Should good players play out?

Subject: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 03:55 AM

This subject was touched upon briefly in another thread (best English concertina players)but it deserves the full treatment.

I know many very fine players and singers who have no interest in hugging the limelight. They are happy to play for their own amusement and that of their friends or their own community.

Speaking for myself, I play a lot. Most of the time at home with nobody listening, on rare occasions when the time and place seem right I may take out my main instrument and play a bit in a social setting. I don't like being put on the spot, only play at concerts if I can't avoid it. I do enjoy playing with friends but dislike (noisy) pub settings. I have mentioned this in the past on a different forum and had harsh words thrown my way, people actually seemed to get angry at the notion someone would try to avoid the stage.

So, do you feel there's an obligation on musicians and singers to go out and woo the masses, or is it fine to play for one's own amusement and that of friends?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:18 AM

Do what the devil you want to, and why should anyone bother you about it?

Some people enjoy playing for and with others, in public or in private. Others don't. Whatever floats your boat. And no-one has the right to tell you otherwise.

As for getting angry at someone's reluctance to perform - that's sheer daftness.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:20 AM

If you were really reclusive in your enjoyment of music who would know to put pressure on you in the first place?
I think folks should do whatever it is that rocks their boat,from full on whoredom to only ever in the sound proof shed at the bottom of the garden.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM

I don't see why anyone would get *angry* at how you or anyone else chooses to express their musical inclinations.

It's up to you and no-one else's business, unless someone is inflicting musical torture on those unable to escape from it.

The "muzak" played at high volume in our local shopping centre can get me a bit miffed sometimes, but it just means that I only go there for specific things and never brose...the exact opposite of what I suppose the intention is :-)

But as for where and when an individual plays, it's up to them.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:32 AM

In the small part of the traditional music world I know anything about, some of the best and most respected tradition bearers are those who do not seek the limelight and go for publicity, though most are very happy to play with friends, and pass on what they feel may be useful tips to the genuinely interested.

That's why it's still a living tradition. They do it because they enjoy it, "amateurs" in the best sense of that much misused word.

"Professional traditional musician" could be (and is sometimes) said to be an oxymoron.

IMO

Paws

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:34 AM

Its different strokes for different folks !
SOME booked artists at festivals are ONLY ever seen on main stage , while others wander round , chat in the beer tent and join in with sessions - Would any one criticise what they do ?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:40 AM

I'd like to point out I do not intend to make this about myself, I merely used myself as an example as someone I know best. And I agree each person should do what suits themselves.

I am interested in hearing what other people think, especially in the light of comments I have heard that more or less made it feel players have an obligation of sorts to go out and entertain those already interested in their particular type of music and do missionary work among the unenlightened masses.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: banjoman
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:53 AM

I agree that people should do what they feel is ok for them. My youngest son (30 ish) is probably one of the finest guitar players I have ever heard - although I may be biased - but he is content to play solely for his own amusement and is constantly learning new styles - currently practicing a slap and pluck style which he saw on U tube. As for me - I will play my banjo anywhere people will let me

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:19 AM

I don't see why there should be an "obligation" on anyone to play for, entertain or "educate" the "unenlightened". People should just do what they're happy doing.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 06:13 AM

I find I'm much more interested in a player if I've experienced them first-hand in an informal setting, with no mixing desk intervening. Without that, I'm much less likely to buy their CDs. And I appreciate getting close enough to learn something about their technique.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM

It's good for musicians to play together, and there's maybe something missing if a musician never does that. But beyond that, whether there are other people listening is a secondary matter.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM

There's the same thing there, I have heard people call musicians who play together at each other's homes (over a cup of tea, unhurried and in peace and quiet) 'selfish' because they wouldn't be playing in pubs but rather in the privacy of their own homes.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

GUEST Peter Laban - What is the point of your question ? Are you suggesting people should NOT do what they want to do or what ?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM

I enjoy playing at home and I enjoy practising at home,I frequently use a metronome when playing jigs reels hrnpipes etc,when I am practising at home.
I also go out and play/sing for money,and occasionally play and sing for nothing,I enjoy all these activities in different ways.
what I do not enjoy are some of the pillocks on the internet[no one on this thread]who do not put up examples of their music but have the cheek to pontificate about how certain musics have to be played in a particular style.
finally,I think permission should be asked of players before their music is put up on you tube
what players[good excellent mediocre] do as regards playing out is entirely their own business.
players should not feel duty bound to do anything

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Corona Smith
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 07:56 AM

Good players should stay at home basking in the light of their own genius, so poor to middling players (like me) sound better in public.

Corona.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Like those people who write songs, people who play out do so because it is in their DNA .. they have to ... they have no choice ...It is a part of them and their chemistry and is as natural a course of action as breathing ... they will continue to do it until life stops them for health reasons.

Many people who are wonderful musicians are very happy to just play in private. That is completely fine and just don't have that DNA ... there is no right or wrong about it ... as Will said whatever makes one happy in that regard is what they should do

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 08:32 AM

If someone won't play or sing in public, I think they should be reported to the Folk Police, who should visit the bounders and give them a jolly good thrashing!!

Seriously, though, I have found myself on the receiving end of (not always polite) emotional blackmail if I don't feel that I wish to give a performance. If I'm being paid it's a different matter - it's a job. If I wish to rest, surely that's my prerogative?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM

Quote "GUEST Peter Laban - What is the point of your question ? Are you suggesting people should NOT do what they want to do or what ?"

Wow, how did we get there?

Should you be coerced into playing? Perhaps sometimes, perhaps to the people that matter in your life.

It's nobody else's business but yours. I play mostly and most freely to/for myself. I don't regard that as:

a) Selfish
b) Quirky
c) Reclusive
d) Falsely modest
e) Any other reason

I just do. I've taken to popping down the local folk club from time to time and now enjoy playing to this little group - something I've not done for 25 years or so.

Play publicly if you want to and don't if you're unhappy about it. Your choice, and you really don't have to justify the execution of said choice.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

hi

People should be left to make their own decisions as what they want to do.

However as a person who played for many years in several styles and guises, I know what it is to requested/pestered to play sometimes by well-meaning people.

These days I play solely at home. This is because of age/injury/illness I don't feel that I am good enough any more to go out in public. My choice and most people do respect it.

Just do what gives you the most pleasure.

Cheers

MIkel2

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:20 AM

I thin I have been clear about how I feel about it myself so I don't think I have anything to explain.

Here you'll find a link to a discussion on concertina.net on the subject 'Am I a musician' note the comment :

It's selfish, for a start. Most people that I know disapprove of selfishness.


on page three of the discussion and :

Music is a service, and you're a musician when you provide this service.

on the previous page, from where this angle took off.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

should good players play away from home?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:27 AM

I didn`t do enough of ANYthing in the 1960s to understand this thread--no offence.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

I'm sure my wife would complain if "I played away from home"

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

One of my most-rewarding life-mottoes has long been:

THERE ARE NO SHOULDS IN THE UNIVERSE.


I steer by "coulds" when in doubt.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Marje
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM

To try to turn this question round in a way that avoids blame: are people who only ever play to themselves or a few close friends missing out on something?

In some cases, the answer has to be no. Some musicians are reserved and private people, to the extent that performing, or even knowing that others are watching/listening, takes the pleasure out of their music-making. There's no point in them forcing themselves to do something they're not comfortable with. I can't think of anything worse than player or singer who performs in front of others simply out of a sense of duty. Such a performance is unlikely to be enjoyed by anyone.

At the other extreme there are those (probably more numerous but it's hard to be sure - they may just be more conspicuous)for whom the whole point of music-making is to share it with others and entertain them. They're the natural show-offs, if you like, and our world would be a lot less colouful without them.

In between are (probably) the majority of us, who do get a buzz from playing or singing "out" but also enjoy playing in complete privacy, just immersing themselves in their music. These are the individuals who may sometimes wonder whether it's worth making the effort to entertain others, and risk arousing criticism or disapproval.

One thing that changed my attitude to all this was when I lost my singing voice for some months after a bad illness. It really depressed me not to be able to sing, and I promised myself that if I ever got my voice back I'd use it, not just for myself but to sing for others whenever I could. While I was recovering, I bought a melodeon and learned to play that, which may not have added significantly to the total sum of human happiness, but I've got great pleasure from it.

I still occasionally find myself making excuses and finding reasons not to perform or play/sing in public, which is quite silly because once I get started I really enjoy it. When I do get compliments or positive comments from others, it makes me feel really good, and I'm glad I pushed myself and made the effort.

So I don't think there's any general moral obligation to perform, but I'd say it's well worth pushing oneself a bit beyond the "comfort zone" sometimes. It's very rewarding when others respond well and enjoy the music.

Marje

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

I enjoy playing with myself, and with others when the chance arises.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM

Not that I am particular religious, but some things from the Bible make sense to me (and by me, I mean me personally). One such passage is about hiding a candle under a bushel (This Little Light of Mine). Everyone has talents that can benefit the world, and the story encourages people to share them. I like that idea and play out often - from gigs in noisy bars to several volunteer gigs where the music sometimes seems to make a difference. But, all of this is, of course, simply my own feelings (or maybe it is just rationalization to justify my own ego-based motivations).

Is entertaining people with your talents an obligation? I don't think so. That being said, I do think that seeing a group of people enjoying themselves by being entertained is a good thing, in general. If one has the talent to offer that enjoyment, I think it is a nice thing to do, but only if one desires to do so.

Oh, and my highest musical moments have come when I am just sitting and playing music for my own enjoyment.

dw

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: buddhuu
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

I think anyone who can make music has an obligation to him/herself to go and make music with other people, at least a few times. It is an experience not be missed. Music played alone is fine, but it's when music is shared that it comes alive, and the enjoyment of the player is multiplied beyond measure.

I play at home, but it's when I play with others that I feel the absolute joy of playing - even as crap as I am.

Limelight isn't the issue. I hate solos, and am well known for ducking them. Playing with other people, and for other people is a glorious thing.

YMMV.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM

Classic cases here of the 'the tyranny of the shoulds and oughts'.

My wife is a psychotherapist and she talks of that phenomenon - not a good thing.

Just because it's right for a particular respondent, it doesn't mean it's right for the OP.

Whatever happened to 'live and let live'?

We end up singing about 'freedom of choice, peace and respect et al' . . . then slate someone for exercising it? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:58 PM

Personally, I prefer an audience but I think people should do whatever they like with their abilities, notwithstanding certain debatable exceptions upon which it would be inappropriate to elaborate.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

"I enjoy playing with myself, and with others when the chance arises."
:-)

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: stallion
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

"playing away from home" in my experience hasn't been restricted to the ones that are good at it, although what it has to do with music.....................

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 05:18 PM

There's a good precedent for this in one of the most significant English traditional singers, Walter Pardon:

Born 1914 in Knapton near North Walsham, Norfolk, Walter Pardon was fiercely proud of his "Bright Golden Store" of songs (the title of an LP of his singing issued in 1984) and very much enjoyed sharing them and passing them on to younger singers. Walter was a shy man who did not relish the pub environment, finding it disrespectful to the songs. He preferred a quiet gathering like those he used to have with his family which was rich in singers and musicians (Walter played melodeon) and sometimes seemed rather bemused by the folk clubs and concert halls he found himself in after his "discovery" by the famous folk singer Peter Bellamy in the early 1970s.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

""I am interested in hearing what other people think, especially in the light of comments I have heard that more or less made it feel players have an obligation of sorts to go out and entertain those already interested in their particular type of music and do missionary work among the unenlightened masses.""

Those comments say more about the controlling nature of the people who made them, than about the the people to whom they were addressed, and why should anybody be co-erced into doing something with which they are not comfortable.

Ignore them, would be my advice. They do not own shares in your life.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

Just checking that all understand "YMMV". ;-)

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: buddhuu
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:13 PM

Apologies. "Guest" above is me.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

The problem is not, apparently, new. Packie Manus Byrne used to tell the story of a legendary early Irish piper called Henry Bohannan. He was trying to learn the uillean pipes and not doing very well, until he was approached by one of the Little People who offered to teach him to play immediately. The only condition was that he should choose whether he wished to play to please others or to please himself, but he could not do both. He chose to please himself, and for a while was very happy. But he soon grew bored of only being able to play alone - because, though he felt he was playing brilliantly, everyone else thought he was so terrible that they would not let him join in at their sessions. He was truly miserable. Then one day he again met the Little Man who took pity on him and offered, once and for all time, to reverse the choice. He accepted. And from then on he was welcomed at all social gatherings. But he never again could enjoy the sound of his own playing.
And Packie wouldn't lie, would he?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM

I like that story and always use it to illustrate the centre of some of these problems. Seamus Ennis used to tell it, and has recorded it, Packie may not lie, he borrows a much as the next man. That said and done, the story also appeared in one of Capt. Francis O'Neill's books, probably Irish Folk Music : a fascinating hobby can't remember exactly now which one it was.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 07:05 AM

Mea maxima culpa!
Seamus it was!
I am very old....

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: MickyMan
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 07:21 AM

Of course the trick is to do what you like, but all too often people stay out of the limelight because they are nervous about presenting themselves in public. When other performers sense this they'll mistakenly use all kinds of coercion to bring the genie out of the bottle ... even guilt. Most performers started out being nervous themselves and found that the conquering of their fears opened up a wonderful world of communication to them. They realized that they actually enjoyed playing for others, and it is difficult for these people to believe that everybody doesn't feel that way.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: G-Force
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:18 AM

Frankly I think we have to be grateful some people shun the limelight. There is nothing more off-putting in a session that the musician who thinks he's wonderful, knows more tunes than anyone else and can't wait to show off his absolutely deafening instrument so he can be louder than everyone else as well! But more seriously, of course privacy should be respected but one often encourages a good musician because their excellent playing gives us all so much pleasure.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:30 AM

I might not be such a good player, but as a Yorkshireman I'll play owt!

owt - (dialect) anything.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:44 AM

I'm finding this thread interesting. I gather from the style of speech that most of the comments are from folks in Europe. I was very surprised when I ran into this criticism a couple of years ago at a local gathering ... here in the Seattle, Washington (USA) area.

To explain: I am an experienced, AND VERY OLD, singer with a large repitoire. I'm on stage a lot doing concerts, teaching, and various other "presentations."

A lady from Canada decided to strongly chastise me because I had ceased to attend local "song circles." I had made the mistake of telling her that the use of song books during song swaps had ruined any interest I had in them. She then took me to serious task!

Briefly, she said that I had "no right" to deny others my talents!

She went on to say that if it wasn't for the more experienced singers, the less experienced singers would have no inspiration.

Interesting ... eh? bob(deckman)nelson ... still hiding out in Everett, Washington ... watching the fledgling birds learning how to fly.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 01:03 PM

It's a paradox... if you present your skills to the best of your abilities, you're an insufferable show-off. If you choose to keep yourself to yourself, you are slated for hiding your light under a bushel.

You can please some of the people some of the time...

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:34 AM

I don't know whether or not this has any relevance to the premise of this thread... I was at a music party once where some Russians that had flown across from Vladivostok were also present. When it came my turn to play something I passed.

A few minutes later one of the young Russians told me severely that in Russia it is considered very rude if everyone doesn't do their part. If you don't want to sing, he said, then recite a poem or do a dance but do something.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

A few years back a particularly good melodeon player would roll up at local sessions. To everyone's delight and entertainment would play the most impossible tunes on his 2-row....no-one else could join in.

He wasn't showing off (he was much too shy to behave like that) but his superb playing of such complex tunes completely buggered up the sessions.

JJ

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Marje
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 06:22 AM

Re the Russian experience, above; yes, perhaps there is an element of good manners here. It's easy to be a follower, a passenger, a lazy musician who takes no risks and just lets others take the initiative. People who do stick their necks out and expose themselves (ooh-er! but you know what I mean) don't always find it easy, and may be doing it for the sake of the audience, or simply to get things going and encourage others to perform or join in.

So, without saying that people "should" behave in a certain way, I think some credit is due to those who do make an effort to entertain, and to encourage others to do so.

Marje

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM

WELL WELL WELL ... the previous three thread postings are making this subject VERY interesting. I can identify with everyone.bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Gedi
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 09:12 AM

What a fascinating thread this is. I never thought to look at my own motivations for playing in this way before!

For many years I played on my own (melodeon), mostly because I didn't know any other musicians, and my repertoire was very limited and grew stale.

Then I met a real nice bunch of people (at the Beech in Chorlton), started to play with them both in private and in public, and my repertoire has grown enormously as has my enjoyment of the music. I was invited to join a Morris side by JJ, who posted above, and this further increased my knowledge. I can honestly say that I have been given a new lease on life simply through going out and playing with and for other people.

I also occasionaly go down to Salford Quays on a sunny Sunday afternoon and find a quiet bench ovelooking the water and play tunes to myself and to passers by. I hope this doesn't come across as 'showing off' but I really do enjoy this aspect of playing out, and other people seem to enjoy it also. I find it helps to concentrate the mind if one is playing to an audience, no matter how small or transitory that audience may be. It also helps to build confidence and reduce nerves which is no bad thing.

Obviously this is only my take on the issue and as many posters have said it should be a matter of personal choice, but I do think there is much to be gained from 'playing out' as opposed to playing purely for yourself.

Ged

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 09:42 AM

Ebbie: It doesn't have to be a music party for you to be "expected" to contribute at Russian social events.

I was with a mainly Russian group of geophysicists some while back and once the Vodka had gone round a coul eof times and a few pickled gherkins been eaten, the singing and recitation started.

They were astonished at how few "traditional" songs (that could be sung unaccompanied) the Brit contingent knew. Between us we managed "Wild Rover" and I had a crack at "Ilkla Moor Baht 'At" but the few other songs we tried petered out after a verse or two in forgotten lyrics.

By contrast, all the Russians seemed to know dozens. And they could recite great long screeds of poetry...usually Russian, but often also the translation into English. And quote great chunks of literature in both languages. I was the *only* one in the Brit contingent to be able to recite any poems ( Kipling's "Smuggler's Song" and "Puck's Song", learned with my kids when we were reading Puck of Pook's Hill together, plus "Drake's Drum" remembered from school and Hugh Barrie's "When I Am Dead" because it's a climber's poem that I've said for years will be read at my funeral).

Those 4 poems and 2 full songs were all that about 8 Brits could contribute to the evening!