Folk music more countryside than town?

Subject: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:32 AM

I was looking up sessions, festivals etc. (planning ahead) and noticed a lot more stuff seems to go on in more 'rural' areas as apposed to towns and cities...anyway it got be wondering is 'folk' music (in broadest possible terms-lets not get into that old argument again) more of a countryside phenomena than a town one?

Do people in towns and cities have a 'folk tradition' or was it more of a rural pursuit?

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM

My guess is that it's more the result of a random distribution of pro-active musicians than a countryside or urban thing. There's a huge number of sessions, clubs, singarounds, etc. in Sussex - which is a county of very rural areas and very urban areas such as Brighton and Crawley...

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:39 AM

It's more likely that venues are the issue... finding suitable venues for folk clubs or festivals (with adequate parking!) in towns is increasingly difficult, as most pubs don't have function rooms any more for a variety of reasons. Suitable rooms are available in hotels... at a price!

The Open Door folk club (Manchester/Oldham) was one such casualty - we still managed to run our mini-festival for a while after we moved to the Royal Oak, but a room with a capacity of 30 was never going to make the big time!

We decided to knock it on the head having tried in vain for a few years to find a more suitable venue - unfortunately numbers had dropped, making it no longer viable.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 10:34 AM

It is certainly the case inmost of Kent. Here in North West Kent are two Folk Clubs in the country town/outer London suburb of Orpington, (London Borough of Bromley, plus the session that we run in The Seven Stars Foots Cray, which was in the Kent countryside before urban sprawl swallowed it up. It now comes under The London Borough of Bexley. The pub still retains a micro - country setting though.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: leeneia2
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 10:48 AM

A festival needs open space and safe places to camp.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 10:49 AM

Urban environments are like beaches the tide from the countryside flows in and out periodically.

One point- both extremes- extreme rural and extreme urban tend to have their own recurrent disasters. While scattered populations in rural setttings may preserve traditions they also can loose them due to lack of transfer across generations- not so many to receive. Additionally famine, economic hardship drive people from rural to urban.... Rural catastrophes due to fewer population tend to be more devastating-fewer people fewer survive.

In urban centers one finds other preasures-

As far as today in Baltimore there is nothing in the rural areas and what little we have is at expensive places in the urban centers

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM

Most big festivals (here on the East coast of USA) are in country or rural/suburban areas b/c there is more space. But if you want to experience any kind of folk music you can hear- Celtic, Balkan, Sacred Harp, Gospel, Cuban, Klezmer, country, blues, singer songwriter.... whatEVER......you'll find it in Manhattan. Or Brooklyn. Or for that matter, Boston.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 02:57 PM

As a punter/performer I rarely think about the difference between town and country locations. The largest and smallest festivals I attend in Yorkshire are both set in towns, in fact most of the festivals in Yorkshire are set in towns, and some of them are stunning locations, Saltburn, Whitby, Scarborough for example. But surely we're more concerned with what's going on in the venues and streets. The surroundings are admittedly a bonus.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:08 PM

I wonder if one factor is that music is more of a commercial enterprise in cities, while it may tend to be a do-it-yourself thing in smaller communities. If you can make money hosting commercial musicians, why allow people to make the music themselves? And if you're hiring musicians, why would you hire minimally popular folk musicians when you can hire other genres that draw in a lot more money?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 05:53 PM

So its not justa UK trend happens inthe US too.
@joe intresting point. I do find there plenty of other genres around locally but the folk is more needle in a haystack kinda serch to find.

I remember a non folkie saying to me once after I'd dragged them to c# house that all the songs seemed to be collected from the countryside didn't towns and citys have folk music?

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 06:42 PM

Well, folk music has been mostly urban in the US since the "folk scare" revival of the 1950s and 1960s; but most of the truly Enlish-language traditional songs the collectors collected, came from rural areas. Could it be that the true urban folk music of the U.S. was the music of immigrants?
I think it's safe to say that folk music has not been a commercial entity in the US since 1975. There are active and flourishing folk clubs in a number of U.S. cities - but with a few exceptions, people generally sing in living rooms, not in pubs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 06:47 PM

One of the problems in towns (in the UK) is that many town pubs turn themselves into "pack in the youngsters get them drunk" establishments. They tend to be very crowded and very noisy, but very profitable. Not conducive to live sessions though.

Several pubs in this town have moved to that marketing model in the last 7-8 years, leaving fewer "traditional" pubs suitable for sessions. Still enough in this neck of the woods (Kent - Sussex borders) to keep a fair number of town-based sessions going though.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 07:59 PM

Oodles of folk music for pay or for free (performances and sessions) in the greater Los Angeles area. See Folkworks calendar.

Festivals need space, although those happen in L.A., too:
Equinox Festival, Sept. 11-12, 2010

NYC was already mentioned, the DC area, Seattle, Portland,OR... similar.

Not sure your premise is true, at least for the U.S.

~ Becky in Tucson
a smaller city, similar effect

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 08:53 AM

I suppose there would be potentially more to entertain in the city than the country.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:17 AM

There are plenty of folk activities in towns and cities. I wouldn't say that folk clubs and sessions are particularly biased to either town or country.

Festivals do required a bit of space, but nevertheless many (if not most) are based in or close to towns - think of Sidmouth, Whitby, Broadstairs, or Fylde to name but a few.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:27 PM

what about when it comes to collecting songs/tunes?

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:36 PM

A lot of trad songs have rural themes, which being a townie I sometimes find it hard to relate to.
Did the victorian collectors just ignore towns?
Nearest I find of town/city 'folk music' is musichall.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:48 PM

Victorian society spent much energy getting the music out of pubs and unhealthy settings and into concert venues creating local bands many urban songwriters were publishers like joe wilson with an interest in grinding out songs and selling printed version or men who could no longer work such as tommy armstrong who did composition for commission.
Not a cut and dry line many currents these a few of them.

Then there is the chicken and the egg issue of did the music come from the people into the pubs then into print or the other way around. Most likely some of each. Much of the published music almost reads like a chamber of commerce hand out marketing the eccentricities of the colorful local population which as original characters may have long departed the simple sit in the corner and sing life- for places like music halls and parlor singing. I have been meaning to get back to a good book on the subject of victorian music....must find the title.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:52 PM

After the Industrial Revolution, any 'town music in a folk vein' came from country people who had moved into the towns.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 03:20 AM

> Did the victorian collectors just ignore towns?

In a lot of the actual Victorian cases, yes!

Many Victorian collectors, not least Cecil Sharp himself, most definately regarded rural folk song as 'better preserved' and 'truer to the original' than the urban equivalent.

Those aren't direct quotes by the way, see chapters 2-5 of The Imagined Village for further details :)

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,Tootler on BB
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 04:19 AM

My impression is that folk festivals in the UK are mostly in small(ish) towns - eg Whitby, Sidmouth - possibly because there is a decent selection of venues & it's not too far between them. In a major city you would not get the atmosphere. A small town festival generates. Field based festivals, common with rock festivals, seem much less Common in folk music.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 04:33 AM

Tootler,

You make a good point, but you really need some help with punctuation and capitalization....

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:07 AM

If I had to choose between Tootlers posting with punctuation and capitalization errors and no posting at all .I would prefer to read what he had to say.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM

I've seen worse use of grammar on another thread by someone else... 'tootlers' is perfectly understandable in comparison.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:19 AM

Back to the subject in question....

@sfmans Its a shame as I think the 'city' versions are just as valid 'corrupted' or not.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:22 AM

I was once at a festival in a town, many years ago. A bit of grass around the concert venue was put forward as somewhere to pitch tents.

All well and good till the nightclubs kicked out......

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM

I don't object to valid criticism of my post, but I do object to the critics doing it anonymously. If guests wish to criticise my, or anyone else's posting, then they should identify themselves.

I was away from the computer at the time, typing it on my Blackberry Storm on a screen based "keyboard". I get so many mistypes because the "keys" are so small that I tend to avoid using it except for short messages. I did actually go back and edit some of the errors, but a good many more have slipped through, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:19 PM

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 04:33 AM

Tootler,

You make a good point, but you really need some help with punctuation and capitalization....
capitalisation, not capitalization . furthermore GUEST Posts are supposed to have a name, otherwise they are supposed to be deleted.where is Joe Offer?

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 02:05 PM

Hey Tootler, don't let the anonymous GUESTs get you down :)

Subject: RE: Folk music more countryside than town?
From: stallion
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 03:42 AM

Yes but if Joe deleted the guest the rest wouldn't make sense! Anyway it is enough that it made sense, at least it gave me a belly laugh. Insofar as grammar is concerned it's a hoot that someone is criticising grammar on a thread about the oral tradition! The academic excercise of collecting songs shouldn't get confused with the singing of the songs, the vast majority of the people way back when cared little of the provenance of songs but whether they enjoyed singing them, a fact lost to some of the folk world today. As for urban "tradition" it's more like the kareoke today ( ok I can't spell it but you get the drift so no pedant guest post, put a name so we can finger you)