Playing with worse musicians

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:10 PM

Roger I have those somewhere - but I found that it was easier and faster just to not turn the player on to listen to you over and over .... :-P

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM

Mike2, your experience with practice isn't unusual. Even with laboratory rats, learning curves are seldom smooth and gradual. They often continue making error after error and then suddenly do the task far better, even perfectly. Same goes for us humans running our own mazes (or playing our own guitars - which rats hardly ever master, regardless of how much they practice).

And even when you've seemingly "got it down" in your own living room, you may find your prowess less impressive the first time you try to break out those new licks in a group. Performance anxiety, the added demands on your attention by having to listen to and watch other players, and just the altered ambient environment will all make your job more difficult.
This is why I think if you want to be good at jamming (or at backing up vocalists or other instrumentalists) there's no substitute for playing a lot in those situations.

And I really do think you probably learn the most when you're in a group where there are some "better" and some "worse" than you but where the skill range isn't humongous.
Trouble is, we can't all be smack dab in the middle.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

... and those silences between the tracks on the Mudcat Blue Plate Special CDs were spot-on professional perfection, Roger! : D

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Susan A-R
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM

Mikel, someone was also talking with me about the true power of "sleping on it" I was up in Quebec at a music camp, really pushing to learn a lot of material and also trying to improve my Franch. I'd struggle and work to stuff things into my head, then go to bed and wake up with them in my brain and finger tips. I did have to struggle, THEN sleep to get them there.   So: Practice, listening, thinking, being a team player, teaching and learning from each other, all good.

Ah, and there's a wonderful woven hanging in my attic which sums up much of the discussion. It's the Vermont Megabucks Lottery theme. "Please Play Responsibly."

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: MikeL2
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie - PM
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:09 PM

Hi Genie

I concur with most of what you say, particularly about practice.

Though in my case ( and I think in many others too ) even when practising regularly you will plateau. This can be quite disconcerting and for others even demoralising and can put some players off from playing again.

I still find that when I am trying to master some difficult ( for me ) passage I can take days to work it out and still not be able to play it complete.

Then as if by magic it comes to me and after that I can't understand why I was struggling.

So the moral is stick at it - we are not all geniuses ( sic).

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:01 AM

Before you send me my plane ticket, Foolestroupe, be warned that my finest hour was being featured on all the Mudcat Cafe Blue Plate Specials CDs......as the silence between the tracks!

RtS

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:29 AM

Genie, thanks. I would love to drop in sometime.

However, on that particular trip (of two months) I was there to take care of my sister who had had heart surgery, so I was pretty much housebound with her. The musicians came to us.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:07 AM

Looks like that was me, sorry....

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:09 PM

Whether you're learning from the "better players" or the "worse players" around you, you probably won't progress much without practicing.   I think that's a lot of why many people (including me) sometimes stay at a plateau for months or years: they (we?) may participate in jams a couple times a month and hardly ever touch the instrument aside from that.

That's not usually the case with me, since my work involves playing and singing, but it doesn't involve a lot of folk music, so I may progress in my skill in playing other kinds of music while I even regress (from where I once was) in my folk playing.   
There's one group I participate in sometimes where I haven't noticed much, if any, improvement in the musical skill level of the group (in group singing, instrumentals, etc.) over the last 10 years, and I think a main reason for that is that most regulars agree with the attitude expressed by one of the 'leaders': "We don't care what we sound like, we're just here to have fun." (Of course, for some of us it's a lot more fun to play and sing competently together than to fumble around and sometimes produce chaos, but everyone has their own idea of "fun.")   You might think that a group that's been singing a particular song together for over 10 years would, by now, be able to sing in time together, blend voices and instruments, and sound pretty good on that song, but I don't think that happens automatically.

As my vocal coach likes to remind us: "Practice makes permanent."

Merely keep doing what you're doing, over and over, and you very well may not improve at all.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:44 PM

Ebbie, if you prefer Juneau, that's cool (no pun intended), but if you only found 4 or 5 very mediocre players to jam with in Oregon, you must have had very limited exposure to the musical community (folk included) here.   Portland and Eugene, for instance, both are home to a lot of excellent musicians, and it's not hard to find song circles and jams where they congregate.
We do have our share of rank beginners, and song circles can sometimes be a bit painful, musically speaking, but I find that is the exception, not the rule.
If you come to visit your sister, give us a heads-up and we'll introduce you to some musicians you can learn a lot from. : )

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:03 PM

OK, I'll be serious for a while.

I jam with a collection of bluegrass players, and I think the biggest step up from being the "worst" musician was learning what role to play in the jam. I have played guitar for years, but essentially was interested in the instrument as accompaniment for my vocals. I developed, playing alone, a kind of rambunctious boom-chuck strumming style to accompany my rock and roll-based vocals. i have played harmonica and been lead singer in a blues/rock band for years, so that was my background and that's what underscored my confidence level. I carried this over to bluegrass, and it worked alright, mainly because vocally I was stronger than most of the other players. But in a jam, you aren't the lead singer, and you may only have one song out of 12 to sing lead on.
So I adjusted my style, and in the process, learned some things and became a better session player. I learned to play guitar in a rhthmic flat-picking style. My Martin has a very resonant tone quality and good volume in the bass area, and this, coupled with the fact that we only infrequently had a standup bass player present, led to my developing this rhythmic style that underpins the jam songs. In addition, I learned to vary the volume depending on the loudness of the player and instrument taking an instrumental break. I also learned to sing high harmony, which I have a talent for and for which there's almost always a place in bluegrass music.
And playing blues harp in bluegrass? It's like the banjo, in that the sound tends to dominate, so it's best used with disgression.

Actually, it's not exactly like a banjo. The harmonica only sucks half the time. Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:07 AM

"is great on vocals, guitar or mandolin, his inabilty to stick to the arrangements we'd agreed upon and rehearsed started to drive me to frustrated distraction. He'd ignore the arrangements and make it impossible for some of the others to sound decent. Changing the key, tempo, what the introduction consists of, without any warning to anyone else and messing up singers who are doing their parts strictly by the dots in the hymnal by making up his own harmonies, (different each verse) was throwing us all off. All his fine musicianship didn't add up to being a team player"

Exactly one of the main problems....

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: stallion
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:39 AM

Surely some point is being missed here, there are two things going on that are not the same thing. Firstly people meeting for a social occasion and playing music and singing together and the other to better ones own understanding of the music and instruments(s)to improve ones own competance. The crossover is that to be part of an ensemble that are very good can be breathtaking and exhilarating. I would like to think that I am not so selfish or self indulgent to sing some of the more obscure Non chorus songs at the on a Friday night because the majority of the people want to join in and want, if not need, the same old same old, the more self indulgent stuff is done around the kitchen table or in concert where people come to listen and sing. I personally have had some wonderful moments alongside some of the best but fridays are not for me they are for everyone else and enjoy being part of that, it's a night out!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: CupOfTea
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:40 PM

What Stringsinger said:"Playing with some so-called better musicians may not work at all if you are dealing with hot-shots and ego-driven players who might be good by themselves but not so hot in a group setting." struck a nerve with me.

"Playing well with others" seems to be a discrete skill from just "playing well." In working with a multi-instrumental music ministry at church, what serves me best is years of listening to bands where musicians worked well with each other. Trying to identify what sounds best in the mix, sometimes means saying "No. I should NOT play on every piece" - another consideration when playing in a group where the ethic leans toward total inclusiveness.

The leader-with-guitar at church is a prime example. While he is great on vocals, guitar or mandolin, his inabilty to stick to the arrangements we'd agreed upon and rehearsed started to drive me to frustrated distraction. He'd ignore the arrangements and make it impossible for some of the others to sound decent. Changing the key, tempo, what the introduction consists of, without any warning to anyone else and messing up singers who are doing their parts strictly by the dots in the hymnal by making up his own harmonies, (different each verse) was throwing us all off. All his fine musicianship didn't add up to being a team player.

Joanne in Cleveland (who plays in the VERY minor league, mostly)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:10 PM

Welcome back, DrWord!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: GUEST,guest, DrWord
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM

been offline--which to me really means offMudcat, cause it's the Internet to me--for a couple of years, i think. This thread has been FABULOUS! it's enough to have me logging on again! with my lastborn [aetat. 19] off to university in a few weeks, i'll be using the old email and dropping in to the cafe here. i'll fish out my last email from JoeOffer and get my cookies|membership together. [the BS with the rude "guests" is really terribly puerile, BUT the true 'catter threads like this one make my day. I could at several points in the dialogue have posted "ditto what he|she said" ~ much that resonates with my own experiences, both over the years, and across instruments--i'm a better guitar picker and a worser mandolinist, and a beginner on the tenor guitar, and I love all kinds of making music.   

thanx 4 starting the thread Melissa

DrWord

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:48 PM

My exact sentiments... Speed don't mean good... Back in the 60's and early 70s I was with and around alot of bands that thought that they could compensate for a lack of general talent (or practice) by playing very loud... When I hear some bluegrass bands I'm thinkin' the same thing...

Slow it down a tad, boys... Tell the story, sing the song but slow it down... Ain't a friggin' race we got here...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:14 PM

Susan,
I have tried and tried to sing while fiddling..that's a very fancy trick!

One thing that fascinates me is that it's common for things to start out fast and keep speeding up..but I don't think I've ever played with anybody that slows down. It's always faster and faster.
I'd like to know why it works that way.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Susan A-R
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:04 PM

Melissa, I'll be teaching an intro to Quebecois tunes class. I'm hopeful that what you say is true. I'm generally a good multi tasker, having been a professional chef for a while, and I find that I can sing relatively well while playing the fiddle, as long as I'm singing the same melody I'm playing, but even to say "out" or "switch" while playing is tricky.

I wonder if people don't progress because they
a. don't believe they can, and/or
b. don't listen well enough to themselves or others to realize that improvement is needed/possible.
I am fascinated with fiddlers who play fast, know complicated tunes and have been at it for years and are wicked sloppy about pitch and rhythm. I'm kinda like that with spelling and punctuation though, so I shouldn't be so surprised, I guess.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM

FT,
If you saw the way practice is done for the little show/opry I've been working with, you'd understand the sense in just playing!

B,
If I ever happen to be up that way, I might peek in to see what I've been missing.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:20 PM

100 :-)

As I said, "B Graders".... :-)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:19 PM

"after being away from a place for a while, when I go back, the ones who have stayed without taking a break are the ones I was taking a break from. Those are the ones who seem quite happy plonking around with the same three songs for years"

The ones least interested in rehearsal, the ones least interested in rehearsing together, least interested in 'performing elsewhere as a group' for a special occasion, those who believe that 'you just need to 'play', not waste time 'practicing' .... ?? :-)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 08:29 PM

The jam begins at 1:00 (by tradition as Archie quit cuttin' hair at 1:00) and lasts until around 5:00 though sometimes longer... If yer interested check out acousticblues.com and if ya go tell 'u that "Sidewalk Bob" sent ya'... The newbies won't know who yer talkin' about but the oldies will sho nuff... and prolly tell a bunch of lies on me...lol... Don't believe none of 'um... It's all fun...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 08:21 PM

Nick,
I'm not quite sure what I'm saying.
It seems like after being away from a place for a while, when I go back, the ones who have stayed without taking a break are the ones I was taking a break from. Those are the ones who seem quite happy plonking around with the same three songs for years..I was just wondering if you had a theory/observation on that.

The dull inherit the earth?!
ick..cheery Sunday thought..

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 08:15 PM

B,
That sounds like a fun jam!
How long does it last? Ours was just three hours.
What's the last song?

I haven't been to any other barbershop jams and was kind of surprised when I watched a few videos of similar gatherings and noticed that there don't seem to be many women in those groups.
I sure wish our guy had lived long enough to get to see youtube. He would have loved it.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM

Melissa,

Oh sure... Lotta women come to the Saturday afternoon jams... Some are singers and lead songs... Some come just to play...

One of the finest country blues players in the Mid Atlantic region, Elenor Ellis, has been a regulare going back 30 or so years...

But there's Donna Fletcher, who sings more in the style of Bessie Smith... And Kim Capps who just belts 'um out... And Pearl, who can go toe to toe with any harmonica player out there... And Lilly, who shows up with her violin... And occasionaly, Jackie, who is also one fine harmonica player... And Barrelhouse Bonnie on occasion to tickle the keys... I mean, lots of women... Even Gay Ang**********, of Saffire has been there...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM

Friday Night at Grove (WHFF) was an excellent Tune Session , with a VERY wide range of expertise , but I think we all came away enriched by the experience , with No One Ego tripping , but all having a great time ! And some of the musicians were better/worse than some of the musicians.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM

"more often than not someone would jump in and try to highjack my "Mississippi" groove back to the "usual" barbershop groove... It wasn't really a reflection of better or worse but a reflection of preference.."

This is a mark of "The B Grader" - they already know everything, don't bother to try confusing their minds with new material - they won't even notice it.... teaching pigs to sing and all that ... :-)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM

Interesting. A lot has to do with what qualifies a good musician? What I try to do in a jam
session is feel out where the musicality is by playing very simply. Playing with some so-called better musicians may not work at all if you are dealing with hot-shots and ego-driven players who might be good by themselves but not so hot in a group setting.
A lot depends on the familiarity with the style of music. Sometimes a sophisticated jazz player may not function well in a folk group and vice versa. It's as tough for some technical jazz players to play simply as it is for the folkie to find his/her way through Giant Steps.

I define "worse musicians" regardless of their level of expertise as being insensitive to their
musical surroundings. With musicianship, environment is everything.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Nick
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 04:07 PM

>>Sometimes it seems like the ones who don't improve have more tenacity than the ones who gain skills. Do you think it stays more enjoyable for the ones that don't seem to notice the stagnancy?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. Are you saying that people are happier in their incompetence and so appear to keep soldiering on than those who strive to better themselves? Whereas in reality it's just because they are blissfully unaware of how poor they are?

Perhaps the ones who are improving move away (or are driven away?) to new pastures to avoid the boredom of stagnation?

Does it mean that the dull will inherit the earth?

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

Bobert,
Barbershops are ManLand.
Did you have women in the group?

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 01:27 PM

My second bunch of betters (and worses) was at a barbershop too, Bobert. I had taken a break for several years and when I got starved for somebody to play with again, an old fiddler sent me to the barbershop.

I sure do miss it.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 01:21 PM

As kinda a side bar, there are also instances where folks might not be better ort worse but into a differrnt sound...

When I used to be a regular at Archie Edwards barbershop In Washington, D.C. I could hang real well with the barbershop groove, which is unmistakable... I'd take solos and all that... No problem... Then about 3:00 Jim Landa would yell out "Time for a little Delta!!!" which meant that he wanted me to "lead a song" in my "Mississpi groove"... Problem is that my Mississippi groove ain't the barbershop groove so Jim would tell people to just listen before attempting to play along... But seems that more often than not someone would jump in and try to highjack my "Mississippi" groove back to the "usual" barbeshop groove... It wasn't really a reflection of better or worse but a reflection of prefernce... But that kinda stuff happens with large groups of players...

I mean, heck, it happens even at the Getaway... That's kinda like why I like to do a "mini" so can pick the band knowin' that the groove won't be infringed upon...

Sorry, it was a little drift but kinda related...

B~

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 12:49 PM

Nick,
Sometimes it seems like the ones who don't improve have more tenacity than the ones who gain skills.
Do you think it stays more enjoyable for the ones that don't seem to notice the stagnancy?

Ebbie,
It's not dismissive to have enough self-awareness to be able to measure a fair comparison!


My previous post was somewhat disjointed.
The sleepy fiddler was an example of one of the strangest divided mind (wonder what else I might call it?) things I've ever seen.
The part to Susan was supposed to be talking/playing (not 'talking/singing)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Nick
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 12:33 PM

Ebbie - some people don't get better. It's one of those things. I listened to a fiddle player (?) recently who has not got one iota better in the last 7 years since I first heard him play. In the same time I have known a lot of people get MUCH better. It is a choice I think. It also links back to Melissa's previous post. If your self perception of your abilities is so out of line with that of reality and the person has no understanding of it why would there be any impetus to change?

The Dunning Kruger thing explains lots to me since I came across it. As I think I've said before it was in the context of a person who comes and sings but has to be forced (practically) to contribute; when she sings she's better than most but she has no sense of it. At the same time I know people who are awful at what they do and yet thrust themselves into the limelight at every chance and inflict their rubbish on others and never progress. In many cases they also have no sense of qualty when they see or hear it which is perhaps even more depressing. I've lost count of the times that something of real quality has been lost under some oaf crashing out some crass and tasteless 'music' to 'add' something - or the timing of a song be killed by the 'I know this' brigade taking it off in another direction. *sigh*

It also was very relevant to work. We had been interviewing internally for a promotion and gosh does the syndrome apply there! The look on the face of the person who didn't get a position - which EVERYONE knkew they were totally ill-equipped for - because they thought that they were the best person for the job was staggering to me. It makes more sense now.

Listening and doing is interesting. At work I can't help but hear what is going on around me as I do other things and I will get involved in several conversations at the same time because that's the way my head works. I know others who, if on the telephone, you could walk up to and wave/crash cymbals/set them on fire and they would still go on oblivious with their full attention on what they are doing. There is a spectrum in between which people fall into. I can't remember who commented on this in a thread some time back and said that this particular skill/deficit is a useful one in music and playing with others. I do know quite a lot of people who do the stimulus:response thig when they hear something they know, put all the blinkers and flaps up and blissfully exclude the minor irritation of the singer or player doing it *their* way rather than following the blinkered one...

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM

I keep harking back a couple of years ago to when I was contemplating the possible necessity of moving back to Oregon from Alaska, where I have lived for more than 22 years. I have a sister who should not be living by herself- and I seemed the logical choice to help. I've (kind of) given up the notion on the basis of 'things tend to happen the way they're going to'. :)

In a chat we had, I told my sis that I need to play with people who are *better* than I in order to be satisfied with a group. In Juneau there are many people better than I but in Oregon the 4 or 5 people I was playing with were tentative and shy, people who have not noticeably improved in the last 20 years, people who were impressed with my minuscule skills. And they are not youngsters- most of them are over 40. Nice people, all. But not people from whom I was likely to learn much.

Boy. That sounds dismissive. I don't mean it that way. Maybe it simply means that I don't want to leave Juneau!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:46 AM

What do you get to teach, Susan?
I think maybe the talking/singing thing works the same way as doing housework while singing/talking while watching the oven and keeping an ear on the kids...and I bet you'll be doing it without noticing if you will be playing while you teach.

We used to have a fiddler who got kind of sick. His meds put him to sleep sometimes.
One night, we were playing along..he fell asleep and kept playing! Naturally, we all kept playing too. He couldn't see the feet going up because his eyes were closed..he didn't hear our host saying his name..his timing and bowing stayed solid and he just kept on going until I poked him and whispered that he was wearing me out and ought to lift his foot.



The Dunning-Kruger thing has been rolling around in my mind since somebody gave a link a couple days ago. The sad thing about it is that it seems like some of the finest examples are the ones employers choose first.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Susan A-R
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:19 AM

What a great thread!! I've been part of several different jams and bands over the past 10 years, some with really hot shot players, some with slower or less experienced players. I've learned a lot from all of them, and have the most respect for the people who really use their ears, whether they are fast or slow, newbies or old timers. Paying attention to what's going on around you, and working to augment it, make it better, tuneful, fun and lively, seems to make everything work better. I fiercely, cheerfully contradict when someone says they can't carry a tune, or are a terrible musician, because most people, with practice and listening, aren't.

I'm just about to launch into my first real teaching experience, and will definitely look over this thread as I go.

Melissa, I'm envious of anyone who can talk and play at the same time. How do people do that??

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 05:31 AM

Joanne - the file "Contra Dance Music: A Working Musician's Guide" has changed it's location - the site needs a little maintenance. :-)

Interesting this -
http://www.jonweinberg.com/music/Playing_with_Others.pdf


The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which an unskilled person makes poor decisions and reaches erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to realize their mistakes.[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to the situation in which less competent people rate their own ability higher than more competent people. It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence: because competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. "Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."[2]

The Dunning–Kruger effect was put forward by Justin Kruger and David Dunning. Similar notions have been expressed–albeit less scientifically–for some time. Dunning and Kruger themselves quote Charles Darwin ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge")[3] and Bertrand Russell ("One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision."[4][5]). The Dunning–Kruger effect is not, however, concerned narrowly with high-order cognitive skills (much less their application in the political realm during a particular era, which is what Russell was talking about.[6]) Nor is it specifically limited to the observation that ignorance of a topic is conducive to overconfident assertions about it, which is what Darwin was saying.[7] Indeed, Dunning et al. cite a study saying that 94% of college professors rank their work as "above average" (relative to their peers), to underscore that the highly intelligent and informed are hardly exempt.[4] Rather, the effect is about paradoxical defects in perception of skill, in oneself and others, regardless of the particular skill and its intellectual demands, whether it is chess, playing golf[8] or driving a car.[4]

!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Fooles Troupe Translation => Arrogant W*nkers think they know everything!   (Based mainly on ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge") :-)

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: GUEST,Gentle Gaint
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:14 PM

You ask them, request them, you teach them, and persevere with them until one of you let's rip !

"Thank you Lord, for those who can put their words and music together in perfect harmony that expresses all that is in my head and heart".

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:14 PM

Re the "better musicians" learning from those of us who aren't as advanced, I've found that some excellent instrumentalists are kind of married to certain styles and arrangements of songs and they're sometimes interested in things that we less advanced players do, perhaps because we "can't" do what they do.   

Over the years I've developed some idiosyncratic picking styles because I never had lessons and either couldn't or didn't learn how to do "standard" styles.   I also opted for some alternative chord positions for various reasons, including injured or arthritic fingers.   Guitarists who can do lots of things I can't sometimes show curiosity about and interest in these 'unorthodox' ways of playing.

Same goes for vocal 'tricks.'   E.g., I've learned to modulate some melodies because the vocal range called for in the "original" melody is beyond my (and most people's) comfort zone. Also, in group singing, songs are often sung in a key that's not a good fit for half the participants. My way of coping is just to sing harmony or a counter melody when that happens, and I've found in some groups that this seems to add an element - a positive one - that most of the group weren't that used to.

(This may surprise some people, but there are a lot of instrumentalists who are real novices when it comes to singing, especially group singing. Some people have a hard time holding a melody when others are singing harmony, because they've had little or no training or experience in harmony singing.)

As has been mentioned before, for some really good players it's hard to find a group where there are "better thans" for them to play with. But you can almost always find a group where there are people who know songs, licks, styles, arrangements that you don't.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 03:58 PM

Brian, how can you call yourself a "worse musician?" Didn't you play lead guitar for Queen? ;D

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: CupOfTea
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM

Ebbie, your "There were five of us in the core group...but when you have 13 people in the band it can be hard work for everybody" gave me the giggles, sort of. Mud tends to be, well.. bigger. I think 7 is the lowest number for a dance I can remember in years. Our roster of those who might show up runs 50-60 most years. The 25th anniversary dance had upwards of 50 people who played.

Our core group of players who show up at 90% of dances and rehearsals runs more like a dozen. A typical night at our monthly big deal dance may have 1-4 hammer dulcimers, piano (with 2-3 musicians trading off with other instruments) 3-5 fiddles, 2-4 guitars 1-3 mandolins. accordian, 1-3 recorder players, 2 harmonica players, 1-3 banjo players, 1-2 autoharps & a lone concertina, 1 bass (with 1 or 2 players) bodhran (as an occasional accent) and (Lord help us) a guy who plays tin whistle and bassoon. Over two dozen is not unusual.

It's not quite as bad as herding cats. Our better/worse divide seems to be those who are willing to come to rehearsals and those who are not. As many of the more exact and knowledgable players come to rehersals, there is a solid core to the er.. core. As one of our main piano players (tend to be the lead of the band) is also a caller, she can adjust tempo and has no problem telling folks when they're throwing the band off - we wouldn't be who we are without the dancers. Our "first fiddle" tends to get folks back in line who have strayed, with a smiling, yet firm nudge.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that having the dancers as the focus most all the time (we seldom play concertish gigs) gives us a focus that is a different orientation from a session where the tunes are the point. The ethics of inclusion that are so much part of the dance community here extend to the band. Also with so many people, it's darn hard to stand out as a flash player - your ego just isn't audible! We only mic the band when we do big gymnasium type gigs.

I've thought again and again how lucky we are to have Mud in Yer Eye here.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 08:27 AM

"One thing I have noticed when I've played with better players is that most seem to be interested in the things that you do that they don't."

This is the difference between "The A Graders" & "The B Graders".

One lot are the best anybody have ever heard, you must do things their way, and they are forever telling everybody the proper way to do things.

The other lot are really nice people, will teach anybody anything they know, are always the first to recognize talent in others and try to learn from them.

You tell me.... :-)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And remember The Fooles Troupe Band says "You don't have to be able to understand the lyrics, you just need to feel that you could if you wanted to".

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Brian May
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 06:51 AM

. . . hmm . . . attempt to be the worst in the group.

Thanks Melissa.

I've found that I have a natural talent I didn't realise !!!

One thing missing from a lot of the above posts though, is the ability to laugh at your errors (I smile a lot) and to have fun.

If it isn't fun, it's not worth subjecting yourself to it.

I also noticed the air quality was SOo much better when I got my head out of my arse!!! (I learned that trick a few years back whilst attempting to emulate some humourless, intolerant and self important SOB).

Nice thread.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 06:44 AM

True, Nick. The site owner of TheSession lives, I believe, not far from me in Brighton and sits in with the local Irish sessions from time to time. I always take The Session posts with a large pinch of salt - good to see some diatribes from other people than 'Catters!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Nick
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 06:37 AM

I've met some people from the Session.org in real life and some quite enjoy the sport of the site and are not quite as scarey in real life. Met the owner of the site in a completely different context some years ago when he was doing a course at our office on dynamic html and css. Very nice chap.

One thing I have noticed when I've played with better players is that most seem to be interested in the things that you do that they don't. It may be a song. It might be a different voicing of a chord. Or a different tuning. Or a different way of phrasing something. Could be anything. I played for a while with a guy who 90% of the time plays with a pick whereas I play 90% of the time fingerpicking. I was more than fascinated watching and picking some of the things he did but was probably more surprised that he felt there were things that I could offer to him. I know I gained a huge amount more from him than he did me but it's interesting that there is usually something to share and there's always something to learn.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 05:28 AM

I'm glad to see that there are musicians here who are happy to sit in with "better" players and also welcome in "worse" players than themselves. I sometimes drop in at the thread-posting end of TheSession.org to see what outrages have been committed and who's about to assassinate whom. Great fun, but some extreme views on pub sessions from people who care only for their own excellence. To which I've always said, if you hold an open session in a public bar, be prepared to welcome in anyone, whatever their standard, and help them along the way if need be. If you want a centre of excellence, then hire a private room or meet as a clique in your own homes.

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Melissa
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

Yeah..I'd give a lot to have my old-timers back too.
The lemons are the part of the story we'd never choose for ourselves. Blech, forced resiliency!

Subject: RE: Playing with worse musicians
From: Genie
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:32 AM

Well, it's both lemon and lemonade. I'd give a lot to have that fingertip back intact, but I might never have advanced to playing barre chords routinely had I not sliced off the tip.