuous and costly route to this has made not one jot of difference in all but a very few cases.

There are a numbers of reasons which simplified are :-

1. It is difficult to trace the perpetrators
2. Few lawyers find it attractive
3. It is hugely expensive for the claimant.

There is really no protection from the law that is financially satisfactory for struggling photographers and musicians.

It is a moral situation - you either choose not to do it or you contact the rightful owner and ask permission.

Obviously in my own postion it is clear where I stand.

But as someone has already said above, the real position is not as black or white as I have had to portray it. There are many shades of grey that cloud the issue.

One thing is certain though.....it will continue and if anything get worse.

Cheers

MikeL

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:49 AM

if people like you weren't stealing from them

Let's stick to the facts here. I am not stealing anything, nor yet am I advocating theft. If I want an album, I go out & buy it; if it is a passing curiosity lifted from the dark mists of near archaeological obscurity (as in the case of And Now it is So Early - which I hadn't even heard of until a fellow Mudcatter brought my attention to it) I will download it in the same spirit in which it has been uploaded. Be sure, if I ever I saw And Now it is So Early in Oxfam I would pay good money for it - as I often do with such cultural treasures - but I think the chances of that ever happening are about as remote as some enterprising label reissuing it on CD. Is it still theft in your book, Ruth? Should we just walk on by least we dirty our ears with such tainted music? Or, for the love of such a beautiful & unholy racket do we give thanks that we have a chance to hear it at all? Because one thing's for sure, you will never hear its like in today's climate of bland corporate Folk aestheticism. Like I say, no one is losing out here - and, more to the point, no one is gaining anything either, other than the opportunity to hear something wonderful that they wouldn't otherwise have heard.

The issue of otherwise available albums is something very different but I will say that I do firmly believe those of the Folk Mindset would never do such a thing because the consequent guilt would destroy them. In the past, friends would sent me cassettes of their favourite albums; these days they might send me a blog link. If I do choose to download the album - and it's a big if - and I like it (an even bigger if) - I will then go out and buy it, just as I bought the albums I liked from the cassette copies of yore, so I might appreciate them in their full glory - cover and all. God knows the amount of music I've bought from such recommendations and long may it continue to be so!

People share their passions, and sharing music is part of that exchange; broadband internet makes the sharing easier, especially in the context of personal networking. It's a fact of life, and a fascinating aspect of folklore to boot. One can but wonder how analogous this is to The Folk Process - people copying songs from other singers and broadsheet sources and singing them on in the days before recording technology made copyright & ownership an issue thereby making music into the commodity that it is today. As Peter says, music is so much more than a commodity - it certainly didn't start as a commodity, nor yet does it affect us as a commodity; music is a vivid dimension of our natural born spirituality - it carries meaning that transcends the commonplace & the mundane, and if people hear something they are moved by it is pretty instinctive to wish to spread the word, which is all, I think, that is happening here.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:56 AM

So'P
OK then. Please leave all yout banking details, Pin Numbers, Sort code etc. here, and we'll all help ourselves to a tenner a week...
Sounds fair to me.
After all. It's the same thing as you are advocating.
So, Hey, Why not!
All property is theft after all.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:10 AM

Sorry So'P
Cross posted.
Obscure recordings that have vanished out of site are one thing. and maybe making them available is a good thing (Citing IAA's comments re old Blues recordings further up the thread)
Bootlegging new CD's of artists that are currently available for sale is definitely a No No.
Many artists provide 30 second snippets of their work on their own web sites, to attract the passing surfer. Surely that is enough for anyone to get an idea of who is doing what, without putting up the whole damn CD?
A taster is a brilliant idea, and I have brought many a CD after hearing a few clips on You Tube or whatever. Nowt wrong with that. Good marketing.
But....to have some third party anonymous website, uploading entire recordings is just plain wrong.
However much I wanted that very rare LP from 1950 or whenever. I'd find it via legitimate means.
And I've been very good and not even mentioned Nic Jones. Have a Gold Star!

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

Yes photographs, I was thinking of that before too. Google image search is a great friend of the concert organiser looking for a shot of an artist for his advertising or the newspaper editor looking for a shot to go with an obituary of a traditional musician.

I have had photographs used without permission in situations like the above despite clear copyright notices. A nice shot of fiddler Joe Ryan taking the cake when appearing in several UK based publications and an Irish American one.

But there too it's not all Black and White. I have a policy of asking people who have already used photographs on websites without asking permission to remove them. But then again, if nobody sees them, they may as well not exist. So there's a sliding scale there too.

Was asked earlier today if I could supply photographs to illustrate a CD booklet for a re-issue of 78 rpms by William Mullally that ITMA is producing. At least a fee was offered 'if required' but would I have refused if there wasn't? There's always a give and take that also applies to music, there's no the need to squeeze it for every penny you can get. But either way, it's to the owner to decide and only to the owner.

For those interested: Traditional Musicians of Clare Calendar a fundraising project.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

Clearly in both cases stealing someone else's work and selling for profit is not only immoral it is illegal.

No one's making any money here though, they're just sharing music. The issue appears to be what impact, if any, this has on subsequent sales of Folk Product. Of course when the album in question is no longer available for sale the issue becomes just a matter of theoretical hysteria - and name calling, begad! Nice one, Joanie.

After all. It's the same thing as you are advocating.

What utter bullshit, Ralphie - as you'd realise if you actually bothered to read what I've said here. I'm not actually advocating anything, just giving fair account of, what is, after all, common cultural practise. Can there be anyone here who does not own a cassette copy, CD-R or MP3 of music they have not actually paid for?

On second thoughts, don't answer that - sounds too much like an invitation for the Avenging Folk Angels to descend in a blinding light of Holy Righteous & Infallible Innocence and, to be honest, I don't think my rods & cones could stand the glare...

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:24 AM

Spinachy:

There are a number of issues here. Firstly, you say you would download something "in the same spirit in which it had been uploaded". Well, the point I've been trying to make is that I'm not sure I like the spirit in which many of these albums have been uploaded, and in particular, I think the the initial site that you linked to is very dodgy indeed. It is all very well to say that this music is being uploaded in the spirit of selflessness and sharing - but it is not the property of the person doing the sharing in the first place, and it is not in his gift to share it. Someone suggested earlier a very simple process that would remove all of the moral ambiguity: contact the musicians or the label. Get permission to upload the music. If they say no, respect that decision. What is subsequently available on line might be a smaller selection of music, but you can then enjoy it with a clear conscience.

One of the people whose music has appeared illegally on the Time Has Told Me website - and I've come across quite a few of them in the past 24 hours - made a point which has been reiterated several times here: there is a big difference between lending your friend an album or a CD and uploading an album onto the net for anyone and everyone to take as they please. A number of folk artists I've spoken to feel that downloading has had a substantial impact on their album sales, and consequently their ability to make a living from their music. They have seen certain trends which support the theory that downloading is the culprit, and I believe them. I've been told about people walking up to bands and tour managers and asking where they can download the music for free, and not understanding why the bands get cross. One response: "But I'm a student!"

So I'm afraid this idea that folkies are too moral to take something when it's presented for free doesn't really wash. It's happening.

In the case of albums still in copyright, they should never be uploaded onto sites like Time Has Told Me in the first place. The owners should be far more scrupulous, especially about recent releases. The onus should not be on the bands to discover for themselves that their music has been stolen. The site should immediately respond to any take-down requests, and remove any subsequent posts of the same material by contributors. And regardless of the rare gems that they may make available that you really, really would love to have, no one who has any respect for working musicians should support or publicise this site and others like it. It's a matter of principle.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:38 AM

I find myself in agreement with Ian Anderson.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:40 AM

It's a matter of principle.

Like I said below, Joan - I don't think my rods & cones can stand the glare of your holy righteousness! But a nice post all the same, even if you do persist in missing the point by several broad & not-so-merry country miles.

Eleven pipers piping, etc.

S O'P.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:04 PM

Having being alerted to some 'Reynardine' activity by a good friend, we emailed with a well-reasoned argument as to why they (he? she? them?) should at the very least have had the courtesy to ask for permission from the (easily contactable) living artists - and the items were taken down.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:24 PM

At least this site does appear to respond to requests to take down albums. However, the point is that it should not be up to the artists to complain. The website does not have the right to put the stuff up on the first place. It is not theirs to give away, whether or not a charge is being made.

I had never heard of this website until SOP drew it to our attention. Fortunately the album I made with the Electropathics isn't there (I'm not sure whether to be relieved or offended). How many other similar sites are there which we're now going to have to check to make sure there isn't a dodgy copy being offered? The onus shouldn't be on us, it should be on the website to get permission.

If an album has been unavailable for some time and a website has made a reasonable effort to contact the copyright owner for permission without success, then I accept that there may be a public interest argument for making the album available. However there is no excuse for putting up current or recent albums, especially where either the artist or record label are still in business.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM

I am still in business.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:31 PM

However much I wanted that very rare LP from 1950 or whenever. I'd find it via legitimate means.
And I've been very good and not even mentioned Nic Jones.

I think you should mention Nic Jones, Ralphie - the scandalous non-availability of at least two of his Leader/Trailer albums, by any means other than borrowing/sharing, is very much to the point here.

Put it another way, what are the "legitimate means" you'd suggest for finding a copy of From the Devil to a stranger?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: zozimus
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 12:44 PM

It has been mentioned that artists do not have the right to re-issue their oldies, as some record company holds the rights. The music industries biggest selling CD of all time is a blank one, encouraging people to copy or "rob" what they consider uncomercially viable to re-issue. We now have "state of the art" record-players with usb connections and all the software to copy from our old vinyl pushed upon us. If you think anyone who has purchased this equipment is going to obey the rules and just make a copy for the car, you are not living in the real world.
Many musicians, again thanks to advanced technology, can now make there own CDs at home, and sell them   at gigs or over the internet, having complete control over royalties,copyright etc.
Are such musicians doing better than those who sold their rights to record companies?
Many collectors or enthusiests chasing after these lost unavailable "treasures" , and downloading them for free because the are not been re-issued, are into nostalgia and hero worship that musicians should be proud of. They already have bought the available stuff. The main reason they are not being re-issued is because they are'nt really great. Through previous similiar threads I purchased 2 Nic Jones CDs. Nice stuff but not a good as I was led to believe from the postings of his many fans, In other words, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM

Not as good as you were led to believe

So, did you get them from Mollie Music or did you opt for some dubious CD-Rs from Celtic? I imagine Nic Jones would like to know when calculating his royalties (or absence thereof).

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Anne Lister
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

Dear Zozimus
People have had the facility for years to copy recordings they've bought or borrowed. As to the copying of vinyl - again, bootleg copies were around way before the advent of USBs, MP3s and the whole shebang. It is now, as it was then, illegal. I have all the equipment I might need (as one day I might finally get around to putting my vinyl collection onto my iPod). However, I cannot legally make CD copies of the vinyl Anonyma album and sell them - and so, surprising as it may seem to you and Suibhne, I don't.
I am getting tired of the suggestion that we all behave the same way. I don't claim to wear a halo, but I personally don't make illegal copies of music for resale (or gift, come to that) or upload or download music I have no rights to. That's the choice I've made in this situation - I suppose I have a vain hope still of "Do as you would be done by" as an operating system.
Years ago I remember attending a party where a good friend brandished a wrapped gift she'd brought for the person whose birthday we were celebrating. "Guess what it is?" she said. "I made her a copy of your album. I knew she'd like it." She didn't understand why I wasn't pleased and flattered, but then she hadn't paid for the studio costs and manufacturing costs of the album in the first place, which I was still recouping with sales. And that was well before uploading was even a twinkle in anyone's eye, but the issue is exactly the same one - except now the joyful givers of other people's music don't know how many people might be receiving it, don't care and still don't understand why we're not pleased and flattered.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM

We now have "state of the art" record-players with usb connections and all the software to copy from our old vinyl pushed upon us.

My wife bought me one of these USB turntables for my birthday with the intention of getting some priceless vinyl onto CD-R, but six months on & all it's done is re-awakened my love of playing vinyl. Not one transfer, but many happy hours enjoying some of the most wonderful vinyl ever pressed - Codex Gluteo by Atrium Musicae de Madrid, Versalii Icones by Peter Maxwell Davies & the Fires of London, Bonny Bunch of Roses by Seamus Ennis, The Singing Molecatcher of Morayshire by John MacDonald, Won't You Go My Way? by Peter Bellamy, Times & Traditions for Dulcimer by Roger Nicolson, Jake Walton & Andrew Cronshaw, an original yellow label Bakey copy of the first Backdoor album... I dare say some of this has made it onto CD, but I'm sure the music loses its soul in the process. My dream remains to spin a vinyl copy of And Now it is So Early...

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

We got one of those things and I haven't even figured out how use it!   But I still have a roomful of vinyl. And a manual lawnmover. And an old, cast-iron hot smoker. And . . . oh, you get the idea.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Ian Anderson
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:39 PM

I dare say some of this has made it onto CD, but I'm sure the music loses its soul in the process.

Unlike the very early years of CD, no. My recent experiences of going back to original master tapes in a good studio and mastering for CD is that for the first time I hear on CD how it sounded in the original studio. I'd forgotten how good some of my guitars sounded back then. A good example is the recent Hux re-issue of Dr Strangely Strange's Kip Of The Serenes compared with the dog's breakfast Island made of the CD version a decade or so back. Helps if the artist or original producer is involved, mind you.

On the other hand, some lowlife eejit plugging a cheap USB turntable into a PC and making shit dubs of a dubious vinyl pressing and then posting the result on the web as compressed mp3s for people to steal does nobody any good, even the thieves, but especially the music.

You just don't get it, do you?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:05 PM

A good example is the recent Hux re-issue of Dr Strangely Strange's Kip Of The Serenes compared with the dog's breakfast Island made of the CD version a decade or so back.

They mastered it at the wrong speed didn't they? But I agree, the Hux edition is an exemplary piece of work (though I was tempted to spin the vinyl on New Years Eve for Auld Lang Syne); better still though, was the Hux Halcyon Days retro which was a real eye-opener and a fine document besides. I've got a CD of Heavy Petting which sounds great, does its best to replicate the original cover in miniature but misspells the Tims as Jims! What you don't get, is the hypnotic effect of the original Vertigo label, much less a surface area on which to skin up a decent spliff...

So I get it just fine, Ian - but in the case of And Now it is So Early (and the Third Ear rarities I linked to) what are the alternatives?

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:20 PM

To Anne Lister,
Thanks for the link to Mollie Music, I wasn't aware of it. I bought the 2 Nic Jones CDs from a legal download site, e-music.com. I believe the artists get the same cut from these sales as they do from CDs. If artists cannot get there music re-issued as CDs, there is always this option.
The point I was making about the music industry encouraging copying was to demonstrate that the music industry looks after itself, sometimes depriving artists by refusing to re-issue, and also depriving collectors and fans. by turning them into criminals.
There is a long history of artists being mistreated by record companies, but yet they can't resist the temptation of signing up, instead of going D.I.Y. In folk music in particular, most collectors are looking for songs, not a snazzy overproduced studio masterpiece.
To people who have lately taken an interest in folk music, and who read threads like this and learn about heroes of the past and out-of-print albums that they must hear, what do you suggest they do?
I would imagine most fo those who find fault with downloading already have copies of the these so-called goodies.
                                    Zozimus

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:30 PM

Ta for the 3rd Ear link, Sweeney.
They don't write 'em like that any more.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:55 PM

Zozimus.
You may well have bought downloads of the first 2 Nic Jones LPs from e-music.com (whoever they are).
If they are a reputable company (and I'm sure they are) They would have done a deal with Celtic Music. A certain Mr Bulmer, who owns all the rights to the 4 lost Nic Jones LP's (Oh, and about 150 other titles that are squirelled away somewhere)
You'd have to check with Mollie Music, but, it's highly unlikely that the family have received a brass farthing fom the sale.
I don't know what you paid for them, don't really care, but anything you may have paid will have been split between the download site, and Celtic Music. Not the artist.
All absolutely legal. You have done no wrong, neither has e-music.com, and neither has Celtic music.
Where does that leave the artist, who was critically injured at the height of his fame, nearly 30 years ago, and has been denied many, perhaps tens of thousands of pounds in royalty income in the intervening years?
Legally right...absolutely....Morally.......Well thats up to you, I know where I stand.
Pip.
You can't legitimately get new copies of Noahs Ark and Devil. is all.
You might find second hand vinyl on E Bay, which, is fair enough.
Or Bandoggs, Tony Rose, Pete and Chris Coe, Dick Gaughan, Vin Garbutt, even Mike Harding!

Until the whole sorry saga of Celtic Music is resolved. These lost LPs (along with all the other titles....go to the MusTrad database and search for Leader/Trailer. Pages of the stuff) will remain locked away.

I see no resolution to that problem in the near future. and maybe not in my lifetime. It would be too late for Tony Rose anyway now.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:29 AM

In the context of this discussion, the Celtic Music situation is a bit of a red herring (and it's been discussed at immense length). Much as we all dislike the situation, Celtic Music owns the copyright and is entitled to do what it wants. Personally, I find Mr Bulmer's behaviour in refusing to re-release these albums bizarre - this is not a record company with some long-forgotten items in its vaults, these are the gems of his collection for which there is undoubtedly a demand. But they're his property, and it's his choice.

In these circumstances I suspect many of us would see little wrong MORALLY in making these albums available for download. But it would still be wrong legally, and you could expect Celtic Music to take swift action. Besides, putting them on the particular website under discussion for free download would still not help Nic and the other artists.

There's no getting away from the fact that copying has gone on for decades. The difference now is the scale. Whilst legally there is no difference between putting an album on the internet and copying it for a mate, the practical difference is immense. Taking one or two copies for friends has negligible impact compared with making it available for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people to download.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:16 AM

Hi Howard.
My point exactly. It's the sheer potential scale of downloading that's the problem.
If I did a copy of Noahs Ark Trap for you to listen to. it's hardly a hanging offence. I would have paid for the original LP years ago, Nic would have had his slice (probably about 25p!), and you can't buy it for yourself today even if you wanted to.
But, making it available for free as a download.....very different kettle of fish.
For many years the only official NJ LP/CD available was Penguin Eggs (on Topic). Year after year it was in the top 10 selling list, and quite honestly, the income made a huge difference to Nic and the family. Imagine what he might have earned if the other 4 LPs had been available.
It's all immaterial anyway, I can't see Celtic Music being that philanthropic to just give his vast collection away for nothing, can you?!

And it's not too late. Look how well these lavish box sets of, Sandy Denny, June Tabor, Fairport, Thompson do...
I'm sure that one of the bigger Folk labels would love to be able to do a similar project for Nic. including the Bandoggs stuff, and there are still a few other bits and bobs lying around, not enough for a solo CD, but as a bonus CD in a set.

My twopennorth

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:59 AM

They don't write 'em like that any more.

Ain't that the truth, Smokey! There is a small but dedicated enclave of on-line Third Ear Band fanatics beavering away - the Facebook site is worth a look for some nice scans of old International Times features & links to other stuff. Then there's You Tube, where several people have even made fan vids using old session tracks - myself included: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfj0oOv240M.

Hasn't been much emerged for a while though, despite the amount of radio sessions known to be still extant. Some pure gold in there though - one of my favourites being New Forecasts from the Third Ear Almanac recorded in January 1989 with Ursula Smith on violin - see HERE for the cover of original cassette release.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:08 AM

We can but dream: Clitheroe Pop Festival, June 1970

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:12 AM

Ralphie - the Nic Jones albums available on emusic (and iTunes) are _Penguin Eggs_ and _Game Set Match_, so it must have been one of those that Zozimus was unimpressed by.

But the Celtic Music story is (I'm afraid) highly relevant here. A while back, not knowing the background, I bought a CD of _Ballads and songs_; I was disappointed in the quality of the packaging and the CD itself, but I thought that paying money for the CD rather than seeking out a download was the right thing to do. (The problem with the CD isn't the sound but compatibility - it won't play on older machines, presumably because it's actually a CD-R.)

Then I discovered that none of the money I'd paid would go to Nic, or indeed to anyone who'd had anything to do with making the record. Mr Bulmer has also re-released _Nic Jones_, but when I discovered a site offering downloads of that album I didn't hesitate. I really don't think that paying Celtic Music for a shonky CD-R is morally superior to downloading a bootleg, or copying a cassette (thanks to the Catter who lent me a NJ cassette 18 months ago, by the way!). In all of those cases I'm acquiring an album without paying royalties to the artist.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:52 AM

As download outfits go, E-Music is (a) reputable and (b) not free. You can be quite certain that Topic wouldn't be letting them market their product without all legal safeguards in place with regard to firstly own their profits and (b) income due to Nic Jones. If Zozimus didn't like Game Set Match and Penguin Eggs, tough but at least they were paid for.

There are two other Nic Jones CDs still (as far as I know) legally available, the independently-produced In Search Of and Unearthed and it is a disgrace that they remain up on THTM despite innumerable pleas to remove them.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:05 AM

I'm not a fan of THTM - I've seen some very ungracious & unco-operative responses to completely reasonable take-down requests (often for material that they should have known not to put up in the first place).

However, I've just had a trawl through THTM, and neither ISONJ nor Unearthed is currently up there, as far as I can tell. I also couldn't see a download link for _Burnt Feathers_, or for Dick's album.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM

They're there, as well as two "Lost In Harrogate" ones but I'm not posting the link. That would only encourage cheapskates to go and steal them.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:31 AM

Hmm. I could see posts about those albums (plus Anonyma's and Dick's), but not actual download links - and I did look. Ditto for two Harrogated NJ albums, which have been up on THTM in the past but don't appear to be now.

Subject: RE: Free Rare Old Folk Album Downloads
From: Surreysinger
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:06 AM

I just had a look - and am equally well not posting any link .... but I was also not able to find a live download link to either Unearthed or ISONJ still live, or indeed the two Lost items on that particular site (although somebody seems to have posted a link to an alternative blog site only a couple of weeks ago). Some of the argument for and against the recordings being up on site sounds remarkably similar to that here, and the self justification is equally reprehensible.