'More pretentious than Bellowhead'

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 06:07 AM

Why have a pop at Jim? I happen to think he is an extremely talented musician and an excellent singer. He also has some good ideas about arranging and folk music.

Heard his latest CD?

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 06:03 AM

Yes Alex - I was avin a lurf

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 05:58 AM

Quite possibly, but could he play the solo at the end of Bristol Harbour? (for that matter, could Nic have done it? probably not.)

The Sidmouth mishap must have been embarrassing, but the guy isn't without his area of expertise.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 05:46 AM

Hey Sam - bet you can play the opening to Candadidio better than Jim did at Sidmouth - even if you are otherwise useless!

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:38 AM

Ha ha! Nice troll Sam. Glad your sense of humour is intact.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Gary Keeper
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:19 AM

Another one of these "nu-folk" pretenders who has seems to be darling of the month in the folk scene, but is musically bereft and sorely lacking in talent or technique is Bellowhead's own Sam Sweeney. A less able working "musician" would be very hard to find.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: mattkeen
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM

Well thanks for that Dot - I completely irrelevant, dig at Jim Doug.

"As for D Perkins..........................."

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Dorothy Peterson
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

After all this debate and posturing I don't think anyone's any nearer a resolution to this bizarre thread. What I would say is that Bellowhead, and everyone mentioned in any of these postings, are far more appealing and far less pretentious than Jim Moray (or should that be Doug Oates) with his whiny voice and uninspiring, try-hard, must do better, appeal to the lowest common denominator arrangements.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:47 AM

Peter Cropper said he couldn't play folk - his playing did not have the right "voice" he said and no matter how much he tried he just couldn't do it!

Cf. the "get Swarb!" story about the Transports - the violinist in Roddy Skeaping's ensemble was a terrific player from the dots, but (by his own admission) he couldn't do the looser stuff that was also needed. I think you can hear the difference if you listen to the final track on the original recording, the Convicts' Dance: it's good, but you can tell it's being played from a score. (Mind you, I think you can only really hear the difference when you're comparing with really good playing by ear; I play by ear myself, and a good reader can play me out of the room.)

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 11:25 AM

Still waiting (in hope) for confirmation that Catherine Foster actually is the Brunhilde lady. And that the real reason she thinks all those folk performers are 'mediocre' is that they should be doing it more like Peter Pears.

Much good sense from Tom Bliss at 9.40 on Oct 7, but beware, Tom, of arguing your excellent points so systematically that you imply a degree of intellectual respectability in Catherine / Brunhilde's original diatribe.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 10:46 AM

Joe Townsend. Now there's a fiddle player/violinist/musician who seems able to transcend styles with ease. One of a very few. The only other player I've ever heard who has been able to do that convincingly is Giles Lewin.


Dave

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 10:42 AM

Sheffield Hmmm? Have your ears been burning?

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM

Sheffield City Giant's (and occasionally Sheffield City Morris and Sciorr) have a trained classical fiddle player/violinist playing for them (ex-CBSO). When she first started she couldn't play folkie stuff. She was doing a number of things outside her comfort zone: without music in front of her; outside in the open air; alone; stood up; etc etc. When she saw a group of folk fiddle players on the stage at Warwick Festival for the first time she was gob-smacked at the talent.

I went to a concert in Sheffield this time last year with a classical player, (Peter Cropper) two people best known as "traddies" (Alistair Anderson and Catriona MacKay) and another fiddle player who crossed both sides, (Donald Grant was brought up in the tradition - but is now best known as a classical fiddler). Peter Cropper said he couldn't play folk - his playing did not have the right "voice" he said and no matter how much he tried he just couldn't do it! Donald Grant played the same jig "classically" and "folky" to illustrate the difference.

Incidentally where would you place Joe Broughton as a fiddle player?

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 10:25 AM

It seems that Jim is allowed to continue his rubbishing of UK folk clubs but I have no right of reply.

I'm a bit busy helping to run a folk festival this weekend so I'll get back to you.

Here's a snippet to be going on with.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 10:19 AM

"quotes about criticism" ...

For which thanks, Richard. I take it these were in response to my querying of your previous assertion that 'we all know about critics', as to what precisely we all know. Predictably, the quotes contradict one another ~~Aristotle was all for critics, Eli Wallach isn't: So we aren't much forrader with regard to what 'we ALL know', are we?

Best critical regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 09:13 AM

1) They're certainly a bunch of musicians who can play their instruments

2) Some of the musical arrangements are brilliant (Cold Blows the Wind, The Hand Weaver and the Factory Maid, New York Girls)

3) Some of the musical arrangements are awful:

Parson's Farewell - No better than a GCSE composition (trust me, I've heard lots)
Amsterdam - Basically a crescendo on Greensleeves (they've butchered Brel)
Broomfield Hill - Chintzy folk with disparate stylistic wanderings and pedantic, hackneyed word painting

4) Despite the fact Parson's Farewell is awful, the record needs more than the two tunes on it. The strength of the band is in its instrumental playing. The vocals of Boden are not strong enough or engaging enough and begin to grate really quickly.

On the whole, I don't think it's "mediocre", it does have it's faults though (and it must have cost a fortune!)

******************************************************************************************

I agree with all of that

Guest

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Gedi
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:49 AM

I've been reading this thread over the last couple of days and I have to say it makes fascinating reading. I endorse wholeheartedly Tom Bliss's comments, they sum up the situation very nicely.

But for me the real folk scene is not Bellowhead, or any of the other names mentioned (no offence intended), but in the grass roots singarounds and sessions such as takes place at The Beech in Chorlton, and the fabulous weekend of music, singing and dancing (Morris, French and other styles) that just took place in Tideswell in the Peak District (organised by the Freaks in the Peaks). And anyone who says that the Folk movement in England is dying really should come along to the next event to see just how wrong you are. Wonderful stuff.....

Ged

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

Could we please take the "impending" row as read :)

Catherine claims that the top folk performers "would not cut it in any other genre". She's probably right, but the reverse is also true. Attempts by opera or rock singers to sing folk songs are usually painful. Does anyone remember Yehudi Menuhin's embarrassing attempts at playing jazz violin?

Different genres have different performance values as well as different techniques, and it is misguided to judge one genre by the values of another.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 07:40 AM

"Sound of breath not being held?"
Assuming you're referring to an impending row between Bryan and me, don't worry Les - it is this type of dishonesty that goes through these discussions like Blackpool goes through rock and makes me think that fRoots has a point.
I really can't be arsed when it sinks to this level.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 06:11 AM

Sound of breath not being held?

L in C#

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:57 AM

"No Jim, the outrage was because you claimed that ALL UK folk music was mediocre or worse and would be better swept away"
I would love to see where I said that Bryan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Amy Taylor
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:49 AM

Hi Hesk,

New Year's evening "bellowing" sounds great - in fact I was lucky enough to attend their New Year's Eve party at the Southbank Centre. At that concert Benji, Paul, Rachael and even Pete did step up to the mark to take the lead (albeit on cover versions of popular songs), so I'm not so sure they're that backward at coming forward!

If I remember rightly, at the Valentine's Day concert of slightly more risque material they performed at the Queen Elizabeth Hall, Benji took lead on a song as well. Unfortunately I can't remember the name of it.

I would love to hear these different lead voices consigned to record or, indeed, utilised in their live performances.

Amy

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Hesk
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 05:34 AM

Hi Amy,

Paul is an acquaintance, and I have met some of the others several times, including a memorable New Year's evening at the pub at Wherwell, having an all out "bellow"!
The point is, that far from being pretentious, they come across as quite modest, especially Benji, who I would imagine would fight shy of taking the lead vocal. Paul, although a great singer, would not fight for a place as a lead vocalist, either, or so it would seem.
I don't think I have met Rachael, so can't comment.
I too, love the band, and have all their CD's.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Amy Taylor
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:55 AM

Hiya,

This is my first time posting here, but I've lurked for a while. I really love the energetic discussions that this board throws up (that sounds worse than I meant it!), but I must take issue with Catherine Foster's damning of the tradition and those experts who are successfully keeping it alive and healthy.

I am a fan of Bellowhead and have been for nearly it's entire existence. I love all of the records and I think the new one is great, although maybe it doesn't live up to all the hype.

What I do find extraordinary and a great shame is that despite the wealth of vocal talent in that band, including Benji Kirkpatrick, Paul Sartin and Rachael Mcshane, no-one else is given an opportunity to sing lead. Don't get me wrong, I think Jon Boden does a fair job, but I would love to hear others taking centre stage and really exploiting the talent and potential sound world within their ranks.

Amy Taylor

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:43 AM

quotes about criticism

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 10 - 04:05 AM

"Don't get there very often but the last time was for Bill Whaley and Dave Fletcher. Brilliant."

Indeed they are, and not at all pretentious (unless you count Bill's pretending to be a mardy old sod, which those of us who know him can assure everyone that, in Real Life, he absolutely isn't!). :-) :-)

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 07:03 PM

Rob Naylor

Not just in Tonbridge. The one at The Beacon in Tunbridge Wells has some pretty good people on....

My deepest apologies, how could I forget. Don't get there very often but the last time was for Bill Whaley and Dave Fletcher. Brilliant.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:08 PM

TheSnail: I rather think that someone from Tunbridge Wells knows rather more about current UK folk music than someone from Miltown Malbay in fact, there is a very good club just up the road in Tonbridge.

Not just in Tonbridge. The one at The Beacon in Tunbridge Wells has some pretty good people on....with a fairly intimate but good singaround on alternate fortnights. There are 2 or maybe 3 other regular sessions actually in Tunbridge Wells, and within 30 minutes drive you can get to a (or several) great club(s) or session(s) virtually every night in the week. Mondays are a real problem...there are usually 3 or 4 to choose from.

OK, there are some medicore performers (I'm one!) but there are a LOT of excellent ones too, and it's good that those of us who are less than perfect performers do actually get a chance. I don't think we drive anyone away, because the ratio of good performers to medicore is uually biasedon the good side. Interstingly, at the last session I attended in town, there was a young lad of Irish extraction who said that he only ever played or sang Irish tunes...he refused to believe it when I pointed out that everything he'd played that night was either English or Scottish in origin...the songs were "too good to not be Irish"! :-)

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 01:46 PM

The same night we had Martin Carthy at the Lewes Arms across the road. When we came downstairs after tidying up we found Martin with a glass in his hand looking rather bewildered along with most of Bellowhead, their manager, their roadies and quite a lot of the audience including several members of the Copper family. It's a small pub; I don't think the landlord knew what had hit him. He certainly seemed to forget all about closing time. Jon Boden apologised for the clash. I said "You sold out. We sold out. No problem.". A night to remember.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

I first got to know of them through fellow musicians - I'd never seen them on TV, heard them on the radio or spotted anything in the press about them. Eventually, some mates were off to see them at a gig in Lewes, so I went along - and was knocked out by their musicianship, style, humour, presentation and the music itself. (This was at the time when they'd put out the "EPOnymous" and "Burlesque" albums and were about to release "Matachin"). They were very refreshing - and bloody good entertainment. Lewes Town Hall was packed out and, by the end, there were masses of people dancing in front of the stage, having a whale of a time. And the Harveys was very tasty as well!

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 01:16 PM

I'm interested as to why so many punters want to watch Bellowhead. No doubt marketing and TV exposure play a part, but plenty of acts get coverage on folk radio without the same crush. No doubt a few will say it's easy listening but is it? I don't think so.
Clearly B'head are giving a lot of people a lot of pleasure while keeping the tradition going and I can't see anything wrong with that.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:54 PM

Jim Carroll

For all Lizzie's somewhat hysterical stridency - of course there is a great deal of medeocrity to be found in folk.
When I first suggested this to be the case some time back I was met with such a tidal wave of "outrage from Tunbridge Wells"

No Jim, the outrage was because you claimed that ALL UK folk music was mediocre or worse and would be better swept away. I rather think that someone from Tunbridge Wells knows rather more about current UK folk music than someone from Miltown Malbay in fact, there is a very good club just up the road in Tonbridge.

that I thought I was completely off beam and I was prepared to accept that I was too long away from home to make any sort of reasonable assessment

I must have blinked and missed that.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:46 PM

We're assuming, of course, that Catherine IS the operatic Catherine Foster...

Oh dear. I assumed people would realise my reference to THAT Catherine Foster was intended as a joke. I hope we haven't caused the lady any embarrassment.

Like Richard I find myself in the peculiar position of agreeing with Lizzie. I'm inclined to think that THIS Catherine Foster is a wind up, quite possibly perpetrated by a regular Mudcatter.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:26 PM

Sorry - forgot to say - Nellie Forbush is a character in "South Pacific"!

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 12:25 PM

We're assuming, of course, that Catherine IS the operatic Catherine Foster...

I recall a programme hosted, many years ago on Radio 2, by the jazz saxophonist and jazz critic the late Benny Green. He was discussing the then trend of opera singers to get involved with other forms of musical and, in particular, was comparing a recording of Kiri Te Kanawa (as Nellie Forbush) to the singing of Mary Martin. His fairly scornful comment, after playing the two versions of "I'm gonna wash that man right out of my hair", was Kiri Te Kanawa just couldn't cut it. She had good classical operatic training, a superb voice, etc. - but that essential, hard-to-define "it". In other words, different musical genres require different approaches and techniques - and critiques.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,D. Brinkman
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:45 AM

"When Nancy was ill with a sore throat and was unable to fulfil a booking at our local folk club, James still came and brought Rob Habron with him in her stead and gave us an excellent evening"


I wish more people would do that. Eliza?

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:36 AM

Indeed.

Perhaps Catherine is not aware how our indigenous music became 'alternative' or at least a minority or 'acquired' taste in the first place.

This did not happen because of any intrinsic lack of quality in the songs or tunes (though there are some real dogs for sure). Rather, public taste has been developed by education and the entertainment industry in two directions - both of which have taken us away from the older styles of playing and singing.

One of those is of course the whole classical 'eye-to-hand-avoiding-the-ear' disaster, which has been blunting children's musical development for far too long, and distancing us all from the aural systems we were born with.

The other is the whole mid Atlantic popular music phenomenon, which does of course overlay with folk at one end of the spectrum, but at the other we have to deal with 100 years of Ear Wax poured from loudspeakers various, which is kind of hard to hear though.

I've had members of my own family decline to come to my gigs because, they explained, they were classical musicians, and they knew they wouldn't like it. And they probably wouldn't - I don't sing 100% in tune and my voice is kind of scratchy and they've been brought up to notice and mind about things like that. No problem.

And I've got loads of chums from the rock world who love scratchy out of tune vocals, but won't come because they think they won't like the songs. Until some of them did - and couldn't talk about anything else for days!

I understand where Catherine's coming from. There's a huge gap between the two mainstream popular cultures and our musical heritage and we need to do something about that, but you can't bridge the gap by forcing folk in either of the other two directions.

Classical and pop both grew out of folk, so the only way to lead people back to that root is by getting them to notice the flowers and the fruits, and then lead them gently back down the branches and the truck to the best place to sit and listen to music...

With your back against the tree.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 11:33 AM

'Hence my use of the words "may I respectfully suggest", as opposed to "let me remind Comrade Cringe".'

Thanks, Pip. That made me chuckle!

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:49 AM

Well said Tom. I have been scratching my head trying to find a way of expressing my feelings about Catherine's comments. You expressed my feelings very well and in a polite manner.

I would really like to see Catherine expand on her comments and explain why she thinks the artists she listed are mediocre. Having seen Nancy Kerr and James Fagan perform, I found them anything but mediocre. They are also thoroughly professional in their approach. When Nancy was ill with a sore throat and was unable to fulfil a booking at our local folk club, James still came and brought Rob Habron with him in her stead and gave us an excellent evening. No question of withdrawing even though it is a small club and he could not expect a large audience.

I would also like to see her justify this statement in more detail.

What upsets me so much is that this is music that our entire nation should be celebrating and as long as we present it in this kind of way, Joe Public isn't going to sit up and take notice. No other nation would stand for their traditional music being treated as such.

Like you, Tom, I have no great love of the operatic singing style and, to me, Wagnerian Opera represents it at its most extreme. That, however, is a matter of personal taste, and I would suggest that Catherine needs to show that her comments go beyond personal taste.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:35 AM

Wise words well said, Tom.
You certainly speak for me.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 10:10 AM

Exlnt Tom I feel sure you speak for many

L in C#

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:40 AM

Takes deep breath and holds nose...

Catherine, if you're reading this may I try to explain a little why some people are affronted by your remarks? This is partly because no-one has, I feel, forensically addressed the remarks you've made about friends who (as I'm sure you know yourself) are effectively denied a right to reply by the rules of the game, and partly because I think you may not be giving due attention to some key sub-texts to the folk music agenda - and market.

I hope you already appreciate that folk music (accepting the broadest use of the term) has at least three axes:

The first is the performance/participation axis. This, unlike the world of opera, is a continuum from extreme skill and expert presentation at one end, to cheerful self-expression (with its roots back into history) at the other. The latter is often more prized than the former, because this is 'Folk' (People) music - need I say more. And there is much more movement up and down this scale than you'll find in classical or opera, because different people are perceived to offer different strengths under different circumstances, according to the intersection of the other two axes. So technically poor musicians like me manage to get onto big festival stages, and even be admired there, because we're representing something other than technical excellence which is perceived to be of value.

The second axis is about style/repertoire. A 'poor' performer may also be lionised because he or she is able to present specific material or skill (such as the playing of a rare instrument or multi-instrumental abilities), or some other thing of beauty or interest. In this, authenticity (this comes in many guises) is prized over artifice - so the untrained voice is often perceived to have more beauty than the trained one. I'll be honest now (I rarely say things like this in public, but I think I must since you have been so frank yourself) - I actually have to leave the room if I hear bel canto. I'm not being personal - I genuinely can't stand the sound of trained vibrato, it grates on my ears something rotten and always has.

And the third is the historical/cultural one. Folk music taps back into and overlaps with an area of genuine academic concern - and because of this, many key people in the folk world have an academic interest which they champion or defend, which can look like 'out of touch historianism' if you're not paying proper attention.

Now, you named a few acts back there. I would put all of them at the top end of the scale of technical quality - in ANY arena. I doubt Nancy's style (she's worked just as hard on her instrument as you have on yours) would get her a chair in the LSO, but how many of them can play authentic fiddle, AND sing at the same time? And then, for heaven's sake start dancing as well!? And please understand that doesn't do this just to show off (though that's a perfectly adequate reason and we're happy to pay for it) but because there's whole traditions of this sort of thing which we'd pay to witness even if it was being done very badly indeed.

All of those acts also perform in theatres and venues well outside of the 'hallowed insular walls' of folk, and all of them win over newcomers with their honesty, authenticity, technical and creative ability (yes, indeedy) and charisma.

Others have asked you to name some folk artists who you do admire.

I'd also like to know how many folk festivals you've been to. Are you sure there was not technical problem that night which impacted on the performances? It happens, and without the luxury of a 58 piece orchestra and an army of fawning assistants you can wind up being pretty exposed up there.

Tom


I would have sent this message to you personally, but you have only provided emails for your agents on your website. You can find my mail and phone numbers on mine.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Barry Denning
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:25 AM

Hello everyone,

As this seems to have become more specifically about Bellowhead and mediocrity I thought I'd throw my hat in.

I recently acquired their latest record, "Hedonism" and here are thoughts on it, with reference to Catherine Foster's points.

1) They're certainly a bunch of musicians who can play their instruments

2) Some of the musical arrangements are brilliant (Cold Blows the Wind, The Hand Weaver and the Factory Maid, New York Girls)

3) Some of the musical arrangements are awful:

Parson's Farewell - No better than a GCSE composition (trust me, I've heard lots)
Amsterdam - Basically a crescendo on Greensleeves (they've butchered Brel)
Broomfield Hill - Chintzy folk with disparate stylistic wanderings and pedantic, hackneyed word painting

4) Despite the fact Parson's Farewell is awful, the record needs more than the two tunes on it. The strength of the band is in its instrumental playing. The vocals of Boden are not strong enough or engaging enough and begin to grate really quickly.

On the whole, I don't think it's "mediocre", it does have it's faults though (and it must have cost a fortune!)

Barry

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:07 AM

PS Now then, Pip, Mudcat doesn't work on the basis of democratic centralism.

Hence my use of the words "may I respectfully suggest", as opposed to "let me remind Comrade Cringe". (Good name for a band, actually.)

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:03 AM

All I can say is that I've been bored, irritated, annoyed, baffled and infuriated by a number of Mudcat posters in the past, but not one of those people could be characterised as a joyless, closed-minded traddie pendant. Infuriating cranks, we get 'em. Conservative traddies, we get 'em. Infuriatingly crankish conservative traddies... not so much.

I really do think this manoeuvre is just beards and pullovers at one remove. "Folkies, you're all wrong about folkies, folkies are great - except for those other folkies of course! God, they're awful!"

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 09:00 AM

>Richard Bridge: "Foster is ignorance and prejudice impersonating a critic. And we all know about critics."<

Well, I happen to be a critic, Richard [mostly theatre nowadays, but Folk also for many years, as oldies on this thread may recall].

So, please, Richard ~~ WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT ME?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM

In response to my phrase: "the pig-headed views of a small handful of Mudcat contributors", Pip suggested:

Could I respectfully suggest that when people posting elsewhere start pointing fingers at those awful, closed-minded, reactionary Mudcatters, posters on Mudcat refrain from joining in?

Now then, Pip, Mudcat doesn't work on the basis of democratic centralism. There's no party line to promote and its a broad church rather than a united front. And I think I'm grown up enough to make my own mind up about things rather than simply agreeing with what Ian AA says, though in this case I do think he has a perfectly valid point, as does Mudcat founder Max.

I'm not going to name names here (but I may pass you a short list at the school gates when no-one's looking). For me, it's not necessarily about some posters' views on folk music, rather its about how the dreary and/or confontational manner in which they put these views across. It can appear on occasion that there's not a single ounce of joy or pleasure to be had from the music - so much so that you could be mistaken for thinking they're discussing a dessicated husk rather what can at its best be a vibrant, breathtaking and spellbinding form.

It makes me very glad I started listening to traditional music before I started reading discussion forums about it...

**********************

Catherine's original critcisms seemed to be partly about standards of musicianship and singing. One of the reasons I like folk music is that usually its not all about technique and flash - at its best there is a rawness and soulfulness that I suspect no amount of formal training can teach anyone. Not saying that musical abilty doesn't come into it, but without the soul and passion it can be a sterile beast.

I suppose, to draw a 70s rock parallel, its why I'd take the Stooges over ELP any day. Or Jonathan Richman over James Taylor.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:44 PM

But not everyone wishes to run the Mudcat gauntlet, or submit to the star chamber of self appointed experts. Identikit arguments, even down to the same cut and paste, are posted by the same poeple and I still disagree with the original premise two years later.
You are entitled to call Catherine names like misanthrope, so long as you regnise (to paraphrase) it tells us more about the name caller than the original complainant.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 07:04 PM

Or indeed give her the right to believe she's finished her answer or claim the 5th.

At the cost of completely disregarding what she's said. Anyone can say that everything is rubbish: it conveys no information. If someone says that A, B, C, D and E are rubbish, it tells us nothing unless they also say what they think isn't rubbish.

So, Catherine: either you're just a grumpy old misanthrope, in which case we can disregard everything you say, or else there's something specific that you do actually like, in which case pray tell.

Subject: RE: 'More pretentious than Bellowhead'
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 06:46 PM

"Oh, several amazements. I have to agree with something Mad Lizzie wrote."

Ha! I *knew* I'd get you one day, Grumpy! ;0)