BS: Closing the BS section

Subject: BS: Closing the BS section
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:12 AM

As many of you have seen, Joe is sick of the attacks and name calling. He has thought of eliminating the whole BS section. I can't say I blame him, it does get tedious.
I enjoy the BS section; it is a source of entertainment and knowledge. As I'm fond of saying, "I have never learned anything from someone who agrees with me."

What say folks? Do we clean up our act, or get booted out of town?

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:31 AM

"I don't care who started it, now both behave or both get punished" actually vindicates calculated bullying. It removes the ability of the oppressed to strike back. I would go further but my remark above is general whereas to go further would stray into what I though was the only area of speech in the Mudcat that was prohibited, namely its moderation.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:45 AM

Personal attacks are not and never have been permitted. Everyone knows that, and as the old saying goes, "If you know the dog bites...."

My suggestion, if you need to kick ass, do it in a PM, not in the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: C-flat
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:58 AM

Closing the BS section won't achieve anything other than moving those comments back upstairs.
If someone wants be unpleasant on an open forum like this there's not much to stop them other than patient moderating or by giving the children somewhere they can trade insults without bothering others.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:13 AM

I thought most of this had now stopped. Did I miss something?

I've learnt LOADS from the BS section. Actually, I'd give it another name, because there are some real 'quality' threads on here..and it's as much a community as upstairs is.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: gnomad
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:13 AM

I would be sorry to see the demise of the BS section, to me it is part of what makes us a dispersed community, rather than a bunch of navel-gazing introverts.

Joe and the clones have my sympathy, keeping order must be a soul-destroying business at times. Could an increase in their number lighten the load a little?

I'm unsure that elimination of the BS section would cure the problems as people will always drift off-topic, especially if "on-topic" is narrowly defined. Differing cultures and usages will also give rise to misunderstandings and widely-separated points of view. Keeping a BS listing has the virtue of enabling those who wish the wider forum to be indulged, while permitting the more focused to ignore, or even filter-out, the bulk of what has no interest for them. Of course that doesn't work for Joe & Co, maybe a rotation system allowing them some breaks from responsibility for the BS section might help?

As for the suggestion "clean up or get out" I have no quarrel with that. I have not noticed a lot of misbehaving recently, though I still have my own mental list of people whose posts I largely ignore as being bad for my sanity, or stress-levels. That is, of course, sadly a luxury the moderators cannot afford themselves.

Does Mudcat's onlie-begetter Max have a view on this, it would surely be rather important?

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:18 AM

"Did I miss something?"

Ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:26 AM

Thought it was Max's call, not Joe's?

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:44 AM

Maybe Guests should be barred from BS threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: ragdall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:47 AM

Maybe Guests should be barred from BS threads.

Maybe members who pose as guests for the purpose of hiding while attacking other members, could be given a long holiday from posting?

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:52 AM

That too

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:27 AM

if you get rid of guests, you don't get to enrich the gene pool. it would be sterile if every BS thread started by saying "we" rather than "me."

I choose to use guest. I did have a log in under another name, but got a bit fed up by people who had problems wit me having views that don't coincide with theirs, and sending pm's to me. As I was having a few chats in pm's with old mates, sorting them became tiresome.

No, nothing wrong with debate, nothing wrong with guests. I go on two such sites, this and a site dedicated to a hobby I have. I am rather bemused about rules concerning courtesy, understanding, non inflammatory approach etc etc. Why? if some pillock makes an absurd statement, I am not going to try to understand it, i am going to point and laugh! This is not an agony aunt column and we are not each other's keepers.

I even said the other day, guarded and with a few "buts" but it was there. I agreed with something Akenaton put. if that isn't objective, what the hell is?

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:43 AM

What di I say??? Leave it the heck alone... Yeah, I have complained to Joe and told purdy much "Get over it" so...

...I got over it...

No one can be bullied if they don't open the threads... I mean, this joint is all volunteeer, ain't it...

(Well, Boberdz, what about those who you suspect het paid to come here and rattle the latest right winged BS???)

Hey, there's this little wheel on my mouse that allows me to skip long cut 'n paste blog crap...

So just leave it alone...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:23 AM

If somebody is being insulting and personal, all you have to do is report said person to Joe or other mud elfs and they will delete such post if they feel that it is out of order.

There is no need to respond and make the issue worse on the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:32 AM

Perhaps more deletion is the way. Heated exchanges is one thing, nasty attacks is quite another.
It won't do to bar all guests from the BS section because some of the most vocal offenders are members.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM

For what it's worth, I don't know that closing the BS section to guests would clean the place up much. There are some members who are pretty objectionable - earlier this week I received the following in a PM from a member:
Laughing my c**t out here, what the fuck could an ole c**t at your age do ? come on tell me. I have have my head in and out of that pit marked face of yours before you knew what happened. BNP ? Sorry c**t, I don't like them. I see you are on bebo and facebook, like the young ones then I take it, you should select a better picture than the one of you wearing the hat holding the doggie looks a bit dodgy, it has kiddyfiddler written all over it.
Do yourself a favour and don't cross swords with me, then again, it just might be fun to play you like a fiddle, your call you ole c**t.
The asterisks are mine, by the way. As the person in question is, shall we say, 'challenged', it's water off a duck's back, but with this sort of drivel flying into people's inboxes, the BS section looks positively peachy!

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:01 AM

What makes this board so vibrant is that we CAN talk of issues that concern us other than music. let's face it, folk music does not exist in a vacuum and issues that impinge on our lives also impinge on our music.

One of the problems with the BBC Folk and Acoustic Board was that a lot of stuff which was not directly related to music was deleted. In the end, the board was modded into oblivion - quite literally as it is now closed.

So, personally, I think that to close the BS section would make this board far less relevant and interesting - although I would save an awful lot of time out of my day!

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:09 AM

I say, don't burn the barn down to kill the rats.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:21 AM

Again, have I missed something?

This board is far better than it used to be, with regard to personal attacks.

There are those out there in Internetland who seem to think it's there for them, and them alone. If someone goes 'off thread' they go bonkers. If someone writes something they don't like, they go bonkers. If there's a poster they loathe, they press their 'complain' button until their fingers wear out.

They literally cannot bear not to have their own way.

No-one should give in to them, for if you do, then you are giving in to mini-dictators who want everything their own way, no matter what the cost.

I'm sure there are those who are very pleased the BBC board has closed down as now they can relax from having to 'guard' it all day long, just in case those posters that make them see red appeared on it. That's the kind of peysonality you're dealing with on the internet.

As for those who can't *bear* any thread to go off thread, well...do they sit and have conversations related to one sole topic alone? Or does the conversation drift down many different paths, making it far more interesting and enjoyable, before drifting back to the original topic?

Just chill out....

And of course, there are some 'guest' posters, even 'members' that none of us know who may well try to deliberately cause trouble on here, due to jealousy of the success and community of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: MikeL2
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:25 AM

hi

Like others here I enjoy the BS threads but not the stupid, inane and sometimes downright nasty comments that some members seem to think it amusing to post.

I don't want to see the BS closed out but maybe removing members that post them for a cool off period might be one way of moving forward.

I really couldn't believe the dreadful PM sent to Gervase. All the PM's I receive are very helpful and always friendly. I wouldn't send any other type of PM myself either.

I have been both owner and moderator of other forums and we were always far less patient with trouble-makers than here. And we had no problems with stifling or narrowing the comments and subjects discussed.

The moderators including max do a great job here and it would be a pity to have to take drastic action like closing down the BS Section.

Cheers

Mikel2

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:43 AM

Joe is getting cranky. He scolded me for complaining that my family was being poisoned by herbacides and insectacides and my last option was to sue the old lady who refused to change her lawn care practices.

The last social networking site I was on got rid of the BS section called soapbox and erased all the archives. They moderators wanted to keep a more commercial tone to the site.

If an archive falls in the forest and no one hears it, it doesn't really matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:43 AM

The mods do a very good job at the moment in my opinion ,but I can understand how frustrating it must be trying to stay neutral on threads that they feel strongly about . I really would not like to see any contamination of the musical threads ; the BS section seems to work well in containing the sort of flame wars that could kill off the Folk Club sort of atmosphere above the line.
Actually, if somebody really wants to they can write something about anything above the line using a song search or a song challenge as a pretext. For example somebody denied the chance to BS below deck might come up with something like,
Does anyone know any good songs about 9/11 ? I'm looking for lyrics that specifically relate to the downing of WTC 7 . And then somebody comes up with a quick not very well written Ballad of WTC 7 he/she has just made up. And then someone writes back with an analysis of the lyrics.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:45 AM

There's a very simple solution. If you don't like what's in the BS threads, don't read them.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:47 AM

If you were in Joe's shoes you too would know what its like to contend with unruley disrespectful children, some gang members, and still try to give an opportunity for them to learn.

...BUT WITHOUT the pay that a high school teacher gets...

I say lets put Joe on salary. Lets start at double minimum wage which is about a teacher's salary.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:13 AM

No amount of salary will reduce the amount of time & aggravation required to monitor things. Joe said it best.. "make nice"...have your discussions & disagreements but lay off the name calling and bad language and personal accusations. Disagree with positions, not persons.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM

thats sort of a left wing thing to say, jeez.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM

Heat /\ Kitchen

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

Dick, the problem with that is sometimes a thread looks very interesting, then suddenly someone posts a nasty personal attack which ruins it.
Let's all just grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:05 AM

There are lots and lots and lots of BS threads that silently sink into oblivion and to which I have never posted -- nor will I. For example, I don't know enough about UK or EU politics to make a useful comment so I don't bother. I'm certainly not going to get dragged into a "deep and meaningful" (emphasis on "deep") thread on US politics, either -- I may make an inane remark, but I pretty much gave up on-line political discussion for Lent, 2005.

There's enough nastiness around without me adding to it.

And there's the examples of Clinton Hammond and Martin Gibson....

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:06 AM

I love the BS section, and don't read the parts that would otherwise annoy me.
I can see that for a moderator, though, who has to read everything, that it could get real tedious, real fast.

Please keep it and let's all owe them a pint or 17. Anyone on the same continent?

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:11 AM

I haven't seen recent personal attacks, but then, when I see certain members posting on a thread I just leave. There are some volatile and toxic folks here. They diminish the quality of the conversation by chasing off others. So far only a couple of those have been actually banned, and it is a better place for their absence. Anyone remember Martin Gibson? The worst of the worst.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Closing the BS section
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:17 AM

Kendall, you're a good guy and I like you very much, but I think you kind of misinterpreted what I said. What I said (in a PM) to you was this: Kendall, it's hard to know what to do with threads like that (e.g., the Boss Hogg thread, where everybody is fighting, and it's not just isolated attacks). Both sides say horribly nasty things, so it's almost impossible to sort things out. I'm tempted to have a moratorium on nastiness for a week, and close any thread that has even a hint of a squabble. I'm getting really tired of it. Some of these people I like very much personally, and they're still squabbling. It would be much easier if the squabblers were people I hate. Everyone, please take note of this: I don't have the authority to shut down the BS section, and I wouldn't even consider doing it. Still, I AM getting sick of the nastiness, and I think a lot of us are. -Joe-

Richard Bridge says:

"I don't care who started it, now both behave or both get punished" actually vindicates calculated bullying. It removes the ability of the oppressed to strike back.

There may be some truth in that, but our policy is not to punish anyone. All we do is stop the combat, without determining who's right and who's wrong.

---

And this thread is a very good example of why we don't allow public forum discussion of Mudcat moderation. This thread is closed. If you wish to discuss this matter, contact me, Big Mick, or Max directly. Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

---

30 October 2010: In fairness to Kendall, let me note that I find that said the following at the end of the Boss Hogg thread:

Sometimes I wonder if I should just close every damn thread that develops this kind of tone.
Sometimes, I wish I could close the entire BS section, along with very "what is folk?" thread that gets more than a hundred posts long.

Wishing sometimes I could close the BS section is quite different from doing it. I don't have the authority to close the BS section, and it's not something I would even consider doing. The BS section division serves very well to separate music stuff from the chit-chat that doesn't interest me.
-Joe-