I Hate the Sound..of 'classically trained' singers

Subject: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 03:55 PM

I know this will considered a heresy and I'm sorry but I just hate the sound of 'classically trained' singer - tenors, sopranos and the like. They sound so unnatural and forced and have the effect on me like chalk squeaking on a blackboard. And why do they have to affect such silly accents such as pronouncing 'bosum'as 'boo'sum'and 'hill' as 'heel'. And then there's that silly r rolling which sounds like that parody of a Scot from the Goon Show. Then there the unctious backing they always seem to require. Pretentious, precious of course: what all cultured people should like. When they attempt folk music the result is really quite ridiculous. OK, it may be techically clever to do what they do,rather like ultra high speed banjo playing, but to my ears that doesn't necessarily sound pleasant. Yes, I'd rather listen to Dave Burland and Christine Kidd than Pavarotti and Joan Sutherland.
Doc John
PS I think Shakespeare's plays are a verbose, incomprehensible, badly researched pantomine too.
PPS The Philistines had a bad press

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 04:00 PM

I could get to like you Doc.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 04:02 PM

So could I until he started on Shakespeare.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 04:24 PM

I like the sound of opera singers when they sing opera, but not when they sing folk music. Last year I started to go to Metropolitan Opera rebroadcasts at a cineplex near me. It's a genr, of music I've had little chance to listen to except when singers appeared on TV variety shows, like the Ed Sullivan Show, when I was a child. At that time I hated their sound: screeching or shouting, I thought. Over the last several years I've found myself in groups of people that included opera fans and decided, in my early 60s, to try to find out why. However, I don't like it when opera singers sing folk songs as if they were songs in an opera. I've heard this in some of the public television specials along the lines of The Three Tenors. That does not work for me. Opera music will never be my favorite. I'm definitely a folkie. Also, when I see the operas it helps that the acting is much better than I had expected and that there are English subtitles. I'm even beginning to think of some opera singers as my favorites in that genre, but I probably like them because of their acting since I am a just learning about the sounds.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM

Judy Collins was classically trained, and I won't hear a bad word about her folk recordings. It's a question of whether you know which parts of your classical training to apply to folk music, and which parts to save for another day. There's nothing wrong with hitting the notes spot on, clear diction, wide vocal range, and some of the other things one may get from classical training.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM

Being trained by a classical contralto in my mid 20s was the best decision I made in my musical career. She emphasized the importance of maintaining a physical regimen in addtion to any musical growth. She changed my life focus and for that I'll be forever grateful.

I continue to apply classical training in my singing to this day. While I don't have a 'classical voice' I've got the highest respect for those who do. But, I'm in agreement when an opera singer trys to tackle 'Ol' Man River, Wayfarin' Stranger or Amazing Grace, etc. W/all do respect...yuck.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 06:57 PM

Focus on what you like. It will make you happy.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:03 PM

I don't have any problem with liking both Dave Burland AND Luciano Pavarotti - what's to dislike? I'm no fan of classical singers performing music outside their sphere - such as jazz or folk - any more than I would like to hear most folk singers attempting the classical repertoire. But I loved operatic singing from the very first moment I heard it as a small child (78rpm shellac records played on my grandparents' old wind-up gramophone) and it has a place for me alongside all the other music I love - folk, blues, classical, ragtime, jazz, rock'n roll. Classical singing may be many things but pretentious it ain't - it's a hard craft requiring rigorous training and application, like most good music.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:20 PM

I must admit that I like opera but I don't like opera singers, or at least tenors and sopranos - they seem to be more concerned with showing off than communicating, and when I go to opera I go for the full experience - what's the point of Da Ponte or W S Gilbert's words if you can't hear them? For the same reason, unless it's an opera I know really well, I'm not too keen on just listening to the sound - I want the whole thing! Different musics require different vocal techniques. Some folk music can be sung with a 'big' voice - just listen to Bob Davenport for instance - but that would not be appropriate for delta blues.

I don't think classically trained singers are pretentious. They just sound that way. I didn't appreciate folk music when I was very, very young, because in those days Scottish music on radio was performed by the likes of Robert Wilson, Kenneth MacKellar and Calum Kennedy. It was only when I began to hear more traditionally sounding singers that I began to appreciate my national heritage.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

I hate the sound of those women screeching in the super markets. They sound like a hog caught in a barbed wire fence.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:24 PM

I'm with Little Hawk. Not literally, but you know what I mean...

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM

I also hate the sound of a bowed psaltery and the Saxophone. One sounds like a fly under a shingle, and the other sounds like a giant Kazoo.
Now, does anyone care what I don't like?

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 09:34 PM

I hate the sound of one hand clapping.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 09:49 PM

Lets not denigrate the singing forester, Kenneth McKellar. An unforgetable singer of 19th C. parlor repertoire.
It takes a great voice to sing "Kishmul's Galley." Or Burns' "Scots Wha' Hae."

Traditionally sounding? Like a fishwife hawking her wares?

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: J-boy
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 11:25 PM

Of a tree falling in the woods. Unless I'm not there to hear it or something.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Taconicus
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 12:23 AM

I also don't much like the sound of many (not all) 'classically trained' singers who sing in the bombastic stylistic classical style.

But I like Shakespeare's plays.

And many classicly trained singers, Judy Collins for example, don't use that bombastic style, and those sound fine.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: BrooklynJay
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:10 AM

Now, hate is a strong word...

Let's just say I strongly dislike not being able to decipher the lyrics when someone sings. If I cannot understand 90%-95% of what I'm hearing, I just shut off. Doesn't matter what the genre is. Of course, if someone is singing in a language I do not speak, I will, of course, make some allowances. But generally speaking, I do like to understand the lyrics.

Case in point: I remember I liked Rickie Lee Jones many years ago, when she released her first albums. But she was absolutely unintelligible on so many songs that if they didn't print the lyrics on the back of the album cover I would have given up on her after the first few minutes.

Sites with a lyrics database (like Mudcat's DT) or recordings where lyrics are provided are a real blessing.

Jay

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 03:27 AM

Treat classical singing as music rather than song and it can work if the singer is skilled - Callas, for instance.
I can remember my mother telling me of, when she was young, climbing up a fire escape onto the roof of a cinema with a group of friends and listening to the aria from Madam Butterfly drifting up from below - magic. She hated opera all her life, but she always remembered 'One Fine Day' as the piece of beautiful music that it is - I still agree with her; though I do love Carmen, song, music and plot.
I have to say I hate folk songs sung in operatic style - like throwing away the toffee and keeping the wrapping paper.
Shakespeare, like the big ballads, takes work to appreciate, but it's a journey worth making.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 04:20 AM

It does sound rather daft when a group of classically trained parlour ladies sing how they are "off to fight the F-r-r-r-ench!"

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 04:42 AM

Its the people who tell you what you should and shouldn't like or those who tell you how you should and shouldn't do something that I can't stand.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:12 AM

I'm always rather wary of blanket pronouncements - statements a bit like "I dislike all Taylor guitars" or "I dislike opera" or "I dislike all Volvos", etc. Such pronouncements seem a little simplistic, on the whole, and deny the chance of individual assessment of the thing in question.

I could say, with some some truth, that I'm not - on the whole - a fan of choral music, that I'm not - on the whole - a fan of church organ music, and that I'm irreligious. Going on those statements, I should really hate Janacek's "Glagolitic Mass", which is a huge choral mass in an obscure Czech language (Glagolitic), with a massive organ section in the last section. But I love it, and I think it's one of the greatest pieces of 20th century music.

To take "opera" as genre, once you dig into it, there are huge differences in style and approach from composer to composer - producing works which are as different from each other as chalk and cheese. "Carmen" and "Madame Butterfly" have been mentioned in previous posts - both examples of a tradition in both French and Italian opera in which arias and formal choruses are interspersed with spoken or sung recitative. Wagner changed the shape of all this when conceived opera as a continuous piece of music with sets, costumes, music all woven into one art form. Janacek went out into his native Czech countryside, noting down speech rhythms, the sounds of animals and insects, the feel of nature all round him - and then composed "The Cunning Little Vixen", in which nearly all the parts are animals. Utterly different again from Bizet, Puccini and Wagner.

It's worth digging deeper sometimes. Even if you end up hating it, at least you can say "I hate it" with informed conviction!

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:46 AM

On the whole I feel the same as Doc John on the topic of classically trained singers tackling other genres. All the things, which annoy him, annoy me too. I can not help but admire their craft and skill when they sing their "own" music, although I generally do not like that either. However, when I have heard good soloists singing in "The Messiah", or when I heard Robert Tear's tenor once making every timber of the building reverberate to Fourré's "Libere Me Domine", I could not help but be moved. My mother had a recording of Kiri Te Kanawa singing jazz standards. It came as a pleasant surprise to me that she concentrated on showing the songs rather than simply showing off her voice. I would not buy it, but I found it quite bearable.

On the subject of Shakespeare, I can appreciate that it is not for everyone, but I will take the liberty of remarking that Doc John is one of the less erudite critics whom I have read.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:06 AM

The OP has a very strong point in criticizing singers singing out of style. Record companies sometimes indulge in crossover experiments with famous performers, aimed at their admirers. Barbra Streisand singing Brahms, for example, was a universal ridicule. But even within each of the major categories such as classic, pop, jazz, and folk, there are hosts of stylistic approaches, each requiring good acquaintance and special training, as Will exemplified in the classical case. Sadly, many attempts fail, and more sadly still, this often goes unnoticed by the public, so that whole genres are misrepresented and brought into disrepute.

I'm with Gerry et al. that a good general training will mostly be found useful, if it is complemented with the requirements of the specific style of the pieces to be performed.

Shakespeare, on the other hand, was and is Shakespeare (whatever his or their real name/s may have been).

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Silas
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:15 AM

I will never forget a TV programm with Kate Rusby and that Northern Tart Opera Singer, I can't quite remember her name now, but it was roll on the floor hilarious, how Kate and the band kept a straight face I will never know.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:21 AM

Glad to hear what other 'catters think. It all started when I commented unfavourably on a classical tenor singing a song in the folk tradition on You Tube and that I preferred the versions sung by the amateurs. I received several abusive e-mails calling me ignorant, uneducated, pathetic and the like.
Now there's a one way ticket operating here. It's fine for the 'culture vultures' to say 'Lead Belly can't sing, he just shouts' or 'Bing Crosby can sing, he just croons' but you just cannot criticise the tenors, sopranos etc or you open yourself to the comments I received. It should be what you like or what you don't like but there's this attitude in society of what you should like if you're an 'educated' person. This attitude seems to be most prevalent in music: I can say I like David Lynch films and cricket and don't like John Wayne and football and this doesn't cause the same reaction. In this latter case, it's usually the 'each to his own' attitude.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:27 AM

Doc - I'm with you all the way on the snobbishness you sometimes get from classically trained singers towards more popular musical idioms. The acid test is when they try and do it themselves.
Some years ago, when that great tenor sax player and broadcaster Benny green was alive, he was comparing Kiri Te Kanawa's treatment of "I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Outta My Hair" from South Pacific to the treatment by Mary Martin in the film version. He demonstrated beyond doubt that, in that genre, Mary Martin had "it" and Kiri Te Kanawa - great as she was and is - just didn't have "it".

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:45 AM

Two people have mentioned Kiri Te Kanawa, so I'll add my two cents. She did an album of folk songs which I found unlistenable - those poor songs were helpless against the onslaught of that voice. Then I listened to her doing South Pacific and expected the same, but was pleasantly surprised; she was singing it as Broadway musical, not as grand opera, and it sounded great. Maybe if I had the benefit of the broadcast Will Fly refers to, I'd agree that Mary Martin did it better, but I thought KTK did it very well.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 07:14 AM

Hi Gerry. I think Benny Green's opinion was that, although KTK sang the South Pacific piece beautifully, her interpretation lacked that essential "pizzaz", the gutsiness of Broadway singers like Mary Martin, Sophie Tucker, Ethel Merman, etc., which that particular tune - and musical - demands. Once again, it's horses for course. I'd no idea she'd done a folk album - must check it out, just out of interest...

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: blinddrunkal
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:18 AM

Can't help but agree - operatic singers "doing" folk or show tunes generally lose the "feel" of the music - one exception I would make would be John Shirley-Quirk singing Percy Grainger's arrangement of "Shallow Brown"
: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL5G9C59Iao

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: blinddrunkal
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:20 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL5G9C59Iao

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:23 AM

Well, seein' as my wife is classically trained (soprano) I gotta, at least, say that I love her voice... But the rest of 'um??? Like fingernails on the chalk board...

BTW, I kinda like Shakespeare... Not love, mind you, but like...

B~

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:31 AM

And enterprises of great pith and moment become sicklied over with the pale cast of thought, and lose the mane of action.
How can anyone NOT like that? Sure, by modern standards it is a bit verbose, but it is so much better than simply saying, "On second thought, screw it."

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Alan Day
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 08:33 AM

This is interesting as I had a dilemma when compiling English Concertina International as I had a the very thing that Doc John is referring to. A Folk Song sung in an operatic voice. Lovely singing and beautiful accompaniment. From the test samples I put out this song came out as the most loved and alternatively the most hated of the collection. One of my jobs is to ensure that where possible I do not set someone up for criticism, but at the same time try to create an interesting varied selection.It was decided not to include it as I thought that certainly the UK Folk listeners would not enjoy it. From the general level of replies on this thread I did the right thing.
Al

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:24 AM

There's a lot of Shakespeare and not all of it is wonderful, but now and then a line or two will just knock you for six.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:42 AM

Tiny bit of trivia: Mary Martin starred in the original Broadway cast of South Pacific, but Mitzi Gaynor starred in the original film.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:48 AM

Indeed she did, ChanteyLass - there's a YouTube b&w clip of Mary Martin singing the piece in the 1952 stage production in London - and I prefer Martin to Gaynor meself...

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:24 AM

I'm right with you on that Glagolitic Mass, Will. And we have the great Charles Mackerras to thank for his advocacy of Janacek.

What about John McCormack? He was a celebrated classical singer yet he could turn his hand to those Irish ballads in what I consider to be a wonderful, inimitable manner. Another bloke who could do the same kind of thing was Peter Dawson. Still, it's just my taste I s'pose. If I ever hear that Andreas Scholl countertenor bloke singing folk songs I have to leave the room immediately. Mind you, I'm like that with countertenors anyway. :-)

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:32 AM

I am often surprised at what I like on first exposure. It is sort of like the saying "You should never see how sausage is made." The list of things I don't like is endless but so is the list of things I do.

I think the issue with opera singers is more one of the material than the voice. I once heard an operatic tenor singing Buffy St Marie's song "Up Where We Belong". It sounded great by Jennifer Warnes but stilted and never quite in key by the tenor.(A problem I have with all operatic voices outside of the opera setting)

I often quote Jean Redpath in this regard. "I have a too highly refined sense of the ridiculous to truly appreciate opera."

Shakespeare on the other hand has to be heard rather than read.

Don

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:41 AM

Another bloke who could do the same kind of thing was Peter Dawson.

Coincidentally, I was listening to Peter Dawson this morning - his were some of the old 78rpm records I used to listen to as a child on my grandparents' gramophone in the early 50s. I still love his voice, and he was a fine bass-baritone singer. He was renowned for diction and I was told once that he used to turn his back to the audience at a concert, take out his teeth and then sing! Whether that's true or not I don't know - but it's a great story!

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 10:49 AM

As a teenager, an aunt obviously asked my parents what I would like for Christmas. "Folk songs" must have been the reply.

I ended up with two Peter Pears and Benjamin Britten EPs, probably very good but not at all what I wanted in the mid 60s. (CND stuff was more my thing) I never have cared for the trained approach, and I still don't.

Mind you the poor aunt must have had trouble - real folk (no don't go there!!!) was hard to find in Bournemouth at the time. I hope I wasn't too rude when I opened them.

Paws

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:13 AM

In general I would agree that classical trained singers often mangle traditional songs, but there are exceptions. Judy Collins is one. Have a listen to Rhiannon Giddens of the Carolina Chocolate Drops. Two Time Loser couldn't be done better, and then there is the incredible Ladino song "A La Una Yo Naci". Rhiannon is classically trained, but while that certainly contributes to her range and lovely voice tone, it doesn't get in the way of her singing when she goes traditional.

I also have a CD of traditional Appalachian ballads by Custer LaRue. She's very "classical" in her approach, but I still enjoy the songs.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:36 AM

And let's not forget that memorable quote from Shakespeare afetr his dog peed on the carpet...

..."Out, damned Spot"....

B;~)

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:50 AM

I don't usually get into conversations of this kind as I find that people seem to have so many preconcieved notions about different types of music..i.e. "classical" is the music of "snobs" and the "educated"! Whatever that means. I have been listening to folk music for many years and I love it..However, the best singer I have ever heard, bar none, is Cecelia Bartoli...not only because she has been well "trained" but because she sings with such passion and deep understanding.
   Also, I belive that Judy Collins was trained as a pinist and not as a singer, that is not to say she isn't a grand singer, she is.
I guess my overall point is that I hate the stereotyping of classical music lovers as snobs and elites, they are just music lovers like everyone else..yes ?

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 12:49 PM

What I really dislike is poetry read in an affected, slow, "poetry reading" voice with too much "feeling" and the emphasis all wrong.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:21 PM

Vernon Dalhart (Marion T. Slaughter) was an opera singer who went into early country music, and it showed. Maybe that's why he wasn't very popular.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:26 PM

I hate the sound God makes when he's boiling up the leavings from his neep lanterns at Halloween; it's a sort of high pitched multi-layered whoop-whoop not unlike the triumphant chorus of destroyers at the end of The Guns of Navaronne - see HERE, 3.59 - only louder. Why does he do it? He is God, he can do anything.

Not too keen on the sound of recycling and wind-farms, nor yet of the screaming sheep in the abbatoir. There are certain frequencies the South-East wind makes whilst keening through my next door neighbour's over-flow pipe which inspires in me a certain melancholy, whilst a North-East wind inspires a wistfulness and longing that I can't readily account for. The demolition of coal-fired power stations is a sound I dread; likewise the seventh note the Westminster Chimes and the neighbour's cat Wilson crunching on the rat heads which seem to be its staple diet.

That'll do for now.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: G-Force
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:36 PM

One point that nobody has made yet is that the reason why opera singers strongly trill their 'R's and emphasise their consonants is because they're singing without mikes to a large theatre. If they didn't do that, you'd only hear the vowels and not the consonants. The same applied to music hall artists.

Modern popular singers whether Bing Crosby or Stevie Wonder have never had to do that, so a whole style of singing has grown up which just sounds completely different to anything before the 20th century, and fans of popular music just expect their singers to sound the way they do.

Of course, folk song was never meant to be sung in a theatre.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:38 PM

Iagree that Kiri Te Kanawa is not great at folk songs..she's not great at opera either. Great voice, no passion.

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM

"Sure, by modern standards it is a bit verbose," said Kendall of a passage he quotes from Hamlet. Shax indeed sometimes may appear so. But just as often, it is the intense concentration of his concepts which make his work, tho sometimes a little obscure, so uniquely satisfying.

Take, e.g., the passage from Henry V: "Now all the youth of England are on fire, And silken dalliance in the wardrobe lies". Try to paraphrase the last 6 words, and analyse their precise meaning. The best I can come up with is something on the lines of "The sort of luxurious clothes appropriate to flirtation and idle high living have been abandoned in the wardrobe, and this is symbolic of the abandonment during the national emergency of the kind of lifestyle to which they were appropriate". Can anyone find a briefer paraphrase which will comprehend the whole, concentrated, significance of the line?

It is this sort of concentrated metonymic ellipsis that makes Will's images so often so expressive and laden with meaning.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: I Hate the Sound...
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 02:44 PM

Gary Morris is another country singer who sang opera as well. His "La Boheme" and "Les Miserables" were highly regarded by some...

What Shakespeare meant in 1600 by ".... a silken dalliance..." may have had an entirely different meaning as to how it sounds in 2011.

Gay and gay for instance.

Old Bill needs no defense by me, and for his words the charm may be in the puzzle of their meaning.

People cross over styles all the time. In retrospect I think it is more the individual's performance than the discipline it self.

Don