london folk songs

Subject: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:15 AM

hi
i'm looking for folk songs which would be considered london folk songs.songs like sweet thames,up to the rigs,bows of london,wild and wicked youth.sam hall ,ratcliff highway.polly oliver .ploughboy and the cockney,grey cock, hopping down in kent etc
i've looked at the critics group a progress to london and sam lee's singing london but cannot find many of the songs covered.it may be on a deleted vinyl but thats not much use.
i've found youtube very helpful and i suppose any responses i would immediately check this to see how the song go's.
i moved from london to worcestershire and feel a sentimental need to sing songs related to home.as much as i love shanty and ploughboy songs i've enjoyed singing london songs recently
i'm going to do a home recording of london songs and would be grateful for any suggestions that would fit in with the above

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:43 AM

"All around my hat" originated in London, originally in cockney dialect. In those days, Cockney interchanged v and w, possibly due to German immigrants (see Dickens for examples). There are many others to be found in old songsters.

All around my hat (Bodleian collection) You have to scroll down and right a little

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:47 AM

Check out ANY album of Music Hall songs (Cosmotheka et al ) . A surprising number of music hall songs were derived from Traditional songs .

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:04 AM

Sweet Thames isn't really "folk", and was written by a "Salford Scotsman", so I wouldn't myself consider it "London folk" - others have different views, though.

Beaux of London City (the Knowing Maccaroni Outwitted) is a possibility - but not much of a song! Set in St James's Park

Beaux of London City

Carthy sings Three Cripples (in London)

The first known version of Black Velvet Band was set in Barking,

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:15 AM

Two crackers spring to mind: Artichokes & Cauliflowers and London Waterman, from the singing of Bob Roberts.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: brezhnev
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 05:33 AM

I'll do you copies of the Critics Group's Merry Progress and Sweet Thames albums if you want them. PM me.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:53 AM

There will be thousands of them.   Having found a few hundred items looking for things that related to something specific about Edinburgh, I considered doing London, but realized I'd have to live there ten years to do it.

Try Simpson's "The British Broadside Ballad and its Music" for a start, then look at the Roxburghe ballad collection.

Given current British paranoia about Islam (a re-run of Titus Oates's "Popish Plot" of the 1680s), I reckon "Buggering Oates, Prepare Thy Neck" might be due for a revival. It's got a great tune.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,quokka
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 07:58 AM

"Streets of London"

*getting coat and sprinting out the door...

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 09:53 AM

thanks for the great info.taking each in turn
1 thanks parvane i had no idea all round my hat was connected to london
2 thaks leadfingers will check cosmotheka out
3thanks parvane i understand the salford scotsman sentiment. i recently heard damien barber and mike wilson sing the joy of living a song by maccoll that i did not know.on the basis of this song alone the man was a genius and therefore sweet thames is in.
not heard of three cripples.would love it if the black velvet band had o london connection.can anyone add anymore info?
4tthanks astray.not heard bob roberts will keep a look out on youtube and ebay
thanks breznev.would love to hear them.what does pm me mean?
6 thanks jack campin.not much luck.i sing and play guitar.i dont read music so i need to hear a version of the broadside ballad to have a go e.g a guy named raymond crooke has put a huge no. of child ballads on youtube. and thats a great help
7thanks quokka.one of my favourite songs but as you say perhaps too contemporary to be thought of as traditional

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:16 AM

The broadsides in Simpson are mostly not Child ballads - a huge number of them are about dramatic events in London's history. Child ballads are not at all what you want.

The tunes from Simpson are in ABC in Bruce Olson's site (archived here, look at the dropdown). Unfortunately Bruce used an archaic ABC program so you'll have to do a lot of editing to make them usable, probably beyond what somebody who can't read music could manage. But it's not that hard to learn - a couple of hours a day for about a month for most people.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:27 AM

thanks again pavane.there was a huge thread about the black velvet band and a number of london versions.not wanting to divert from the original thread but although from london my background is irish.i keep finding songs that are celebrated in ireland have an english version or source that i've never heard.the merry ploughboy springs to mind.anyway that is the start of another thread.i wonder if english folk singers are intimidated by songs that have such high irish profile.put black velvet band into youtube and you'll find hundreds of people doing the irish version.
i'm definitely gong to do an english version.anyway bring on the london songs

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 10:38 AM

GUEST - be wary of assuming that a song comes from a particular place simply because that place (or even a feature thereof) happens to be mentioned in the text. Many songs were 'customised' for a particular locality by local singers.

Your original post includes the Grey Cock, presumably because a popular version mentions 'the burning Thames'. However, that version was collected in 1951 - the song itself has a much longer history.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: brezhnev
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:16 AM

re sending you the two Critics albums: just need an email address to send them to. if you don't want to make your address public, register with Mudcat and then you can send me a private message (PM - it's next to the name on each post) with the address enclosed.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:19 AM

Villikins and his Dinah is a definitive London song, totally dependent on the dialect. And also the melody of a million other songs.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: G-Force
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

If you've no rooted objection to them, the occasional non-trad song can improve the mix.

e.g. 'London Pride' by Noel Coward. Or even 'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner'.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:44 AM

'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner' by Hubert Greg - he had a program on BBC R2 until he died last year - also wrote "Hitler has only got one Ball" for the war effor.

Other candidates
The Rat Catchers daughter
If it wasn't for the 'ouses in between (Music Hall song)

John Foreman used to do the cockney alphabet

A is for 'orses
B for - and after
C for yourself
d efer
e fer brick ('eave a brick)

and so on

And a joke about sex

"Sex is different in London, you know, not like it is down here..etc..
In London, sex is what your coal comes in

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:48 AM

Three Cripples is a story of three (some versions five) people with various disabilities go to drink in a pub - when the time comes to pay the bill, they start taking off wooden legs, removing glass eyes, until the landlord tells them to go - without paying, of course. Probably scaring off the customers.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

"Modern" songs - humorous:

Dahn below (a song of the sewers)
With her head tucked underneath her arm (She walks the bloody tower)
Sweeny Todd

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:03 PM

Handsome Molly starts

"Oh I wish I was in London, or some other seaport town". Not as overdone as some songs.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:14 PM

cheers pavane,i googled it and it was on a martin carthy album 'because its there'.i'm somwetimes dubious of songs that are not more widely sung as it can often mean that it may have been unearthed from a traditional source but not particu;arly a good sopng.thanks for the humorous songs but for now i;m concentrating on traditional london folk songs as i hope that may be a big enough task.
i was thimking of perhaps even creating a chart of most popular london songs.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:24 PM

just googled hansome molly and martin simpson did a version. i wish i was in london or some other seaport town? could this refer to aother london perhaps?

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:25 PM

"Bright Gold" as sung by Peter Bellamy, was also printed as "The London Merchant"

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:28 PM

I'm not sure that is the same Handsome Molly (Carthy etc) I have "Because it's there" and don't recall this song. Was that one Molly on the shore? Different song altogether

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:28 PM

A lot of topical songs fall out of use because people forget what they were about, not because they're bad songs. That can be fixed with a few explanations.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

There is a version of "box on her head" which starts "Tis of a fair yung damsel who in London did dwell" but this is probably one of those cases where it is changed to suit the printer's location.

Geordy (or Georgy) "As I rode over London Bridge, one misty morning early"

There is a London version of the Beggar
"Of all the trades in London, a beggar is the best" which includes a reference to Pimlico

"9 times a night" can be found on a Nic Jones CD. A version starts "A buxom young fellow from London came down". Has a good joke at the end

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 12:49 PM

"Cam ye o'er frae France" is set in London, too

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GRex
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM

"Eros", words by Sidney Carter to the tune of Yankee Doodle for a little humour.

          Grex

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Singing Referee
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:22 PM

Limehouse Reach, Lyrics Cicely Fox-Smith, melody Dave Webber

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:22 PM

Pavane - Dahn Below, like Eros, was penned by Sydney Carter!

Kitty

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

Not sure who wrote it, but Max Bygraves sang it - Stanley and Dora were lovers, met down the Tottenham Court Road.

Kitty

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM

There's a London version of Jack of all Trades

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

Numerous traditional songs mention London as their locale. Examples:

some versions of Butcher Boy: "In London city I did dwell ..."

some versions of Barbara Allen: "In London city where I was born, there was a fair maid dwellin'"

Blow the Candles Out "When I was apprenticed in London ... "

or

"I was a chambermaid down in Drury Lane" from Bell Bottom Trousers.

These examples might be multiplied many times.

Bob

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:19 AM

The Oyster Girl was set in Bishopsgate

Lass of London City (Sung by Nic Jones - version of White Copper Alley)

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Old Vermin
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:23 AM

Bailiff's Daughter of Islington

My old man said follow the van

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:00 AM

thanks everybody i don't know where to start
1.thanks greg vilikins and dinah is a great help
2thanks pavane.i checked nics discography and could not find bright gold or 9 times.box on her head i found.the beggar,a song i/ve heard sung, i couldn't find this wversion just lots of versions of the jolly beggasrman.
4 thanks kitty sydney carter is new to me and i will investigate further when i've more time
5 thanks referee i'veheard dave webber sing many times and will look out for this song
6thanks kitty. i do believe i've heard this song but couldn#t find any info on it except max celebrated his 67th wedding anniv in 2009.congrats
7thanks mo.iknow jack of all trades from the singing of the johnstons unable to find a london version.
8 thanks again lavane found lyrics to box on her head,now looking out for the tune.found geordy by another name.couldn.t find a london version of the beggar but know the song and will keep looking
9thanks bob.i love the butcher boy but sing the wild and wicked youth to the same tune.blow the canles out is great.never been a big fan of barbara allen but thats personal taste.found lyrics to bell bottom trousers in mudcat will further investigate a tune for it.
thanks again pavane.could not find the oyster girl but did find the lass of london on the nis jones cd
9thanks vermin found a great version of bailiffs daughter on youtube
thanks to all who have contributed i'm really glad i started this thread.i'm looking forward to putting a list together and recordimg my favourites.other than the criticcs group i'm surprised this has not been done before but maybe it has

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:30 AM

Nine Times a night is track 20 (CD2) on Unearthed (Nic Jones)

Bright Gold (Peter Bellamy, not Nic) - was actually called The Old Miser on "So Cheerfully Round", by Young Tradition . Sorry for the wrong title.

The Beggar (London version) You must scroll right to see it

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:35 AM

Don't know of any recording of the Oyster girl but the tune is well-known.

The Oyster Girl two versions

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:45 AM

9 times a night


Billy don't you cry for me (also Nic Jones) is set in London, too
"I'm going to St James's Park" but that's the only real evidence

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:53 AM

May I suggest "The Rigs of London Town"
Very famous London Folk Song
Al

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:57 AM

Nautically "M.V. Hardship" [see MN perm. thread]... from London to Kiwi is a hell of a way", and "...to Charlie Brown's with our pay off we'll flock...."
Charlie Brown'sreal name 'The Railway' is [was?] just outside the West India Dock entrancenear to the Commercial Road Limehouse.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:24 AM

1thanks pavane will look out for both the nic jones and young tradition cds.as you say the oyster girl tune is well known i might try to put the words to the tune
2 cheers alan
3thanks ron.got your lyrics from mudcat and certainly is a london song.any versions i could look out for or on any cd's,i;ve found youtube great for accessibility but it will take longer for songs on cds.the hardest are the broadside ballads if i haven't heard them and they wern't recorded the oral tradition is great but quite slow and i'm not a very ptient person

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:28 AM

Ratcliffe Highway?

There's versions of The Sailor Cut Down in His Prime with London docks references.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM

Indeed. The Lock Hospital mentioned in some versions of "The Sailor cut down" was in London.

Ratcliffe Highway already mentioned. (As was the Rigs of London)

There are plenty more broadsides, but I ignored most of them because there is no tune or recording to be found.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:41 AM

M.V. Hardship tune is Villicins & his Dinnah.

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM

"Rag Fair" ~~ "Without any expectations I rambled London town ... Cursed... the day that I was born, That ever I saw London or any seaport town."

Learned from Peter Bellamy: on my Youtube channel

http//www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer


Funny to think London till recently, tho an upriver inland town, had the biggest seagoing dockland area in the world. And now all gone ~~ every bit. Docklands, as nostalgic name for that bit of my native Town, always rings sad to me, who used in one job I had to write dozens of delivery orders for goods from ship or wharfside at any one of a dozen Docks around Ratcliffe, Deptford, Wapping, Isle of Dogs, Limehouse...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:26 PM

I learnt Stanley and Dora from Folk School Camps in the 1960s - it was Jerry Jordan who told me, when I was booked at Valmai's Lewes folk club, that Max Bygraves had sung it when he lived in Stanmore and I found out that Valmai, Anthony Bygraves and I had all attended the same primary school.... this would also have been around the time that the Dominion (where Dora worked as an usherette) was showing Cleopatra followed by the Sound of Music!

I don't think Polly Perkins of Paddington Green has been mentioned as a London song yet?

Kitty

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,MsLiz
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:14 PM

The Rich Irish Lady "to London came, a beautiful lady, Sar-o by name" (Peggy Seeger recorded this)
And there's also In London So Fair "a lady she lived there/a lady of great honor and great might." (Peta Webb recorded this one. Bohola also.)

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST,MsLiz
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM

I forgot the immortal song, "I'll bet you a Kangaroo" which contains the lines:
Come on boys, give it a chance
London ladies just love to dance

I believe it was sung by Ms. Olivia Neutron Bomb

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:38 PM

1.thanks manitas lock hospital is definitely in
2.thanks mthegm had a looa your youtube channel.very good.rag fair enters the lon folk song chartsdon
3thanks kitty.polly from paddingto green is a contender but i'm not a great fan of the song which is a pity because i grew up not far from there.
4 thanks ms liz i've not had much success with the peta webb recording but this may surface as she is a folk artist of renown
5 i'm thinking of drawing up a list and dividing it into various categories.the premier league are the greater known songs that are to be found recorded on youtube.next the championship songs .these are the songs recorded on currently available cd format.next the songs that people are aware of that have been recorded on deleted vinyl.next the songs never recorded but sung in folk clubs /pubs etc.
next the ballads that are considered london songs that are on broadside form but nobody sings or know how they go.
i believe there should be relegation and promotion possibilities.for example a song on a vinyl lp could be relegated if it could not be proved that a copy of such vinyl actually exists.
i know youtube is a very crude measure of a songs position in the folk world but its the most accessible media.to those who spent their time in the cecil sharpe library paying their dues digging out the songs we know and love much thanks

Subject: RE: london folk songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:52 PM

If it wasn't for the Houses in Between