spoons in sessions

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: John P
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 04:46 PM

Sessions are still open to the public, aren't they? What's the mechanism for excluding people you don't like?

This is one of the reasons I rarely go to sessions. Too many people (on all instruments) who don't know how to play in a session. Mix them together with the all-too-common pedantic session police and it often turns into a scene I don't want to be part of. Living room sessions are so much nicer.

Lumping all bones and bodhran players together is sort of dumb. Yes, you can learn to make noise on a bodhran in half and hour, but, like any other instrument, it will take a LOT longer than that to learn to play it. A good bones or bodhran player is a joy to behold -- just like good players on any other instrument. Perhaps you could have auditions for sessions?

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 05:45 PM

You can become "proficient" on a bodhran within a few hours. That is not comparable to the required acquisition of knowledge and skills on any musical instrument I can think of. And I repeat. All the rhythm and drive in traditional dance tunes is already there in the tune. A goat-beater is an unnecessary add-on, and is not deserving of the free beer. As for sessions being open, our session is our session and we more or less get to decide who joins in. I suppose no two sessions are alike, but it would be a mistake to think you can just swan into any session uninvited. We are generally very nice to occasional visitors.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 05:59 PM

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 06:08 PM

Sorry about the blank post. I wasn't really concentrating and clicked on the wrong link.

My feeling about percussionists is that they should be just as welcome as anyone else in a session. Obviously, if you run a session, you get to decide who comes, but for the most part they should be made welcome. In my experience, most percussionists tend to exercise discretion in the use of their instruments and spoon players often play something else as well and use their spoons for variety.

Irritation is not confined to percussion either. I remember one piano accordionist who seemed totally unable to play without a persistent um, chuck, um, chuck with the left hand. Most box players, in my experience, tend to exercise discretion in the use of the left hand, often leaving it out if another rhythm instrument is there (often a guitar or another box player) but this one just produced the same style left hand on every tune and it became most irritating in time.

I reckon we do tend to remember the poor players because they tend to stand out, but that's no excuse for some of the blanket generalisations I've seen.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 06:09 PM

You can't become proficient on a bodhran, or spoons, or bones, or any other percussion instrument in a few hours. Like any instrument, they take years of study and practice. Percussion played well can lift the music.

What I suspect you mean is that in a few hours you can pick up enough of the basics to go along to a session and make a bloody nuisance of yourself. Whereas on a "proper" instrument it will take months of practice before you've learned enough to go and make a bloody nuisance of yourself. Whether that is any better is open to question.

It's certainly true that people who can't or won't learn to play a melody instrument seem to turn to percussion as a way of joining in a session. It's also true that many of them seem to think that knowing 4/4, 6/8 and 3/4 are sufficient without needing to think about the internal rhythms of the tune. I'm not defending any of this. However it's also true of players of other instruments - especially guitarists, who in addition to failing to understand the rhythm also have ample oppportunity to misunderstand the chords as well.

There are good players and bad players on all instruments, and that includes technically competent players who show no understanding of the music.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:21 PM

Note, Howard, that I said "proficient", not proficient. Yep, bodhranistas see their vexatious "instrument" as an easy, short-cut way to get to sit in on sessions and soak up the beer. Next time you sit next to one, ask him if he can hum the tune he's supposedly accompanying. Ask if he even knows the name of the tune. Ask him if he knows what kind of tune it is. I'll wager that you'll get negative answers almost all the time. Of course, there will be honourable exceptions, but I've rarely encountered one. And what you say about other players is true, of course. But it's my experience that large numbers of goat-thumpers never get past that What I suspect you mean is that in a few hours you can pick up enough of the basics to go along to a session and make a bloody nuisance of yourself. stage. And I repeat again. All the rhythm and drive in traditional dance tunes is already there in the tunes. A goat-beater is a superfluous add-on. These bodhran-apologists never seem to want to address this very basic, rather inconvenient point.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 11:08 PM

I'm with John P entirely on this.

I'm not sure what point Steve Shaw thinks he's making when he puts certain of his words in quotes. Who's he quoting? Himself? He's spouting crap anyway. But his wouldn't be the first session to be restricted to a bunch of self-important prima donnas.

The point about those who play exposed, penetrating instruments (please note, Steve, no quotes) is that they need not only to play well but also to exercise good judgment about when to come in and for how long. This applies across all music. Imagine a symphony in which the triangle played in every bar.

Thanks for the link Vic Smith. That's an impressive website, and Jo is obviously an accomplished musician (if not quite up to Steve's standard), though I'd have preferred a shorter burst from the spoons in the Flop-eared Donkey - maybe a switch to bodhran for variety. The Royal Oak session looks different and well worth catching when I'm down that way. Is it weekly, and what night?

(I suppose everyone knows where there are no bodhrans in Star Trek?)

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 03:40 AM

Steve, I admit my heart sinks when someone produces a bodhran - especially in an English session. The same applies to piano accordions, guitars and banjos - guilty until proved innocent. And I don't disagree with what you say about those who only use a percussion instrument as an excuse to join in.

However just because most percussionists are numpties doesn't mean that percussion has no place in traditional music. If you beleive that, I can only assume you've not played with a good percussionist.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 05:36 AM

Does Steve's family know that he is so charming and thoughtful on this, a more or less public website? Do the people who go to "his" session know and are they pleased to be associated with his opinions and the way in which he so thoughtfully expresses them?

Thousands of tunes have survived the last 1, 2 , 3 or 4 hundred years. Most I guess have been used for social dancing. The bands and the instruments played in them have no doubt changed over that period. Squeezers and steel strings are a product of the industrial revolution. So what are we, who enjoy playing the tunes to do? Anything we like. That is more or less what people have always done. Have people who played for dancing over hundreds of years used percussion?

Some of us gather in public and play not for dancing but in "Sessions". Often the tunes are played too fast for dancing sometimes on instruments invented 200 years after the tunes were composed. Sometimes those in the sessions are friendly and welcoming in and sometimes they seem to have trouble speaking at all.

Best wishes

L in C#
Down The Beech Wednesday M21 9EG
Songs this week, tunes next week, dots on the table, steady pace.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 06:05 AM

Yeah, right, Les. "Dots on the table." Hahaha. Says it all. Can't you afford music stands? As I said, the drive and rhythm is already there in the tunes. Thumpers add nothing useful at best. There is nothing to add. And, like I said, we are always very nice to occasional visitors. Judge not.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 06:34 AM

Well Steve, we started as a "Beginners Session" based around ones we had been to at Whitby and Shrewsbury. We created our own tune book initially with 20 tunes in a cardboard stand a bit like those calendars that stand up by themselves.

3 years later we have 100 tunes and a stand made out of ribbed plastic like that used for Estate Agents signs - because we use the ribbed plestic used for Estate Agents signs. This means the music, 2 tunes ona page of A4, stands up to be seen at some distance by those who can read. We also share the music via pdfs, books and ABCexplorer.

Who ever comes through the door plays what ever they can. We have squeezers, fiddles, whistles, banjos, guitars, ukes, smallpipes, ulinian pipes, 'cellos, a harp, bongos played with brushes, tambourines, bodhrans, hammered dumcimers, trombone, a clarinet and promise of more brass. We play every other week and have a Ceilidh Band of between 16 and 30 who play mostly accoustically.

Each fortnight around 20 peeople turn up and we play whatever people fancy - mostly from our tune book.

We have a range of compitance from as good as it gets to a bit irritating. With so many it doesn't matter much if some people don't play very well. We generally have so much fun that tolerance of those not so good is the order of the day. Our general feeling is that most of us are getting batter and collectively we are playing better together.

Spoons? Fine. Does this music need percussion? It's dance music it has historically had percussion. Does it matter? No, not to us but a good drummer helps with keeping a steady tempo.

Best wishes

L in C#

Songs and tunes at The Beech

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 06:45 AM

This thread and other snobby "ban this, that & the other" threads are one reason why I don't go to folk clubs, but to more inclusive venues. Not all the singers & instruments that perform at the open mic and blues nights I go to are to my taste, but if they were my musical horizons wouldn't get widened.

RtS
Washboard of Mass Destruction & Kazoo of Doom

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 06:56 AM

Xlnt Roger - down The Beech asap

Les

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 07:25 AM

It is sometimes difficult to hear a new tune because the percussion is too loud. No chance of learning it. Even as a melody player I don't join in until the second A and second B because the person leading it may be playing a vriation of it. ( Im always surprised that some people join in before this ).
As etiquete goes I don't think percussion should join in until at least the second time round and if some are attempting to learn the tune then not until the learner has had a chance to grasp the main structure.
One percussion instrument only?
FloraG

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 07:45 AM

All these complaints are to do with bad playing, and could be said about any instrument played badly. It is unfortunately true that a bad percussionist can cause more disruption to a session than most other instruments. I'm not defending bad playing.

However, percussion doesn't have to be loud or intrusive. It should follow the tune, not lead it. It can pick out and highlight subtleties in the rhythm, and add another tone colour to the sound. It can make just as valid a contribution to the overall sound as any other instrument.

I agree with FloraG - only one at a time. Unfortunately, when the thumpers start up the good players often pack up, because they know they cannot play effectively or contribute to the music.

I can fully understand Steve's railings against bad percussion players, and it is regrettably true that bad percussion players seem to be ubiquitious.    However to play with a good percussionist is a delight.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 07:52 AM

"I agree with FloraG - only one at a time"

What are you going to do when the second percussion player turns up? S/he is a friend of yours, or is a good player, famous as a singer/ caller.

Music is the ultimate cooperative human musical experience.

L in C#

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 08:34 AM

They can take turns, me thinks.

While walking the dog I've been thinking about this in a mathematical way. I think as a rule of thumb 3/4 of the volume should be melody and counter melody. That leaves 1/4 for chords amd percussion.

I am aware that as a cac handed melodeon player it would be very easy for the person on my right never to hear the tune - just my chords, so unless I'm leading the tune I tend not to play them. One melodoen out of 4 is enough on the chords and none if there is a keyboard, accordian or base playing - and these can take turns. Listening to a tune is as much part of a session as playing.

No percussion at all during the verses of a song and PP for melody instruments joining in, as a rule.
FloraG

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 08:35 AM

Until it stops being music due to thumpers. If a second thumper turns up, and does not understand that one is bad enough but two are fatal, then the second thumper is not a musician. So the answer is that you shouldn't have to do anything.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 08:36 AM

That was a response to Les.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 08:48 AM

Let me get this right - you simply say to some people who turn up "No, you cannot play?"

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:10 AM

That is not what I said, Les. But we certainly don't want people who have no idea of normal social etiquette swanning in and doing whatever they like. I wouldn't do that at your session in a million years. I suggest to you that you are not familiar with either the circumstances of our venue with the constraints it puts on us nor the traditions of our particular session. Sessions are not all the same. If you turned up at our pub and asked if you could play we would be very nice to you. We already have a guitar player and we wouldn't want two at once, and we don't want our regular chap, who has driven thirty miles to be here, sitting on the sidelines all night so that you could take over. Competent melody players - not virtuosos - are always welcome. We have had some very negative experiences with very poor percussionists so you would probably wouldn't get a look-in if we saw one of those round bags in your mitts. So it all depends. And if you do have to tell someone not to join in with a second bodhran while another one is already playing, then you really are dealing with someone who is in severe danger of being moronic.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:54 AM

Well Steve social etiquette is indeed central to all sorts of things not least hoe we address and treat each other in public places:

"Zero tolerance for these talentless, insensitive tossers is the order of the day

The average bodhran owner, to borrow a phrase from a mate of mine, sounds like a couple of spuds in a bucket, and bones players sound like Pinocchio having a w**k.

A goat-beater is a superfluous add-on

If a second thumper turns up, and does not understand that one is bad enough but two are fatal, then the second thumper is not a musician

And if you do have to tell someone not to join in with a second bodhran while another one is already playing, then you really are dealing with someone who is in severe danger of being moronic."

Have I been to your session? How would you know?

As for your oft-repeated opnion that the tunes I think we are talking about need no percussion - I wont disagree but for hundreds of years people have used percussion instruments in bands that played those tune. It doesn't any of us have to, but we can if we like.

I have heard people in sessions playing poorly on all sorts of indtrments and I have heard people play spoons, bones, tambourines and shaky eggs played well, as loads of people have pointed out above.

My device of choice is the tenor banjo - what is yours?

L in C#

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 10:08 AM

The harmonica. And had you been to my session we'd surely have bantered about things northern (I'm a Radcliffe lad originally). And we Radcliffe lads are stubborn buggers, and I'm sticking to what I say. And if people in sessions are not playing well, we have something that needs working on, and that's a damn sight easier without some eejit banging or clattering away by your side.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 10:17 AM

OK Steve I'd like ti think that in practise we are probably notoo far away but I will repeat, because I and others have made these points lots of time:

1. Nearly all instruments can be played in such a way to bring either joy or pain
2. Percussion instruments have been played in our kinds of tunes for hundreds of years.

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Silas
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 10:35 AM

I'd just like to add my pennyworth to this thread. A well-played Bodhran or spoons can add to a tune and in some cases give it a real lift. I play in music sessions quite often and there is a guy who plays the bones exceptionally well, but will only join a tune set if he thinks it is 'working' properly. It's great. You know when you are playing well because Roger joins in on the bones! However, there is something even worse than badly played goat or spoons creeping into sessions now – those bloody acoustic box things that people sit on and bash with their hands – if ever there was a case for taking a power-saw to a session that is it.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:22 PM

"acoustic box things"
sounds like something cricketers wear

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:29 PM

The bodhran as an instrument in traditional Irish music is about fifty years old. Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: John P
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:57 PM

I think that Steve's problem is that he is stating his personal opinion as if it were fact, and he's insulting lots of good musicians while he's doing it.

Here's my opinions: classing all percussionists together is a sign of someone without much sense, musicality, normal politeness, or experience. Holding a session in a public place and then telling musicians they can't play along is rude. Go home and play with your mates if you want to be exclusive. Or start a band and get a gig. Except it sounds like that's what you're doing. Why do you call it a session?

Here's some more: any tune that has more than one fiddle playing has one fiddle too many unless all the players are playing every pitch perfectly. Two whistles being played in unison almost always produce a loud disharmonic overtone. EVERYONE except the guitar player should shut up during the verses of a song. No one should ever play in public until they are quite competent. Not at sessions, not busking, not at sing-arounds and open mics. Stay home and practice until you are playing something that anyone might want to hear.

I agree that non-musicians who want to join in often take up percussion. This does not mean that all percussionists are non-musicians, or that non-musicians can't learn to be musicians. I once dealt with an impromptu session that had four non-musician percussionists and three other instruments. I put down my cittern and gave them a percussion lesson, mostly having to do with playing quietly enough to hear everything that everyone else was doing and respond to it. I think they learned some new concepts. The session was much more enjoyable after that. And I didn't have to tell anyone who was trying to play music to get lost.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 02:19 PM

Who tells musicians that they can't play along?? You can actually read, can you? We get visiting musicians occasionally and we make them welcome. How many times do I have to say it? We have one bloke who comes once a year who plays the spoons and he is a perishing nuisance every time. He is ultra-loud and he plays non-stop on everything. The last time he was here, a lady concertina player, another visitor, had to give up and pack away because of him. He thought it was hunkydory to use the edge of the chair she was sitting on as his foot-rest, thereby clattering at 150 decibels into her ear. She hasn't been back since. We have decided to keep him out from now on. Wouldn't you? Telling him that enough was enough ended up with us nearly coming to blows. We had another bloke who played the bodhran and bones, and he played on literally every piece we played, songs and tunes, all the way through, including waltzes and slow airs. The more free beer he consumed, the louder he got. If the established session members do not want bodhrans, then that's how it should be. It is not the same as melody instruments or even guitars. The other points you make are simply unreasonable and slightly silly and not worth responding to.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 02:32 PM

The Bod as such is as you say about 50 yraes ld. The Harmonica is how old? 100, 200 years? Some of our tunes are 400 years old. Does any of this matter? Not to me

L in C#

And what John P says - very well!

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 02:43 PM

John is just being petulant. I mentioned the fifty years simply because you kept saying that percussion has been used for hundreds of years, etc. The bodhran is nowt but a trendy upstart, preferably with a big harp tattooed on the poor goat, used mainly to get talentless people into sessions. The very few glorious exceptions no doubt prove the rule.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 03:12 PM

Steve, your complaints are once again about the behaviour of a couple of individuals. It is not inevitable that percussionists, not even bodhran players, behave like that, neither is that sort of behaviour confined to percussionists. As a harmonica player, you must be well aware that's another instrument which lots of people believe they can play, because they had one as a kid.

There's a guitarist comes to my session who is apparently incapable of identifying the key, or even to distinguish minor from major, and is also totally lacking any awareness of rhythm, other than the most basic concept of the beat. At his worst, he can completely kill a tune. The other regular guitarist is the complete opposite and a joy to play with.

Perhaps the most perfect session I've ever participated in was wrecked when some pillock with a piano accordian arrived towards the end, totally misread the laid-back vibe and decided it need "livening up". He emptied the room in 5 minutes. However I've also met some superb PA players.

Incompetent players on any instrument can wreck a session. Some instruments can be more disruptive than others. To take against an entire family of instruments because of the behaviour of some players is not only blinkered but, in my view, counter-productive, because you'll miss out on some great music.

Bury your prejudices, seek out a good percussionist, and play with them. You might be surprised.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 03:44 PM

Why would I seek out a percussionist when I know that percussion is superfluous to the music I play? The tunes are everything in this music. It matters not that people have been intruding for hundreds of years with their various thumpees. You can't prove to me that 17th century drummers had any better taste than the hairy young git on Glastonbury Tor with a tom-tom and a dreamy expression. Percussion adds noise. It does not add rhythm. It just (at best) makes rhythm louder at the expense of melody. The rhythm is already fully there in the tunes. I know that bodhranistas have much emotion invested in their wretched instruments, but these are the obstinate facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Crowhugger
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 04:14 PM

Announcing: SPOONS-SESSION at my place every Saturday! Bodhrans and all drums, banjos, bagpipes (all kinds), squeezboxes are INFINITELY welcome!! Rhythm guitars featured the first session of each month.

We regret to inform you that we frown on more than one fiddle at a time--their intonation almost never matches each other; same with whistle. Mandos, well I guess a few are okay, since sound isn't as penetrating as fiddle or whistle. But we trust you'll first listen to the rhythm before trying to join with it.














;-)

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 06:48 PM

Never mind all that. my drum is pre-dubbined and my bones are greased. Just tell me the beer's free and I'll be there, loud 'n' proud!

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: John P
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:56 PM

Who tells musicians that they can't play along?? You can actually read, can you?

According to you, you do. This is what I actually read. You wrote it:

As for sessions being open, our session is our session and we more or less get to decide who joins in.

Zero tolerance for these talentless, insensitive tossers is the order of the day

We already have a guitar player and we wouldn't want two at once

I say again, it sounds like you're playing in a band that has a regular gig. Why do you call it a session?

AND:
The tunes are everything in this music.

Well, except for the guitar, the drums, the bass, the synthesizers, the singers, the rhythm, the harmonies, the chords, etc etc etc. You seem to be defining "this music" according to your own tastes. Fortunately, there are thousands of people all over the world playing "this music" in ways that apparently would give you a heart attack. And the good news is that it's all traditional playing, in that modern traditional players are doing all these things. Your comment about the bodhran being only 50 years old makes it sound like you are unclear on the difference between traditional music and historical music.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 03:39 AM

OK Steve, you clearly can't understand the role that percussion can play, and if you aren't interested in exploring it that is of course up to you. However your prejuduce seems to be based entirely on your experiences with percussionists who are poor musicians, and to me that doesn't appear to be a very sound basis on which to make sweeping judgements.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Silas
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 04:35 AM

Padstow mayday would be a pretty poor affair without the drums.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 05:41 AM

Well I'd heartily agree with that, Silas. The drumming, the beer, the hundreds of accordions and the maidens dressed in white are all part of the Padstow allure. And I like bands and I have lots of CDs by great Irish and Scottish bands. Ringo McDonagh is a superstar in my eyes. I go to see bands that have a bodhran player. I know very well what role percussion can play in a well thought out context. But I'm talking about sessions here. I freely admit that there may be a few good bodhran players around who, whilst they add nothing, don't actually get up anyone else's noses in sessions. But Howard is right: I haven't come across any, so I'm biased. I think you'll find that very large numbers of good musicians who play Irish music are similarly biased. I don't know what you call it when a very large number of people all have the same bias. Racism towards bodhran owners I suppose. And John, you can read English I assume. Instead of cherry-picking the bits of my posts that suit your bitter agenda, try reading the whole lot over again. We are always very nice to visiting musicians of good will. Always.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 05:49 AM

I've read 'em all Steve and I bet Silas and the others have too. I repeat:

social etiquette is indeed central to all sorts of things not least hoe we address and treat each other in public places:

"Zero tolerance for these talentless, insensitive tossers is the order of the day

The average bodhran owner, to borrow a phrase from a mate of mine, sounds like a couple of spuds in a bucket, and bones players sound like Pinocchio having a w**k.

A goat-beater is a superfluous add-on

If a second thumper turns up, and does not understand that one is bad enough but two are fatal, then the second thumper is not a musician

And if you do have to tell someone not to join in with a second bodhran while another one is already playing, then you really are dealing with someone who is in severe danger of being moronic."

Are you entirely sure that all the people at your session are always happy with your own contributions? As has been pointed out harmonicas are as welcome at some sessions as you might make spoons at yours

Best wishes

L in C#
Tunes at The Beech M21 9EG next Wednesday
Bring your own spoons & Bods

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Silas
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:14 AM

Actually Les, I don't disagree with all that Steve says, in fact, I agree with a lot of it. I was at a session earlier this week when a guy came with one of those wooden box thingies. A real nice guy, someone I have known for years. This was obviously a new purchase and he wanted to try it out, and boy, did he try it out! Loud, out of time, so much so that I had to stop playing as I could no longer follow the melody and the lead, a melodion, was really struggling. If it had ben a session thaty I was organising words would have been said without a doubt!

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:27 AM

Fair enough Silas.

I think this thread has reached that point, probably sometime ago, when everything that can be said has been said. Some of it has been said thoughtfully and some in language that almost nobody uses face to face - and that is a big problem on these sites.

We gather around 40 odd muscians in our session. A core of 10 or so and another 10 - 15 each fortnight. I am endlessly astonished that so many people want to join me and the others to play mostly simple country dance tunes .

I thoroughly enjoy it and so do they. It is a social event as much as a musical event

L in C#

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:39 AM

Not about spoons but on the theme.

I was a bit upset and annoyed last year at the Faversham hop festival. As a volunteer helper I had agreed to run the live music sessions. On the Friday evening, we had started our ( mostly but not exclusively ) singing session at one end of the bar room, as we had done for far too many years to count, when for the first time ever, a group of musicians turned up and started their own session in a room adjacent but not totally seperate from the main room. This meant that only the loudest singers could carry on, and had to sing at full volume.

I know a session does not ' belong' to anybody as such, nor does the right to use any particular pub, but I was disappointed and surprised at the lack of courtesy shown by these musicians, especially as they were mostly not inexperienced yougsters. There is no shortage of pubs in Faversham, so why pick on the one where the sing around/ session was already going on? They had to walk past us to get to the other room. Fortunately they did not turn up the following evening.

Was I right to be surprised and a bit annoyed at what I considered discourteous behaviour, or should I have just accepted it as the way folk musicians are today?
FloraG

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Silas
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM

Hi Flora
Sounds bloody rude to me. I disagree about sessions not 'belonging' to anyone. In my opinion the session 'belongs' to the person who organises it and it is up to them to choose how its run and what sort of music/songs are performed.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 07:03 AM

Consider Anarcho-Syndicalism

L in C#
No Master here

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 07:07 AM

There are session wreckers everywhere, Flora. Most musicians are courteous and considerate, but there are those whose big egos override all other considerations. Get their feet under the table and you're stuffed for the night. There seems to be some kind of paradoxical rule whereby the least talented have the biggest egos. And Les, old chap. How many times do I have to say it. We always make welcome visiting musicians of good will. Always. We are a very nice bunch of blokes. I know it's inconvenient to your cause, as with John, but it happens to be the most important thing I've said and you are choosing to ignore it. A session with 40 people sounds absolutely horrible, but then again I haven't been to it and it ain't right for me to judge, is it! I won't be numero 41, I can tell you that much. No wonder they need dots and can't learn by ear!

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 07:20 AM

Please read the small print Steve - around 20 - 25 each fortnight.

And for the 3rd time:

"Zero tolerance for these talentless, insensitive tossers is the order of the day

The average bodhran owner, to borrow a phrase from a mate of mine, sounds like a couple of spuds in a bucket, and bones players sound like Pinocchio having a w**k.

A goat-beater is a superfluous add-on

If a second thumper turns up, and does not understand that one is bad enough but two are fatal, then the second thumper is not a musician

And if you do have to tell someone not to join in with a second bodhran while another one is already playing, then you really are dealing with someone who is in severe danger of being moronic."

I guess you are sweetness and light at your own sessions and just write this kind of thoughtful sensitive stuff here?
Best wishes

L in C#
Tunes at The Beech M21 9EG next Wednesday
Bring your own spoons & Bods

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 07:27 AM

For the record, I also agree with a lot of what Steve says. As I said in an earlier post, bodhran players in particular are "guilty until proven innocent". The difference is that I believe firstly that there are good percussionists around, and secondly that good ones can add something. Steve clearly doesn't, and that's his prerogative, but he also seems to have closed his mind to the possibility.

I should perhaps add that I don't often play percussion myself. Like the definition of a gentleman ("someone who can play accordion, but doesn't") I can play bones but don't often bring them out.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 09:44 AM

I have not closed my mind to bodhran playing. I have dozens of CDs with bodhran playing on 'em. I enjoy watching a good bodhran player in a band at a gig. I think the bodhran-playing of Christy (who I'm seeing in Liverpool soon), Johnny McDonagh and Gino is all fantastic. But not, for me, in a session, ever. For the reason given, that a superfluous layer of loud rhythm in a tune session is a bad thing. And I cheerfully admit that I've had mostly very negative experiences with bodhrans/eggs/spoons/bones and those bloody drum things you stick between your legs and bang with your hands. So have lots of other people, which is why these alleged instruments have got themselves such a bad name. Deservedly, in my book. My instrument has also got a bad name, but I have spent 20 years endeavouring to show that it has a meaningful place. I see very little sign of similar efforts from the average thumper, whose only goal is, apparently, to make as much noise as possible all evening.

Subject: RE: spoons in sessions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 09:48 AM

Incidentally, I possess two bodhrans and a beautiful tipper, hand-made for me to my specs by Tony Dixon before he went and got all famous. They haven't been out of the house for 15 years. I learned.