Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 05:53 AM

Some one asks the question,
. "But I am finding, through painful experience, that there are some songs that are apparently on a "banned" list? "
Lots of people jump on and say that songs A to Z are banned.
Very few people take the time to quantify their views with " just in my club"
There have been several people who have disagreed that any songs should be banned

This is a nice one from earlier.
"My goodness, some of the posts here highlight the sort of people I would not wish to see at a folk club, who clearly have their own set of rules in their beards and pint mugs. "
MArje,
I am answering the question- It disagrees with what you think- I think it's ok to sing songs even though they've been heard a million times before. Everyone has to start somewhere. As someone else said.
" These are the songs that people cut their teeth on"

Glad you agree with Jim . As Jim Carrol said earlier
"There should NEVER be a 'banned list' of folk songs in folk clubs, if the repertoir works for you sing it, and when the village idiots start popping their cheeks during 'Larks', tell them to piss off."

I'm out of this thread....
Peter

Peter

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,LTS on the sofa
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:50 AM

I'm in hysterics!! Just clicked on this to see how it was progressing and the random shuffle on the music system has just thrown up 'Rolling Home' followed by Rolf Harris's version of 'Wild Rover'!!!

Sometimes the chaos theory of randomness in the universe isn't quite as random as we'd like!

LTS

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 12:31 PM

...could even result in Max Bygraves' version of "Pinball Wizard".

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM

IMHO, although I would not sing "This Land" as it sounds too American for my taste, if it is to be done it should be done as it was written, and it is a useful and international song about the theft of land by capitalism.

There are not enough songs about the land grab in England that was effected by the Inclosure Acts. although there is a nice short poem

"Tis bad enough in man or woman
To steal a goose from off the common
But surely he's without excuse
Who steals the common from the goose".

One of Bishop Gundulf's Morris's care in the community candidates sings "Drunken Sailor" (his repertoire is about 3 songs) and it's one of the things that has put me off it.

Time will restore most of the "sung to death" songs. Once upon a time "Dives and Lazarus" was sung (usually badly) to death but now it is a comparative rarity, and worth doing, particularly if well accompanied.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM

Apropos of nothing Richard, wonder if you or anybody could confirm the genuineness of the extra verses of the rhyme you quoted;

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common,
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from off the goose.

The law demands that we atone
When we take things we do not own,
But leaves the lords and ladies fine
Who take things that are yours and mine.

The poor and wretched don't escape
If they conspire the law to break;
This must be so, but they endure
Those who conspire to make the law.

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common,
And geese will still a common lack
Till they go and steal it back.

Jim Carroll
PS Bishop Gundulf - wasn't he the wizard in Lord of the Rings.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 08:00 PM

"Dives and Lazarus"
An afterthought,

Oh there once was a Jew and he lived in Jerusalem,
Glory, Hallelujah, Rye Roger-um,
An ancient descendant of the Patriarch Methusalum,
Glory, Hallelujah, Rye Roger-um.
Rye Roger-um, Rye Roger-um,

Chorus
Skin of a Yankee Doodle-um, skin of a Yankee Doodle-um,
Glory, Hallelujah, Rye Roger-um.
(Burden similar in every verse,)

Now there was a poor man whose name was Lazorium,
He lay by the gates and the dogs licked his soreium.

Oh the poor man he died about half-past eleven-um
And before twelve 'o clock he was dining up in Heaven-um.

The rich man he died, but he didn't fare so wellium,
For an angel in state, sure, he took him down to Hellium.

Oh, the rich man he called for some water in a bowlium,
For he found that heat had begun to discommodeium.

The rich man he called for a whiskey and a sodium,
But the Devil let a roar, saying: "Shovel on more coalium!"

The rich man he called for a custard and a jellyum,
But he had to go away with a very empty bellyum.

As I said earlier - it's always worth looking round for another version if you feel the one you've got is overdone.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 08:00 AM

In answer to Jim's question about The Goose and the Common, this version is recorded on The Claque's excellent CD Sounding Now.
The insert says,

'The late Martin Bloomer took the well-known late mediaeval verse, added a chorus, tunes and extra stanzas to make THE GOOSE AND THE COMMON, a song from the time of the early enclosures of common land to accommodate sheep. The last verse has a lesson for societies that accept their bad lot blindly and advocates fighting back.'

These four use magnificent, almost dangerous, unaccompanied vocal harmony and are the one of the best acts I've heard in many years.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 08:11 AM

Thanks for that Valmai
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 08:28 AM

It was in a book of poetry used at my school. You will not find it surprising that I seem to have no copy now nor details.

The Claque are indeed excellent but compared to some of the harmony shanty crews somewhat restrained.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,AW
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 09:23 AM

Intersting comments about pinching the guest's songs when they appear at a club. Not always that straight forward . .
If you have never seen a particular artist before, nor purchased their latest album, can you be forgiven for inadvertently singing a traditional song that by coincidence turns about to be their party piece?
People tend to support their local clubs regardless of who the guest may be. I have certainly attended several nights in the last year where the guest was 'new' to me. Excellent nights most of them have been too. I'd like to apologise here if I have sung a song I shouldn't have. But I suspect that most of said artists have a sufficiently broad repertoire to be able to adapt their set!
And there is no reason for a guest to suppose that a traditional song sung by a floorsinger comes from that guest's own recording. Many a lesser singer will have learned their songs from the same limited sources as the guest. Hence the similarities.

I guess it is always unfortunate when the situation occurs. Possibly uncomfortable for the rest of the audience too, who may know the score. But it shouldn't be always assumed that there was a deliberately undermining choice made.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM

I see the name calling/cyber bullying has started again.

Bishop Gundulf are a fine morris side. They dance, run one of the biggest childrens sides in the country, get asked to perform in pubs and raise a lot of money for charity. They dont need childish name calling. It gives sites like this and all who use them a bad name.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:35 PM

"They dont need childish name calling."
A joke - albeit a poor one, but hardly bullying, surely?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

Its not the first time this has happened from this person, Jim. All derogatory name calling is a form of bullying and adults should know better. If Brian was to see this he would be very upset.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM

I will at present put it no higher than that Flora has not for some time, longer than I indeed, been a member of BG, it is really entirely none of her business. I will not at present go into other matters of conduct.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:50 PM

"Its not the first time this has happened from this person, Jim."
Sorry Flora; I thought it was my feeble joke about Gandalf you were referring to - whew!
I do tend to go off at a tangent sometimes, especially after a night celebratingPat's birthday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

The law locks up people who steal from banks,
But does nothing to banks that steal from the people.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:56 PM

...sorry, bit of thread drift but perhaps a modern parrallel to that wise old saying about the enclosure movement.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 02:01 PM

god save the queen,hors wessell song,rule britannia, and any national anthem.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Feb 10 - 03:09 PM

"This Land.."--"theft of land by capitalism".   That's a bit overstated. Yes, there is the verse about the sign. But the song was a direct reaction by Woody to the over-the-top patriotism of "God Bless America", a huge hit at the time Woody was writing.   In fact the original chorus was "God blessed America for me", not "This land was made for you and me".

Woody certainly did not think much of the concept of private property, but this song was celebrating the some of the splendors he had seen on the road--- as well as pointing out that the US was not a classless society and that patriotism was a lot more than flag-waving.   To read "theft of land by capitalism" into it shows a bit of tunnel vision.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 10:32 AM

I am surprised by what you say Ron. Although I was not a folkie (nor a leftie) in the 60s I first heard the song way back then-ish and I have never thought of the song in any way other than a rejection of private property as a concept, a restatement of the concept that property is theft, and of the right to roam.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Sorry Jim - I should have got back to you sooner but we were playing for the local vicars wife 60th last night.

Morris sides do tend to choose the strangest of names - and its Ok to make fun of the names / clothes / dances/ traditions. Fun is what morris sides are about. I just object when derogatory things are said on a public site like this one about identifiable members within the side.

Cyber bullying is a nightmare for some kids and schools do all they can to eliminate it. Its worse when its done by adults who should know better.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

Counts to ten.

There really are times when people would do well to reduce the display of their ignorance.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Bert
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 01:23 PM

I just object when derogatory things are said on a public site like this one about identifiable members within the side.

Quite right, not all of us have great repertoires, and it is a tradition in many communities for individuals to have their own 'Party piece'.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM

Certainly opposition to private property is in "This Land".   But there's a lot more. To pretend otherwise is, as I said, tunnel vision.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Feb 10 - 02:44 PM

At least , singing the wrong song in a Folk Club doesnt normally result in a Fatality ! http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=127137&messages=2

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM

Drifting slightly but has anybody else observed the common phenomenon that occurs whenever "folk" songs are being sung in a public bar (as opposed to the folk club) whereby a drunk will stagger up to the performers and slurr "can ya shing fieldsh of athenry"?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:16 AM

It is worth memorising the parody just for such occasions.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM

I trust you mean Catter Trayton's parody Richard !

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:00 PM

"Oh, no, not the Fields of Athenrae
If I hear it one more time I'm going to cry
It's such a boring song
It goes on, and on, and on.
I'm so pissed off with the Fields of Athenrae"

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 03:16 PM

i love where have all the flowers gone just when another war breaks out. i sing it with a slow harp accompanyment and try to do it slow and prayer like. i admit i don't sing it any other time.

bob dylan? how about eric bogles" i don't sing any bob dylan" as a response! however i do like a couple of dylan songs.. "visions of joanna", but i wouldn't sing it in a folk club.

and irish rebel songs, of course as a son of the gael i sing them all the time, whether people want to hear them or not(i.e. before some english and english canadian audiences)

most of the irish rebal songs come from the 1916 -1922 period or before. anyone who calls the irish aspiration to freedom to be terrorist is a racist fascist and thats that. gaels have a right o self determination and the songs are part of that right. if the songs of the fight for independence bother you you ought to look inside and find why you hate the gaels.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 04:57 PM

Aspiration is one thing. Murdering civilians is quite another.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:37 PM

i sing them all the time, whether people want to hear them or not(i.e. before some english and english canadian audiences)

I think what people really don't want to hear is the sound of a performer telling them he's going to make them listen to something they don't want to hear. You might want to reconsider the attitude. Or you might want to make your audiences feel like they're going to be made to listen to something they don't want to hear, in which case good luck with that.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 05:40 PM

"During the Irish War of Independence on November 21, 1920 Croke Park was the scene of a massacre by the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC). The Police, supported by the British Auxiliary Division entered the ground, shooting indiscriminately into the crowd killing or fatally wounding 12 during a Dublin-Tipperary gaelic football match. The dead included 11 spectators and Tipperary's captain, Michael Hogan. Posthumously, the Hogan stand built in 1924 was named in his honour. "

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:18 PM

The actions of the RIC were officially unauthorised and were greeted with public horror by the Dublin Castle-based British authorities.

The fire of the RIC was carried out without orders and exceeded the demands of the situation.

In short - the Irish terrorists had even until recently a policy of indiscriminate murder of non-combatants. Bloody Sunday was a cock up in which the RIC exceeded their orders in the apparent belief that armed combatants were being pursued and possibly entering an armed stronghold of a revolutionary force - which at that stage the soi-disant Irish government was.

Revolutionary attacks on occupying forces may be justified - but again it is a different kettle of fish when the forces that are being attacked are under orders not to shoot back.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 07:25 PM

I don't believe killing is ever justified, just that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

The Galway Shawl sung in lament style!

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:21 AM

Although the parody again is fun: something like -

"He had no timing
No sense of thythm
No feel for music
No none at all

He sang each verse
Like an Irish                            setter
And the song he murdered
Was the Galway Shawl."

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:23 PM

Richard

Have you got all the words?

CC

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 10:57 PM

richard bridge is the worst kind of apologist racist and fascist. the ric actions as the modern ulster volunteers are always not officially condoned. the authorities just never do anything about them. funny about that. the present good friday agreement compells the ira to disarm but not the ulster defense paramilitaries.anyone who reads the economist or the toronto globe and mail could see the findings of the tripartite commisision onnorthern ireland which was extensively quoted. there they founf that british army and adminstrators and spys did the intell forthe ulster paramilitaries, armed them, anmd empl;oyed them part time in the royal ulster regiment, formerly two regiments. they handed them dossiers on aproximately 5000 catholic community activists and the artms to kill them. then about three thousand were assissanated.. this was all admitted in parliament in the eighties and ninties and now promptly forgotten by the british public and government.   they alway do things arms length when they are really dirty..

even if this were not true. songs of freedom are good tobe sung and in no way make anyone a terrorist or conmdoning terrorism..its orwellian. in fact to say so is supporting state imperialism and racist fascism. it was an empire. duh .wake up.

and bloody sunday a cock up--thats the worst understatement since noah said looks like a little rain. the government blackmailed soldiers with seriuos thgreats to not testify at the hearings and shipped several to foreign countries and hid them during the first investigative commission. these were the guys who said the crowd was unarmed..   as all the honest witnesses said.the liars have now recamted. amd they weren'tcharged with perjury.if they had lied that the british murdered people they would have been charged. the government fought tokeep the cover up going for twenty years!!! finally a fair commission found the origional commission was a fraud and found the army fired on peacefull protestors, as they have done many many times in orosh history. bit no one is responsible. its never authorized. just all an accident.

and the couple of times i was shouted down for singing rebel songs i sang louder and most of the people came forward to support me. the racists are safe alone on lists but they don't do so well in public places where normal people realizes that freedom is the right of all people, and that fairness is the right of all minorities.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,the fight to remember is the fight against t
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:26 PM

the pretense that the british empire was all just an accident really gets old. it really is time for british citizens to stop pretending that their army has been in oreland for eight to nine hundred years by accident and that the british are not responsible for what it does. it is the first line of defense by fascists and racists to pretend it never happened or to pretend it was all a mistake and its not the fault of the peopler and government who sent the troops who accted so badly. there were thousands of acts of war crimes done by the british army during the rebellion and many more in northern ireland.

this isn'tnew. i'm a quarter acadien. eastern canadian french, we were ethnically cleansed by the british army i 1755and deported from out homes in nova scotia and new brunswick and prince edward island to the ends of the earth. famlies were split all the property seized and land taken and never returned. the on going policy of the british empire was war crimes .remebering the past accurately is the first sterp to correcting it.

remember what milan kundera said

"the fight to remember is the fight against tyranny"

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM

What about songs you should sing.

I expect folk songs to be melodic and narrative. I heard a really good song last night sung in the Good intent pub in Rochester in Kent   ( not a club but the room was mainly guest and performers). It was about the closing of Chatham dockyard and turning it into a tourist centre. The gent who wrote it played interesting chords but these did not detract from the melody. I know the issue wont mean much to many who dont live in kent but but it had

a story
a good tune
bits to join in with
cleverly played and sung
not over long but long enough

I dont think you can get better than that for a folk club song. Could anyone add to my list?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:51 AM

"modern ulster volunteers are always not officially condoned. the authorities just never do anything about them"

Bollocks

If that's the level of the "truth" you seek to convey you really have no idea.

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM

"a story
a good tune
bits to join in with
cleverly played and sung
not over long but long enough"

Would "The Nun's Chorus" from Casanova do?
If so, why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:21 AM

Ollaimh and the following Guest,
                                 Now come on. You know you can do better. Where have all your capital letters gone? I feel sure your English language teacher showed you how they are used in script and prose and the effort required to find them on the keyboard is minimal. You are just being lazy. So come on now, let`s try harder.

Dr.Quelch, (M.A Eng., B.S.A {Clips} V.D& Scar)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM

You tell 'em, Quelchie!

Cripes! Where's that half-crown postal order?

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

I guess 'The British Grenadier' would not go down to well in your pub then, olli?

:D

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:28 AM

I `ad that Milan Kundera in my cab the other day. `e was going up to the Borough Market to get some exotic nosh for `is dodgy restaurant.
I said, " `ere Kundy, some guest `as been talking about you on that Mudcat"
`e said, "`as `e? What`s `e been saying then?"
I said "`parently you said ` to fight to remember is the fight against tyranny`".
`e said, "Did I? I don`t remember saying that. Don`t sound like me. I expect `e `eard it wrong. I pro`bly said `remember to light the Christmas tree!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 11:28 AM

As a son of the Brit, I reserve the right to sing good British songs all the time, whether people like them or not - e.g. in front of ollaidh and his mates.

(I also reserve the right not to.)

Subject: RE: Songs you shouldn't sing in UK folk club
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 12:42 PM

10 minute introductions for well known 3 minute songs?

CC