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Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment)
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Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Bernard Date: 10 Apr 10 - 08:33 AM It could well be linked to the rise of the folk club, but to what extent would probably be difficult to prove. Certainly it is still the predominant instrument on a Singers' Night at our club (We average over twenty singers). Coming in second would be the unaccompanied singer, with the odd one or two choosing other instruments. "however,I do believe that it is easier to sing them well unacompanied,for the simple reason that the singer has only one thing to concentrate on [the interpretation of the song]" Rather a sweeping generalisation... Yes, it may well hold good for those who are less than comfortable playing an instrument - such as those who ask for 'the chords to...'. If you're really comfortable with the instrument, you can play seemingly without having to think about it. It may also be valid for those who are not comfortable playing and singing at the same time. However, I feel that there is a significant number of us who are both comfortable with our instruments AND with singing whilst playing. Those of us in the latter category often do not even need to work out an accompaniment in advance, as we can easily sing whilst the accompaniment works itself out independantly. Okay, that's probably not how it actually happens, but that's how it feels. I've never found an accompaniment (guitar, banjo, mandolin, accordion, English and Anglo concertina) hinders my interpretation and expression of a song, in fact it often helps - the two become one. That said, there are songs I sing unaccompanied, simply because I prefer the song that way. Similarly, there are songs which I will accompany with one instrument in preference to the others, because that's how it 'sounds right' to me. We're all different, we all have our own likes and dislikes, and the world is a better place for it. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: GUEST,Florian Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:28 AM The parochial Anglocentrism of certain Mudcat posters becomes quite wearying, especially when combined with a fetish for some elusive notion of 'authenticity'. Britain is merely one outpost of the folk universe; if the use of the guitar was successfully imported from other traditions, what's the point of complaining about its subsequent prevalence? Instruments cannot be disapproved out of existence. Obviously, accompaniments (on guitar as on any other instrument) can be lazy or monotonous, but that's a different discussion. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Mavis Enderby Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:59 AM Well said Guest Florian. I found this quite interesting for example. Pete. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Suegorgeous Date: 10 Apr 10 - 07:43 PM Any guitarists looking to do folksong accompaniment... I'm still looking for one (in Bristol UK). Sue |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: GUEST,CS Date: 10 Apr 10 - 07:56 PM I have honestly wondered 'Why' myself sometimes, when at a Folk Song Session where 90% of the contributors use guitar. As a relative newbie to traditional folk (but not to rock & pop genres), it was both surprising and a bit of a let down to me to discover guitars everywhere you look as I assumed something a bit different to what I was used to elsewhere. But was wrong! I grew up with guitars, I even have about five in my own bloody house. I think I was hoping for something a bit different to what I was so used to! No kidding, just stuff I've inherited somehow. Honestly, bring in the dulcimer, the mandolin, the fiddle, the anything else ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Bernard Date: 10 Apr 10 - 08:47 PM I do, I do!! ;o) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: GUEST,ollaimh Date: 10 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM i have to say that i have never run into traditionalist irish who like the bouzouki and won't allow guitar. my experience is some won't allow any fretted stringed instruments. they do not appear in older irish music, however they have a big part in the revival. the bouzouki does have a celtic provanance of sorts by the way. scotts played the english guitar and other citterns right back to the early renaisance. the bouzouki was a cheap and available instrument that filled that role in the revival along with the portuguese guitar. you'll find as bands got richer the guitarras and bouzoukia were often put aside for luthier made modern citterns to fill that roll. in ireland there were no such instruments of any number but they picked uo the sound, especially after sweeneys men tried bringing the mandolin sound of bluegrass into modern irish. a return of the american scottish irish rooted tradition back to the homeland. people loved it and hence the double strung fretted instruments took off like crazy. however traditionalists were not amused and still will gold sessiuns where you can't play a fretted instrument. me i'n cape breton gaelic, so i don't feel any problem with adding fretted instruments including the guitar. in the trip over the water we lost all the traditional instruments except the fiddle and bagpipes. the early clearances and homesteading was rough so they were mostly illiterate and played little music that couldn't be kept in your head. so i a way the traditionalist singers were un accompanied but only by force, as son as they got the werewith all to get more instrument they played them, guitar and piano were common as they were easily available and complimented the music. the idea that accapella is more traditional is neo traditionalists trying to make a virtue out of necessity. the musically challenged can't play very well so they say no one did. the real reason they played solo was poverty plain and simple in england and the celtic countries. most people started playing instruments as soon as they could get them. that same neo traditionalist thing led to wierd notions. childe once visited the west coast of ireland in the midst of the gealic revival and said "i found much filigree and orniment but little that you could call music" pure class and ethnic bigotry. he wanted his folk to fit a preconcieved idea and he didn't collect songs that didn't fit it. such as songs of working class rebellion and struggle and songs that were bawdy and i assure you the clts were never as parsimoniuos as the english. in canada helen creighten was similar. she ignored songs of poverty and class revolt in english. she couldn't speak gaelic or french so when she collected the franco-gaelic songs she included the bawdy and revolutionary as she didn't know it was there and her early translators didn't inform her they just collected them separately or didn't translate them. she was trying the find a folk music that reflected her south halifax bourgeoise world view. those atacking the guitar as non traditional are doing the same thing |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: meself Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:04 PM Helen Creighton did great work. And she did not do anything to prevent anyone else going out and finding the songs that she had missed or neglected. Don't blame her if no one could be bothered. ------------- Speaking of Helen Creighton, these lines are from Jolly Roving Tar (not the sing-along song of the same title), a song she collected: Oh, many's the pleasant evening my love and I did pass, With many's the jovial sailor lad and many's the fair, young lass, With a fiddler sweetly playing, likewise a wild guitar, I went hand in hand together with my jolly roving tar. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: meself Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:05 PM I can't remember where that's published; it's not in Songs & Ballads of NS. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: GUEST,Andrew Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM All the truly GREAT folk legends played Guitar as first choice as accompaniment. Bob Dylan Donovan Woody Guthrie Phil Ochs Roy Harper Richard Thompson Roger McGuinn. The cittern, Luet, Bazouki etc are inferior curiosities that floundered in the survival of the fittest. Piano is probably one of the better accompaniment instruments but not suitable for the folky masses becausr of it's size. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Bernard Date: 11 Apr 10 - 12:37 PM What about... John Kirkpatrick (Melodeon, Anglo concertina) Dave Swarbrick (Fiddle, mandolin) Alastair Anderson (English Concertina) Sara Grey (5 string banjo) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Edthefolkie Date: 11 Apr 10 - 02:27 PM Samuel Pepys on the guitar...August 5, 1667 "After done with the Duke of York, and coming out through his dressing room, I there spied Signor Francisco tuning his guitar, and Monsieur de Puy, with him who did make him play to me which he did most admirably - so well that I was mightily troubled that all that pains should have been taken upon so bad an instrument" Mind you a guitar tutor (don't know if it was "Play In A Day" by Albertus Weedonensis) is still preserved among his papers and he mentions "Barbary Allen" in the diary. So he may have get fed up with tuning lutes and taken his guitar, and no doubt Deb Willetts, to the Restoration equivalent of a session. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: MGM·Lion Date: 11 Apr 10 - 02:53 PM But when Pepys mentions the actress Mrs Knipps' singing of Barbara Allen, he doesn't IIRC, mention what accompt, if any, she used. I mention again however that, precisely 100 years after that, Goldsmith has a character, the hero's daughter, in his The Vicar Of Wakefield (1766), who frequently sings to the her own guitar accompaniment to universal appreciation. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: kendall Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM I used to wonder how Nero could play an instrument that had not yet been invented. Then it dawned on me, it's a metaphor. I've heard some singers who could stay on key and in time without an instrument, but folkies are usually not that well trained. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: IanA Date: 12 Apr 10 - 06:05 AM Of course, a mid-eighteenth century guitar would not be a guitar as we know it today and I imagine (though I don't know) that Goldsmith's character was not singing 'John Barleycorn'. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:47 AM a mid-eighteenth century guitar would not be a guitar as we know it today Why not? If it had frets, tuning pegs, a neck, a body, and a sound hole, I suspect it would be recognisable as such. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Bernard Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:36 AM Perhaps it might need strings?! Sorry, couldn't resist! The strings would be gut rather than steel wire (late 19th C), but otherwise pretty much the same I would think. Okay, the style of performance would be different, too, but that applies to many instruments - woodwind (particularly flute and clarinet) were significantly different prior to the introduction of the Boehm system (mid 19th C). I reckon I'd be able to play a guitar from circa 1750 without any bother, but the flute or clarinet from that era would be much more of a challenge! |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: meself Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM Folkie: Will I be able to play this circa 1750 guitar without any bother? Musicologist: Certainly! Folkie: That's great - I've always wanted to play guitar! Ba-da-da bing! |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Edthefolkie Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:16 PM IanA has a point though. I believe the instrument called a guitar in Pepys' era had five strings but that's a century before MgM's Goldsmith reference. My jokey reference to Sam Pepys going to sessions with Deb was wrong anyway because I don't think his servant Deb Willet (not Willetts) appeared until a year after the guitar reference in the Diary. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: Stringsinger Date: 12 Apr 10 - 02:16 PM The guitar was known in Spain. The Viheula predates the Cittern which was featured more in Elizabethan music. We don't really know when the guitar came in as an accompaniment instrument for folk music. And which folk music? Songs accompanied by stringed instruments were found all over the world. The guitar seems more prevalent in Spanish music. There was also an instrument called the Guitar Double. Leadbelly's twelve string guitar was a later incarnation. The Andalusian caves employed Spanish Gypsy guitar playing called Flamenco. When it moved into 1920's country music, it became steel-strung. Influences in ragtime shaped a finger-picking and flat-piick style in Blues and Country. This is what went over to England and was called Skiffle based on Afro-American Jug Bands. Lonnie Donegan popularized Leadbelly's songs. Ewan McColl, Alan Lomax and Peggy Seeger had a notable influence in the popularity of the guitar in the Folk Revival. So did Jack Elliott who made Woody's songs popular. A lot of what is called folk music is composed and accompanied. The point of all of this is that there is no one around today who is able to pinpoint exactly when the guitar became a folk song accompaniment instrument. As for traditional ballad singing, only those songs who fell into the category that interested collectors such as Sharp and Child were mostly unaccompanied. Sharp considered the five-string banjo as "bowlderized" in the way that folkies today would consider the electric guitar. There is no pure style of folksong. There are only historical examples promoted by musicologists and folklorists with their specific interests and agendas. As a result, it's really impossible to set a precedent in how a folk song should or shouldn't be accompanied. There is a point, though, that in order to accompany a folk song tastefully with the guitar, some knowledge of performance or background historically is important. In my opinion, accompaniments should generally be sparse as to not interfere with song but this falls under the definition of "musicianship". |
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Subject: RE: Guitars??? (as folksong accompaniment) From: IanA Date: 12 Apr 10 - 02:21 PM Correct - earlier guitars had nine or ten strings in five courses. The tunings varied widely too. Frets were gut as well as the strings. |
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