Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: IanA
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 02:32 PM

"Yes, afraid you are, Ian."

Look, I confessed voluntarily, OK? No need to rub it in. I seek enlightenment - can you imagine Socrates saying to Plato: "Look here, dumb cluck...."? I'm going away now, to sulk in a corner and, possibly, consume a worm or two. You'll all be sorry when I'm dead. ;-)

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:45 PM

Martin Carthy certainly used guitar extremely skillfully. When did he first come on the scene? (I'm pretty ignorant) Were there any before him? ===

Yes, afraid you are, Ian. Answer is late-50s,& there were literally 100s before Martin; he was, as you say, exceptionally skilful, & introduced several new tunings & single-string techniques, &c; but basically he simply jumped on an already rushing bandwagon ~~ long preceded by Burl Ives [far more influential guitar-wise than Seeger]; by the skifflers; by the lady who sang to Cecil Sharp in the Appalachians with guitar accompt in the 20s (one of the few genuine traditional accompd singers); & by Elton Hayes over here, who appeared about same time as early Ives ~~ ("Hayes took up the guitar shortly before World War II when he accepted one as security from a friend who had borrowed 30 shillings. Guitars would cause his later fame, accompanying him while he sang old English folk songs and ballads" [Wikipedia]). Then, also pre-Carthy, there were Henry Morris, the McEwen brothers Rory & Alex, Nancy Whiskey, Robin Hall, Jimmie McGregor, Steve Benbow ... all beat Carthy to it by at least 2 & up to 5 years.

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:29 PM

We bite because we opened the page in the first place just idly looking for something to do for a few minutes, Murray.

I call that a symbiotic relationship. ;-) If the "troll" is providing the fish with tasty bait, and the fish suffer no harm in taking it, what's the problem with that?

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:22 PM

Some of the climber Alastair Borthwick's writings mention singing folk-songs in Scottish Youth Hostels to guitar and mouth-organ accompaniment the year the SYHA got going....1932 IIRC. So the guitar had made at least some inroads in the UK well before WW2.

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM

I bet Burl Ives had more influence in England for accompanying folk songs on guitar than anyone else - early 50s, pre-dated skiffle. Perhaps also more commonly heard than the Weavers in UK.
Derek

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:08 AM

There were a number of 78 rpm recordings (usually under the auspices of the EFDSS) od Source singers singing to guitar accompanoment in the late forties/ early fifties .
And the Early collectors were mostly collecting from impoverished elderly singers who couldnt afford ANY instruments !

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: IanA
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:00 AM

Well done. Archie Fisher was playing in the early 60s, if not the late 50s. He says he was influenced by the Weavers...

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 07:33 PM

Fishy Folk eh?

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 07:15 PM

amazing how they throw the hook out and so many bite ...

every time, never fails ...

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 07:00 PM

AS someone who spent quite some time in that vein LH, (perhaps 'vain' also maybe), trust me, they are certainly neater to listen to than play.... which is why instruments have constantly been 'modernised' to make them easier to perform expressively with...

.... sackbutt I'll just leave the bladder pipe alone thanks....

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:15 PM

Defensive? Naw...just having a little fun, Ian, that's all. ;-) I think those 1300s instruments would be pretty neat to listen to.

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: IanA
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:33 PM

I sense several defensive replies here....

I have my own preference/ bias/ prejudice but I'm not being judgemental. I am thinking of recordings made by Vaughan-Williams, Grainger, et al in the early 20th century and I am coming at it from a British perspective.

I nearly always sing unaccompanied but using 'instruments used in 1300' has an appeal. Gemshorn, symphonie and vielle for me.

Martin Carthy certainly used guitar extremely skillfully. When did he first come on the scene? (I'm pretty ignorant) Were there any before him?

Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:04 PM

Of course a guitar can work as accompaniment to the voice - but some singers seem to use the voice to accompany the guitar - which, to my mind, is not ideal ...

Personally, though, I prefer that banjo for accompanying folk songs - it works for me - not sure why.

Subject: RE: Guitars???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:41 PM

I object to the characterisation of all guitar work as "strumming". Even chordwork is not all strumming.

But, let's face it, with most inexperienced singers, an instrument to help the singer stay in tune and in time is a very useful thing.

Subject: RE: Guitars???
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:06 PM

Blame skiffle - in the 50s.
Suddenly every kid wanted a guitar! And a lot of cheap instruments were suddenly available.
Prior to that we had a variety of instruments - piano, violin, accordion etc as well as a few guitars as backing instruments, and of course, singing unaccompanied.
I think American folkies took to guitar as lead instrument long before the British, especially in the 30s-40s but sometime after the war it really took off in other countries.
The recording industry had a lot to do with it and people sang all types of songs - music hall, hill billy, cowboy, popular etc. Tin pan alley, parlour guitars, availability of printed music all ahd something to do with it.
Then we discovered 'folk' and we all bought guitars so we could sing folksongs and be folksingers!
I blame Pete Seeger.
Luv ya Pete. XXX
Robyn

Subject: RE: Guitars???
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:54 PM

Ian, the "old recordings of folk songs" you've been listening to cannot have been representative of all folk music, nor even (as suggested by Midchuck) of all "English-language" folk music. Unless, of course, you are azmong those who consider the vernacular language of the USA to be something other than English, which is (I suppose) a nearly-legitimate opinion.

Guitar accompaniment of song in the US may be "new" in terms of geological time, but it certainly predates recording technology.

I find the anti-guitar contingent among eastern-hemisphere folkies to be pretty amusing. My favorite bit of illogical instrumental prejudice: the Irish traddies who accept the Greek bouzouki as an acceptable "Irish" instrument, but who will not countenance the presence of the dreaded, evil, Spanish guitar. (Some might not even let you into the pub with a guitar case, even if you promise not to open it!)

I understand that some folks might hope to prevent the intrusion of pop-music influences by excluding guitar players. They should realize that some bouzouki players might very well present the same danger! (I had hoped to find, and provide, a link to Beth Patterson playing Led Zeppelin or something on her 'zook, but apparently she has been careful to post only legitimate "folk" stuff to her YouTube channel.)

Subject: RE: Guitars???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:00 PM

If you wish to sing accompanied only by instruments used in 1300, Ian...no one is stopping you. ;-)

Subject: RE: Guitars???
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:52 PM

What old recordings?

Guitars have been accompanying folk singers since well before recording was invented - maybe not your preferred stuff but then again folk is a diverse animal! although some narrow minded people on this site want people to belive that folk is only what THEY say it is!

Playing guitar is what introduces a lot of people to the genre

Subject: RE: Guitars???
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:50 PM

Make that "...old recordings of English-language folk songs..."

Spanish-speaking countries have always been heavy on guitar.

The instrument got into North American song by drifting up from Mexico. The cliche of the cowboy singing for his herd and strumming a guitar has some truth to it; the early western US cattle business borrowed lot from Mexico.

It spread over the US from there. Probably got back to the British Isles the long way around, I shouldn't wonder.

Peter

Subject: RE: Guitars???
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:46 PM

I like some unaccompanied songs, but too many in a row get tedious. The guitar lends another dimension.It should not, however, overpower the lyrics.

Subject: Guitars???
From: IanA
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:42 PM

Listen to the old recordings of folk songs and none of them are accompanied by the guitar. Sometime, somewhere, someone must have made the inspired/ lamentable (delete one) decision that they would be immeasurably improved by strumming along. Who do we thank/ blame (delete one)?

A. Capella Esq.