Learning The Guitar: Frustration

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:50 PM

Finger pickin' is all rote memory... Do the tunes you can do by doing what you say you can do well and that is mashing out chords... Fine...

Then in private work on yer finger pickin'...

What happens with all musicans who continue to work on the rote memory of finger pickin' is simple: One day yer pickin' hand will just tell you to "fuck off"... That's right... It will decalre it's independence and from then on it will do what it knows to do and you will have almost no control of it... And guess what??? That's a good thing... But the onoly way there is to practice, practice, practice... Ain't no easy ways... No shortcuts... Just do it and until then mash out chords if ya' gotta perform or jam... We all did it this way, believe me...

b~

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Nick
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:29 PM

oh and Tommy Emmanuel is an astonishing player who makes it look so so easy.

Watch his hands and the touch of his right hand and the rhythm and the lightness and strength is something that is all about practice and love. He loves every note he plays and has so much technique - like this Is this frustration or practice

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Nick
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:15 PM

sorry forgot to mention I've been 28 twice now

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Nick
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:14 PM

I sat in a session tonight next to someone who 'doesn't play the flute' and she was awfully good.

I've seen Will Fly on the internet and Leadfingers in real time.

You may be much better than all of us but words can't express.

If you can do it - and want to - post something for criticism. You'll know if it's your super best or how you normally play or worse than you play. People are very nice but also very honest here.

It doesn't get easier over time.

You hit plateaus(x?) and decide whether you want to stay there or keep climbing. I'm still climbing over the next few that I can see and then I'll get serious when I get to the next new bit

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Tangledwood
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:04 PM

What I'm really looking for, I suppose, is some reassurance that it'll get better/ easier over time. Or a reality check that says if I haven't cracked it in 2 years I'm not going to! I practice on average about an hour a day.

What you are attempting to do sounds a little more demanding than what I am now trying. I bought my first guitar in 1973. After years of frustration, and due to different interests, I gave it up for about twenty years then start up again at the age of - 54. Now, at 57, I'm further ahead than I had ever been, but still get frustrated at the time taken to memorize tunes.

For a long time I stuck with fingerpicking arpeggios as accompaniment to singing. Nothing flash but it sounds OK. Now I'm attempting to extend that by just adding a bit more melody in amongst the arpeggios, achieved by being a bit more active with the fretting fingers.

I guess what I'm saying is that you will make progress. Expect a roller-coaster of progress and plateaux. Enjoy the process - you're the only one setting targets and then judging yourself aren't you?

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: GUEST,Will Branch
Date: 14 May 10 - 05:18 PM

Don't let it get you down - I think it takes a long time for a song to settle in for a lot of pickers. I've been playing for about 25 years, and it still takes longer than I think it should for a song to really feel secure. I would recommend focusing on a certain batch of songs, a set, and then playing each song hundreds of times - at jams, with friends, etc. Just remember - when you finally do get a song in your permanent memory, it will probably be there forever.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:51 PM

Rob, if you ever fancy an excursion into deepest Sussex for a jam, just let me know. You know you're more than welcome. :-)

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:18 PM

Leadfingers...yes, and plenty accumulated age-related damage...restricted movement in my right elbow following a break when I fell rock climbing...plus constant pain in it. And the ring and little finger of my left hand numb following ulnar nerve damage. Frostnip damage to several finger tips from ice-climbing, and occasional "A-pulley" tendon strain (usually in the middle finger)when I crimp a hold too hard. I guess I have to face it that my hands are not i great nick for playing sensitively. But there are several 'catters on here who seem to manage despite must more serious injuries to their hands than mine.

Will...Thanks for the input. I guess I've just got to work at the complex fingerpicking. I'm motivated to master it as I think the guitar played (well) in that way sounds magical. When I started, I got an Epiphone Les Paul and was quite happy for a while just learning electric lead parts, but found it really limiting, not having anyone else to play with regularly. Also had regular complaints from the family re amplification.

So I branched out and got an acoustic about a year ago, since when I've hardly touched the Epi! I think the instrument's decent enough for me to learn on at this stage. It's one of the "bottom of range" Mexican-made Martins with the HPL sides and back, but it sounds good, has a decent action and plays quite easily, so good enough for me for now.

It was YouTube videos of Tommy Emmanuel and Andy McKee which really awakened a desire to learn the acoustic, plus wanting to play some "folky" stuff. And then I discovered your YouTube videos, which I'm using quite extensively to learn from now. I like your picking diagrams, even though I usually have to step through them one frame at a time several times before I "get" it!

I do set myself a task, work on it and then relax by playing something easier or that I've already mastered. I guess I started doing that naturally as I realised early on that just flogging at something solidly for an hour would probably turn me right off!

I'll reiterate that your videos are an absolute inspiration and that any generosity on the part of your mentors 40 years ago has been more than repaid by the time and effort you've put into your YouTube lessons. I've got at least 8-10 of them "favourited" at any one time :-)

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:26 PM

Rob - two years is not an overly long time to have been learning. Playing patterned fingerpicking after that time is good going. Playing a more complex fingerpicked tune - i.e. where the melodic line is not tied rhythmically or harmonically to the rhythm or the chord pattern requires a much greater discipline. It often pre-supposes a good chord knowledge up and down the fretboard, and the ability to play both hands independently, as in a piano. On those terms, two years is definitely a very short time!

It's always important to practice to a purpose - to set yourself a task, perhaps a phrase, a few bars, a short tune - and then work on that for a while. Then - stop and relax and play something that's not as taxing.

I personally don't think age necessarily has a real bearing on learning. I think determination, a decent instrument and quality time for practice are the main factors. I also think that playing along with someone who is better than you can be hugely profitable. I was lucky enough, as a young chap (40 years ago) to play with two or three absolute guitar wizards who were very generous with their knowledge. But even playing with someone of the same standard as you can be very rewarding as you each pick up on the other's discoveries.

Keep at it and you will get there.

Subject: RE: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:06 PM

Rob - Even Youngsters develop Musical Skill at different rates and you ARE a tad ourside the Optimum Age for starting an instrument , especially from scratch ! Hand in there mate , and perevere ! All of a sudden it will be there !!

Subject: Learning The Guitar: Frustration
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:47 PM

I've been learning the guitar for about 2 years now (I'm 54). I didn't know much musical theory when I started and I don't know a huge amount more now (a few scales, what chords usually go in which key and I can puzzle out notation given time).

However, what's really frustrating the hell out of me is how LONG it takes me to learn/ imprint a tune...and even when I think I've got it down pat, the next time I play it I can fumble around and make loads of mistakes.

Is this normal for a person at my stage or am I just someone with no talent who's persevering at something I'm not innately suited for? Other people I know (admittedly who've been playing guitar a lot longer than I have) can seem to pick up a tune, and embellish it/ put their own stamp on it quite quickly whereas I can struggle for weeks and still find areas that go wrong for me. For example, it probably took me 2 months, averaging maybe 30 minutes a day, or 30 hours practice time in all, to get a flatpicking version of "The Gael/ Last of the Mohicans" to a point where the mistakes I (still) make on the fast parts are only really noticeable to myself.

I can bash out chords OK, and do some reasonably OK-sounding Pink Floyd/ Camel/ Wishbone Ash-ey type stuff on the electric, but acoustic fingerstyle is frustrating the hell out of me. Repeating patterns are OK...I can handle things like the Martin Carthy version of "Trees They Do Grow High" (though it took me about a month to get even that to "flow" well) but finger picking where the melody line is more complex than a simple repeating pattern is proving very hard for me.

What I'm really looking for, I suppose, is some reassurance that it'll get better/ easier over time. Or a reality check that says if I haven't cracked it in 2 years I'm not going to! I practice on average about an hour a day.