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On not knowing chords - and not helping
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Tim Leaning Date: 23 Dec 10 - 11:07 PM Hey bwm play it 3.. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:40 PM OMG - I started a serious discussion, and they took me seriously! I'm not sure which is worse.... I'll get me hat... OK The Wikipedia article is highly confusing - as since 'modern music' is all equally tempered, it mungles in things that are misleading by talking about 'obsolete' Pythagorean theory amongst 'equal' theory (misleading, because it gives the deluded impression that the older stuff still means something, when that philosophy was all thrown out the window when 'equal' was adopted!), music theory is now highly modified due to adoption of the modern equal temperament (and the total discarding of all previous philosophies!). 'Equal' is - somewhat like the metric measuring system totally replacing the Imperial system, - a new theoretical philosophy which threw out TOTALLY all the previous junk and started with the same known note names, and then MOVED the frequencies of the relative pitches of the various notes away from where the previous philosophies computed them to be, to where the new philosophy computed them to be. The relative notes are no longer simple Pythagorean ratios. Pythagoras is dead, Jim, Kaput, Totally. End of story. The Wiki article tends towards the 'nonsense mystical' presentation of someone who is confused and not really understanding the theory and developmental history of the theory. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guitars - I don't actually play, but have a couple - acoustic and electric, and have messed around... but if it is built in equal temperament, you can do nothing to change any of the fretted notes - except if you can 'bend them' in a subtle way, by stretching the strings with extra downwards or sideways pressure - you can only increase the pitches this way. If you have a 'wobble lever' as per some electric guitars, you can muck about quite a bit :-) . Now you CAN tune the open strings to be 'equal' or 'just' or 'whatever' temperament you want relative to each other, but then you merely have a melange of conflicting temperaments. Some may like the resultant sound, some will not. Just don't pretend that you know what you are talking about when you are ~~~~~~~~~~~~ The 'major and minor' semitones (also now preferentially called greater and lesser to stop the already displayed confusion!) only mean anything precise in a very limited area of Music Theory (not all the rubbish that some mystically heap upon the terms), for practical (and pragmatic purposes) they are theoretically identical in equal temperament, by definition, as stated before, and most especially MUST BE in equal temperament - they CAN be different in other temperaments! But you can't have BOTH temperaments on the same instrument, unless it is built to have them - with separate 'noise making buttons/levers' for each. Interesting, some older keyboard instruments were built so as to have the options of the different 'alternate pitches' for a 'note' when the instrument was in an 'unequal' temperament, so that say a Bb or A# could have different actual pitches so as to fit in with the different relative just scales on the same instrument. This was found to be an impractical nightmare, not only for playing, but tuning (physical instruments DRIFT - which loses the wanted subtleties anyway!), so thus the drive to 'equal temperament', which while it sacrifced a few niceties, just (pardon the pun) made life simpler, especially if not playing solo, but with other instruments (which would often be in DIFFERENT preferred temperaments)! I'll just (sorry about that) leave the soapbox over there in the corner, I suspect I'll be back .... :-) |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: TheSnail Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:19 PM occasionally not occasinaly Snail Thanks for the expert help, Dick. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM You fuckin` guys don`t drink worth shit. Try some Muscatel. Bristol Cream--jaysus, spare me. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM Bristol Milk, preferably staright from the teat of a buxom dark haired 38D |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM A pint of Bristol Cream would probably liberate your lunch... |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Nick Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:47 PM Didn't have you down as a sherry drinker... |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM occasionally not occasinaly Snail, Snail I have admitted I WAS wrong. THE ONLY THING I FIND LIBERATING IS A PINT OF HARVEYS |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: TheSnail Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:00 PM Gawd, Mudcat! You try to make a silly joke and a couple of days later you're being threatened with temperamental thrushes. Still, they'll make a change from turkey. Merry Christmas Dick and try to learn to admit you're wrong occasinally. I think you'll find it liberating. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 22 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM The Thrushes , also sing, in mean tone, they are very mean about equal tempered semitones. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:48 PM happy solstice Snail, may you enjoy your christmas fayre , watch out for the thrushes, im sending them over to gobble you up |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: closet-folkie Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM It's a common method, amongst musicians, of indication the chords to a number quickly and easily - "Key of C, chords 1,4,5 and 6m" for instance, and everyone knows what's required. Thanks for sharing. It's no wonder no-one invites me to 'round to play... |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:54 AM Quarter tone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Google the above for an excellent article on quarter-tone music. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: GUEST Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:43 AM Snail, if you think it will never be 6.25 cents either in Sussex or Irelandyou've probably never been to a real white sale ;-). Tyke wrote my Guitar was a quarter of a semi tone outi.e. either tuned badly or with misplaced frets due to warping or imprecise manufacturing. There is however another method to be out of tune on a guitar: misplaced fingers of the left hand, particularly in higher positions. Some call it blues. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:15 AM "indication" Bugger! Indicating! |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:14 AM It's a common method, amongst musicians, of indication the chords to a number quickly and easily - "Key of C, chords 1,4,5 and 6m" for instance, and everyone knows what's required. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:11 AM Closet - examples below:- Key of Cmaj 1 = C 4 = F 5 = G 6m = Am Key of Gmaj 1 = G 4 = C 5 = D 6m = Em Feel free to ask any time you like. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:44 AM Hi Snail. I can't find the definition of the tuning system I was thinking of at the time - the only one I've got to hand is the nine-comma system used by Leopold Mozart, so I suppose it should be a quarter or a fifth of a semitone. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: DonMeixner Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:33 AM When someone asks for Chords/Lyrics I will supply what I know in the key I plat it in. They will already know the title as they understand it to be because they asked for it. Don |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: TheSnail Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:08 AM I must apologise. In my quote from Dolmetsch, it does say "the equal-tempered semitone equals 100 cents" so my little attempt at levity does only work for equal-tempered scales. On the other hand, it was inspired by Tyke's story about playing a guitar which as Foolestroupe points out, is constrained by its frets so perhaps I was justified. Also note that Tyke wasn't accused of playing the wrong sized intervals, he was told he was playing out of tune. Out of tune is infinitely variable. We may never know what size of semitone his critic had in mind. Dave MacKenzie Major and minor semitones refer to small intervals within the whole tone in nonequal tuning systems. Thanks Dave. I am well aware that semitones come in all sorts of sizes (see here for instance) but I had never heard the terms major and minor used in that context. A little research suggests that greater and lesser are preferred to avoid confusion with major and minor seconds, thirds etc which have a slightly different meaning. I'm still a bit confused by your "You can have a third or a half depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor." Good Soldier Schweik Snail, chords... do not have to be in equal temperament Yes, Dick, I know. I have had some fun with this software which lets you build chords by specifying the frequencies of the notes. The difference between equal temperament and just intonation is very striking. a quarter of a semitone could vary Indeed it could but it will never be 6.25 cents either in Sussex or Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 Dec 10 - 09:00 AM Bearing in mind Foolestroupe's warning, I must add that using "Pythagorean tuning" to strings of a fretted instrument is a mistake, since the frets will be "tempered" anyway. Good guitarists will estimate a corrective, or use an electronig tuning tool to achieve equal temperament. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:47 AM Foolestroupe, starting with Tyke's post of 20 Dec 10 - 07:14 AM, the whole discussion drifted away from chords into the customary joking (could be funnier though). I could mention that many guitarists tune their instrument in pure fourths, using overtone harmonics; then their G and B form a Pythagorean third. Of course, this topic has (almost) nothing to do with chord symbols. Back to the main topic, I would like to repeat what I wrote elsewhere about a chord request likely to be successful, without love's labour lost. It should include the following information:
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM "depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor" Sorting the wheat from the chaff... Firstly there are a lot of music 'in-jokes' in this thread, which you will completely miss unless you have quite a lot of Music Theory AND Music History (which is really necessary to understand Music Theory properly...) ... :-) I get the jokes... "whether the semi-tone's major or minor" (which COULD be a weak pun...) It seems that most requests 'for chords' here are for Western European Music Tunes for guitarists! If you are playing a modern commercially made standard guitar (made in the last hundred years or so), this is absolute nonsense - you will only have a preset pretuned equal tempered instrument! So it matters not whether 'major or minor' - on such an instrument, they ARE identical! That what 'equal temperament' means.... Truly, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing - it will not only lead you astray, but then you will lead others astray! :-) :-P |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Dec 10 - 04:16 AM "chords... do not have to be in equal temperament," But if you are playing with any instrument in the mix that is pretuned to equal temperament, you will get a horrible noise! Purely vocal, or instruments like a violin, which does not have pre-tuned (built like a guitar) fixed relative pitches will work - as can a skillful player in allegedly 'fixed' instruments that be 'blown to pitch', such as some wind instruments, etc |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Genie Date: 22 Dec 10 - 12:30 AM Exactly. The composer can designate the harmonies via specifying chords and people who choose to different arrangements can modify the chord sequence. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: s&r Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:38 PM Works both ways really - if you add harmonies you imply or play some chords; if you add chords you imply or play harmonies. Stu |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Genie Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:56 PM A tune doesn't have chords unless harmony is involved, and different harmonies involve/constitute different chords. It can be frustrating to have a preferred harmony for a song and not be able to use it because the lead instrumentalist is using chords that don't work with it. (The arrangement of "Amazing Grace" that's in the UU hymnal comes to mind for me.) If you ask "What are the chords for" a particular song and you get several different opinions, you can play around with them and see which ones work with the instrumental riffs and harmonies you prefer. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Tootler Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:54 PM If I write a tune, I will sometimes supply chords and sometimes not. If I don't well others are free to put in what chords they think are appropriate. If I do supply chords, my attitude is that they are suggestions and others are free to use different chords. Quite often I write a harmony part as well and that will imply chords, so I will put them in. Even so if others want to use different chords, that's fine by me. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:41 PM Snail, chords... do not have to be in equal temperament, I hope you understand Daves comment, now. so a quarter of a semitone could vary |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Tim Leaning Date: 21 Dec 10 - 04:36 PM Read the first post. I have always received help advice and guidance to be freely given on the cat when I asked for it. Probably from some of the contributors to this thread. Its not surprising that sometimes you get a snippy reply or unhelpful comment. Mudcat isn't a "thing" its just people. I love you all. I hope u know that . ;-) x |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: DonMeixner Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM Hey CLoset Key of C Dm Em F G7 Am B C G Am Bm C D7 Em F G 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(octave) There are those who will say this is over simplification and some will say its wrong. But it should help to ex plain what a 1, 4, 5, is |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:20 PM Another point: If you do figure out the chord structure to a particularly tricky tune, please post the result of your work with lyrics and an appropriate thread title. I have done numerous searches on the Forum and saved a huge amount of time by utilizing someone else's research. Also, you may have an approximation of the song structure, but you realize it ain't quite right. Post it, and I guarantee someone will give you the proper fix in no time at all. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:12 PM "Major and minor semitones refer to small intervals within the whole tone in nonequal tuning systems. In Equal Temperament, G# and Ab, for example, are the same notew, so the distance from G to G# is the same sa the distance from G to Ab, and G# to A, and Ab to A, and so on. In other systems, however, G# and Ab are different pitches, so the distance from G (and from A) to each of these intermediate notes is larger or smaller, depending on the way the tuning system is constructed. ......... The larger intervals in these cases ...... would be major semitones and the smaller ones, minor semitones." Ross W Duffin, 'How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)' |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Dec 10 - 03:10 PM One of the problems, Jim, is that musicians often do not agree as to which chord is appropriate for a song. Sometimes the composer/author doesn't even get it right. Suggestions can be made that are helpful however and it's left to the discretion of the performer to select them. Two things: music theory is not rocket science and there is always more than one possibility for a chord. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: closet-folkie Date: 21 Dec 10 - 02:22 PM **Most** songs use the 1,4 &,5 chords, some bring in the 6m. I never understand why anyone needs to ask for the chords for those songs - they should be obvious and intuitive for anyone who has played for more than a couple of weeks. I'm not afraid to admit that I've absolutely no idea what 1,4 & 5 chords are, and I've been playing for considerably longer than 2 weeks. Remind me never to ask you. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Genie Date: 20 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM Well said, Peregrina - and Darowyn. Let's also keep in mind that we often hear a song once or twice -- on radio or in a live setting -- and are interested in learning the song before we even know its origins or who recorded it on what CD. We don't have a recording to listen to till we figure out the chords. (Plus, I think a lot of musicians, including may folkies, use modified chords and/or quite a few more than the simple 1 -4 - 5.) In fact, unless we have the basic chords to keep us on track, if we try to play or sing the melody we just heard, it's likely to morph into other tunes that we're more familiar with. This happens a lot with the folk process. If you can get hold of the lyrics and the chords to a song, your own performance of it is more likely to stay true to the 'original' -- at least as true as you would like it to be. And, as I said, finding a commercial recording of or sheet music to the song you just heard can be difficult and time-consuming -- even if you happen to be affluent enough to buy a $15 CD for every song you want to learn. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: TheSnail Date: 20 Dec 10 - 02:00 PM Good Soldier Schweik who says we were talking about an equal tempered semitone. I don't know. It wasn't me. But, if a tone had 100 cents in it(which it doesn't), a semitone would have 50 cents in it not 25. I still haven't got a clue what Dave MacKenzie was talking about. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 20 Dec 10 - 01:39 PM who says we were talking about an equal tempered semitone. I have met some very bad tempered semitones, most often when they are played together, to quote jones in dads army they dont like it , they dont like it up em at all |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: breezy Date: 20 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM I believe that if one wants to play a song written by others then it is good manners to buy their CD so that you have an accurate source to refer to. All too often we can reproduce a song but it will contain glaring inaccuracies in either melody or lyric from the original . These will detract from ones interpretation and will be noticed by the more knowledgeable and its no use claiming that you have put your own stamp on it. Note how the Furys changed Eric Bogle's songs. he forgives them because of the royalties but was not impressed by their interpretations as a host of others have used the inaccurate versions from which to learn. Thank goodness for June Tabor is what I say When I heard 'Swallows Wing ' performed by the author at a session in the ringers one May week end, I asked if he would mind if I learned it. he said 'Go ahead' I then asked if I could have the words. He said 'Yes, buy the CD'. So I gave him and tenner and held me hand out. He said he'ld post it to me. Well eventually I got me copy. He was most impressed with the way I did it . [He being Tony Truscott] He deserved the price of the CD for that one song alone because it was and still is worth it. So buy a CD even if its for only one song you wish to learn , learn it from source then you are more likely to be more accurate. Or you could be a 'Taker' Its the modern way to collect songs, after all when folk song collectors were collecting 'In the field' not all songs were wheat, I'm sure there was some of chaff. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: TheSnail Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor Eh? |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: GUEST,DonMeixner Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:40 AM I will always try and supply lyrics, chords, history, help to anyone who asks. I ask often enough myself. Don |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:29 AM A quarter of a semi-tone? You can have a third or a half depending on whether the semi-tone's major or minor. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: TheSnail Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:17 AM Frome Dolmetsch Alexander J. Ellis' system for measurement of musical intervals, in which the equal-tempered semitone equals 100 cents, the whole tone 200 cents, the octave 1200 cents, and so on. and even then your arithmetic is wrong, Dick. Pay attention at the back. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:57 AM If you have nothing constructive or helpful to say, why say anything? We all have differing skills and abilities and if we can help each other, or share knowledge, then why not just do it without resorting to being offensive if someone has a different opinion or different skills to yourself. well said,I would like to pass on those words to Llig Leahcim over on www.session.org |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Bounty Hound Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:42 AM I always thought that the purpose of forums such as this was the furtherance of a cause, (which I assume all members have an interest in) and to provide help and valid opinions (whether for or against) on topics of interest to the members. I fail to understand why some people feel the need to rude and offensive on such forums. Having only been a member for a few months I found myself the innocent victim of such offensive behaviour when I posted a thread asking for information about a particular song. A few days later (on my next visit to Mudcat) I found myself being berated for not having said thank you to someone who had posted a helpful reply. I did point out that in the intervening few days, I had done two gigs, had a day in the studio, and other things like work and family get in the way, however, I received no apology for the unkind words. If you have nothing constructive or helpful to say, why say anything? We all have differing skills and abilities and if we can help each other, or share knowledge, then why not just do it without resorting to being offensive if someone has a different opinion or different skills to yourself. Fortunately I know there are a majority of Catters who have a similar view to me, and the vast knowledge and resources here make it well worth belonging. Play nicely children, it's much more fun if you do! John |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: The Sandman Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM a tone equals 100 cents, a quarter of a semi tone, is a quarter of 25 cents, so it is 6 .25. unless they do it differently in sussex |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:14 AM Very witty Snail - and I think correct too! |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: TheSnail Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:06 AM Quarter of a semi tone? 'Cos you're a gent and I'm in a generous mood that'll be 25 cents. |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Will Fly Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:32 AM PS. Can anyone tell me what a quarter of a semi tone is or where I can by a CD with a recording of one. Nah - it's all gone metric. You can probably buy 200kg of a semitone but I don't think you'll find one on a CD of Western music... :-) |
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Subject: RE: On not knowing chords - and not helping From: Tyke Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:14 AM The Golden Rule is never critisize anyone or put them down! It will come back and bit them. Over 30 years ago when I had just learned to play I was told by somone that my Guitar was a quarter of a semi tone out. Thirty years later I bumpt into him again and publicly reminded him of this. After I had played his coment was bloody hell you can play better than me now! Don't let them grind you down we all know plenty of people who can play the Guitar very well but they can't play in public. PS. Can anyone tell me what a quarter of a semi tone is or where I can by a CD with a recording of one. |
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