Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English

Subject: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:47 PM

Hi all,
Just finishing off the references for second edn of The Wanton Seed.
I'm trying to include references to currently available recordings of as many of the songs as possible. I've had a quick look at the DT and whilst midis are available and I might refer to these it's actual recordings of singers I'm after. Ideally recordings of source singers and where possible as close to Hampshire/Dorset as poss. Where these are not available I'm willing to include details of recordings made by revival singers based on the Hammond/Gardiner versions. For instance Tim Radford has very kindly sent me a copy of his new CD based on the songs of George Blake who features 5 pieces in Wanton Seed. I will definitely be including these references.

Here's a list of songs for which I currently have nowt. CD title and number should be sufficient.

All Under The New Mown Hay: Roud 7180: I know Martin Carthy recorded it twice but not currently available?

The Barley Raking: R1024

Bedlam = Through Moorfields: R605

The Bedmaking: R1631

Better For Maids to live Single: R1632 (Unique)

The Boatswain and the Tailor: R570

Bonny Kate: R1633 (Unique)

Bright Phoebus: R1634 (Long shot)

The Buxom Lass = The Mower: R853

Captain Ward and the Rainbow: R224

Catch-Me-If-You-Can: R1028 (Somebody recorded this recently?)

The Cluster of Nuts: Roud 1261

The Crafty Maid's Policy: R1624

The Dandy Husband: R15129 (Unlikely)

The Darling Boy: R1452

The Death of Parker: R1032

Down By the Woods and Shady Green Trees = The Shady Green tree: R2512

The Gay Ploughboy: R1639

The Hostess's Daughter: R914

I am a brisk Young Sailor: R1042

The Yorkshireman In London: R1640 (unlikely)

John White: R1641 (Unique)

Johnny Sands and Betty Haigh: R184

Jolly Joe the Collier's Son: R1129

The Lady of riches: R601

The Lass of London City: R1554

Long looked For Come at last; R991

Low Down in the Broom: R1644 (English versions only)

The Man of Dover: =Birmingham Boys, R665 (Harry Cox sang but is it currently available)

Mathew the Miller: R 1050

Molly and William + False-hearted William: R 1414

(My) Good Old Man: R240

My Husband's got no Courage in him = O Dear O: R870 (Current Bert Lloyd/ Frankie Armstrong?)

(My) Jolly Roving Tar: R913

Oh dear, how I long to get married: R1647

Old Mother Crawley: R1057 (Unique)

Old Woman's Song: R1648 (Unique)

Robin Hood and the Tanner: R332 (Unlikely)

The Roving Bachelor: R1649

Seven Months I've been Married: R1650 (Only one other known version in Canada)

The Shopkeeper: R1651

Three Jolly Sneaksmen: R1652 (Unique)

The Wanton Seed: R17230

Watercresses: R1653 (Harry Clifton)

Young Johnny was a Ploughboy = Young Roger the Ploughboy: R17772

Young Johnson: R12718

Yes it is a long list but anything would be helpful and appreciated, including suggestions of where to look. I have already plumbed the depths of 'The Voice of the People' series and some of the VT CDs and MTCDs

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:21 AM

Hi Steve,
I hope this book has the music, as there seems to be quite a number of songs that may not have been recorded. Here's a few that mihgt help.
Watercresses: Recorded as The Watercress Girl by Tommy Morrissey on the Veteran CD "Old Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all" VIC9CD
The Bedmaking: Martin Carthy on Cd Crown of Thorn
Three Jolly Sneaksmen: Martin Carthy on CD Sweet Wivelsfiels
My husband's got no courage in him: Lorna Campbell on some Ian Campbell Folk Group CD
The Wanton Seed: Bert Lloyd on CD "Bird in the Bush" Topic label
Robin Hood and the Tanner: Wallace House on Lute : Robin Hood Ballads on the Smithsonian/Folkways label 1953 FP839. May not be on CD but available on e-music.
Bright Phoebus: on CD of same name by Mike and Lal Waterson
Jolly Roving Tar: Jeff Warner on "Steady as she Goes" 1977 Smithsonian/Folkways.
I feel some of the other songs may be recorded under a different title. I think there is a recording of "Captain Ward and the Rainbow" under the title of "The Rainbow" and also "Captain Ward". I'll get back to you on that one.
                      Hope that helps.
                                          Zozimus

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:49 AM

The Death of Parker: R1032,has been recorded by Dick Miles,on Nautical And,it is available from his web site
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:28 AM

I recorded a version of Roud 1028 ( Catch me if you can) collected in Cottenham by Ella Bull in 1904 & later by RVW. It is called The Cuckoo & the Nightingale. If you look in EDS Summmer 2006 you will find all the details.
Anahata and I have recorded it on Fenlandia ( WildGoose WGS 340CD )

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:35 AM

I omitted from my last post: I used the Hammond version collected from Wm Farnham, South Perrot to complete the text that was submitted to Lucy Broadwood by Ella Bull. The additions are italicised in the EDS article.PM me if you wish to know more.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: treewind
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:43 AM

"Anahata and I have recorded it on Fenlandia (WildGoose WGS 340CD)" Fenlandia details, including track listing and story behind the Cottenham songs.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:10 AM

Death of Parker - recorded by Audrey Smith, available on Songs from the Golden Fleece (Musical Traditions MTCD 335-6).

Audrey also sang "John White" but that isn't on this recording ... I sing that one, and recently put up a recording of it on Onmvoice, but don't really think that counts! Patterson Jordan Dipper also performed it as part of their set a few years ago, but again, that wasn't included on their "Flat Earth" CD
(I'm intrigued - what does "Unique" beside the title of the song indicate? )

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: zozimus
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:46 AM

The Crafty Maids Policy was recorded by Frankie Armstrong on Topic label and appears on the "Three Score and Ten" compilation

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:01 AM

Bright Phoebus: on CD of same name by Mike and Lal Waterson - I think not! Shame people make assumptions when you're asking for accurate knowledge.

BB & I (correct grammar) have recorded Man of Dover and Cluster of Nuts - but I'll try to get more detail down on others and PM you.

TomB

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: RTim
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:13 AM

Here are a few more "obscure" recordings.
- Tim Radford

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bedlam = Through Moorfields: R605 - sung by Cheryl Jordan on:
- Folk Songs from Hampshire FTBT 2CD1-H

I Am a Brisk Young Sailor: R1042 - sung by Steve Jordan on:
- Folk Songs from Hampshire FTBT 2CD1-H

Long Looked For Come at Last; R991 - sung by Tim Radford on:
- Folk Songs from Hampshire FTBT 2CD1-H

Old Mother Crawley: R1057 (Unique) - sung by Notts Alliance on
- TSR11 Cheerful 'orn [Notts Alliance [Roy Harris; Ian Stewart; Roger Grimes; Laurence Platt] with guest on the recording - Carol Gardner - fiddle] (1972)

Robin Hood and The Tanner: R332 (Unlikely) - sung by Steve Jordan on:
- Folk Songs from Hampshire FTBT 2CD1-H

Low Down in the Broom: R1644 (English versions only) - sung by Sarah Morgan on:
Peppers and Tomatoes 2006 Craig - Morgan - Robson

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: zozimus
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:47 AM

Hi TomB,
As regards making assumptions, the only assumption I make is that Steve will double-check and confirm these are the right versions.
Having said that, Nic Jones has recorded a song called "The Lass from London City" on his first L/P which may be R1554, and Martin Carthy has recorded "The Rainbow" on his CD Prince Heathen", which may be "Captain Ward and the Rainbow" R224.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 12:48 PM

From memory, I think Nic Jones altered the tune from that printed in the old edition of WS and made slight alterations to the text.

Surreysinger - I think the unique attribution means that it's the only source listed in Roud.

Mick

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:00 PM

Not the right area, but there's a Walter Pardon recording of I'm Yorkshire Though In London on Musical Traditions MT CD 305-6 ('Put a Bit of Powder on it Father').

Mick

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: RTim
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

I would also suggest you look at the following Web Site for more info. on Hampshire Songs, Singers and Recordings, etc..

http://www.forest-tracks.co.uk/hampshirevoices/

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:13 PM

Dave Burland (Not very Dorset, I know) recorded Captain Ward and the Rainbow on vinyl. Trailer records - Dave Burland LER 2082 (1972)
I bought it years back, reduced because it had no sleeve, so I don't know what the cover looked like or if there were any sleeve notes.
As it is on the Trailer label, I presume it is another recording now unavailable.
Found details on web!
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 03:06 PM

Wow!
I expected Mick and Tim to be in there but great stuff and thanks to all of you. I did ask for currently available recordings, but if I am struggling with a reference for a song I will use OOP references so please keep 'em coming.

The 'unique' tag means, not only are there no other oral versions in Roud, it also means I haven't got any references either. But they may be on VT, MT albums we haven't indexed yet.

Yes I am familiar with the 2 different 'watercress' songs.

I've got 'long shot' next to 'Bright Phoebus' because I can't imagine anyone on the folk scene singing it as it's so obviously an art song product of the pleasure gardens. I'm more likely to get a recording by a classical singer.

I don't intend to include multiple references so where there are lots I will give precedence to source singer recordings and those closest to Hants/Dorset. Those recordings Tim has posted from the Hampshire recordings look definites so I will do an updated list of wants ASAP, probably on Sunday as I'm at the Newcastle TSF meeting all day tomorrow.

Once again many thanks.
Steve

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:18 PM

Steve, I'm sure you area aware of The Dandy Husband sung by Walter Pardon as The Dandy Man and The Yourkshireman in London as I'ze Yorshire, Though In London.
Through Moorfields was sung by Sandra Kerr on the Critics Group Argo album A Merry Progress to London.
Death of Parker by Frankie Armstrong on Critics Group Argo album, Waterloo, Peterloo.
Sandra Kerr sang Jolly Roving Tar on soemthing - let me know if you want me to follow it up.
Johnny Sands and Betsy Haig by Dennis Turner on a Critics Group recording (will look it out if necess)
Jolly Roving Tar, Bedmaking, Barley Raking

Dont know if these are what you are looing for
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:35 PM

Geoff - (again from memory) Dave Burland used both different tune and text from WS.

Steve - I've certainly heard Bright Phoebus sung (folk clubs/festivals), though I can't remember who was singing it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 05:31 AM

As I said, Mick - cheap because there was no cover - hand written track list on cardboard cover, old vinyl which I am not set up to play for listening, bought probably late 70's or early 80's.
I have no idea what it actually sounds like.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

Jim,
Many thanks for your suggestions. The 3 priority criteria are really currently available, source singers, revival singers singing those specific versions in The Wanton Seed. However, if I can't find any of these for a specific song I will look to include older recordings by revival singers so I may avail myself of your kind offer.

Steve

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 01:01 PM

"My Husband's got no courage in him" was recorded by Maddy Prior and June Tabor on the first Silly Sisters album.

"Captain Ward" is on Spiers and Boden's "Vagabond"

Nic Jones' version of "The Wanton Seed" is on "Unearthed"

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM

MCP - you might have heard me sing Bright Phoebus, but I didn't record it. I seem to remember the Songwainers telling me they'd heard June sing it too.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 01:12 PM

Rosie Hardman sang the Death of Parker - not sure if she recorded it.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 04:29 AM

I know that you're looking for currently available versions but I just have to mention that Ewan MacColl recorded 'Through Moorfields' on his 1966 Topic LP, 'The Manchester Angel' (Topic 12T147). I only mention this because it's my favourite folk recording of all time and all the tracks on it are 'engraved' on my brain. Also it seems to have been practically forgotten these days - a sad fate for a masterpiece!

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: The Doctor
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:14 AM

A few more. Apologies if I'm repeating anyone:
Bedlam - Dave and Toni Arthur on The Lark in the Morning, now a World Serpent CD
The Bedmaking - Martin Carthy Definitive Collection CD
Bright Phoebus - Dave Burland on Songs and Buttered Haycocks LP
The Mower - Martyn Wyndham-Read on Jackeroo CD and AL Lloyd on Voices, English Traditional Songs CD
Catch me if you can - Dave Webber & Anni Fentiman on Away from it all CD
Darling Boy - Mary Humphreys & Anahata on Floating Verses CD
Johhny Sands - Martyn Wynham-Read on self-titled LP
Low Down in the Broom - Coope, Boyes & Simpson on Hindsight and Voices in Harmony CDs
My husband's got no courage in him - The Roots Quartet on Prehistory CD
Jolly Roving Tar - Barrie & Ingid Temple on Sailors All CD
Young Johnston - Betsy Whyte on The Muckle Sangs CD

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM

Great stuff. It's helpful if any of these are on current CDs. A lot of the old vinyl is being reissued on CD so I might be able to use some of these.
Unfortunately if it's on really old LPs unreissued it's not likely to be used.

Many thanks,
Steve

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:06 PM

Be aware that Jeff Warner's 'Jolly Roving Tar' is not the same song as the one in 'Wanton Seed' - he does the 'Get Up, Jack, John Sit Down' song from Lena Bourne Fish (which I reckon is an American parody of the English original). Not sure which one Barrie and Ingrid sing.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM

Referring back to Tim's posting earlier.
All early releases on Forest Tracks are still available, some to order only.

Folk Songs From Hampshire and Folk Songs From Dorset have been reissued as a double CD with extra tracks.

Forest Tracks
Thanks Tim

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:28 PM

Miskin Man,
Are there any others other than those listed on the website please?

Thanks, Brian.
Anyone know which song is 'Jolly Roving Tar' on 'Sailors All' CD by Barrie and Ingrid Temple? What's its Roud number or even first line would do?

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:10 PM

Tom,
Can you please let me have recording details on 'Cluster of Nuts'?

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:52 PM

Steve, MacColl does a short version of "Captain Ward" on one of his Folkways Child Ballads LPs, available for download.

Frankie Armstrong does "Low Down in the Broom" on her LP/CD "Lovely on the Water" (Fellside FECD151).

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: The Doctor
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:37 AM

This is Barrie and Ingrid's Jolly Roving Tar, but it looks like a different song:

Now ships may come and ships may go as long as the sea do roll
Each sailor lad, just like his dad, he loves that flowing bowl
Each trip ashore he does adore with a girl that's plump and round
When the money is gone it's the same old song, 'Get up, Jack, John sit down.'
Ch: Come along, come along, jolly brave boys, lots of grog in the jar
    We'll plough the briny ocean with a jolly roving tar

When Jack's ashore he makes his way unto a boarding house
And they welcome him with rum and gin and they feed him on the pork and souse
He'll rend and spend, not offend, 'til he lies drunk on the ground
When the money is gone....

He'll take a trip on some old ship to India or Japan
For the ladies there in Asia fair, they love that sailor man
He'll go ashore and honour her, he'll buy the girl a gown
When the money is gone....

When Jack is old and weather-beat, too old to roam about
In some old shop they'll let him stop 'til eight bells calls him out
He'll raise his eyes up to the skies, saying, 'Jack, you're homeward bound'
When the money is gone....

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:05 AM

Steve
A lot of the Topic back catalogue is being re-issued but as downloads. Would this count as "reissued"?
Derek

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: zozimus
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:22 AM

Topic plan to eventually make their entire back catalogue available, the ones considered not commercially viable for CD to be issued as downloads. As such, all will eventually be available. As such I would suggest to Steve the should be referenced, as they will become available.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: GUEST,bigJ
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:12 PM

Steve,
R184 and R665 are on the recording by Harry Cox which was released in the USA on the Folk Legacy label C20. It might still be in their catalogue.
John

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Brian Peters
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:30 PM

"This is Barrie and Ingrid's Jolly Roving Tar, but it looks like a different song:"

Certainly is. However, the tune is very similar, and a couple of phrases from the Hammond / Gardiner versions turn up in the chorus of the American song. Hence my theory that the latter is a parody or rewrite of an English original.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Reinhard
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:44 PM

New Mown Hay - Martin Carthy, "Skin and Bone", Topic TSCD492
I Sowed Some Seeds = The Hostess's Daughter - Martin Carthy, "Out of the Cut", Topic TSCD426
The Bedmaking - Martin Carthy, "Crown of Horn", Topic TSCD300
Three Jolly Sneaksmen - Martin Carthy, "Sweet Wivelsfield", Topic TSCD418
The Wanton Seed - Nic Jones, Unearthed, Mollie Music MMCD02-03
The Wanton Seed - A.L. LLoyd, The Bird in the Bush, Topic TSCD479
Flash Company = The Yellow Handkerchief - Waterson:Carthy, Common Tongue, Topic TSCD488
Bonny Kate - Shirley Collins, Anthems in Eden + Amaranth, BGO BGOCD442
The Buxom Lass = The Mower - Eliza Carthy & The Kings of Calicutt, Evolving Tradition 2, Mrs Casey MCRCD6991
Ward the Pirate = Captain Ward - Peter Bellamy, Peter Bellamy, reissued on Fair Annie, Dellside FECD167
The Jolly Roving Tar - Peter Bellamy, Fair England's Shore, Fellside FECD216
Oh Dear Oh = My Husband's Got No Courage in Him - Martin Carthy, Life and Limb, Topic TSCD491
My Husband's Got No Courage in Him - Maddy Prior & June Tabor, Silly Sisters, BGO BGOCD213
The Crafty Maid's Policy - Frankie Armstrong, Lovely on the Water, Fellside FECD151
Robin Hood and the Tanner - Roy Harris, The Bitter and the Sweet, Topic 12TD217 (LP, not available)
The Lass of London City - Nic Jones, Nic Jones, Trailer LERCD2027 (CD-R of dubious quality)
The Press Gang = The Lady of Riches - Brass Monkey, Head of Steam, Topic TSCD575
Low Down in the Broom - Eliza Carthy & Nancy Kerr, Shape of Scrape, Mrs Casey MCRCD5992

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:50 PM

Thanks for all of these.
Derek, Your call. I will include all of those downloads from Topic where I am short of a reference, otherwise I will still use my above criteria to give priority to refs that are derived from the versions in TWS or are by source singers. If I don't have a cut-off point we could carry on for another 20 years and we'll never get it published.

Here's an update of the tracks we're still looking for.
The Barley Raking
Better for Maids to Live Single
The Boatswain and the Tailor
Bright Phoebus
Shady Green Tree
Gay Ploughboy
John White
Jolly Joe the Collier's Son
Mathew the Miller
Molly and William =False-hearted William
My Good Old Man
Oh dear how I long to get married
Old Woman's Song
The Roving Bachelor
Seven months I've been married
Shopkeeper
Harry Clifton's Watercresses
Young Johnny/Roger the Ploughboy

Reinhard, Can you confirm 'PB's Jolly Roving Tar is Roud 913 please?

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: zozimus
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:53 PM

Hi Steve,
Just wondered if you got all the recorded references you wanted and when will the book hit the shelves. If I'm not too late, I just came across a recording of "Bunch of Watercresses" by O.J. Abbott on an album called "Irish and British Songs from Ottawa Valley" Folkways FM 4051. The lyrics are the same as in the first edition of "The Wanton Seed" which I was lucky enough to get a loan of.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

I missed this thread first time round. I too would like to know if the new book is available.

Subject: RE: Help:recordings,refs, trad songs;English
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

My part in the bargain, the notes to the songs, are with EFDSS. Derek is currently trying to find the corrections to the first edition supposed to have been completed by Malcolm. I believe the tunes/scores and their notes are also completed. I'm sorry but these things do take time.

Hopefully Derek will jump in with the latest update.