BS: Disaster for the Democrats?

Subject: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:06 AM

That depends.

It seems that the US economy is not improving very quickly at all--to say the least. I've read the Fed is predicting about 9% unemployment at the end of 2011.    And even when a worker manages to find another job, it often is a service-sector job, paying worse than his or her old job.

And it's obvious that the gridlock we have now will, if anything, be worse in the next Congress.

So it appears that the electorate may well be just about as angry in 2012 as they are now.


That being the case, the stage could be set for President Obama to do a Truman 1948--but only if the new Congress is solidly Republican.    So, ironically, it may well be that his best chance for re-election is that the Republicans take both the House and Senate in 2010.

It's a foregone conclusion that nothing will be done by the next Congress--it will be hyper-partisan and rather evenly split.    So if it is officially a Republican Congress (Republican majorities in both Houses), Obama can run against a classic "do-nothing Congress"--thus, finally, getting on the right side of an electorate which otherwise is likely to be howling for his head, and those of other Democrats.

Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:35 AM

You may very well have something there, Ron. I'll have to think about this (after a good night's sleep).

Barbara's and my ballots are in the mail.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 02:07 AM

Ron Davies: "Comments?"


Yeah, but I'm not into arguing. I just posted a piece under the 'WOW--CBS thread. It may have some bearing....I just don't want to type a lot now..but, it would be in that direction...

Hi, Don...

Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Bobert at the library...
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 03:56 PM

No, disaster for 95% of Americans...

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: gnu
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:06 PM

Here's a "comment"... what is wrong with the people of the US? They have a chance to give the administration a CHANCE to GOVERN and get shit done. If they vote Rep they shoot themselves in the foot... over and over again for at least two more years.

United they stand, divided they continue to screw themselves and the world. The rich must be laughing all the way to the bank. It's sad... truly sad. Checks and balances? More like cheques and big balances for the bank accounts of the rich.

"How can they sleep while the rest of us cry... " Pink.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Bobert at the libarary...
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Bobert at the Library...
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:09 PM

We'll, gn'ze...

If you read my comments on the "Unpopular..." thread it exapalins it all...

But the short version: Americans are morons...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

I prefer to wait to see how the elections turn out this year before trying to analyze how those results will affect the 2010 elections.

Polls are still open, folks. Let's not - any of us - throw in the towel.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

I have to agree with Bobert-

Just look at the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:21 PM

The towel was so dirty I threw it out, not in.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:40 PM

Americans are not morons....any more than the Brits are morons.

The ordinary folk are just sick of politicians, at last folk are beginning to see what is really happening...and they dont like it.

Unlike the majority on Mudcat, most people in the real world dont have strong political affiliations, they dont see politics in terms of "my team".

The popular movement you see in America is a move away from political spin and hypocrisy....even if this is a move to the right in the short term, it must be good for the country to break the political stranglehold applied by corporatism.

Maybe the powerful are going to have to start listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

"The ordinary folk are just sick of politicians, ..."

Maybe so, but I don't know what they think they will get by voting in a NEW batch! There are too many distractions for a certain % of them to bother thinking, so they just watch Fox News and 'react' to the "political spin and hypocrisy" you mention.

If they are unemployed and see friends dieing in a war, they can't be bothered to STUDY which party offers the best plans...they just quit voting or vote for 'someone new' and hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:12 PM

They dont need to study to know the "best plan".....the only plan!

To get the fuck out, before they cause any more damage.

Todays Times tells of a wave of bombings across Iraq, infrastructure in ruins, Govt corruption rife, Women set back 20 years, Sunni/Shia violence boiling up nicely, fueled by lack of Sunni representation.

Need I go on?

Sarahs people dont want to lose their sons and daughters for nothing

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: josepp
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:23 PM

I want the republicans to win. I want the spotlight put on them. I'm tired of hearing sniping from the sidelines but offering nothing better (because there isn't anything better to offer). So, fine, let's throw them in the ring and tell them, "Don't tell us, show us." In 2 years, they'll be voting the dems back in because the republicans and the tea party have no answers whatsoever and certainly no sane candidates. They'll be forced to work with Obama instead of whining about everything he does or doesn't do. And they had BETTER work with him--WITH him. Or there will be hell to pay in '12.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:27 PM

Blue shirt , red eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:33 PM

Well said, Ron.

With no disrespect to my US neighbours to the south, I am fed up with American politics and American politicians--pretty much as I am with Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:36 PM

The Democrats are going to lose BIG tonight and they have no one to blame but their own members of congress and our president.

The U.S. is a center right country and attempts to make it anything else spells disaster for the Party that tries.

There will be lots of Democrats' vacant houses in the D.C. area come January 1, 2011, and I feel very good about it. It won't hurt the housing industry there, of course, because the vacancies will be filled by Republicans.

Hopefully, four of the vacancies will be owned or rented by our four Arizona Democrat Congress members. All four voted for the key Bills Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi rammed through congress and which were opposed by the majority of American voters.

What was it Obama said about elections? Oh yes, "elections have consequencies."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:38 PM

I expect you`ll awake tomorrow and find that--GASP--the sky has fallen, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: pdq
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:43 PM

The Democrats took over Congress as a result of the 2006 election, not the 2008 one that gave us Obama.

The Republicans have had nothing to say about the legislatve agenda or the Federal spending in four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:43 PM

"The U.S. is a center right country and attempts to make it anything else spells disaster for the Party that tries.

...even if they try to make it a FAR right country? Seems like that is what they intend.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: josepp
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:51 PM

Either way, America has the politics it deserves, so who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:00 PM

deserves? What a strange attitude...why should any country 'deserve' a poor system?

...oh..and *I* care.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: pdq
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:08 PM

I agree with Bill D on that point.

The US people deserve the best because we are the hardest working and the most productive people on Planet Earth.

Our Federal Congress is a corrupt joke and all members deserve to be punished (to some extent), not the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:17 PM

I am a register independent, I fully believe in this experiment called democracy and I do trust it. I may or may not like the results all the time but something good always comes out of it and I have to believe that as I do believe in America ..

I let the people decide and I live with it. My guys are getting clobbered but if the people have spoken - I go with it. At least if nothing more, there maybe some more debate and discussion on serious issues (I can only hope). I never liked it when 1 side controls all no matter if that side is the people I generally support. So I look at it that way and hope good comes out of balance.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:24 PM

Bill you are defining these people not on their politics, but on moral issues, homosexual marriage, abortion, etc.
We all, left and right, agree that too much govt is bad, benefit dependency is bad, nationalised healthcare is only as good as the people who use it or abuse it. Our NHS started as the best thing any British govt had ever done, it has now become a financial "black hole" abused by consultants, drug companies, G.P.s...even patients.

We poorer people on PAYE are being robbed by direct and indirect taxation, while the really rich practice tax avoidance.

People are beginning to notice.....the penny is dropping.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:45 PM

>>>Sarahs people dont want to lose their sons and daughters for nothing <<<

It is hard to imagine a more ignorant statement about US politics. A large part of "Sarahs" initial appeal was that her son volunteered to fight and that she proudly sent him.

To suggest that the Republicans or Tea Party is anti-war is very naive.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:58 PM

I do hate to see a stalemate in Congress for another two years. I see no reason that a majority Republican House would be more inclined to cooperate with Democrats than they have the last two years.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 08:03 PM

"Bill you are defining these people not on their politics..."

'These' people? Which people? I haven't defined anyone. But it seems to me that people's politics are barely distinguishable from their 'moral issues' these days. In the USA, money has pushed moral issues into a central place because those WITH money consider playing to the 'religious right' important to their cause. If they get richer and control power, they care little whether religion imposes itself on the populace in general.

I 'react' to people, as much as I can, according to their behavior and their reasoning...or lack thereof.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: josepp
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:08 PM

////deserves? What a strange attitude...why should any country 'deserve' a poor system?////

Because they WANT a poor system or they would change it. If I don't pity what's happening to the Afghans and, in fact, believe they are to blame for their own predicament, I sure as hell ain't wasting feeling sorry for Americans. This is the system you want or you'd change it.

It's television programming or celebrities or sports stars--we have the ones we deserve.

And if you don't feel we deserve it, too bad, you're gonna have to live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:14 PM

Decent health care for ALL of those who are in need of it IS a moral issue.

Some folks seem to be under the impression that "moral issues" encompass only sexual behavior and/or matters of religious belief. It's a helluva lot bigger than that. Philosophy 101.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:27 PM

"Because they WANT a poor system or they would change it/"

Nonsense! They don't change it because they don't realize it IS poor. They are hammered with slogans by special interests who sell the idea that 'this' or 'that' little side issue IS the best for them...despite all the negative repercussions. It is "divide & conquer" taken to extremes. Promise them unlimited guns...or no abortions...or fences against immigrants... or evolution deleted from textbooks....etc., and they'll forget their air is polluted and they have lousy health care!


Dr. Pangloss would have a field day in this atmosphere.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: josepp
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 09:32 PM

////I see no reason that a majority Republican House would be more inclined to cooperate with Democrats than they have the last two years.////

Exactly. In two years, the republicans and tea party will have nothing to show for themselves except gridlock. People will still be unemployed, houses will still be getting foreclosed, the debt will keep growing. All of this happened on the republican watch so why believe they can or will stop it? By '12, the public will be ready to vote the bums out again. Then the dems will get back in and then be thrown right back out. It's actually pretty funny.

We're always crying about the debt but will kill any politician who dared to say we have to raise taxes across the board to get it under control. We always want them to fix it fix it fix it!!! But as soon as we're called upon to make the necessary sacrifice we get furious. WHAT ABOUT THE RICH???? Well Obama's raising their taxes and you're ready to vote him out--so what about the rich? Fix the system but don't take anything away from me. In fact, I want more. More more more more more! So all Congress can do is nothing. And then we get mad at them for doing nothing and vote them out. That's why I hope the GOP and tea party win big. Let's see them squirm for a change. 10 to 1 they'll start yacking about gay marriage and abortion to cover up their ineffectiveness. We'll see how far that goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 10:39 PM

A Record To Be Proud Of
(Progressive.org)

Regardless of what happens in the voting booths today, the 111th Congress will be coming to an end. According to polls, many people -- in fact, most Democrats -- may be happy to see it go: a recent Pew and National Journal survey shows that only one-third of Democrats think this Congress achieved more than recent congresses, while 60 percent think it has achieved the same or less. Unfortunately, this perception is divorced from reality.

The 111th Congress has been easily one of the most productive congresses in American history, having passed major reforms of health care, the financial sector, and the student loan industry, while also pumping a massive stimulus bill into the economy that helped save or create millions of jobs. The New York Times described this Congress as one whose accomplishments rival "any other since the New Deal in scope or ambition."

A FOCUS ON ECONOMY: When Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA)   gaveled in the 111th Congress in January 2009, the country faced severe problems, none more pressing than a cratering economy. The unemployment rate had skyrocketed since 2007 with no signs of relenting, and the private sector needed a jump start. In its first month, the 111th Congress passed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, which President Obama quickly signed into law. The non-partisan CBO found that the bill created 3.7 million jobs, and GDP and manufacturing have both grown steadily over the past year. The bill also included significant tax cuts. The Tax Policy Center found that the tax cuts contained in the stimulus bill saved an average of $1,179 for 96.9 percent of U.S. households in 2009. Congress later passed, and Obama signed, the Small Business Jobs Act of 2010 , which cut taxes by $12 billion for small businesses and leveraged $300 billion in private sector lending for small businesses. Congress also passed -- and Obama signed -- a $26 billion   jobs bill to save over 300,000 teachers, police, and other public workers from layoffs. Congress provided additional stimulus for the economy with the   Hire Act, which created up to 300,000 jobs by starting a payroll tax holiday and other tax credits for businesses that hire unemployed workers, and with an extension to unemployment benefits for those still unable to find work in a tough economy. Aside from these major steps to jump-start the economy, the 111th Congress also reformed several dysfunctional institutions. The   Affordable Care Act transformed the country's health care system, by reforming health insurers' discriminatory practices, expanding Medicaid coverage, and income-based help for health care, and creating health insurance exchanges where consumers can shop for high-value coverage. The Wall Street reform bill ended taxpayer-funded bailouts of large financial institutions, created numerous regulations to prevent irresponsible behavior by such institutions, and created the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection to serve as a Wall Street watchdog. The 111th Congress also reformed the student loan industry by passing a bill that marked the largest investment in college aid in history: it increased Pell Grants, strengthened community colleges, and ended wasteful subsidies to private lenders. The bill is expected to pump $100 billion into the economy thanks to the increased earnings of new students who can take advantage of the reforms. Congress also passed the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, which restored basic protections against pay discrimination towards women.

THE LITTLE THINGS MATTER: While these issues -- the stimulus measures, and reforms of the health insurance, financial, and student loan industries -- received much national attention, there were myriad other small acts that went largely unnoticed but figure to create significant improvements for many Americans. For example, the Credit Cardholders' Bill of Rights created significant protections against deception and abuse by credit card companies. The Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act tripled volunteerism opportunities and increased college financial awards. The Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act guaranteed access to medications and care for low-income patients with AIDS and HIV. The U.S. Manufacturing Enhancement Act lowered or eliminated duties on some materials that are not made domestically, so that American manufacturers can compete with foreign manufacturers. For Americans that fly commercial airlines, the Airline Passenger Bill of Rights Act provides improved passenger safety via stronger training requirements for commercial pilots. Congress also passed a bill authorizing the FDA to regulate the advertising, marketing, and manufacturing of tobacco products, which are the leading cause of preventable U.S. deaths.

STILL WORK TO BE DONE: While these measures are no doubt significant, the 111th Congress is leaving a lot of runners on base, with further work to be done on issues such as climate change and immigration reform. The House passed the American Clean Energy and Security Act, also known as the cap-and-trade bill, which would have provided a marketplace in which to regulate dangerous carbon emissions while creating 1.7 million jobs and helping free America from dependence on foreign oil. The Senate has not acted on that bill. The House also passed bills that would have eliminated a liability cap on the damages BP faces for the 2010 oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, and that would have given the BP Oil Spill Commission subpoena power to investigate what went wrong. There is still a bill to   create a public option for health insurance on the table, for which Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has promised a vote. Also, the Senate and the House have yet to take action to pass the DREAM Act or comprehensive immigration reform, a promise Obama ran on in 2008. The House also passed the Disclose Act, which would prohibit foreign entities and government contractors from influencing American elections, while establishing extensive disclosure rules for political contributions. Two bills in the House, the Jobs for Main Street Act and the Small Business & Infrastructure Jobs Act, would create significant investment in American infrastructure through redirection of TARP funds and by increasing bonds and tax breaks for infrastructure development. All of these issues await action by the 112th Congress, which has large legislative shoes to fill, despite what the polls say.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 10:44 PM

Well, it's the Dems own damn fault for wallowing in their complacency, letting a minority party run rough shod over them, so nothing would get done....also it is their fault for thinking the tea party movement would split the republican party, when it was obvious nothing of the sort would occur. Now, we have to pay for their laziness, and their cowardice. Good job, democratic party, and thank you for fucking us over.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:19 PM

You think you were fucked over in the last 2 years? Wait until the Republicans take over again. Say goodbye to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, VA hospitals, sub-rich kids going to college, decent roads, schools, public amenities (libraries, parks, etc). Say goodbye to effective government oversight on industry including the food industry. Say hello to widespread pollution, unlimited open-pit mining and offshore drilling, E. coli cases in the thousands. Say goodbye to living wage jobs, 40-hour work week, overtime, unemployment insurance, OSHA regulations. Say hello to the next great depression as an unregulated Wall Street once again plays "heads I win tails you lose" games with our money and once again their fake money collapses -- with no stimulus bill to pick up the pieces. Say hello to the new robber barons, child labor, massive unemployment, huge "Palinvilles" of jobless, homeless people sleeping out of doors (and dying of hunger because the government agencies that might feed them are gone).

What? This is overreacting, you say? These are (just some of) the things that government does for us, and the Republicans have said, with their mouths, that [i]government is the problem and not the solution[/i] and have shown with their votes that they are doing everything in their power to dismantle government.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:31 PM

Some leader they've got in the Senate: Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell told the National Journal, "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."

Now, there's something to be real proud of and I'll bet that's definitely why the sons a'bitches voted them in, too, just to get that upstart outta there!

Oh ye gawds and gawdesses!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: josepp
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:35 PM

////Nonsense! They don't change it because they don't realize it IS poor. They are hammered with slogans by special interests who sell the idea that 'this' or 'that' little side issue IS the best for them...despite all the negative repercussions. It is "divide & conquer" taken to extremes. Promise them unlimited guns...or no abortions...or fences against immigrants... or evolution deleted from textbooks....etc., and they'll forget their air is polluted and they have lousy health care!////

And I'm supposed to feel sorry for slugs this idiotic??? I beg to differ, me boy. People this stupid should be put up against a wall and shot. If that's America's electorate then this country is doomed and done for and high time too.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:38 PM

Actually katmyluv, "upstart" is not what they mean to say........"Uppiity" something perhaps but I doubt upstart..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:51 PM

Yeah, I know, Spawdarlin'...but I just couldn't bring myself to even type that..racism is so alive, isn't it? The bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 11:52 PM

Very good, mousie. How long before it sinks in?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:34 AM

Hmmm...interesting....

I find it curious, that DEMOCRATS are so anti-DEMOCRACY. It's what the people voted for...somethings went the way I hoped, and some didn't. That is true for virtually all elections..but we live with it. So suck it up, and get over it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:42 AM

"Disaster" is cyclical in American politics. Don't let it ruin your day. We've seen it all before and we'll see it again....and again...and again. The great game just keeps rolling on, and it gets nastier with each succeeding decade.

The Democrats and Republicans play "good cop---bad cop" with the American public. The public is the one under the bright lights, and the cops are totally in control. The Democrats are the "good cop". They treat you nice, and say nice things, and that gives you hope (unless you hate them). The Republicans are the "bad cop". They get tough with you and shake you down. If you are the type of American who loves the tough cop....think people who love John Wayne, Rambo, Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, and all those other Hollywood tough guys who shoot first and talk later...well, you'll LOVE the Republicans and their "get tough" attitude...because you'll figure they're going to get tough with someone ELSE, not you! ;-) Yeah, with all those "evil" forces out there that haunt your anxiety closet.

That's how America is divided and conquered. People instinctively back either the "good cop" (Mom) or the "bad cop" (Dad), according to which one they instinctively run to whenever they figure they need help. Some run to Mom, some run to Dad. Mom is nurturing, Dad gets tough!

The rich bastards at the top of the system know how people do that, and that's why they use those two parties to keep you all mesmerized and fighting with each other. Meanwhile, they run it all, run BOTH of those parties, bank the profits, and rob you blind.

Who do I like when faced with the choice between "good cop" and "bad cop"? Hell, the same as most of you...I like the "good cop" better...the Democrats.

But I am not fooled into imagining that they don't work for the same corporate/banking oligarchy that controls the "bad cop". The oligarchy is your real government, not the bozos you vote into or out of office.

The "good cop" is experiencing some disaster right now. The "bad cop" experienced disaster in 2008. Like I said, it's cyclical. And it will contiune to be cyclical. So if you are a Democrat and want some good news...just wait and see. The cycle will definitely swing your way again in awhile. It always does. It has to.

Every victory is temporary. So is every defeat. And "this too shall pass"...

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:12 AM

It sure is fascinating though.    And there are even some outcomes to cheer tonight.

#1 to cheer on my list is that it seems Meg Whitman spent $140 million of her own money to win the governorship of California.

And lost.

Somehow, that is very satisfying.

(Admittedly there might be better uses for the $140 million--world hunger, for instance.)

But it's still nice to know that sometimes no matter how much money you have to spend , you may not win.




Then there are some truly weird results--such as Manchin's win in WV---in which he ran as far away from President Obama as possible--even going so far as to stage an ad in which he literally shot a bill to ribbons--was it cap and trade?

And in WV, it seems his approach worked.

I suppose it pays to know your target (so to speak) audience.

And of course, I know the President and other Democrats gave him their blessing.

As my father used to say," We pay off on results."    Result was keeping Byrd's seat.






The other thing I was thinking about is issues the President should push in the next 2 years.   Seems to me a comprehensive immigration solution--with a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants should be close to the top of the list.

It's the right thing to do

But also, political benefits:

1)   Cementing the Hispanic vote-- (aside from Florida, for which he should seek to push travel to Cuba)--in the Democratic column. As the fastest growing ethnic group, this is necessary---and it will put the Republicans squarely on the wrong side of demographics.

2) In fact it will also likely split the Republicans--since the business community is actually on the side of a comprehensive immigration solution.   So it's likely to cause a Republican civil war--with the Tea Party wing on the other side of the issue. Could be some very entertaining fireworks.




What the Democrats should do now is make it clear that there will be no other person even considered as presidential nominee than President Obama.   Let all the bloody and expensive primaries be on the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:22 AM

akenaton, I think it's both presumptuous and incorrect to assume that most American Mudcatters view politics as a "my team v. their team" thing.

I think most of us - the ones who usually post in the political threads - have principles and goals we believe in.   Not that many decades ago in US politics, it was not uncommon to find people in both major parties who shared many common goals and policies, but the Republican Party has moved further and further to the "right-wing" end of the spectrum, and in the last few years (especially since the election of Obama), their stated strategy (at least in Congress) has been to block whatever legislation the Democrats propose -- even if many of them have supported such legislation when they were in power -- so that they can run against the Democrats by pointing to their lack of accomplishments.    That party has become much more unified and regimented in their voting.   The Republicans that many of us liberals/progressives may have supported in the past have been drummed out of that party.

This does not mean we support Democrats just because they are Democrats. In fact, many of us are highly critical of that party and, especially, of some of its members in Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:49 AM

What Genie said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:53 AM

"this perception is divorced from reality. "

Amos. Why are you continuously spouting that the majority of the people are not in touch with reality?

Wake up man. You're like a bug running from rock to rock trying to find something secure to cling to. Somewhere to hide from the mean old world.

You spend hours every day picking through the shit coming from congress and the administration to find a few undigested kernels of corn so you can talk about how great they are.

You must have lost your sense of smell.

Wake up man. You're like a bug running from rock to rock trying to find something secure to cling to. Somewhere to hide from the mean old world.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:19 AM

Ron Davies: "And it's obvious that the gridlock we have now will, if anything, be worse in the next Congress."

Not particularly. It depends on IF the 'representatives' finally decide to LISTEN to the American public, and work WITH each other.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:23 AM

What Mousethief said.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:02 AM

Does no one recognise the importance of an apolitical grass roots movement?

If you were real progressives you would be supporting such a movement regardless of which direction it was taking in the short term.

As LH says we are defeated by division and like it or not, America is a centre right nation...as is the UK.
Now, the important thing is to start dismantling the corporacy and its attack dogs. This can only be effected from the centre right.....after that its up to progressives to change hearts and minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:09 AM

Looks like the same situation we have in 1994....and then the Newt Gingrich House made fools of themselves, but somehow they kept control of the House until 2006.
Let's hope that doesn't happen again.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:44 AM

It is clear from this side of the pond that Americans are not fit to govern themselves. We should take it back

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:24 AM

"apolitical grass roots movement"?

Apolitical my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:29 AM

For what it is worth , here is a view from an Independent that many like me share. My concern with the Republican party as of late is this. In the past, I could find Democrats that were conservative, I could find Republicans that were Liberal .. In short I could find a diverse group of folks that were elected to do one thing and that was represent the people. What disturbs me IMO is that I can still see moderate or conservative Democrats, and those people can get elected. However it is less likely that I will find a moderate republican. If one is not on the outer edge, they have no chance to run. This disturbs me as I have respect for both parties. I would like to see the Republican party back to where it once was many years ago.

Likewise, if either party doesn't work together, they will be out. I do not think the Independents looked at this election as an embrace of the republican party, but more of we will force a change but you need to get your act together. I think that is true .. if either side does what it has been doing, party politics, the Independent vote (the ones that will put you in or out of office) will easily swing either way.   My take for what it is worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:45 AM

I voted against a democrat. I felt that the independent was better qualified to be governor, but, the non thinkers supported the republican, a bad tempered liar and he won with 1% of the vote. He is the type who will think he has a mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:16 AM

Kendall,

He does have a mandate. He won. And he won because you (and people like you) didn't vote for the Democrat.

Did you all learn nothing from the UK elections?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:45 AM

I think the biggest mistake a person can do is not vote for the person they think can lead because it may put the "other guy" in office. That is a mistake and goes against everything freedom is suppose to be. I would never do that, I would not recommend anyone doing that. Let the chips fall as they may but one needs to vote their heart and their conscience or the whole thing doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:07 AM

1994....and then the Newt Gingrich House made fools of themselves

As if the Repubs in the House haven't been making fools of themselves for the last two years, Joe?

Some hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:31 AM

It likes as if the Republicans have recaptured both houses of the Maine Legislature, something which hasn't happened since the early 1960's when they owned the State.

The Governor-elect is a Republican conservative as well but with a narrow enough victory that there will be an automatic recount; the second place finisher is an independent candidate while the Democratic contender finished with 19% of the vote.

Democratic incumbants retained both Congressional seats which is about the only bright spot on an otherwise dreary looking morning.

Time to go out and collect the rest of the yard signs!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:33 AM

They are still counting Kendall. Be patient. I don't think Cutler has conceded.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:58 AM

" work WITH each other".    Fine.   Now, with hyperpartisans, especially the Tea Party, joining Congress, and pledging to work with the other side--as long as the other side agrees to do what they want, i.e. to roll back "Obamacare" and otherwise backtrack-- how likely to do think your pious exhortation is to become reality?

I did in fact give at least one area--immigration-- where I think the Democrats can peel off enough Republicans to make progress.    And they need to try hard--if only to prove to Hispanics that they deserve big support in 2012.

Aside from that, it seems--especially with the split so much more even--- that all an objective observer can foresee is even more endless wrangling than we've had already.

Maybe the US Congress is actually a Mudcat thread on religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:04 AM

Ron
That is a danger - you are right for concern, Now one of the biggest challenges for the Republican leaders I think is how to get the extreme edges in line as to accomplish something (anything) that we will see. Maybe now the fear in both parties is people are going to boot you if you play the politics game. I sure hope that is the message. I don't think anyone but the naive would think this is a republican mandate. One only has to look at the independent vote to see that. Like I said my personal choices got clobbered but I have to think that maybe the change will provide something useful. I keep my fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:31 AM

"The Republicans have had nothing to say about the legislatve agenda or the Federal spending in four years."

Oh Bullshit. They have been given every opportunity to participate. They have specificaly **chosen** to stonewall and obstruct. Dont' believe me, listen to what McConnel and DeMint and Pence and Boehner have said! They actually admit this.
You can't claim that their lack of participation is anything else...unless of course you are a puppet of the Kochs and China whose brain is full of the jello Fox put there.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:40 AM

"Maybe the US Congress is actually a Mudcat thread on religion."

LOL!!! It IS, Ron, it IS! The entire USA 2-party system is a Mudcat thread on religion, guaranteed to produce division, scorn, hatred, despise, misunderstanding, and yet more irreconcilable division...because that's exactly what it is designed to do.

There is simply no possibility that the supporters of Democrats and the supporters of Republicans will ever unite in common cause...EXCEPT....and this is a big except....when there is a spectacularly violent attack of some kind on America that is perceived to have come from a foreign source. 911, for example. A Reichstag fire. The sinking of the Maine. The torpedoing of the Lusitania. Pearl Harbour. The fictional Gulf of Tonkin attack. Something along that line.

That type of evnet does briefly unite almost your entire public, Democrats and Republicans alike, in a frenzy of fear and rage, and they send off their young people to slaughter some foreigners on some distant piece of real estate. It works for awhile. But the complex reasons behind the event are always hidden and never really understood by the vast majority of the public that reacts to the event. It's a gambit that your ruling corporate/defense Oligarchy will resort to or take advantage of when all else fails.

Watch out for it. If it happens again, it will not be good at all, and you won't want to be standing anywhere near to where it happens.

In the meantime...YES...the American political scene and the American Congress are like a Mudcat thread on religion. Two irreconcilable points of view, and never the twain shall meet...and the anger and chauvinism generated by that divide will keep you all fighting each other forever instead of bringing down the corporate plutocrats who really rule your nation by the power of their money and by America's gigantic national debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:51 AM

How Obama Saved Capitalism and Lost the Midterms.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:05 AM

"The entire USA 2-party system is a Mudcat thread on religion,"

People on Mudcat usually hold pretty entrenched positions on this. To an outsider, it seems that the opinion of much of the US electorate blows back and forth in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:12 AM

Amos: that is an interesting item. Waiting for the more erudite family members to read it and see what they think. After two days of travel - from Montreal to Whidbey Island (near Seattle) - I am still not thinking clearly!

Re the election, Animaterra posted on FB:‎"...if I had a thing to give you, I would tell you one more time that the world is always turning toward the morning..."

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:16 AM

Indeed Obama saved Capitalism but that was not the bridge too far.
IT was not going for medicare for all, and even if it would not pass everyone would feel they understood what it was and could dream and work harder to achieve it.

Despite passing the law to insure equal pay for women, and other liberal agenda laws unpopoular with corporations, enough mama grizzlies narrowed the gap getting closer to the majority of women who are democrats.


There is no disaster or earthquake or tidal wave...there is the opposite. There will be a stagnant gridlock that will ensue as Congressman Issa will appoint 76 new investigators to establish blame soley on the white house and various goverment employees tha will make the lawsuits which plagued Clinton look like a parking ticket.

On the heels of ACORN's destruction, Issa will target unions and community groups that will face the stings and arrows of outrageous misfortune with false accusations and "corrupt liberal bastard" witch hunts.

So as the people will suffer the delays of investigations, it will allow banks to continue their forclosure feeding frenzy, the repeal of basic Obama Wall St. reforms and health care and will only go to will prove that the Republicans are only starting their 2012 presidential campaign, as all of American's basic corporate corruption problems will continue unabbated.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:17 AM

Jeez.....In a DEMOCRACY the people spoke. By the sounds of it, that pisses a lot of you off. What did you expect?..another failed edict from 'On High'?

Whether any of us like it or not, and there is room for apprehension, the people voted. Had the Democrats LISTENED to the American people when they were ramming their agendas through, this might not have happened...but...

......What goes around, comes around!

Fair enough?

Too bad both polarized parties don't give a shit!..The illusion they are selling you, is that they do. Get over it!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:23 AM

Say what you like about Bush and sarah Paling and all the rest of them...at least they're not black.

Isn't that really what its all about? there was no way Obama was going sort out the shish kebab Bush had made of his country in two years.

centre right...my arse! given the social history of the USA, there must be millions of Americans to whom a black President is unacceptable.

I can't really imagine a black politician getting even as far as Obabma did in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM

BTW I am not a Democrat or Republican, I am for any person party or movement that understand this ONE BASIC TRUTH>>>
ONE BASIC TRUTH

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:38 AM

In a DEMOCRACY the people spoke. By the sounds of it, that pisses a lot of you off.

No, in a DEMOCRACY the INFORMED ELECTORATE is supposed to speak. This time around, the contest was decided by uninformed ignoramuses on the basis of Republican TeaBagger lies and an Amazon-sized river of bullshit and fear.

I think you'll find that THAT is what pisses a lot of us off.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:41 AM

Donuel: "BTW I am not a Democrat or Republican, I am for any person party or movement that understand this ONE BASIC TRUTH>>>"....(and then the link.

We cross threaded, and I AGREE!!!!
As I just posted:

GfS; "Too bad both polarized parties don't give a shit!..The illusion they are selling you, is that they do. Get over it!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:41 AM

Greg how did you become such a reasoning human being?
Was it a mentor, higher education or an innate thirst for wisdom?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:42 AM

"The rich bastards at the top of the system"

No LH, it is the talking heads you see on TV and the book writers and the talk radio shows that profit from the divisions the most.

The rich bastards profit either way.

Why do people have to have something to blame everything on? Does it excuse them from having to admit to being part of the problem?

I feel like I am on the sidelines watching a big ass rumble between two foolish gangs or tribes.

I voted for the person, not the tribe they belonged to. I based it on their stance on different issues. I voted for Democrats and Republicans. I didn't let partisan politics [tribal warfare] blind me.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:45 AM

Just dumb luck, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:56 AM

I am, as you'd expect, disappointed that there was such a swing to the right. I understand 'why' in some ways, and I don't understand in others..(and don't give me wild generalizations purporting to 'explain' some of the stranger results...pundits whose business it is are still puzzling over many results).

What I am fascinated and encouraged by is that a number of the most extreme Tea-Party/Republicans did NOT win, and Alaska may still avoid one of the worst. Meg Whitman's money didn't buy her a win, and may have even worked against her. Christene O'Donnell was soundly rejected...Sharron Angle failed to knock off Harry Reid, even though many in Nevada were disappointed in Reid. That tells you that many simply saw what a disaster Angle would have been.

There were still many wins by right-wingers that will make this next Congress awkward....mostly for the Republican leadership that has to cope with their mouths for at least 2 years.

All *I* can do is what I did yesterday...vote and read and try to make sense of it all....and occasionally say so here on Mudcat... ☺.

This election, even as it disappoints me, shows that we CAN change things, and that is a good thing. We shall see which way the wind is blowing in 2 years, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:56 AM

INFORMED ELECTORATE??????

Informed by who?? The people Carlin was referring to in the link??
You obviously succumb too easily to flattery.....You should apply to be in Obama's cabinet!

I think what you meant was FOOLED AGAIN ELECTORATE!

And Donuel, you just contradicted yourself again...Is this some sort of 'musical surprise' through counterpoint??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:01 PM

>>Likewise, if either party doesn't work together, they will be out. I do not think the Independents looked at this election as an embrace of the republican party, but more of we will force a change but you need to get your act together.<<<

If your test is the lack of willingness to work togther, you are the one who has failed. As others have said, all you had to do is pay attention the Republicans announced strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:09 PM

Well, GfS...we could go back to elections of 100...or 200 years ago, when poll taxes and literacy tests and laws denying the vote to women were providing a slightly MORE "informed electorate".

In the meantime, we need to find ways to cut down on the amount of blatant lying used to FOOL the electorate. Impossible, you say? Perhaps...but a goal....

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

Yeah, Bill, but instead of LISTENING to reason, one side or the other, they'll just argue...looking to cater to the common denominator of the lowest intelligence!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:16 PM

If there were no parties period, we would be in a much better situation I think. Many states allow anyone to vote in a primary (not just a party member) I think if everyone was an Independent things would be better or at least have a chance at being better. I also think the big dollars made quite a bit of impact. The spending was obscene and it will get worse. The Supreme Court ruling did not do the country any favors. But as I said - along with power and being elected comes with it great expectations. We will see if they hold the job or not or simply have it continue to be a bitch session in congress and nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:19 PM

Yup. A Fooled Again electorate. The electorate is fooled every time. They were fooled when Reagan was elected. They were fooled when Bush I was elected. They were fooled when Clinton was elected. They were fooled when Bush II was elected(?). They were fooled when Bush II was elected(?) again. They were fooled when Obama was elected. They were fooled at this midterm election. They will continue being fooled by the great Duopoly as it serves the corporate/banking Oligarchy that funds it and plays the people off against each other through divisive media Hoo-Hah, war propaganda, race baiting, gender baiting, trivial sex and crime stories, sensationalism and "news" that is nothing more than a mixture of superficial entertainment and bizarre propaganda...because a few people at the top of the Oligarchy own the mass media, and the purpose of the mass media is to manufacture public opinion and keep the public divided, misinformed, angry, ignorant, afraid, drugged, and distracted.

Donuel, your George Carlin clip is right on the mark. Americans actually live in Orwell's 1984...but it's quite different from the way Orwell envisioned it in his book. He did not realize how ruthlessly effective a privately owned corporate marketing and banking system can be when placed in the hands of utterly unscrupulous people. He thought something like Stalinism would be the ultimate threat. He was wrong about that. Dour, austere Stalinism is simply not nearly as good at seducing people as a clever corporate marketing system is...because a corporate marketing system appeals directly to their weaknesses and their appetites and gives them the impression that they have a choice. Thus the monkeys don't even see the bars of the cage that is placed around them. They cooperate in their own enslavement. They become their own jailers.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:22 PM

If you feel you are on the sidelines you are too close to see the real game. You have to step far enough back to see the owners.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:23 PM

Trends:

Access to the "best health care system in the world" will become more and more difficult. As more companies cut or eliminate health care for their employees(as mine has), NOT offering health insurance will become more and more the norm. When the average angry white voter has lost his health insurance, and can find no other without taking out a second mortgage, the clamor for a national health insurance program will become a mandate which even propaganda can't overcome.

Things in the marketplace ARE improving. Republicans and Tea Partyists choose to ignore the growing recovery, just as many liberals chose to ignore the success of the Surge in Iraq.Truth is, had Obama not injected massive cash into the system, and had the banks been allowed to fail, the average ignorant voter would have had a hell of a lot more to be pissed about. The truth is, at Obama's election, we were tiptoe on the brink of complete economic collapse. Two years later, we have the luxury of criticizing his approach as wasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:24 PM

"... they'll just argue..."

Yep..a lot of them will. We are coping with personalities as well as sense and reason. Gotta start somewhere, though.

Dan, I too favor some better way of conducting primaries and finding decent candidates. Reducing the effect of big spending is a major part of it. There are SO many reasonably competent ones who would never even try because of the time and expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:29 PM

The best health care system in the world is presently in France, LEJ and the USA stands in about 37th place worldwide. ;-) But I would assume you know that. You did, after all, place quotation marks around the phrase "best health care system in the world" (Ha! Ha!).

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:32 PM

Actually, the best health care SYSTEM in found in Taiwan.
And Donuel, will you make up at least one of your minds???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:41 PM

Taiwan may be the best now. It was very near the top in the article I consulted recently. Those named at the top end, as I recall, were France, Austria, Italy, Spain, Japan, Saudi Arabia, and Taiwan.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:47 PM

You guys are not paying attention. Everything in this country is either the best or the greatest.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 12:55 PM

right. Just ask the new Speaker of the House. He used the phrase "best healthcare system in the world" during his address this morning. So, if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

Sure it is, best for the fat cats.

I don't know how it is in the UK, but in this country, 1% is NOT a mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:12 PM

Little Hawk, Yo-ho..I read your post in another thread, and you said you still wrote protest songs....Shit, I should pay you a visit...we'd kick ass!

Hey fellas, remember when Dylan wrote, Now read it carefully....

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who that it's namin'
For the loser now will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside and it is ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows and rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'
-Dylan



I guess none of you got it!!
Oh..I forgot, YOU ARE 'Mr. Jones'

"Something is happening
But you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?"
-Dylan


And you thought he was talking about someone else???


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

Another "Contract ON America?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:43 PM

Sawz:

If you are interested in discussing issues, stick to them instead of the sarcastic chartacterizations, and I'll do likewise. 'Kay? I think th eissues are important, and I do not enjoy slanging matches, even though I get drawn into them too easily.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:53 PM

Right on, GfS. You'd love some of my protest songs, and I'd sure like to hear yours. The trouble is, I can't figure out how to get in touch with you, because you are a danged "Guest" and I can't PM you.

How do we get around that?

Dylan was right on the mark with that song, and he still is today.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:54 PM

So it should have been "The times are always changing?" LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:05 PM

Yeah, probably should have...

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:11 PM

Well, Kendall, in the UK we currently have first past the post for electing members of Parliament, so a <1% majority will do to elect each member, even if short of a 50% total. Likewise for votes in Parliament - 1 vote will swing it. But the tricky bit is that we are currently governed by a coalition because no party had 51% of the seats in the House of Commons. And the coalition government's programme doesn't necessarily reflect the views of party members of either party. So there are arguments about whether the Government has a mandate for the measures they are implementing.

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:18 PM

Little Hawk, Oh I think it could happen...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:20 PM

Amos, when we were discussing Obama's run for the presidency, I suggested that he was a creature of the system.

You denied that and said that he represented change and a new kind of politics.

Now you proclaim that Obama "saved capitalism" and in doing so lost the election.

Who was right and who was wrong?

The only change worth having, is the destruction of the system.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:30 PM

"you say you want a revolution? We'd all love to see the plan"...Lennon

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Bobert at the library
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:43 PM

Touchy little sumabichin' library computer...

Just two thoughts...

First, this is the second election in 10 years that the Republican appointed Supreme Courth has trumped... But more importantly than stolen elections (since we can't do anything about them right now) is...

...my second point which is that the Republican are going to have to end their two year long game of "Rope-a-Dope" with the American people... I'm going to realy enjoy the Repubs having to stand behind ***real*** policy positions other than "we wnat our country back"... Yeah, being a policy wonk, a student of politics, economics and history this is going to be very interesting not only in Washington but here in Mudville....

So, Repubs... Your ideas, por favor???

Oh, I'm going to love this...

(That makes you sound like an elitists, Boberdz...)

Whatever???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM

Lennon?....did you mean Lenin?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:29 PM

Best line of the day from Sarah

"We can see 2012 from our house"

Wonder if the Dems think thats as funny as the "Russia" gag. :0)

"How they tittered and how they chaffed,
How the brothers and the sisters laughed"

No bodys laughin' now!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:31 PM

I was watching Senator Orrin Hatch today being interviewed. The interviewer asked him how he would cut spending in the most expensive programs, Medicare, Social security and the military. It was funny watching him two step and do his best to not answer. She kept pressing him for a specific answer and he just wouldn't stand.
Cliches' and tired old platitudes as usual. Career politicians learn to dance in their first year in congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:15 PM

I have watched 3-4 of them being interviewed and asked similar questions. They never seem to have clear answers about what to do. The whole campaign was based on what NOT to do..."Don't agree with ANYTHING Obama proposes."

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:19 PM

""Now, there's something to be real proud of and I'll bet that's definitely why the sons a'bitches voted them in, too, just to get that upstart outta there!""

That's how it looks from this side of the pond Kat, and it stinks.

From where I stand, the red neck, white, republican tribe, has followed a "block everthing Obama tries to do" policy, and then blamed him for all the things that they prevented from getting done.

Comes the election, following a deluge of lies, they have won Congress.

They sure put that uppity n****r in his place, and took back their country.

Seems to me America has lost out, and is stuck with a government which would happily see the country go down the crapper, rather than accept that a black man should be in charge.

Jim Crow is alive and well, and whatever the outcome in social or economic terms, the US loses out once more to the racist attitudes of the past.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:29 PM

C'mon now, Don... 'some' of those NO votes are obviously racist, but that uppity n****r got 53% of the vote a couple years ago. 20-30% probably wouldn't vote for Obama if you paid them, but there are plenty who vote for principles and competence.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:56 PM

..."opinion blows back and forth".    It's not as simple as that.   

Politicians try to divine what their voters want to hear and tell them that.   Once they have done so and been elected, if their conduct differs from what voters were told in the election, groups monitoring them may well publicize this.

This applies especially when the politician was elected on the basis of opposing outrages perpetrated by the other side.   If he or she then were to compromise with the alleged evil forces (the other side), that politician may well be out on his or her ear at the next election. Particularly the case with House members--who have to run every 2 years.

Hence extreme partisans--especially in the House which was in fact set up expressly to be more directly responsive to the electorate than the Senate.   And very likely gridlock, if as now, the split is pretty even in the Senate, and closer than it was in the House.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:30 PM

The reason they absolutely will NOT tell the public any specifics about what they really intend to do to "cut spending" is...there'd be a revolution if they revealed what they actually intend to do.

They do not intend to cut spending. Hardly. Neither party has any intention of truly cutting spending. They intend to pretend that somehow that they are cutting spending (like they pretended to pull out of Iraq recently) while continuing to bankroll the biggest and most wasteful military budget in the world, while continuing to chip away at social services and civil rights, while continuing to create new debts and new fiat money (invented with the mere stroke of a computer key).

They will not cut spending. They will continue to bleed the middle class and abandon the poor, export jobs to Asia and Mexico, and provide windfalls to the richest 1 % of the population.

All talk of cutting spending is merely propaganda intended to sway the minds of the ordinary public via the mass media. It's a lie, no matter whether the Republicans promise to do it or the Democrats promise to do it. They tell these lies with utter aplomb, because they know that their well-controlled mass media will manipulate the American public into a completely false impression of what is going on, and the game will continue as it has in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:37 PM

"fiat money" is likely to be beneficial at this stage of the economic cycle - but the Tea Party and Republican's won't be creating it, in fact they'll likely be reducing it, and having sown the seeds then the US economy will reap the whirlwind.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 09:39 PM

PS - for once I am inclined to agree with Don in that when the Tea Party are discussing Obama the word "uppity" seeks to hover in the air awaiting its moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Mr G.
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:14 PM

In light of this discussion, this entry, from another subject, is unbelievably nothing short of brilliant, and right on!



Subject: RE: BS: WOW!!! NBC Reports on Repub Cash...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 01:59 AM

As I posted a few weeks ago, about the Koch Bros....this is not 'breaking news', but it has caused me to be a bit suspicious, of the Tea Party.
Well, close to suspicious of the Soros funding on the left.(They probably didn't run a 'balanced' story, just about the Koch money). If they wanted to get really heavy, they'd be talking about the Saudi money, and/or the Chinese demands and sanctions, because of our debt!...But what is really happening is not even about Republicans and Democrats...that is the lightweight illusion.

What is really happening is the dissolution of the United States, (who, btw, is the occupying government of America!) ...and their frantic struggle to hold on to some power, as we dissolve.

Now, if you don't understand that, don't get all pissy. There is a LOT of shit going on, that the common citizen has not much info on, but they DO FEEL the effects...and because of lack of truthful info, they(we) are turning against each other, and blaming each other for it..when in reality, this is WAY over most of their heads, as so far, as the treaties that have been signed, and deals struck, outside of Constitutional scrutiny..and away from the eyes of we citizens!

So big deal, we have Kochs, Soros, Murdoch, GE, Westinghouse, blah blah blah...They have all become greedy manipulative little shits!!!..
and NONE of them are concerned with YOUR or America's well being!!..only what's in it for them!

NOBODY is forcing you to buy into their crap, anymore than selling out to so-called 'liberalism', or 'conservatism'....and they'll even re-define those 'definitions' as well, to make sure you THINK you are trapped into one of them!!!......and your best bud, is really your enemy!...FUCK THAT!!

They've re-defined: 'Civil Rights', Democracy, the Republic, causes for war, national security, sexual identities, entitlements, marriage, poverty, education, debt, profit, patriotism, and so much more.....and are trying to sell us a 'reality' of their own choosing and design!..FUCK THAT, too!

No one here, is dependent on living in their illusions of reality...in fact, they are dependent on those who buy into it!!!

Maybe along the way, some of you decided that it was cooler to be more 'comfortable'..and that included 'selling out'!...and the spirit of loving your fellow man has been replaced by only getting along with those who agree with your mutual pet dogmas, either religious, or political!

What is more important, is what lays ahead, in their diabolical schemes...but even MORE important, is how we behave, and how we hold on to our character and morals and soul(if you will), than trading them in for some stupid shallow swill, that they are dishing out 24-7!

Shit! Some of us write...and reach out to God only knows where, to grab a piece of the heart and soul of the common force of life, and try to put it in lyrics, or a tune or a harmony.....and all we get is shit you're inspired by, from propagandized 'news'????....or shit dripping from the mouths of politicians???? HOLY SHIT!! Have we lived so long, and through so much, that all your painful experiences have brought you NO WHERE??!!??

Tune in Turn on and sell out??? Damn, if you had the spark to know to dial into something higher before, why revert back to voluntary mental illness??...We should be higher now, both in understanding, and in accessing!.....But, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, let's be small, and bicker on who's giving whom what, to deceive the 'rest of the already deceived'.

If you wanted to, if you were really dialed in enough, and hip enough, you'd be 'pointing the way'..now, wouldn't you?....but instead, you've got your fingers up your noses, and pouting...FUCK THAT, too!

We don't need 'leaders', we need those who can FIND it!....then point the way.

Oh Well, ya' probably don't even know what I'm talkin' about...but to those few who may........keep going, and reach 'escape velocity'!!!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:32 PM

Gigi Sohn writes in the Huffington Post that one of the results of the mid-term elections was the defeat of Representative Rick Boucher, the current Chair of the House Subcommittee on Communications, Technology and the Internet, widely recognized as one of the most tech-savvy and intelligent members of Congress, and long an advocate for consumers on a wide variety of communications and intellectual property issues. Boucher has been the best friend of fair use on Capitol Hill writes Sohn. In 2002, 2003 and 2007, Boucher introduced legislation to allow consumers to break digital locks for lawful purposes, a fair use exception to the anti-circumvention provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and while the odds against that legislation passing were always great, Boucher understood the symbolic importance of standing up for consumers' rights to use technology lawfully. 'As important, he served as a moderating force both on the House Energy & Commerce and Judiciary Committees against those many members of Congress willing to give large media companies virtually everything on their copyright wish lists.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: J-boy
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:02 AM

The working-class poor of my state(Maine)seem determined to vote themselves into oblivion. I don't understand why someone would support a candidate so opposed to their self interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:30 AM

Well, Amos, in spite of Gigi Sohn's praise of Representative Rick Boucher, he must have done something that pissed off the folks in his district that sent him to Washington. Right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:29 AM

Little Hawk: "All talk of cutting spending is merely propaganda intended to sway the minds of the ordinary public via the mass media. It's a lie, no matter whether the Republicans promise to do it or the Democrats promise to do it. They tell these lies with utter aplomb, because they know that their well-controlled mass media will manipulate the American public into a completely false impression of what is going on, and the game will continue as it has in the past."

So, to 'spend' more money, by that, you mean, BORROW more money...from who? Print bonds? That they buy back, with no money??...You mean an IOU, as collateral for another IOU??? Sounds like what the did in the mortgage debacle..except this time, its with our currency? not only is that stupid, but its illegal. But I suppose with enough corruption to grease the media, they'll make it appear OK? or at least 'palatable'?

What it really is is a last ditch effort, before things turn to shit!..I mean SERIOUS shit!...is it not?

Little Hawk, with all due respects, and I say that, as to a friend, this is WAY bigger than your stated issues...however, that being said, your issues are correct, too. This is one of the agendas, of which I have posted on here.

Would you take an IOU to back up another IOU, that is used as backing for yet another IOU, and let's say, sell your car, for one of those???
That is where we are at, now!

All this borrowing, and stupid bills, based on borrowing, running up our debt into the trillions(above the $800,000,000,000 printed), is absolutely catastrophic!!! Like I said, in the other post I was going to address, we are watching ourselves living the dissolution of the United States.

Wanna' write a protest song?? The common citizen didn't do this, but was deceived, into taking part. Write a song of the human outcry, of the suffering, as a result of this.

As for me, my protest songs lift the beauty that they can never take away. (I think that's why when I play, people are actually having tears run down....but I use NO lyrics!----Though I have some older ones that do).

By the Way, Yo-Ho!!

Mr. G: "In light of this discussion, this entry, from another subject, is unbelievably nothing short of brilliant, and right on!"

Hey thanks..I got it from Sanity-Land. I don't know what part stuck out to you, but I do hope it fed your being.

Do you play and instrument?...........If so, turn your music into the truth coming out from your heart of hearts..blow them away!!!


Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 04:44 AM

Will people frothing at the mouth about debt please please please just go and read a couple of basic things like the wikipedia articles on money supply and economic multipliers?

At this stage, the US economy needs stimulus. In fact it could do with a fair dollop of "tax and spend" but that is not it seems sellable to the irrational public in the USA or UK. Failing "tax and spend" increasing the money supply is exactly what the US needs, and directing available money to those on the margins will ensure that that money gets spent - all to the good.

The Tea Party loonies and illiterates are not going to do that and indeed it seems to me that there is a real risk of budgets failing to be agreed, and once there is no money available to government (the consequence of legislative failure on budgets) all of the things that central and local government provide (most infrastructure) are at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:19 AM

OK. I'm bemused and confused.

The Republican backed Tea party backed Republican candidates who were elected are part of the new 3rd party in the exclusive 2 party political system, and will sit with the Repubs in the Party meetings, so...

.....

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:32 AM

Right, Robin,-- they've--already--been co-opted by the Republicans.    At least one--Rand Paul--said election night he would argue with his (Republican) leader every day.   We'll see.

But the current situation is yet another reason to be concerned about Sarah.    Above anybody else, she is the bridge between the two factions of the Republican party.

Which makes her nomination as Presidential candidate of the Republicans in 2012 even more likely. If she wants it.   So far, no indication she does not.   And Mudcatters' scorn for her will likely be as effective as it was keeping GWB (and, pre-Mudcat) Reagan out of the White House.

Main question will be the unemployment rate in 2012. As I've noted elsewhere, the Fed said recently it would be about 9%.   Not good enough to save a sitting President--unless he can pin the blame on the other side.   With an (officially) Democratic Senate, not easy.

So we come back to the opening post, now too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:21 AM

100 years ago when I was in College my Economics Professor said. Deficit government spending is not a problem at all .. "As long as the debt is held internal" IE war bonds, treasury notes. You see the country then owes money to itself .. One of the things he rambled over and over is when the debt is controlled by foreign sources it is a major problem for they then control the value of your currency through lending or through calling a debt due. Obama, inherited a crisis, there was no choice but to spend and borrow or witness the total collapse of the financial segment. It was created through greed and through corporate mismanagement and a naive thought that bank could regulate themselves. Two expensive wars and several national disasters help fuel this debt. It is complex and will be more than lets stop spending to fix it. No matter who is control, stop the spending and watch the unemployment number go to 14%+ . Continue to borrow and your economy is owned by a foreign government. Very hard decisions that anyone in office is going to face.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:40 AM

And to add to it, you cannot sustain an economy long through only government spending. That didn't work historically IE USSR and will not work here or anywhere else. Obama did the right thing when he stated we need to create new technology and started pushing "green energy etc" That was a suggestion that we need to change and create private sector jobs of new thinking. Maybe that isn't the best approach but jobs need to come from the private sector or we all going to fail.   When we lost our manufacturing jobs as was going to happen we left a void that has yet to be filled. We can complain about cheap labor and no rules the other nations have but they will say, hey it is our time now, you went through your industrialization so why not us. It is clear we won't be able to compete in manufacturing as the third world countries are now where we were 100+ years ago in manufacturing. That is why we read about child labor and such, we went through the same thing only many years ago.   So where does it leave us, I submit to great minds than me but we need to be the worlds most innovative nation (we once was), or turn to services. I see no other choice at the moment. Both of which required education (the very thing many wish to cut)

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 10:48 AM

Hey, folks, I just read a fascinating little book, a series of essays by Gore Vidal....and you all should give it a look. It's called "The Decline and Fall of the American Empire", and it succinctly explains what has been going on since 1950 till now, how the USA turned from a creditor nation to a debtor nation during Reagan's term of office, how the 2 parties are really one party that masquerades as a supposed choice...and so on...

Very interesting! Gore Vidal was born into the rich elite. He was recognized as brilliant from an early age. He went through their ivy league school system. But unlike most of them he decided to break ranks and talk about what's really going on. As such, he is regarded as absolutely "outrageous" by the establishment and mass media, because he pulls back the curtain and reveals the Great Oz, who is nothing but a group of rich little men in business suits, the owners of 19 or 20 huge multi-national corporations. Are they a conspiracy? Yes. And no. Yes, because they share in a common purpose, which is to control government policy and thereby enrich themselves. No, because they are just doing what comes naturally to them anyway, which is to do whatever will most enrich themselves...so why would they even have to conspire? ;-D

Anyway, read it. I dare you. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 11:04 AM

GfS - Yes, I was just talking about one small aspect of the situation...how phony money is created out of nothing...but you are right that it's bigger than that, and we are witnessing the dissolution of America.

The masters of the Great Game have re-defined a whole lot of common words in the common vernacular, words such as "liberal", "conservative", "defense", "socialist", etc....they've redefined those words and many others in the public consciousness through their mass media bullshit to the point where people have no idea what the words originally meant. The new definitions are intended to stereotype and divide people into opposing camps, and totally mislead people about what's happening. (The "defense" industry, for example, does not DEFEND! It attacks. It attacks people in many parts of the world and its primary purpose is to invade and attack.)

As said by Boss Tweed in "Gangs of New York", "You can always get one half of the poor to kill the other half for you..."

The American public are being divided against one another constantly through this Newspeak business of giving false new definitions to keywords that are spoken strictly to upset and mislead people.

The Great Oz is getting desperate, and the tactics of control are getting very crude indeed. I keep wondering just when and how the shit will finally hit the fan.

In the meantime, we must promote the most positive and unifying messages we can on behalf of the rest of us...that is, humanity in general. We have far more in common than the trivial issues that are trotted out to divide us. People should turn off their damned TVs and start reading books and talking to each other instead of listening to Fox or CNN. They might learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 11:43 AM

Where are all the Microsofts? Like it or not like it, one company owns the operating system of the world's computing. Why are there not 20 Microsoft's ? Innovation and education is the only solution to unemployment and financial ruin. Playing smoke and mirrors with numbers on Wall Street will not, nor will party bantering. Take back America? To What. We will never fill the void of lost manufacturing in a global economy for it is not possible. but we sure can with innovation, and not number games from banks and wall street. A complete and total retooling of America and its education systems. WE create engineers and world class scientists, we thrive, we piss and moan about lost auto jobs and look towards government, we lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:12 PM

Indeed. And why are there not 150 small local auto companies in America, as once was the case, all providing local jobs in many different cities, all competing against each other and producing a unique quality product? Why has it been comglomerated into a handful of huge outfits in Detroit which produce crummy vehicles at inflated prices? What we have witnessed in a hundred years is the destruction of small scale capitalism as it once existed, and its replacement by multi-national conglomerates in the hands of an elite few who ship most of the jobs to the Third World and destroy local jobs and industy in North America. We are now seeing the destruction of the middle class and the division of society into a few very rich and a great many powerless poor...a poor who are told they still have a choice at the polls...but they don't, because the elite few control BOTH the Republican and the Democratic parties and control government policy by financing the election campaigns. It is the servants of the corporate elite who get elected to office, because only those people can receive sufficient funding and media coverage to get elected in the first place. Once in office, they do as they are told...or suffer the consequences, and the consequences are not nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:21 PM

>>Well, Amos, in spite of Gigi Sohn's praise of Representative Rick Boucher, he must have done something that pissed off the folks in his district that sent him to Washington. Right?

DougR <<

Are you kidding Doug? Isn't your side saying this was a mandate against (and a clear message to) Obama and Pelosi? What is wrong? You haven't got your talking points yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:26 PM

Well, putting end-game hypotheses and conspiracy theories aside for the moment ( I fully expect GfS or LH to start talking about the
Templars or the illuminati at any moment), my opinion of Obama's election at the time was "why in God's name does he want to take this on?" Anyone who was elected President in 2008 was inheriting a failed economy, a massive debt, and an angry electorate. At his election, Obama's popularity was off the charts. Why? Because people were desparate for any kind of hope. I knew when he moved from the realm of the abstract to actually implementing change , that he would experience massive opposition. In short, he was faced with an unwinnable game.

As someone said previously, he has been President for 18 months, has been responsible for an enormous amount of legislation, and opposition to him breaks into two camps: Those who feel that he hasn't done enough, and those who feel he's done too much. I will give him credit for instituting emergency stopgap measures which prevented a total and immediate meltdown of the financial system. And I give him credit for pursuing solutions to long-term issues like universal health care, which had been permanently tabled. Confronted with complex issues, Obama has attempted complex solutions. And complex is something the electorate neither desires or understands. What they understand is the FOX National Debt clock. What they understand is a Republican candidate nailing the Cap and Trade Agreement to a tree and shooting it with a 9mm pistol. In short, we desire solutions, but have none of the patience or understanding of the issues necessary to achieve them.

In such an environment, how could anyone prevail in making needed change? We are disappointed, but we shouldn't be surprised. When Barack Obama made his victory speech, there were those who decided on the spot that we would support him through thick and thin, and there were others who had been defeated, but who knew better than to rail in bitterness in the face of so much hope. They knew that, biding their time, they could simply outwait us.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:50 PM

olddude and Little Hawk, You've got a more realistic view, more than most of what is going on! However, Little Hawk, I'd like to point out one small(?) detail, that you may have possibly misquoted, or mis-phrased, it is the dissolution of the 'United States', not America(if you catch my drift). America is the land, and the spirit which belongs to it...The 'United States' is the occupying government, which has opted out of what they originally were intended to be, in trade to be something else, through the 'wily ways' of corrupting forces, and has now become the common vernacular and mindset, of the citizen's conscience.....That's one BIG reason now one can agree on anything. They've been removed from their original reality, and sold a notion that it was, or should be something else.

Did that make sense to you?.....In other words, people's present reality was shifted away from reality, in order that it can be manipulated, to facilitate the goals, of those, who have self serving interests, that need to crush the spirit of us(?), in order to 'satisfy' their aims. I think they may succeed, but only for a time.
An attribute of living beings is regeneration, those who are NOT fully living need to be 'psychic vampires' ...which the only way they can, is for us to turn it over to them....in other words, by our own permission...which of course, incorporates deception, on their part, and a 'surrender' of that which is sacred, on the prey's part.
This IS the political process!

But then, if a family man goes to see a hooker, with AIDS, who's fucking who?

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 12:54 PM

"What they understand is a Republican candidate nailing the Cap and Trade Agreement to a tree and shooting it with a 9mm pistol. "

wasn't that a DEMOCRATIC candidate? In WV?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:00 PM

beardedbruce, Manchin, and it was a rifle..he won, btw!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:06 PM

LEJ - I think you are really being a sorry-ass and mentally lazy dude to drag out the old "conspiracy theory" chesnut as a dismissal. You must not have read what I said about the Vidal book with enough care. I said:

"Are they a conspiracy? Yes. And no. Yes, because they share in a common purpose, which is to control government policy and thereby enrich themselves. No, because they are just doing what comes naturally to them anyway, which is to do whatever will most enrich themselves...so why would they even have to conspire? ;-D"

Now read that with some comprehension, okay? I was basically paraphrasing what Gore Vidal says in one of his essays in response to the usual media dismissal which is to laughingly joke...."conspiracy theory". And which you are now doing.

Look, man, you don't need an overall conspiracy for this sort of thing to happen. You simply need an entrenched elite at the top of a society who have basically common objectives.

1. they want to get even richer and more powerful
2. they want governments not to interfere much in the process of their getting richer, and that means: deregulation and other such manuovers

This elite are in vicious competition with each other too. Don't forget that. So of course they conspire. Duh! ANY private meeting of individuals which formulates a plan and doesn't tell the general public about that plan IS a conspiracy. So a couple of corporations, for example, will have a board meeting and conspire as to how they can join forces and buy out some other businesses and split the proceeds.

Conspiracies do not need to be single or monolithic to be conspiracies. There are probably several million conspiracies being hatched in the USA every day by private persons, criminals, aunties who are spying on the neighbours, CEOs, the CIA, businessmen, salesmen, teenage kids, you name it.

Conspiracies are normal in business. You don't tell all the other business people what moves you are about to make! Conspiracies are also normal in government. You don't tell the other governments about your strategic plans, military or otherwise. That's why we have spies, for gosh sakes!

So conspiracies are as common as grass and weeds.

But when you dismiss what I'm talking about as a "conspiracy theory", you are suggesting that I'm saying it's a single monolithic conspiracy, a la the Illuminati, the Templars, the Masons, etc... You do that so you can just laugh it off.

It does not have to be that at all. It just has to be a large number of enormous multi-national businesses who all wish to maximize their profits...naturally! That's what they're in it for. And they have, in general, very common interests when it comes to how to do that, because they are concerned about how the government taxes corporations, how the government regulates the banks and lending institutions, how the goverment handles trade and tariffs, how the government spends its money, how the government borrows its money, and where the government will fight its wars.

All this concerns them in common, because it affects their profits. They don't need to all get together and form a monolithic conspiracy. They just need to bribe the politicians through campaign funding and lobbying so as to control the political process and influence all those things I mentioned in the above paragraph.

And that is what they do. It's inevitable that they would do it.

Like all organized criminals, they are also quite willing to stab each other in the back when a lucrative opportuntiy arises, and of course they do that too. They are not a single monolithic conspiracy, LEJ, they are a bunch of separate businessmen with a very similar set of profit-making objectives, that's all.

In medieval times it was the Church of Rome, the Royals, and the Nobility who ran the show. They were the controlling elite. That wasn't a single monolithic conspiracy either...but it might as well have been from the point of view of the millions of peasants who suffered miserably under it, and the Muslims whose lands were invaded in the Crusades!

Get what I mean now?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:10 PM

I stand corrected. Let me rephrase it.

"What they understand is a Democratic candidate who is more interested in following the prevailing breeze than standing on principle, nailing the Cap and Trade Agreement to a tree and shooting it with a rifle."

Either way, I believe you get the point. Demagoguery cuts in both directions.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:11 PM

GfS - Absolutely right. It is the dissolution of the United States that is occuring, not of America. America is a sacred area of land stretching from the North Pole to Tierra Del Fuego, and as you say, it is also the Spirit of that land. The United States is, as you say, an occupying government which has siezed a large part of that sacred land and is attempting to control the rest of it through financial, political, and paramilitary means. The United States is falling apart, but the land of America will endure.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:21 PM

Of course demagoguery cuts in both directions. That's what your 2-party system is for. ;-) It divides and separates, and you're suddenly more powerless. In Canada we have 5 parties, so demagoguery cuts 5 ways here! It also divides and separates and renders the public powerless, but in a more complicated way...which actually has some beneficial effects on moderating the process. We have long had relatively moderate governments, but the one we have now is probably the worst ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:38 PM

The Democratic Senator from West Virginia was doing exactly what he should do. He was defending the interests of West Virginia. Cap and Trade will hurt West Virginia jobs. There is no doubt of that. Democrats are not expected to toe the party line on every single issue. You need the modern Republicans for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:56 PM

Little Hawk: "...America is a sacred area of land stretching from the North Pole to Tierra Del Fuego..."

However, Do Not confuse that with the 'North American Union'...that is man/corporate/political made....and therefore, not sacred.

Just thought I'd throw that in, as to clarify what and who we really are!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:58 PM

There is a North American Union?

LOL Watch out GfS, a squirrel might store you for the winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 01:59 PM

I don't think that demagoguery is standard, LH. You are interpreting it as the source and inspiration for both parties. I am saying it is an individual phenomenon related to ego and an overwhelming desire to be elected. I don't think Barack Obama, or for that matter Mike Huckabee or Lindsey Graham, are examples of this.
Jack, I get your point. The point I was going for is that photo ops and sound bytes are the fodder the voting public is consuming, rather than long-term solutions, which tend to require effort and concentration.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:01 PM

Jack, I guess that depends on how you look at it....or if you can see far enough...

Wink!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:04 PM

Hey, I'd love to stay on, while you're all on...but I've got to go...(grrr)....Have a great 'Muddy' Day..will catch up with you later!

GfS

P.s. unless there is something really pressing on here, Soon, but I need to go..(appointment)

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:18 PM

>>>>From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity - PM
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:04 PM

Hey, I'd love to stay on, while you're all on...but I've got to go...(grrr)....Have a great 'Muddy' Day..will catch up with you later!

GfS

P.s. unless there is something really pressing on here, Soon, but I need to go..(appointment)

Regards,

GfS <<<


Thanks for the status update. I was dying to know how you were spending your afternoon. How sane of you to tell us. You know there are two whole websites for that called "Twitter" and "Facebook."

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:22 PM

Jack, my post wasn't particularly pointed in your direction....but I appreciate the thought.....and I'm aware of twitter and facebook.

Take a red.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:27 PM

Come on Jack. We can all wait until he gets back. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:34 PM

From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:44 AM

It is clear from this side of the pond that Americans are not fit to govern themselves. We should take it back


Seems to me we're not the only country to turn the reins over to the Consevatives this year. One might even say that after direction Blair and Browne took New Labor, that you guys don't even have a liberal party capable of forming a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:46 PM

>>Come on Jack. We can all wait until he gets back.<<

That's what I am talking about!!! I know I will be waiting with baited breath! If he was on twitter I would get an alert on my smart phone and I wouldn't have to check this thread every two minutes to see if he has returned!!

I'm dying to know how the appointment went and whether or not he went to Starbucks on the way home!! It is sooooo relevant to the topic at hand!!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:46 PM

Oh great, the Redcoats are coming.

We look forward to the beer, but leave the kidney pie at home if you don't mind. And if anybody could do a worse job building cars than us, its definitely you Brits. I can't wait to see what Lucas Electric will do for the Chevy Volt.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 02:55 PM

Come on EJ, GUEST is entitled to express his opinion.

Though I am sad that he did not wait for GfS to get back from his appointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:11 PM

None of these matters are what I believe GfS would call "pressing", so I think its ok, Jack.
I expect him back shortly, as most meetings of the Civilization is Shit and We Are All being Brainwashed Club usually devolves into chaotic shouting with fifteen minutes at which point someone expresses the belief that the room is being bugged and they all head home using back alleyways.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:26 PM

These election results are a setback for the Democratic Party and Obama and for the America people (even though the Tea Partiers don't know it - yet).    But they don't have to be a "disaster."

Yes, the House is in Republican hands.   But, given the regimentation of the Republican Party in recent years, the Democrats and Obama wouldn't have had any less control over the House of Representatives if the Republicans just had a majority of 1 or 2.

But the Senate is still controlled by the Democrats, and if they have the backbone and the determination to get things done, they will open the next Congress by changing the Senate rules to make routine filibusters unfeasible and to prevent individual Senators from putting lengthy holds on cabinet appointments, etc., or on bills that are in committee.   They can change the rules to make Senatorial deliberations much more transparent.

Obama and the Democrats can also use the media to shine a spotlight on the Republicans' agenda and tactics. Obama can take on the big-money interests the way both Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt did, too. He may be a one-term President if he does, but he will be anyway if he doesn't.    At this point, even if he pulls a Bill Clinton and acts like a moderate corporatist Republican, he will lose in 2010. That's the Republicans' stated principal goal, and that's not going to change because Obama tries to be "Republican lite."

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:31 PM

Side note: How come there are people, subjected to exactly the same society and media who see other people as being brainwashed but not themselves?

Should the above question have its own thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to to tell me exactly which lobby it was that pushed the Dems to take up health care reform... No, not tyhe ones that ended up benefiting but the ones who were on the front end of pushing it???

I mean, yeah, Gore Vidal had some very useful insights and I loved the debates he used to have with Bill Buckley but there are times when a political party does something just because it is right and because it is way overdue... The Civil Rights Act being a case in point when even Lyndon Johnson knew in pushing it he was committing suicide for the Democratic Party in the South for years to come...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM

Exactly, Bobert! There ARE some political figures who actually try to make the system work FOR the majority of the people. Unfortunately, the very rich and the corporations and their lawyers are not part of the majority, and really don't like the system changed in any way that might make them 'less' super-rich. They don't want any updates to the Constitution or any regulation of banking or any restriction of how much they can spend on political campaigns.
I sorta see their viewpoint, but knowing how a bully thinks does not excuse how he pushes around the smaller kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM

That's my point, Bill...

There are those here who are so stuck on the "both the same" theme that they are not capable of thinking any other way...

If they were both the same then the Repubs would have pushed for health care reform at some point in the last 8 years... But not only didn't they but none voted for health care reform...

I mean, if they are both corporate puppets then I'd think that one of
"both siders" would step up and kindly tell us which corporations pushed the Dems into this???

But that question isn't at all convenient for the "both siders" 'cause it doesn't fit nicely into their mythology...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 04:58 PM

"How come there are people, subjected to exactly the same society and media who see other people as being brainwashed but not themselves?"

Because, Jack, I get my information from reading contemporary books by various independent political anyalysts whom I respect and from consulting a great variety of independent sources...not from watching daily TV programming, not by tuning into the daily "news" (which is propaganda, distortion, and distraction) from CNN/Fox/NBC etc, and not by listening to commercial radio "news" (which is even worse). You see...I am NOT subjected to the same media most Americans are, because I don't even tune in to the mass media except for an occasional laugh and a way to remind myself how useless and corrupted they have become. I get my information elsewhere...mostly by reading books and newspaper and magazine articles and articles on the Internet (which is still free). Also, I have access to the Canadian press, which although rather dominated by its American sources is still not as stone-dead-batshit-insane as its American counterparts are.

Further to that, I can recommend the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) which is publicly funded, therefore not a compliant slave of a group of corporate commercial sponsors. Then too, there is the BBC, which usually has a much saner view of reality than American media do. And then there's the rest of the world, always worth listening to for an alternate view of reality.

The average American (and Canadian) citizen becomes a passive sponge for the daily commercial TV and radio programming, all funded by corporate sponsors who want to push the corporate agenda. People are trained like parrots in cages by that corporate-sponsored media, and they are programmed into unthinking conformity by it.

I am not. Because I don't watch it or listen to it. Period.

If people want to free themselves and use their own minds and come to their own intelligent conclusions, they must stop being passive receivers of mass media daily propaganda as delivered on corporate-owned network news.

***

Bobert - I think there are some genuine progressives in the Democratic Party, and they probably pushed for health care reform out of genuine idealism...and because it's simply insane NOT to reform your health care system! Then there are the opportunists who thought "This will sound wonderful to our supporters and get us many votes, but we'll have to shape it the way our lobbyist pals in the private health insurance industry want it so they can get richer and we can continue getting their funding."

Unfortunately, the opportunists got their way and you did not get what you should have: a single payer government-administered health care plan such as exists in Canada, Japan, and western Europe.

I don't know which camp Obama is in. He may be one of the genuine idealists or he may be an opportunist. I just don't know. I do know he's a very bright man and a superb orator who makes a great impression when he speaks. I've been very impressed by some of his speeches...but not so impressed by his actual policies as carried out. I don't know if it's that he can't do what he wants to...quite possible...or that he never had any real intention of doing what he said he would do. It could be one. It could be the other. It could even be a combination of the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:01 PM

LH,

" do know he's a very bright man and a superb orator who makes a great impression when he speaks. I've been very impressed by some of his speeches...but not so impressed by his actual policies as carried out."

I agree with you on these comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:07 PM

If that is the case LH, if you are not consuming the same media as me then what I said does not apply to you then does it?

I am happy that you have found for yourself a superior way of gathering information. Something that makes you so smug must be completely flawless. But it does piss me off a little to be called "brainwashed" even by someone so obviously well informed.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM

Jack, you need to study how to talk with other people without quickly getting angry, personal, and confrontational while you do it...because that inevitably poisons the discussion.

Nobody's method of gathering information is "perfect". We each try as best we can, and we are not perfect. I think that a person in Nazi Germany would have done better at getting a real understanding of events in 1940 by listening NOT JUST to the official German home broadcast media, but also to many independent voices, to the BBC, to America, to Switzerland, and to anyone else he could tune into. Don't you think so?

That was my point. You cannot trust the ruling mass media in the USA to give you an honest picture, because they are deeply influenced by their funding sources...their owners...their sponsors. And their owners are extremely few, and very centralized...like they were in Nazi Germany.

I am not smug, Jack, I am impassioned...and I am independent, and I recognize the face of fascism when I see it.

I am not calling you "brainwashed" and there is no sense in you taking it personally. I don't know where you get your info, and I have no basis for judging you on an individual basis. I was speaking generally about what I see happening in mass society in North America...I was not speaking about you as an individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:18 PM

Germany does not have single payer. They have highly regulated private insurers. That is the model that US health reform has as its goals.

There is more than one way to efficiently manage health care for a nation.

And if you think that Obama did not try to get the best outcome FOR the people that he could, given what he had to work with, you are not as well informed as you think AND you did not count the votes in the Senate. Hint: Lieberman, independent "Democrat" from insurance state Connecticut killed the public option and several other Democratic Senators made single payer a non-starter.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:27 PM

LH,

You need to think about it for a second before you take comment about calling others brainwashed as personal affront. Because calling an opponent in an argument "brainwashed", is angry and confrontational.

Do not pretend to be above the fray as you ally yourself and suck up to a person who is angry and confrontational in nearly every post.

If you are not calling people "brainwashed" why are you answering the question below...

"How come there are people, subjected to exactly the same society and media who see other people as being brainwashed but not themselves?"

with "Because,"

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:54 PM

Chris B, winning an election does not a "mandate" make.

First off, when almost half of the voters preferred someone else, you clearly don't have overwhelming popular support.   Even if you get 60% of the vote, that's only considered a "landslide" because it's such a rare occurrence in US politics. You still have 40% of the voters who preferred someone else.

Secondly, you can't tell from the mere vote totals why people voted the way they do. There are "single-issue" voters, who will back a candidate they agree with on ONLY that one issue (e.g, gun rights, anti-abortion legislation).    A candidate, such as Obama, can lose support because: a) people prefer more "conservative" policies, b) people prefer more "liberal" policies, or c) they have been misled about the candidate's policies, platform, accomplishments, etc.

If you want to know what "message" the people are sending, do some good, non-partisan, scientific opinion research.   INFORM them, insofar as that's possible, about what the various legislation would and would not do and then ASK them, not just whether they approve or disapprove, but WHY.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

" winning an election does not a "mandate" make.

First off, when almost half of the voters preferred someone else, you clearly don't have overwhelming popular support.   Even if you get 60% of the vote, that's only considered a "landslide" because it's such a rare occurrence in US politics. You still have 40% of the voters who preferred someone else.

"


And this applies ONLY when a conservative wins, right? We can't allow any question as to whether Obama had a Mandate, can we?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM

Jack, if I say that I was not referring to you personally as an individual, I say it because I mean it. I was speaking about a general situation I see in society that affects many people, but I was not singling out you or anyone else here as an individual. I am not "above the fray" because I care about the issues, I am simply not attacking you on a personal basis, and that is all.

You don't need to defend yourself against me, because I'm not out to get you. I am discussing general issues which affect millions of people, not picking on you personally. I'm suggesting that you shouldn't take what I say about American society personally, because my political comments are not aimed at characterizing you as "brainwashed" or anything else like that. I just think you're often oversensitive to disagreement, quick to take offense, and you get angry on the spur of the moment and take things very personally when they aren't necessarily meant that way at all.

I think you would agree that there are a substantial number of people who are brainwashed by the mass media, right? Well, that's the problem I'm talking about.

As for GfS, I'm not responsible for what he or she says or doesn't say, but I like a lot of it, that's all. I'm not "sucking up" to GfS, I genuinely am impressed by his or her independent view of things, and I express enthusiasm when I like someone else's ideas. I may not like all of it. (shrug) But so what? I don't have to like all of it. I don't expect perfection from anyone...

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:24 PM

>>>I think you would agree that there are a substantial number of people who are brainwashed by the mass media, right? <<<

No I wouldn't, I don't think so at all. In fact, quite the opposite. In today's media market people tend to choose media that reinforces existing views.

On the other hand, if what you were saying about brainwashing etc was not to counter what in answer to what I said, why did you answer it as if it were?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:43 PM

On the other hand, if what you were saying about brainwashing etc was not to counter to and in answer to what I said, why did you answer it as if it were?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM

Okay, fine, so we don't agree that "there are a substantial number of people who are brainwashed by the mass media". I'm very surprised you wouldn't think there are! I think it's plainly obvious...but okay. We apparently see that differently.

"if what you were saying about brainwashing etc was not to counter what in answer to what I said, why did you answer it as if it were?"

I was taking what you said in a very general sense as it applies to all of society, Jack, not taking it in a personal sense as it applies to you. I find it an interesting subject to discuss in a general sense, but I don't have any basis for knowing how it would apply to you personally.

Keep in mind that I am typing here and putting words down at a great rate and expressing myself as best I can at any given moment. I may not succeed in always wording everything perfectly in a way that would totally convince you that I'm not out to criticize and denigrate you personally...but that's because I'm not perfect! ;-) Nevertheless, if I tell you NOW in plain language that I was most definitely NOT asserting that you personally are brainwashed, stupid, or anything else pejorative like that, then I mean it. I am simply discussing broad societal issues that affect millions of people, I am not discussing the character faults of Jack the Sailor...except in one respect: I think you often jump to taking personal offense more quickly than the situation usually warrants, often when no such offense was intended...and that leads the whole discussion down a blind alley that helps neither you nor I.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:07 PM

""got 53% of the vote a couple years ago. 20-30% probably wouldn't vote for Obama if you paid them, but there are plenty who vote for principles and competence.""

Mebbe so Bill, but how many who vote for principles and competence also vote Republican???.......Very few apparently, given the events of the last eighteen months.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:21 PM

That doesn't mean, Don, that there aren't millions of Republicans out there who imagine that they are voting for principles and competence. I mean, hell....just ASK them! ;-D

Every political group in existence imagines they are voting for principles and competence. It's a standard assumption of the human mind, no matter what side of a partisan issue people are on. Everyone imagines he's voting for "the good guys", the principled, and the competent.

To put it another way, everyone looks through glasses tinted by their own cultural perceptions which they've garnered from birth till now, and their own perceptions alter how they see the situation. This is true of you, me, and everyone else on the face of the Earth. Never assume that you or your group stands alone in having a conscious sense of righteousness or in appreciating principles and competence.

Do I think the Republican party is a bastion of principles and competence? Ahh.....nope! I sure don't. But then, I don't think the Democratic Party is principled or competent either. ;-D Which one would I dare walk down a dark alley with? Well....I think I would try and avoid that situation altogether if I could find any possible way to. If I was forced to walk down that alley with a gun at my back, I'd say a quick prayer to the great loom of creation and Mother Nature and I'd walk with the Democrats...usually. Maybe not always, though. I have not forgotten Lyndon Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:23 PM

Well I will go back to us Independents ... My party can beat up your party doesn't wash anymore. Too many of us are results oriented and will vote based on performance. Apparently I wasn't one of the main Independents cause my guys lost big LOL... but that seems to be what most are saying and I do accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:25 PM

""Seems to me we're not the only country to turn the reins over to the Consevatives this year.""

Well, anonymous guest, I wouldn't set too much store by that, since US conservatives have very little in common with UK Conservatives.

It was, in fact, New Labour which, in the person of one Tony B Liar, was arse licking your recent microcephallic (penicephallic?) President, and supporting your conservatives to the point of lying to our Parliament and people, just as Geedumbya lied to yours.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:29 PM

""And if anybody could do a worse job building cars than us, its definitely you Brits.""

At least ours can get round corners without turning upside down EJ.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:30 PM

Brainwashed???

Sheet fire... Boss Hog spends at least a million dollars a day trying to brainwash the citizens of the United States... And it ain't all in TV ads but in his bogus think tanks and his bogus *Americans for Mom and Apple Pie* organizations and his ownership of all media and, and, and... And a million a day is probably well on the low side...

So, hey, there is plenty of propaganda being thrown at US and lots of it is real tricky... I mean, down in Harrisonburg, Va. Boss Hog bought several 40 foot trailers and put them next to the interstate lettered up with "Vote All Incumbents OUT!!!" which mean, of course, a Repub victory... But those trailers were probably well received by anyone thinking that things aren't going well and lots of people did just that... They voted against incumbents and guess what???

So let's get real here on "brainwashing"... The entire "Well, both parties are the same" is as Republican as a Republican brainwashing trick that has ever been devised... Yeah, you go back 8 years ago and that dog could hunt but that dog died... Heck, if it were still coming out of the Green Party I'd have to give it a test ride but in the last two years we've been hearing it from folks who got it right outta the Republican think tanks...

But my hat's off to the Repubs 'cause they have pulled it off on folks who I thought were "free thinkers"... Guess not...

I mean, I asked the question about who pushed the Dems into health care reform for this very reason... No one did... No Boss Hog involvement at all... That says to me that there is a difference between the two parties... At least for now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:33 PM

Brazil, I am happy to say, just voted in a populist woman who used to be a leftist revolutionary fighting against a Brazilian military dictatorship. She was imprisoned and tortured by that government. Now she is the chief executive.

Brazilian election results

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:38 PM

Bruce,
I never claimed Obama had a mandate either, much less that he won in a "landslide."

What told me that the Bush administration was extremely unpopular during most of Dubya's second term was that opinion polls pretty consistently showed GWB's favorabiility rating to be under 30% and Cheney's often even under 20%.   
Now the media talking heads spin it as Obama being very unpopular when his approval rating drops into the mid- to low 40% range (even while the Republican Party's ratings are lower).

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

Hawk, Don, there are plenty of people who vote for Republicans, believing they are voting for "principles and competence." But many of them -- some of my own friends and family who are caring, responsible, generous people -- get pretty much all their "information" from Fox News (and some even from sources like Rush Limbaugh).    In addition to the right-wing opinion slant, they are also fed a lot of misinformation and disinformation and not exposed to other sources like the (shudder! "socialist-leaning" New York Times or network news) to counter that.

One group that is especially captive to this is residents of nursing and convalescent homes and some assisted living residences as well.   The vast majority of the time, the TVs in the communal areas are set to Fox News Channel, and even the TVs in the individual rooms may be set there (though the resident could theoretically change the channel if they were assertive enough).   Decisions like that are basically made by the owners and maybe sometimes the staff.   But these folks DO vote, with the assistance of the owners and staff and sometimes outside groups (which could be the League of Women Voters or could be a church group).

And as I've said before, many people have no access whatsoever to liberal-leaning talk radio programs and very limited access to "neutral" news shows either.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:54 PM

Yeah, an another thing that really pisses me off is that every, I mean EVERY last motel in the country that has a Continental breakfast, also has a TV with Fox so-called news on it!!!

That is what I call corporate brainwashing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:19 PM

"...but how many who vote for principles and competence also vote Republican?"

Don, there are some...but I'm afraid that many Republicans define "principles and competence" from a different perspective than I...and many Democrats would. A complete exposition of that bold assertion would require quite a long post, but I mean basically that all-too-many conservatives/Republicans begin with a set of 'beliefs', often exemplified by chanted slogans.."no more taxes"-"get the government off our backs"-"stop illegal immigration"-"leave my guns alone"-"stop regulation and let businesses create jobs"-"progressive=fascism"...etc...etc...
   Now, when they many of them are asked to explain 'principles', you get one or more pre-digested slogans which they may or may not understand in the larger context of society....but which they defend as best they can manage as "givens" and not subject to discussion.
   This sort of attitude is much easier to defend and 'run with' than one which allows compromise, re-evaluates issues as circumstances change and tries to see ALL sides of a matter before pronouncing judgment based on....slogans.
Much of the attitudes I refer to are shown in being 'against' stuff, rather than offering detailed plans for reasonable progress. "We don't want to be told what to do...by anyone..especially government!" That attitude often leads to the fingers-in-the-ears "lalalalala" technique of 'discussion', and often to the "so's your Mother" form of reply. Yes, it is phrased a bit better than that, but if you insist on clarity, that's essentially what you often get.

So... are there Republicans who vote "principles and competence"? Sure....and there used to be more of them, but boy, it's hard to get the reasonable ones to stick their noses out these days. Oh, really? Yep
(note: about half... 24... of the more conservative Democrats (blue dogs) were defeated in this election, while only 4 of the 'progressives' lost. Folks were not happy with ANYONE with Democrat by their name...they wanted FARTHER right representatives, based on slogans and distortion.)

I have no idea how this works in the UK, but what little I see of Parliament leads me to believe that many members at least understand their party's positions instead of just shouting slogans..

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:23 PM

And while I typed, Genie & Bobert hit MORE nails on the head! If you hear nothing but Fox News, those 'slogans' are hammered into your head in 27 formats!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:42 PM

(I just saw Mitch McConnell state clearly that "if the Democrats want cooperation, they're going to have to move in OUR direction."

See? Compromise and bipartisan MEANS "do it our way". OUR principles are fine to ignore

......righteous crap!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:02 PM

Righto, Bill... Our population, sad to say, has been so dumbed down that once you get them beyond the bumper sticker position they are totally lost...

But here's the kicker... We are slowly but surely loosing our competitiveness because we have so dumbed down the population... That is great if yer Boss Hog living in the here-'n-now but what about Boss Hog's grandchildren??? Does Boss Hog want them living in a 3rd world country??? Well, I guess he doesn't care one way or another as long as he got his...

But really, the dilemma for the right is get our population better educated so it can compete but that means that alot more people are going to figure out Boss Hog's pea-under-the-shell game... Hmmmmm???? Oh, what to do???

Well, my guess is that Boss Hog is perfectly willing to let the country slip into 3rd world status as long as he is comfy in the here-and-now... This isn't an exaggeration... Wages for the working class have been stagnant for going on 4 decades now... Poverty rates on their way back up... Foreclosures at an all time high...

I mean, I hate to say it but Boss Hog is as evil as person as evil can be... He hates his own grandkids... He hates our country... He is so filled with hate that it is amazing that hate doesn't just kill him...

I mean, me thinks that Rodney King had more wisdom than the entire universe of Boss Hog's... I mean, just gettin' along involves carin' for one another and sharin' with one another... Boss Hog don't get this... It's like a square peg and round hole... Worse yet is that he is so miserable that he uses lots of his money brainwashing people into voting against their own self interests so they can be miserable, too...

Beam me up, Scotty... Me thinks that history is getting ready to repeat itself...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:07 PM

Many of the real "Boss Hoggs" actually do not care if the US implodes. They represent trans-national corporations, with no need for loyalty to any country.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:31 PM

Yes, that's right, Genie. They are only loyal to the bottom line. Also, they can live wherever they want to, because they have the money to do that, and most people have no idea who they even are or where they live. Thus does the invisible government rule. The politicians are the temporary and replaceable public "faces" the public focuses on, in the naive belief that the politicians are the people in charge. They're not. They are just the gophers for the people in charge.

A particularly naive belief, but a treasured one, is that if a really nice and excellent person can be elected president, everything will magically be made right! This is what I call "believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny".

My impression of Obama is that he's probably a pretty nice guy, as well as being very bright. He may also be quite idealistic. He is probably very well-intentioned. (I think Bush was well-intentioned by the way...strictly according to his own very limited view of the situation, and his view derived from his entire upbringing...).

Well, good intentions won't do it, because the deck is stacked. Being nice won't do it. Being smart won't do it. Being idealistic won't do it. If a president takes it too far in resisting the entrenched financial powers that be, they will destroy him...either at the polls...or in a much more personal way. They will not stop at killing him. He will not be allowed to change the status quo beyond a certain very limited point, and the status quo is based upon maintaining the world's most enormous military expenditures and occupying foreign lands with American forces and practicing imperialism. It's also based on perpetual war (at some level). It's also based on a perpetual illegal drug trade achieved simply by MAKING various drugs illegal, AND a simultaneous war that is waged on that drug trade.

All these things are damaging and counterproductive, but they make huge profits for a few people who are among the top elite, so they continue.

Genie, you are quite right about how people are programmed by Fox to believe certain things. They are programmed by CNN to believe certain things too, but somewhat different things. They are programmed by all the networks...and further to that...they are programmed to fight amongst themselves as some are convinced they are "liberals" and some are convinced they are "conservatives"...labels which will forever divide them and provoke conflict. All the mass media outlets are partly to blame for that situation. Fox is probably the worst of them, but not alone in creating the terrible disunity and dissension in the USA. They all promote disunity constantly. They thrive upon it. It makes for good "news", and that pulls in viewers, and that pleases the sponsors.

If people stopped tuning in, I mean if MILLIONS of people stopped tuning in, their little profit-driven propaganda game would be over, and their mass media outlets would collapse. I don't tune in to the mass broadcast media. I read.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Janie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 10:41 PM

Interesting that this thread has run to 182 posts so far, while Stilly's Lessig thread only garnered 10 responses.

The Lessig lecture is more germaine, in my very humble opinion, to this election in particular, and politics in the USA in general, than anything I have heard, read, or seen thus far. But that is only my opinion, just as biased, I am sure as is anyone else's.

The video is NOT about childhood obesity, btw. It strikes me as a quite cogent and non-partisan comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 11:16 PM

The video is NOT about childhood obesity, btw.

No, but the BS about the corn syrup kind of taints the rest.

Not that I am a fan of corn syrup or subsidies. But if you eat too many calories and exercise too little you are going to get fat, whether the calories come from corn syrup or sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Janie
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 12:05 AM

Not the most effective "hook,", I agree. Still, some significant points to ponder.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:31 AM

Bill D.: So your view is, when the Democrats are in power, the Republicans should bend to their view (that's compromise, right?), but when the Republicans are in power, the Republicans are expected to bend to the Democrat's view? I don't think so.

JTS: The Democrats took one of the largest drubbings iin political history because they tried to pass legislation that was abohorant to the majority of the voters. Simple as that.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 10:29 AM

You don't think so, Douggie?

You're hallf right- you don'think, period.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

BillD,

"See? Compromise and bipartisan MEANS "do it our way"."

I guess the Republicans are using THE SAME STANDARDS that the Democrats did the last two years in Congress. I note NO effort to complain when the Democrats acted the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

You should probably watch the entire Lessig video, Jack. It's about a great deal more than corn syrup, and it describes the USA's governmental problem perfectly. It will only take 18 minutues of your life to watch the whole video.

(I am not attacking YOU personally in making this post, Jack. Okay? I'm discussing an interesting video that Stilly linked to, and suggesting it's worth watching. That's my concern. I would like as many people to watch that video as possibly can. That video explains exactly why and how your goverment is NOT representing the people any longer, but is representing its primary funding sources who are most definitely NOT "the people"...they are a consortium of major corporations and major banks who have common interests: dergegulation, maintenance of tariffs, maintenance of subsidies to certain agricultural and other industries, maximization of their profits, control of ongoing legislation in Congress. You have "the best government money can buy", regardless of who is put in office.)

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM

TOday's headlines are all on about how the growth in employment is faster than expected.

Go figger.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:55 PM

"...because they tried to pass legislation that was abohorant to the majority of the voters. Simple as that.

And THAT is total nonsense. You mistake what the "majority of the voters" wanted or cared about for the distortions and outright lies they were FED by Fox 'News' and right-wing scare tactics-- "death panels" "Fascists" "Birthers" "More taxes".etc. ad nauseum

The REAL polls during and right after the health care debate showed that the MAJORITY wanted MORE health care and the "public option". Once the Republicans got the whole bill watered down, and then refused to vote for their own paltry, watered down version, they quoted the polls that showed most voters were not happy with the bill **as passed**. This does NOT indicate they didn't want "Obamacare", but that they didn't see many real benefits.

Great political tactics by the Republicans, but sleazy treatment of the public! They flat **LIED** about what effect health care legislation would have on the budget in order to keep their HMO organization contributors happy!
I can deal with simple disagreements about how things work and the best procedures...etc...but I DESPISE conscious lies & distortions for political and monetary gain by 'the powers that be'.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce- "I guess the Republicans are using THE SAME STANDARDS that the Democrats did the last two years in Congress. I note NO effort to complain when the Democrats acted the same.

Do you really have NO other argument form? And there is simply NO comparison of the two parties legislative tactics....so far! The Democrats did NOT refuse to compromise and did NOT lie about the other side's positions....but perhaps they should have, seeing how it works! ...nawwww...they wouldn't have been good at it. Real deceit and believing IN your own deceit as a standard procedure take practice & commitment....and leadership from the Karl Roves and Glen Becks and Newt Gingrichs...all funneled thru a 'fair & balanced' "news" organization.

What I hope is that my party, win or lose, does NOT stray into really obnoxious lies and scams, but DOES make fair but clever use of the rules, as they did with health care. (G.W. just used signing statements and interim appointments of judges...etc..to cram thru anything he (or maybe Cheney) wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:27 PM

You should probably watch the entire Lessig video, Jack. It's about a great deal more than corn syrup, and it describes the USA's governmental problem perfectly. It will only take 18 minutues of your life to watch the whole video.

Hawk, you are coming across as more and more smug and preachy. In fact I did watch the whole video. After the first 5 minutes of poorly presented BS, I watched the remaining 13 minutes out of respect for Kat and Janie and others who said it was important. My feedback to Lessig, if he were to ask for it would be, "The next time you give the lecture, leave out the BS, because the BS make you look, put politely, less than learned."

Please note Little Hawk that I did not ask for a lecture from you about how I should spend "18 minutues of" my life. I feel that I am very capable of deciding that for myself. On the other hand if you have any opinions on the merits of specific points of the talk I would be happy to discuss them with you as an equal as I tried to do with the point about the corn syrup.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:29 PM

Bruce is just lying until something sticks. Doug may actually be in the dark.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:41 PM

JtS,

If you insist on call9ing ME a liar, then please specify the lie and the supporting facts from some respectable source- YOU do not qualify as respectable.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM

>>>BillD,

"See? Compromise and bipartisan MEANS "do it our way"."

I guess the Republicans are using THE SAME STANDARDS that the Democrats did the last two years in Congress. I note NO effort to complain when the Democrats acted the same. <<<

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:46 PM

Sorry, Jack

That was true- and YOU present no indication of ANY evidence to the contrary-

So you may apologize to me for you being such a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:49 PM

Okay, you watched the whole thing, Jack. Great. ;-) What points did you like in it, and which did you not like? I found nothing to object to in the entire video, and it dovetails with a lot of other stuff I've been reading. I think the point about the corn syrup is absolutely correct and pertinent. Have you seen "Food Inc."? If so, what did you think of it? And how about "Capitalism - A Love Story"?

"Please note Little Hawk that I did not ask for a lecture from you..."

Jack, if I waited for other people to ask, I would probably wait for an eternity and never get to say anything at all here on this forum. I talk here for the same reason you or anyone else does...simply because I enjoy expressing myself and voicing my thoughts. It gives me something to do in what is obviously...free time! As usual, you are responding to what I say in very ill humour, taking some sort of personal offense from it, assuming I'm sneering at you or putting you down in some way, and I can only ....shrug....

I am not here to fight with you about your ruffled feelings. I am not your enemy in any way. I'm simply here to discuss politics. You'll note that I treat DougR decently, even though I disagree with virtually EVERYTHING he says and believes. I treat him decently because he's human.

You have a choice in front of you, Jack. You can choose to be friendly and constructive and not take personal offense all the time with anyone who disagrees with you on any tiniest point... or you can choose to fight with people. I choose to be friendly and constructive. It requires a lot less energy expenditure and it keeps me from ruining my own state of mind and alienating people.

There are two people on this thread who habitually fight with other posters, flare up over stuff, and get really sarcastic and nasty and insulting with anyone who disagrees with them about anything. They clearly come here mainly to vent their anger.

I'm not one of them, Jack. I won't name who they are, but think about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

Little Hawk, I have found none of your recent comments to me, including this most recent lecture, to be friendly or constructive.

YOU have a choice, continue to behave as you have been, and have me call you on it. Or stop lecturing people and stick to the topic.

I don't care either way. I am not going to change my behavior.

And by the way the point he makes about corn syrup is indeed BS, I did watch Food Inc. Twice! Thank you very much. I have been concerned about corn subsidies ever since I became a US tax payer 12 years ago. I even spoke to you in person about my complaints about them, when discussing Carol's corn allergies, about 8 years ago, about what 6 years before food inc was released? That is one of the reasons I find this new attitude of yours a little off putting.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: pdq
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:29 PM

"You have a choice in front of you, Jack. You can choose to be friendly and constructive and not take personal offense all the time with anyone who disagrees with you on any tiniest point... or you can choose to fight with people." ~ Birdfeathers

Many other people need to take that statement to heart too.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:39 PM

For me here is the bottom line (good or bad) the bullshit bickering between the parties has left main street in shambles. I don't know how it is where anyone else lives, but in my small town people who have worked their entire life are at risk of losing their homes. I see wall street and the bankers doing really good, along with corporations like Halliburton ... so now there are some new folks elected fine with me. I wait to see something positive to happen, it is going to take a lot more than talk. Jump in the water is fine because me and most independent guys are going to look for some results and hold anyone accountable that doesn't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 04:33 PM

That was 200 and no-one claimed it!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:01 PM

>>in my small town people who have worked their entire life are at risk of losing their homes.<<<

And the Republican want to go back to exactly the same policies that put your friends in that position.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:24 PM

I pray you are not right Jack, But I suspect you are correct. All the policies I have seen for so many years are stacked against the small guy. Whenever one tries to do something for the small guy, it gets squashed. But that has been going on forever sadly ... I don't have any answers just to hold everyone accountable that is what I would ask, forget parties, hold everyone accountable .. I guess that is all we can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 05:38 PM

They are seriously trying to reverse restrictions on risky investments and on consumer protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 09:47 PM

"...abohorant (sic) to the majority of voters."

Doug, don't you ever take off your ideological blinders?

President Obama pointed out that if the unemployment rate had been, say 5%, instead of 9.6%, voters would have been much more receptive to his other programs.

Exactly why do you think this is not true?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:13 AM

Ron: do you ever take yours off?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:14 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:19 AM

Sorry, Ron, I didn't address your statement: "President Obama pointed out that if (key word) the unemployment rate had been, say 5%, instead of 8.6%, voters would have been much more receptive to his other programs."

But the unemployment rate WAS NOT, say, 5%, it WAS 9.6% so that's a meaningless statement.

Old Texas saying: The dog would have caught the rabbit if he hadn't stopped to pee. If, is a mighty, mighty word.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:48 AM

Well, Dougie... Seems that you and the Repubs are into fake-economic theories... I mean, it's one rthing to start a PR BIGASS LIE campaign sayin' that the stimulus didn't work and I'm sure that makes ya'll fell all warm and fuzzy all over but it doesn't change the fact that it is a BIGASS LIE...

The other BIGASS LIE is that giving more tax breaks to the rich will produce jobs... The rich are drowning in cash right now and have no interest in creating jobs...

So here you are with not one BIGASS LIE but two BIGASS LIES that fly in the face of what non-flat-earth economists are telling US what we need to do to create jobs (or not create jobs) that you and yer buddies want to build job-creation around???

Might as well go back to using leeches as a medical treatment...

You guys are running on empty in terms of basic understanding how the economy works...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:27 AM

What planet is this guy from?

'There are no rich,' Senator-elect Rand Paul claims

By David Edwards
Friday, November 5th, 2010 -- 11:48 am

Following his big win in Tuesday's midterm elections, Senator-elect Rand Paul explained his economic philosophy in about 30 seconds during a CNN interview, claiming he wants to shield the wealthiest Americans from paying higher taxes -- in the name of protecting the working class.

"I would say that [Democrats] must be in favor of a second American depression, because if you raise taxes to that consequence, that's what will happen in this country," Paul told CNN host Wolf Blitzer.

"What if they just raised taxes on the richest, those making more than 250,000 dollars a year?" Blitzer asked.

"Well, the thing is, we're all interconnected. There are no rich. There are no middle class. There are no poor," Paul explained. "You remember a few years ago, when they tried to tax the yachts, that didn't work."

"You know who lost their jobs?" he continued. "The people making the boats, the guys making 50,000 and 60,000 dollars a year lost their jobs. We all either work for rich people or we sell stuff to rich people. So just punishing rich people is as bad for the economy as punishing anyone. Let's not punish anyone. Let's keep taxes low and let's cut spending."

Defense of rich Americans and wealthy corporations is a reoccurring theme with Paul. In the midst of the Gulf oil spill last may, Paul argued that criticism of BP was "un-American."

"Rand Paul's got a plan to fix the economy: we just need to stop punishing all the sad, pathetic yacht-owners," observed Julianne Escobedo Shepherd at Alternet. "In one short, circular statement made to CNN's Wolf Blitzer Wednesday night, the Kentucky Senator-elect has summed up the right wing's economic views as succinctly as a one-panel cartoon."

In Paul's view, working class Americans must make in the neighborhood of $50,000 or $60,000. He seems to be unaware that 17 percent of the population in his home state are living below the poverty level of only $22,050 for a family of four.

Jed Lewison at Daily Kos summed up Paul's logic in another way: "Rich people are the backbone of our economy because they are the only people who buy things and create jobs. Therefore we should cut their taxes and cut spending on everything else."

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:49 AM

Yeah, great, Rand Paul - yet another lunatic now in a place where he can cause havoc & considerqble real harm.

Sure is somethin' to be proud of, ain't it?

Amerika- greatest country in the world & all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 10:53 AM

Quoth Douggie-boy: But the unemployment rate WAS NOT, say, 5%, it WAS 9.6% so that's a meaningless statement.

Yup, genius, except the unemployment rate is down to Bush & the BuShites. Isn't Obama that's responsible for the mess created over 30 years of Republican mismamagement.

See the "astute take" thread. Douggie's proud that he's whacked himself in the balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:24 PM

Rand Paul is quite correct, the ultra rich can quite legally avoid tax....they dont need to worry about some small rise in the taxation rate.

Under this system, they are like the banks....they simply cannot be allowed to fail no matter how unfair that may be

Revenue and growth is garnered fron the poor and middle class who are imprisoned in the taxation system....they are the ones who's testicles have not only been whacked, but amputated into the bargain, as a sacrifice to Global Capitalism!

Isn't satire a sly and devious beast?....It always comes back to bite you on the balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 01:28 PM

`Isn't satire a sly and devious beast?....It always comes back to bite you on the balls.`

Geeze. Usually I have to pay for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:11 PM

>>>Rand Paul is quite correct, the ultra rich can quite legally avoid tax....they dont need to worry about some small rise in the taxation rate.<<<

Yes of course, that makes sense.

Then he should have no trouble passing their small rise in the taxation rate, right?

LOL

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:32 PM

Yes thats right Jack, but it doesn't really help our solvency problem......:0(


LOL! 999......and that doesn't happen very often....good to see you B!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:39 PM

The only way for Obama to climb out of the hole he is in is to run as FDR.
What is needed now is a Ferdinand J. Pecora to take on the banksters many of whom should be in jail.

The disaster is mainly for the so-called "blue dogs". The Dems will need to shore up their true base. This could happen.

If Boehner and McConnell close down the government if they don't repeal health care,
then Obama has a good chance of being re-elected. Remember what happened when Newt tried that.

Gridlock is something that Americans seem to vote for in most elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:45 PM

It`s great seeing you, Ake. Trust things are well and that life is excellent for you. I will write soon and let you know what`s happening here.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 02:53 PM

Obama, will beat anyone the Republicans look likely to nominate today. Keep in mind that the nominee has to please the Tea Party and the Republican Money base.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 04:45 PM

Seems to me that the Tea Party are a bigger threat to Republican vote tallies than Democratic vote tallies, aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:30 PM

The point is, Doug--and you continue your virtually 100% record of missing the point---congratulations on that---is that the disastrous economy swamped all other considerations in the elections this year.

Based on historical precedent--and that's all we have to go on--when the economy is not such a basket case, voters feel ready to deal with other issues.

Now, do you deny this?   Yes or no? No meaningless tome necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 05:35 PM

Well, the Tea Party is the reddest of the rednecks, LH... They run 100% on emotion so, yeah, gonna be kinda hard reeling them in since they are really not all that connected with reality... Ahhhh, not that the rest of the Repubs are...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 06:17 PM

I think it should be considered that the Tea Party--stupid as I think many of their candidates are--are a response to what some folks consider to be a disenfranchisement of themselves by what they see as corruption in government. I applaud them for having the cajones to `stand up and be counted`, but I hiss or boo because they seem to be shills for other interests.

I find threads about political or religious stuff to be very partisan. Much like threads about UK music. It`s like falling off the wall of a snake pit. They`re interesting to look at until you meet them up close and personal. It`s then you realize the person you`re meeting is just like you--except different.

Keep well, yàll.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: pdq
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:46 PM

Just for the recod, the Tea Party is not a political party in the same was that the Democratic and Republinac parties are.

The Tea Party is a grassroots movement and it has run no candidates.

One lady is considered the leader, but most Tea Party supportes have probably never heard of her...


"...Jenny Beth Martin found her voice, and has given it to a movement profoundly unhappy with Congress, the president and the general direction of life in the United States.

In the past year, her celebrity has taken her to Washington, New York, Philadelphia and other places where people want to see one of the few luminaries of a movement that prides itself on its lack of stars. So she books her flights, a surprised traveler.

"I never intended this," she said recently. "I guess I just raise my hand too often and volunteer constantly."

Martin may owe CNBC commentator Rick Santelli a big thank you. On Feb. 19, 2009, he stood on the floor of the Chicago Board of Trade and blasted Obama's mortgage bailout plan. "The government," he yelled, "is promoting bad behavior!" Then, with a nod to U.S. history, Santelli said he should host a "Chicago tea party."

Tea party. In suburban Atlanta, Martin heard that phrase and felt something stir. She got busy the next day, organizing Atlanta's first tea party protest. On Feb. 27, Martin and others stood in the rain outside the Georgia Capitol with signs reading "Repeal or Retire," a message to Congress to drop the economic stimulus plan.

Martin stepped up her e-mails and phone calls, sharing her belief. She and others planned a protest for April 15, the national deadline for filing income taxes. Someone, Martin isn't sure who, coined the name "Tea Party Patriots." In June she incorporated the group as a nonprofit political action organization. She is its CEO.

Its principles, she said, are simple. It wants the government to embrace fiscal responsibility, calls for a constitutionally limited government and urges free-market economics. An umbrella organization, it now claims 1,800 chapters with 15 million members."

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 09:11 PM

Just for the record, the Tea Party is not a grassroots movement in that hundreds of millions of dollars from health insurance company (and others) were used in organizing it...

Throw in an entire so-called new network (FOX) and this is no more a grassroots organization than is the NRA or Halliburton...

So please quit with that mythology 'cause that dog don't hunt except in Republican circle-jerks...

Follow the money...

Google up Dick Armey or FreedomWorks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:59 AM

The Tea Party "membership" is all the people who voted for George Bush and were taken in by his bullshit. The ones who were very pissed off and disheartened in 2006.

Some how someone (Dick Army, Sarah Palin and others) convinced them to take out their anger on the Republican Party by supporting wait for it.......the Republican party.

But wait, by calling themselves The Tea Party instead of their proper name the wing nut wing of the Republican Party, they get to say and do all kinds of mean and nasty and ugly things to attack Democrats one step removed from the Republicans to stir up the base so that the Republicans who may be called Republicans can act more sanely and try to appeal to the middle. Already nutjobs like Michelle Bachman are trying to act sane, though the strain of it shows in her facial expressions.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:20 AM

I keep trying to explain that "fiscal responsibility" will give the USA a recession that will make the 30s look like a picnic.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 08:27 AM

No, not really, Rich...

Right now there are piles and piles of unused, uninvested cash just sittin' in the vaults of rich people and the Fortune 500 companies... The entire concept behind "economic growth" and the GNP is to get cash into circulation but this cash sits idle... Tax increases would do two things: First, it would get that cash back into circulation where cash belongs and second, it would reduce the deficit... That is what fiscal responsibility look like... Of course, the flat-earth Repubs don't see it that way but then again, look who funded their campaigns...

Duhhhhhhhhhhh???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:37 AM

Bobert is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 10:01 AM

My assumption is that "fiscal responsibility" is dogwhistle for "spending cuts".

Tax yes, but spendspendspend. The US desperately needs Keynesian reflation NOW. Get those economic multipliers working!

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 10:21 AM

Yes, Keynesian "relation" is also desperately needed and now... Most leading economists said during the stimulus debate that the amount was too small to get the job done... I agree... They said that $1T was the amount it would take yet Obama had to compromise at $700B... That was irresponsible... Hey, putting another $300B into infrastructure and education will pay dividends down the road... Actually, these expenditures are way past due...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:10 AM

Richard, I actually think that Keynes has helped us as much as he can.

We are not going to get sustainable growth from short term high spending. I would keep spending about where it is now, claw back the money the rich people are hoarding and more importantly to give them tax incentives to spend it.

We also need to invest in infrastructure and education.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM

You need to end the wars and bring your soldiers home and cut military spending in half.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:35 PM

Yeah, LH, but knowing the military/industrialists they'll just spill a few million $$$ here and there on the right Congressmen and next thing ya' know there won't be one dime saved from ending the wars... Of course, the story will be that we now need to restock all the stuff that got blown up and every newly elected Tea Partier will vote for more DoD $$$...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 12:40 PM

Do you remember, Bobert, when the Soviet Union collapsed and the Cold War ended? We were told by our governments and media that a "peace dividend" would result, and we'd all be more prosperous.

Ha!

No peace dividend came. What we got was wars in the former Yugoslavia, quickly followed by a world war against Muslim extremism that appears now to be a world war which has no forseeable end. That's what they wanted, just like in "1984"...a war with no geographical center and no forseeable end. That permits the military-industrial complex to go on doing what it loves to do and spending our children's inheritance.

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:02 PM

>>Do you remember, Bobert, when the Soviet Union collapsed and the Cold War ended? We were told by our governments and media that a "peace dividend" would result, and we'd all be more prosperous.<<

It was Cheney and Defense Secretary who first promised that Piece dividend then when running for VP he used Kerry's vote for his (Cheney's) plan to "prove" that Kerry was soft on defense.

How screwed up is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 01:03 PM

To quote an economic theorist from Chile, growth is not necessarily development. In many ways the US risks being an underdeveloped country.

If Obama doesn't explain why the US is in Afghanistan, Iraq and sending missiles to
Pakistan, it will be all over for him at the next election.

There is kind of an axiom here. Politicians who know how to get elected, don't necessarily know how to govern. One is sales, the other is executive talents.

So far, the Dems have forsaken their original message. 1. Help for the working and middle class. 2. Public education (not private schools). 3. Strengthening the power of government regulations for environmental issues as well as financial. 4. Providing a safety net for those who are hurt by unemployment and crooked bank transactions (underwater mortgages). 5. Making the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. 6. Keeping Separation of Church and State in tact. 7. Providing government jobs to ease unemployment (WPA, CCC etc.)

Notice I said "message". There has to be a clear vision for the Dems, not a watered down appeasement to the Repubs. The Dems message now is garbled.

The Repubs have no vision. They are pure reactionaries.