the importance of diction when singing

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 11:47 AM

I can't imagine anyone wanting to hear a folk singer present a piece with "gravitas" and perfect diction, as a television news anchor might - unless for comic effect. That said, sloppy diction, slurs and mumbling can obscure the meaning of a song and set one's teeth on edge. There's a happy medium, I think, where you keep to the flavor, style and language inherent in a folk song while honoring your audience by making it reasonably understandable.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: Hamish
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 11:19 AM

Depends on the song. John Martyn featured slurred vocals but was brilliant. But his songs weren't dependent on following a long, intricate narrative.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:49 AM

I couldn't care less about a singer's diction. I can't understand plenty of my favourite blues singers - Sleepy John Estes for one. It leads to some brilliant mondegreens, which I'm confident are much more interesting than what the singer is actually saying.

Some singers over-enunciate so much they sound like BBC newsreaders of the 1940s.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:39 AM

Well, sometimes I really don't think it matters. I can listen to someone singing in Gaelic or French without understanding a bloody word!

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: breezy
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:37 AM

Lets leave out those North of the border though let them not all be tarnished with the same brush

Hands up all of us who can understand Vin Garbutt, at least I can but many of my fellow folkies find him ever so hard to follow.

As long as I can see his lips I'm O K and isnt he just hilarious

I agree, if you cant make out the lyric then it helps if what you're looking at has its attractions !!!

Ah well, thank goodness for CDs with enclosed lyrics, but they do sometimes print them very small

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:36 AM

Most Mondegreens seem to come about simply because of bad diction !
Learn a song from a recording and a LOT of the time you have to guess what the 'correct' word or phrase is !

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:30 AM

I heartily agree about diction and it is one of the things that really, really irritates and annoys me. The voice can be beautiful but if the diction isn't clear, in my opinion they've messed up the song. (Dick - who is it? Now I'm curious. There are a couple of female singers I could think of but not male - but then again I'm not in the UK so it may be somebody not on my radar.) That's one thing I always appreciated about Joan Baez - her diction was impeccable.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:29 AM

WHAT .... WHAT .... what was that you said Kendall ... I didn't understand you .... speak clearer, will you please!

I do some serious coaching in "performance techniques" and DICTION is the first I emphise. If you can't be easily understood by the audience, you soon will NOT have an audience. And audience doesn't come to a performance to "work." They come to relax and enjoy you. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:31 AM

Why do you need an example? Poor diction is poor diction no matter who has it.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:25 AM

"f course Silas if you joined mudcat,I could pm you and tell you who I am talking about in the strictest confidence."

I AM a member, I am using my work PC and don't want to set up the cookie on it!

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:23 AM

What is the problem with telling us who you mean? One of my favourite performers, Dick Gaughan used to be almost impossible to understand (he is better now, or maybe I have just got used to him). Kate Rusby can also be difficult, but it may just be that the combination of accents and singing styles make it hard to hear the words properly. Not folk I know, but Elton John is very very difficult in some of his songs.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:23 AM

of course Silas if you joined mudcat,I could pm you and tell you who I am talking about in the strictest confidence.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:19 AM

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: GUEST,Silas - PM
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

Well, you need to tell us who you are talking about otherwise your comments are pretty worthless.
[quote]perhaps you could explain,why I need to tell you who they are and why my comments are worthless,if I do not explain.
yes, the singing had nothing to do with dialect but to do with poor diction,the dialect is one I am very familiar with.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

Well, you need to tell us who you are talking about otherwise your comments are pretty worthless.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:48 AM

Anyone who imitates Dylan doesn't have my attention for long.

One of the best compliments I have ever gotten was this: "I have the feeling that when you sing you could be singing in Greek and I would understand every word."

I have always put diction above all else in the delivery. Now, you can go too far in that direction, Hank Snow did that. His affectations were a bit irritating, but you never had to wonder what he was saying.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: Young Buchan
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:43 AM

I think we need to separate diction (what Dick is talking about) from accent/dialect (what Richard is talking about).

It was, when they were alive, possible to go to hear Willie Scott or Davy Stewart, to take a couple of examples, and to be deeply puzzled by what they were singing. That is a clear case of what Richard calls a shortcoming in the listener. Performers like this had no diction problem - they were singing naturally and were wholly comprehensible to their natural audience, and if the sassenach wanted to listen in that was their problem. Certainly none of them were being promoted heavily by the music industry to force themselves on unsuspecting southern audiences.

Bad diction on the other hand, consists of wilfully adopting styles or failing to learn basic techniques or (in my experience this is most frequent) overuse/poor use of amplification in such a way as to make themselves incomprehensible to their intended audience.

Subject: RE: the importance of diction when singing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:20 AM

Now glueman would have us believe that if you speak well and clearly you should not sing folk songs.

There are quite a lot of singers from other parts of the UK and indeed other places that speak variants of English who I can find quite hard to understand because they speak with local norms not RP, Kent, Sarf Lunnon or Estuarine, and I think that is a shortcoming in me not them.

Subject: the importance of diction when singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM

there has been much criticism of singers in folk clubs , and much talk about floor singers needing to improve their standards.
However I recently heard a professional singer deliver a song[this singer makes most of his /her livelihood not in folk clubs but at festivals and art centres],I did not understand one word the singer sang.
This performer is considered to be one of the leading uk revival performers,and has been promted heavily by the folk music industry.
I just wonder what the hell is going on in the uk folk music industry, when a performer who has not got the most fundamental singing technique sorted out,is promoted heavily and is able to command big fees at art centres,and yet his /her diction means that the lyrics are inaudible.
God help the foLk revival,if lyrics no longer have any importance.
furthermore I have to question ,the direction of the uk folk revival,and the motives of the people manipulating the uk folk scene,and promoting performers who may have potential,but are clearly not up to florr singer standard.
I have to say that in 40 years of going to folk clubs,I have never encountered a floor singer whose diction was so bad that I could not understand a word.
yet regularly here on mudcat,people criticise the standard of amateur folk club floor singers,but seem to accept everything the folk music industry promotes regardless.
no names no pack drill.