BS: Credit card alert

Subject: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 05:57 PM

Beer just sent me an e... if you have a card with a chip, check this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 06:39 PM

Is the RFID the same as a chip? I'm not sure that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Slag
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 07:20 PM

A bit of old news, I'm afraid. When I first heard about this I immediately saw the remedy. I tore off a sheet of aluminum foil and folded it up into a rectangle just larger than a dollar bill. and put it in my wallet ( a three-fold ). Problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 07:21 PM

At the end of the newscast they show a symbol that is supposed to be on all credit cards that include the RFID capability. It's sort of like three short arcs emulating a "wave" coming out of an antenna. The common icon for speaker adjustment in the Startup tray (at the bottom right) in Windows usually has a speaker with two similar arcs.

Other things, like passports, probably won't be marked.

An embedded "chip" has no useful function if it can't be read without being seen, so quite probably any embedded "chip" is RFID (Radio Frequency IDentification) capable.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 07:26 PM

Slag -

I'd suggest finding out if your aluminum foil actually works by testing it. That may be inconvenient unless you have established contacts with appropriately specialized criminals.

You may have just made a larger antenna to make the card easier to read.

A proper shield would be a "lossy magnetic" material (alternate term "high reluctance"), and aluminum ain't magnetic. A high conductance material just concentrates the RF.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Slag
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 07:37 PM

Hey JohnInKansas, you may have a point. I was thinking about the chaff used to jam radar. My thinking was the a complete wrap around would be an effective shielding. I think I know someone who has a reader and will check out my theory. Stay tuned kiddies, for further updates.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 07:47 PM

I have cards with chips in them but they don't have the wave symbol or any other RF identifier - I've been looking around the web but have not, as of yet, found any information indicating that all chips are RFID.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 08:00 PM

My new VISA card does not have the symbol. But it is now out of my wallet. I don't use it except to buy gas. Or pay bills at a secure government website. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 09:40 PM

Perhaps if you just carry enough RFID credit cards jammed together in your wallet they might confuse the scanner enough to give incorrect numbers?. I think I know people who seem to be applying the theory.

A complete wrapping in conductive foil likely would work, or a metal box (something like some people use to carry their business cards) probably would provide adequate shielding for most situations.

Carrying the cards in a pocket where the scanner would have to be shoved in your face to get close enough might offer some likelihood that a scan would be more obvious, but the practicality of that would depend on clothing styles etc.

Tucking the cards in a "private area" would require a thief to "get personal" and might work for some people - but perhaps less well for some personality types.

In the video, it appears that the scanner must be within four or five inches of the card for a scan, but that may just be the kluge the demonstrator put together. Some "secure facilities" have been using RFID badges for more than ten years that are expected to be detected at "walking speed" so that the badge is read from a few feet away even if it's in your pocket, and the gate is supposed to open before you smash your face on it - but they don't always work if you walk a little too briskly. The scanners for such "long range" detection would likely be difficult to replicate in an inconspicuous portable package.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 10 - 09:46 PM

Some Aussie credits cards now have a visible 'chip' on them which looks coppery with six or eight contract pads. These are slid into the reader, looks like they make physical electrical contact - doubt these are RFIDs.

The guy in teh article owns a business which sells cute little credit card carry boxes - wonder why he conned the news mob into giving free advertising?

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 04:49 AM

The popular EM shielding material for about the past 40 decades, for applications requiring the maximum shielding effectiveness, is a material call mu-Metal. (mu = the greek letter µ is the symbol fairly universally used for magnetic permeability).

You can get the specification Here.

A minor difficulty is that for best properties it needs to be fully annealed after any cutting and forming, and for best results the annealing requires a hydrogen furnace with both controlled heating and cooling rates. Locating a processor capable of the needed precision sheetmetal handling and processing may be somewhat difficult, unless you have very good contacts within the electromagnetic manufacturing industry.

While almost anyone can make a suitable "tin-foil hat," your truly effective mu-Metal hat may require significant effort and expense, so you should be quite sure of the fit before the seams are closed and final processing is done.

Also be aware that "accidents" that deform the hat may reduce the permeability somewhat below optimum, although with reasonable care in handling the wear and tear of daily use should not have more than minor effect on the protection achieved. As the material is quite dense, and thin parts are sufficient for the EM protection required, separate protection using other materials of lesser density would be preferable if "impact resistance" is also required (to withstand blunt force trauma in the event of something like an alien capture).

Due to limitations on the sheet sizes available, it would be a good idea to order at least two full sheets of mu-Metal for any application such as "full body shielding" if you can negotiate a price reduction based on quantity ordering.

There are other materials claiming "nearly the same" performance as mu-Metal, but the detailed specifications for all of the ones I've found are somewhat inferior, although some of the alternates may offer fabrication process advantages permitting performance similar to what one might get with mu-Metal poorly processed, at a lower fabrication cost.

A possible alternate material might be Giron. Material purchase cost probably is similar to the preferred mu-Metal, but less post-forming processing may be required, which could result in less total cost for your hat.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 11:54 AM

I've seen several steel or steel-mesh wallets advertised. Would they do the trick?

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 11:58 AM

Act like an antenna?

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 12:15 PM

No, like a shield, silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 12:19 PM

A shield? Like chain mail? But, aren't the waves like teeny little swords that would go right through?

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 12:59 PM

In the interests of greater efficiency and to avoid having a scattered mind, I have decided to compartmentalize my worrying and worry about different things on different days, as follows:

1. On Mondays I will worry about people reading my credit cards.
2. On Tuesdays I will worry about gay bashing and gay marriage.
3. On Wednesdays I will worry about anti-Semitism.
4. On Thursdays I will worry about Obama, North Korea, and Iran.
5. On Fridays I will worry about killer bees, termites, and bed bugs.
6. On Saturdays I will worrry about pit bulls.
7. On Sundays I will worring about aging and illness.

It's a full life! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 03:00 PM

"Resistant to corrosive materials such as salts, acids, and seawater, the tightly woven steel also passively resists radio-frequency hacking--the latest identity theft technique that attempts to scan newer credit cards."

From here.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 04:00 PM

7. On Sundays I will worring about aging and illness.

Not a good idea. Especially for a man of your age.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: open mike
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 04:25 PM

i do not see the chip on anything i have
but i have heard that the magnetic strips
can be damaged if they touch each other
so that you should not put them together
in your pocket wallet or purse...if you
do you should make sure the strips are
away from each other...

that reminds me of a funny thing a cashier
said to me once when giving directions for
how to position a card in the card reader..

i do believe that the exact words were:
"strip down and facing forward" which
caused a startled reaction from both of us!!

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: open mike
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 04:37 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification

music content: ---->>>>
the technology for this is based on the same principal that
the Theramin musical instrument is based on! (unknown that this
began as a spy device)

In 1945 Léon Theremin invented an espionage tool for the Soviet Union which retransmitted incident radio waves with audio information. Sound waves vibrated a diaphragm which slightly altered the shape of the resonator, which modulated the reflected radio frequency. Even though this device was a covert listening device, not an identification tag, it is considered to be a predecessor of RFID technology, because it was likewise passive, being energized and activated by electromagnetic waves from an outside source.[1]

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 06:23 PM

open mike -

The only connection between the Theremin spy tool and the Theremin musical instrument is that they were both associated with people named "Theremin." I'd have to check very old references to verify that it's the same Theremin person in both cases, although that's not really critical information. The date for the spy device, and what I recall about the appearance of the musical device suggest that it probably was the same person.

The operating principles of the two devices are significantly different. I suspect you may be too young to have built one of the musical ones when they were first a fad.

The spy tool mentioned in the Wiki article is only an example of a first use of absorbed and retransmitted rf power, and is almost extraneous to the discussion that follows.

The link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification) is a good one, and does provide some information, including a few comments on shielding of RFID devices, but may be most notable as one of the longest articles at Wiki (26 full screens on my monitor). You and I probably will be the only ones here to read the whole thing(?).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 06:23 PM

I believe, gnu, that there's no problem that can't be made quite a bit worse by obsessing and agonizing over it during every waking hour... ;-) Getting infuriated or outraged does wonders too. Pitbulls, for example....I know people who wait eagerly for the next person they can rave to in outrage about how awful pit bulls are, how they must be made completely illegal, and how something must be done about them! The media is God to such people.

Listening to such people go on and on about the terrorism practiced by pit bulls and pit bull owners is almost as much fun as rolling around naked in a cactus field or arguing with an angry cop... ;-)

Miserly loves company, and so does outrage.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 06:24 PM

And there goes another damn typo. "miserly" should have been "misery". My fingers just can't keep up with my mind. (sigh)

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 06:35 PM

Well, thank you for all this info and humour - the latter prize goes to LH!

However, I know my card has a chip. So if someone could tell me in words of one syllable, or less, what I really need to do....

Even my resident newshound had not heard of this!

OR do I ask Beer on Friday?

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Slag
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 07:12 PM

Maybe my Alcoa armor is inadequate. How about I just get rid of the damn cards and not buy anything I can't pay for with cash.

LH! And I thought I had worries!

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 07:28 PM

A typo, LH? OMG... I must now sic my pit bull on you.

LH... "Getting infuriated or outraged does wonders too."

Especially over typos. I tend to ignore tham as everybody nows wat I ment when my mind didn't make my fingers work properly. It happens when we get older.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Beer
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 08:30 PM

I'll make you up some cards Dorthy without chips and have them ready for you Friday evening at the Coffee House. Now for you secret service members or those on the outside looking in, I'm just kiddin.
ad.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: 8_Pints
Date: 06 Dec 10 - 09:26 PM

RFID cards are predominently a US initiative.

The European (EMV) chip cards are contact based and will not respond to the scanning equipment shown in the newsreel.

In the UK the only radio based cards I am aware of are certain Barclays and Oyster cards.

Secret keys are embedded within both types of card that are used to handshake with the terminals that they connect to, but neither respond to commands to export these values.

I shall not be overly worried about this threat.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:15 AM

And there goes another damn typo. "miserly" should have been "misery".

Don't feel bad LH. You may have "accidentally" stated a real truth.

If miserly didn't love company the Republican party would be an entirely different thing today, wouldn't it?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 12:52 PM

Heh! ;-) Yeah, I guess so.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:06 PM

Some bus passes are using oyster type technology, I discovered last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:52 PM

Does it surpass human technology?

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 04:58 PM

RFID cards are predominently a US initiative

Use of RFID for credit cards seems to be mainly (for now) a US thing, but there are many other uses for the method, for shipping, stocking, and other inventory control purposes, and for access identification for places where public entry is limited. A concern of some is that it isn't always obvious when the devices are used for some of the more subtle purposes.

The Wiki article already linked implies significant use in several places other than the US, that might not come readily to mind except among the smaller groups of people who use them. A particular kind of use in lots of places is described within the same article at Toll Roads, although several other "popular" ones are mentioned elsewhere in the article.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 05:56 PM

More things to worry about...

1. Bad breath!!! Do you offend without knowing?

2. Body odor!!! (see #1 above...)

3. Bad hair day!!! (We all have those now and then, unless we're bald.)

4. "They just don't like me!" (This thought troubles many people even if they are quite successful. In fact, Emperor Nero used to lose sleep over this very concern.)

5. "Am I going to Hell???" Cheer up! You may already be there, and you just didn't realize it. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 05:58 PM

Some bus passes are using oyster type technology, I discovered last week.

Standard format for all stored fare tickets. Naturally they waited for Oyster to be a success before bringing out a standard that wasn't compatible.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: GUEST,Ms Penelope Rutledge
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 06:10 PM

My good man, oysters have been a success for thousands of years. The Romans and Egyptians used to eat them with gusto, you know.

* PR

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 06:28 PM

And pesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 06:32 PM

And of course the 'pet chips' use RFID tech.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 08:24 PM

Pet chips could be used to allow access to a pet door while keeping out vermin. Useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: open mike
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 11:01 PM

hmmm..while i did not read the whole thing, i was intrigued by the possible musical connection of radio waves..i have seen a few bands that employ the theramin device these days....some people (such as my
self) did not catch it first time around...

i have had bad experiences with the scanners/viewers at toll booths..
i have had 2 traffic tickets rec'd by a san francisco area toll booth
accusing me of driving thru without paying...once i was no where near the area, and the lic. # of the car shown on the (poor resolution) photo was obviously not mine, the other time i had stopped to get my purse out of the trunk and paid the toll, even had a receipt to show for the transaction, but still was ticketed...so i would not trust the technology that the pass thru cards use...there are some lanes designed for card holders...and they can drive right thru. presumably they have some sort of card that can be read from outside their car as
they pass by...,

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: gnu
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:23 AM

I got en e with the subject "UK Credit Crunch Woresens" and the following, captioned, "Somebody has to pay for the wedding."

Subject: RE: BS: Credit card alert
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 10 - 11:38 AM

Yes John, I have increased the signal of many an antenna with aluminum foil.

Lead foil is not very healthy to handle.