Learning The Guitar: Frustration

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM

On the subject of getting stuck:

It would nice to never get stuck and some people may have this ability. However, for mere mortals, the next best thing is to learn how to avoid getting stuck and to know how to to get unstuck when it happens.

I think the best way to do these things is to learn to play by ear.

Theoretically, if you can hum, whistle or sing a tune, you can play it on the guitar (at least the melody). In practice, most people who aren't blessed with perfect pitch have trouble doing this. The reason for most people is that they've practiced all kinds of other things, but never this most basic skill.

I've found that it's mostly a matter of intuition with some knowledge involved. Any knowledge is good, but all the knowledge in the world won't do you any good unless you have the intuition. On the other hand, there have always been people without much knowledge but loads of intuition, and some of these people are among the best instrumentalists. (I believe a lot of people like this have perfect pitch.) Just to be clear, intuition isn't some magical thing that only the chosen few have: everybody has it, some more, some less. It needs to be exercised, though.

The way to practice playing by ear couldn't be simpler: just sit down and try to figure out the melody of any song. This is something that has helped me a lot in recent years and I've gotten pretty good at it (though not perfect).

Some people memorize by visualizing the notes; I used to memorize by motor memory. I can't speak for people who visualize, but with motor memory, it's easy to get stuck and a matter of luck to get unstuck. However, I hardly ever forget how a melody goes and when I play by ear, I might make mistakes because I can't do it perfectly, but I hardly ever get stuck. What sometimes happens is that I forget what tune I'm playing, especially if I'm improvising (something I still don't do as well as I'd like to), but that's simply a matter of not paying attention to what I'm doing.

My recommendation for what to practice is: major scales. All over the fingerboard until you know them inside and out. And say the names of the notes out loud when you're playing them. Otherwise, it's just a mechanical exercise. Also, all kinds of arpeggios. These things will help a lot with learning to play by ear.

As far as harmony goes, one does develop a sense of what chords go with a section of melody. Again, it's a combination of intuition and knowledge. Just sit down and try to figure out the chords to some song or other. You're not a pharmacist; it doesn't have to be perfect. The chords to folk and rock songs are almost always pretty easy to figure out.

There's no getting around it: Building up a repertoire is real work and takes time. However, it's much more effective to learn songs by learning the melody and the harmonies rather than specific chord forms (a.k.a. voicings), picking patterns, licks, riffs, or whatever. If you can play a melody by ear and develop your intuition and knowledge about harmony, you can sort of "reproduce" the song at any time.

I have also found it to be true that I eventually began to pick more freely, whereas I remember being "stuck" picking in patterns and didn't understand how to break out of them. Eventually, it just happened. I'm not really convinced of the value of pattern-picking; on the other hand, I did it a lot in the past, so maybe it was useful to me.

One thing I'm sure has helped me is playing chord melodies, that is, playing the melody on the higher strings and finding voicings for the chords in those positions. This will take you all over the fingerboard and also helps a lot with knowing what the individual notes are in the various chord forms.

One thing you could practice is playing the melody on the higher strings while alternating the tonic and the fifth on the lower strings with your thumb. It will be difficult at first, but I think this is a good way of learning to pick more freely. Then, it will be easier to make it fancier.

I hope these comments are of some use to you.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

For those interested, there is a guitar day at Fishguard, Pembs with Gareth Pearson. Looks great value with workshops, open mic and concert for £10
http://www.aberjazz.com/2010/html/bios-extras.html

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:01 AM

I tried learning guitar from the Mel Bay folk guitar book. It wasn't working. I had had a few piano lessons and knew a little theory, just like you, Rob.

I went back the music store and bought a classical guitar book. With it, I was able to understand the instrument better and to build the chord I wanted by placing one finger at a time. Thus, I could play arpeggios well before I could strum.

Rob, you mentioned playing tunes. Were you aware that a classical guitarist thinks of a scale as being a block of frets within a small area of the neck? In the folk world there is a kind of playing called 'Carter style' which goes way up and down the neck, and I suspect it's actually pretty inefficient.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:42 AM

Like I said earlier in this thread, do what you can do well at least some of the time as a reward for pushing yourself to imprint the new stuff...

BTW, I've played many a private party in my day and you wouldn't believe how many people come up to me and say, "Gee, I tried to learn guitar but I never got anywhere with it..." to which I say...

"Well, if you can half-way sing I can have you doing a song in 5 minutes..."

I've had a few of them take me up on it and I find a quiet spot with them and show them how to make a 1st position Em chord which everyone with two fingers can do and then I show them how to just strum down the strings (no back picking or struming, just simple down, down, down over the strings with their fingernail... Then I give them a couple verses of Bob Dylan's "Ballad of Hollis Brown" and...

...WALAA!!!

They are doing a song and accompanying themselves on geetar...

The lesson here is that "even a caveman" can do it...lol...

But really... Just imprint a few songs that you find easy and add to them... No one was born knowing how to play these things...

Good luck and if it ain't fun, don't do so...

...make it fun!!!

B~

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM

Leeneia, the perpetual GUEST ;^): My understanding of "Carter style" (which may or may not be entirely correct) is that it involves a lot of "boom-chucks" (bass-string-plus-chord), with the on-the-beat "bass" notes providing the melody, or an approximation of a song's melody ~ AND that it played mostly in first position, not all up-and-down the neck.

Also, blues (and blues/rock) players, as well as classical players, "think of a scale as being a block of frets within a small area of the neck." Of course, the more rudimentary approaches to the blues rely upon a simple five-notes-per-octave scale, while classical music involves a wide variety of different major/minor/modal scales.

**********

Rob: We all have different "learning styles," and what works/worked for me might not be the best apprach for you. But you can probably learn something from each person's suggestions.

I learned the hard way that, for me, it was not really possible to mentally grasp a relatively-complicated passage or riff first, and then to expect that my hands could follow. For me, it was necessary to first ~ slowly and laboriously ~ train my fingers to actually move as desired, gradually gaining speed and dexterity, and only much later become able to "think" a variation or improvisation and have the fingers repond to the imagination.

I am thinking mostly about the problem of mentally and physically "separating" a steady bass-string beat with the thumb while adding a layer of melody with the fingers. It took me years of playing strictly structured "patterns," and entire memorized verses of songs, before I slowly began to find an ability to throw in a few upper-register grace notes of my own while keeping up the steady bass. I had been persuaded that I "should" have been able to play more freely on the high notes while thumping along on the bass, found that I could not do it, and gave up, resigning myself to sticking with what I was able to learn by rote. Only after continued practice/playing within my perceived limitations did I eventually develop a bit more fluidity and freedom.

So ~ DON'T "give up," just keep playing as well as you can. Sooner or later, you ought to begin finding skills that you had previously never expected.

And, like Bobert just pointed out, don't "punish" yourself by devoting all your time to practicing difficult stuff. It may seem critically important to keep challenging yourself with new tasks requiring increased skills, but it's just as important to keep playing simple and familiar pieces freely and easily.

If you hope to eventually master the difficult stuff and play it with appropriate personality and musicality (i.e., freely), it's just as important to maintain your practice of playing "easy" pieces well as it is to work on the difficult pieces that you can play only slowly and laboriously. That's the best way to maintain your ability to play with a fresh and pleasurable feeling.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM

Start simple is my advice. Start with some country or blues songs, with three chords. Get the rhythm down, just strumming, no need to get so fancy yet- and in time add more complicated songs to your playlist. Don't bust yourself up, it's all for fun.

And find a GOOD teacher, one who's patient and intuitive to work with. I DO think it's harder to learn something new when you're older, but you can certainly learn to play guitar better.

Playing with others is also a helpful inspiration, join a slow jam or music club that has song circles. Watching other players, besides listening to them, will get you going in no time. And if all else fails, try playing the harmonica- you can hit a wrong note, but you can never hit a bad note.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:13 AM

Once again, thanks everyone for keeping the encouragement coming.

Mike L2: The original frustration that I felt *came* from practicing....the fact that I could get something right 10-12 times and them next time I tried it I'd be "Mr Fumble Fingers". I wasn't talking about the situation Will describes above where you start practicing and quickly realise that it's a "non musical" day so best give up and try later, but a day when things are going OK.

I do split practices into chunks where I work for a while on something new, or that I'm finding difficult, and then play somthing I'm comfortable with.

Tangledwood: Yeah, it's good to challenge yourself...but can be frustrating. I think I's slowly starting to learn to art of sussing out what's "possible" for me now and what's "wait a year or two before trying that again"! Things will hopefully go better once I'm better "calibrated" when looking at whether something's within or near my current capabilities.

On the practice front, I'm probably not doing enough scales. I'll do a few to warm up usually, and then go straight into a piece. I think a major change I'm going to make is to really get to grips with scales and learn the fingerboard as well as I can. It's very patchy at the moment.

Piers Plowman: Some excdllent tips, thanks!

I've been trying to play by ear for a while...often cheating a bit by learning from a YouTube video so I can see fingers as well :-) . I can pick up basic melodies, but sorting out chord sequences or complex fingering and getting them to sound right is something I'm finding hard. Incidentally I'm finding it much easier to pick up melodies using my new octave mandolin. The tuning intervals seem to "suit my ear better" somehow But there's a big difference between picking up the melody to, say, Ashokan Farewell on the mando and picking up the middle guitar solo that Russ Barenberg does on "Drummers of England"....I'm STILL struggling with that after months, although I can play the basic melody (as per Will Fly's YouTube vid) no problem.

I defintiely use motor memory rather than visualisation.

Leenia: I'm aware of the "block of frets approach...I've just not been very systematic until now in applying it :-(

Bobert: Oh, it's fun, definitely, mostly. And a huge sense of achievement when I finally crack something that's been giving me problems. Bashing out chords I can do, and I'm now starting to sing and bash chords at the same time...even in public a few times now.

It's what I call "real" guitar playing that's been frustrating me: the style Will describes so well above. I think that I just have to realise that ability to play like that ( Will F: Playing a more complex fingerpicked tune - i.e. where the melodic line is not tied rhythmically or harmonically to the rhythm or the chord pattern ) is something that'll take years to develop properly, not the scant 2 that I've been playing. I think, looking back at my OP on this thread, that I probably had unrealistic expectations of where I "should" be after 2 years of averaging an hour a day practice. Many posts here have reassured my that I'm probably at a pretty reasonable skill level for the time I've been playing. So that's reduced my frustration immediately :-)

Poppagator: Again, great advice, thanks. I'm definitely at the "slowly and laboriously training my fingers" stage...but now more accepting that this is probably normal for many, rather than me being a uniquely incompetent learner :-)

Lefthanded guitar: I've been playing for a couple of years, and straightforward chord-bashing is OK for me (thoygh I still need to improve rhythm patern strumming). It's the more complex fingerstyle stuff that's been bothering me. I've had a few lessons, with 2 different teachers, but I've found that I do better on my own...certainly once I discovered the on-line tutorials that Will Fly and a few others do, although I have picked up some really good tips from my most recent teacher.

And I have started playing at singarounds. The first couple were a disaster, but the nerves are starting to come under control a bit now, and the last session was much better (though I still fumbled a bit). I'm actually looking forward to the next one now, rather than worrying about it :-)

Thanks, everyone. I'll try and record a few more pieces next week and put them on esnips to get some critical feedback.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM

Playing up and down on a single string is good. Position playing is also good.

Playing up and down on a single string is good for a number of reasons. The best one is: It sounds good. Each string has its own timbre, so if you play a melody on a single string the notes will sound more alike than if you play them on different strings.

The next best one is: It feels great. Just try it!

It's also good because the intervals are right there in front of you, all you have to do is look.

I think it's also easier to play spontaneously on a single-string than using positions, though that gets easier with practice.

By the way, it helps a lot to whistle, hum or sing when improvising or playing by ear. It makes it easier to hit the right notes, for some reason. I do this occasionally.

The ability to play on a single string is very useful when you have to (or want to) make a long jump and also for shifting positions.

Also, if a string breaks while you're playing, you can cope a lot better if you can play up and down single strings. If you only know to play using positions, you're in trouble.

One thing to try is playing an E major scale (or some other scale) _smoothly_ from the low end of the guitar up to the highest notes. It works best to shift a position or two at a time, instead of playing as much as possible in first position and then trying to get into a higher position in one go. And then back down, of course.

Playing up and down single strings (or several single strings, if you know what I mean) is the way melodies are usually played with a slide.

I usually play a mixture of positions and going up and down single strings. I don't really have to think about it anymore (though I do have to practice because I don't always hit the right notes).

Major scales are good because the chords built from the major scale are the basis of harmony. If you know the major scales inside and out, it's not very difficult to learn other scales. I find that it's not really necessary to learn dozens of other scales if you can play by ear. If you know the major scales and the various arpeggios, you will have already mastered this material. Constructing other scales is sort of just expressing the same things in a different way.

That is, if you know the major scales and the various possible alterations, flatted fifth, augmented fifth, minor third, etc., and are able to hear things in your head and play what you hear in your head on the guitar, you've got the information and the skills you need. Then, when you're playing, you can forget about positions, scales, argeggios and whatever. I'd heard this idea before, but it took me years before I got it.

People say you have to crawl before you can walk, but it is also true that if a person can already walk, or even run, you're not helping him by making him crawl, even if it's the newest, most modern, up-to-date method of crawling developed by an elite team of music educators.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

About positions:

I suggest that you try thinking of it this way:

If you put your hand on the fingerboard, you can cover four adjacent frets on each string with your first, second, third and fourth fingers. This is a minor third, e.g., on the sixth string from the first fret, F, F#, G and Ab. If we allow shifting, we can get up to A, which is a major third. On the next string over, the note on the first fret is Bb, which is the fourth of F and by an amazing coincidence, the next note in F maj. after the A under our little finger on the sixth string.

In this position (frets 1 through 5 with a single shift), we can play seven major scales: On the sixth string, the scales starting with the notes F at fret 1, G at fret 3 (with the shift), A at fret 5. Then on the fifth string, Bb at fret 1, C at fret 3 and D at fret 5.
On the fourth string, just Eb at fret 1. That's seven scales.

Now, shift down a fret and do the same thing starting at Gb. We get seven scales again: Gb, Ab and Bb on the sixth string, B Db and Eb on the fifth and E on the fourth.

That's a total of 14 scales, with two duplicates, namely Bb and Eb:

F G A Bb C D Eb
Gb Ab Bb B Db Eb E

Rearranged a leaving out the duplicates:

F Gb G Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb E

That's all there are, since F# and Gb, C# and Db, etc., are the same on the guitar.

So, in a single position, you can play 7 major scales and in the next position you can also play seven major scales and you end up with all twelve of the major scales in any two adjacent positions with no more than a single shift for any of these scales. Isn't that amazing?

But wait, there's more! For a given key, say, C, you can play the major scale in all of these seven forms. Depending on the key, it will be in a different place on the fingerboard, and spread out from low to high.

Many other scales fit in with this pattern and just vary with respect to a few intervals. The natural minor and other modes use exactly the same fingerings but use different tones as the tonic. Some other scales don't fit this pattern, especially symmetrical scales and/or ones that repeat every few frets like the whole-tone, half-whole and whole-half scales.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:34 AM

I really should clock back in and do some work, but funnily enough I'd rather post on Mudcat. Go figure.

Two years really isn't a very long time. I started learning to play the guitar when I was 20 and I am now 47. I didn't play very well after 2 years. Of course, it isn't the years that count, it's the hours, but you are putting in the hours. So, don't worry. Sure, one learns better when one is younger and you've got physical problems with your hands and arms. These are things we can't do much about. I have nearly constant pain in my hands but it's manageable at present and I expect that I'll be able to keep playing the guitar. We all just have to learn to work within our limitations and see where we can maybe do a bit more than we think we can.

Learning the fingerboard is hard work. There are some places where I know without thinking what the note is and places where I have to stop and figure it out. I play a classical guitar without dots on the fretboard, which makes things more difficult. I think dots are great. Some people may look down on fretboard dots, but looking back, I don't really believe that learning to play without them has made me a better person.

When I'm playing by ear or improvising (which are really just two sides of the same coin), I often don't know what notes I'm playing, but I do know what sounds I'm trying to make and (when I'm playing well), these are the ones that I'm playing. One's different skills work together, motor memory, having played from the written music and remembering it partially, knowing scales and arpeggios, music theory, whatever. It's like having a bag of tricks and being able to pick the one you need at any given moment. So, you don't have to perfect in any one discipline.

Anyway, I hope these long postings of mine are of some use to you (and possibly others). Please try not to be frustrated. It's easier to get fast results with a guitar than with many other instruments, but when one tries to play more than just simple accompaniments it's not an easy instrument.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

"It's like having a bag of tricks and being able to pick the one you need at any given moment."

Actually, it's more like the right one leaping by itself into your hand at the right moment.