online Child's w/ music?

Subject: online Child's w/ music?
From: banjocircus
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 09:18 AM

When I was in college, my school's library had a lovely 1956 edition of Child's books in three (large) volumes that had ballad variants with the tunes printed for some (where available, I guess).

1)
Does anybody know of a web site that has something similar? I can of course find the text of the ballads, but nothing with sheet music except maybe on a very limited basis.

2)
If not, can you recommend a similar printing? What currently-in-print edition is best?

Thanks,

Jonathan

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 09:38 AM

Not much online, but see here

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 09:43 AM

Camsco Music in the US has Bronson's 'Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads' for sale at $40 per volume, which is an absolute bargain. It duplicates the relatively small number of tunes Child himself published but includes hundreds more gems mostly collected after his death. That's what you need if you really want to sing ballads!

Bronson

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 09:50 AM

Snap, Brian! I thought others might give the same reference and wanted to get in first, so I didn't spell out what the link was.

Online, there are various individual ballads, but most don't have music. Quite a few have MIDI files which many programs can change to staves (but not necessarily in a format you would choose to write)

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:04 AM

Ah right, DMcG, I assumed you were giving a link to the Loomis House edition of the original Child volumes. Which, incidentally, are here

The Dover edition is also available quite cheaply these days from Amazon

Their US site appears to be showing all five volumes of Dover for $52!

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:05 AM

The Loomis edition has the advantage that the tunes are printed alongside the appropriate texts, not in an appendix as per Dover. Loomis don't seem to have published the fifth volume yet, though.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:15 AM

No problem, Brian. I bought each of the Loomis House Child volumes as they came out and got given the first volume of Bronson as a Christmas present when they came out. Then I had to buy the rest ...

As you say, amazing value (especially compared to what Bronson's used to cost.)

(And I've got a few of your CDs with Child Ballads as well. Also good value!)

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:32 AM

You're too kind!

I bought an original set of Bronson four years ago for ££Stupid, and even at that price they've been good value.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: banjocircus
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 11:37 AM

So to clarify, the Bronson has the tunes interspersed with the text, and the Dover has various tunes in appendices in the back of each volume? Is either more complete?

Jonathan

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 12:09 PM

Depends on your point of view. FJ Child was interested in the ballads as literature and their origins so from that angle it is more complete. But you were asking about the tunes and there are very many more in Bronson. I've not cross-checked but I'd assume every tune in Child is also in Bronson.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 01:22 PM

I'd assume that as well, DMcG - since Bronson was attempting a comprehensive review of all the Child ballads with tunes known at the time, I'd be surprised if he left out any of the ones Child himself printed. I mentioned that Bronson's collection consists mostly of ballad versions collected after Child's death, and it's worth emphasisng that these - while recognizable as examples of particular Child titles - are not identical texts to the ones FJC published. Tunes were never found for many of Child's titles, and even in the case of well-known ballads, the earliest versions he included were often from broadsides with no tune attached or definable.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 01:47 PM

Don't know if it clarifies anything for Banjocircus, but Child's collection (including very few tunes which all appeared in vol. 5) predates Bronson's collection of tunes for Child ballads by at least 60 years. Bronson therefore had access to material that wasn't available to Child, most obviously to the Greig-Duncan Collection from NE Scotland which was only gathered prior to WW1. And he also had access to many major recorded collections in the US, up to the 1960's.
So Bronson is probably your best starting point -- providing that you also have Child on hand for texts!

Like other posters, I am fortunate enough to have both the Dover and Loomis editions of Child texts (and Loomis is far more attractive from the point of view of both clarity and organisation) and I also have the original 4 (large!) volumes of Bronson, which are to be cherished not only for the great effort of scholarship -- they certainly gives a sense of what happens to a ballad as it travels through time and also geographically.
If the original poster is really interested in making a study of/learning ballads, he couldn't have chosen a better time, what with the online availability and the recently produced Loomis editions.

I hope he enjoys the explorations!

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 05:33 PM

Banjocircus,
If you tell us your point of interest we will be able to advise you better. I have both the Dover Child and a mixed set of Bronson and find both invaluable, but I am nowadays looking from a researcher's angle. If I was looking solely from a performer's angle I would be more than happy with the Bronson. Suffice it to say no other work in English comes anywhere near both of these for traditional ballads, and both are now available for peanuts compared with what they were.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 05:49 PM

Is Loomis House actually a going concern? Nothing seems to have happened on its Web site for over a year, and the 5th volume has been in the works for two years.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM

Loomis House is a going concern. Mark is actively working on volume 5 and says "soon" (of course he has said that for a while...) Loomis House is CAMSCO's partner on producing Bronson and other books.
Books at CAMSCO
Bronson and the other books are available/printed in the UK as well as the US.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 07:02 PM

Lesley Nelson (the Contemplator) has a great site with midi arrangements - not a complete coverage of the Child Ballads, but pretty representative:-

http://www.contemplator.com/child/index.html

Ross

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:00 PM

Here's the bibliographic data on the Bronson book (first edition):

"Bronson, Bertrand Harris, 1902-1986.

The traditional tunes of the Child ballads; with their texts, according to the extant records of Great Britain and America.
Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press, 1959- "

You can probably study it for free by requesting it at your public library. In my area, it is a reference book at the downtown branch, and two colleges an hour or two away have copies.

I borrowed this book from one of the colleges (interlibrary loan) some years ago, and in my opinion it was disappointing. I added only one tune to my repertoire out of this book.

However, if you want to play or sing the songs and are in search of instant gratification, I recommend Contemplator's site. If you have MIDI software (oh bliss!) you can download, edit and print the music. Then you fit the words to it, and bob's your uncle.

But actually, I prefer the one tune I liked (a tune for 'Lord Randall') without any words.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: IvanB
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 12:36 AM

leenia, the Bronson referred to in this thread is a four volume set, so if you borrowed one book you either got only one volume of the set or got Bronson's "Singing Tradition of the Popular Child Ballads," a much smaller volume covering far less selections and tune variants.

I've had the original Bronsons (4 vol set) for some years now and find it a great resource for tunes. Well worth even the high bucks I paid for it then and even more affordable in the Loomis House facsimile edition. If you buy the set from CAMSCO (don't know if this is true for purchases direct from Loomis House or not) a CD-ROM with the full PDF text in searchable format is included. Dick Greenhaus of CAMSCO was kind enough to sell me a copy of the CD separately since I already had the set and I find it a great addition to the printed version.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 02:27 AM

I'm glad contemplator's site came up. It was in my mind when I mentioned various MIDI sites,and am aware we've concentrated on option (2) of the opening post and virtually ignored option (1).

If you have MIDI software (oh bliss!) you can download, edit and print the music

While the last post is some time ago, this thread gives a reasonable list of the options available for converting MIDI to sheet music. Be aware, though, that MIDI is not designed for notation so the results might need some work before they look pretty.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 03:59 AM

A side of Child we don't often see,
Jim Carroll

The lyricist for "Overtures from Richmond" was the great folklorist, Professor Francis James Child, best-known as the editor of the classic work in Anglo-Saxon ballad tradition, The English and Scottish Popular Ballads Interestingly enough, the great "folk purist" borrowed a traditional air for his 'words and penned a topical song of his period in a manner not unlike topical balladeers a century later. Politically, Child was a radical, one of the outspoken advocates of a forthright "Abolitionist" policy in the early years of the war. As editor of a song pamphlet, War Songs for Freeman, Child attempted to develop national loyalty and support for Emancipation with more than a score of propaganda songs many of them parodies to traditional airs.
"Overtures from Richmond" was written by Child to the familiar tune of "Lilliburlero," believed to have been composed by Henry Purcell sometime around 1686. "Lilliburlero" is one of the most famous political songs in English song literature, written as a broad satire on the policies of James
The significance of the lyrics comes from the fear of many Unionists at the possibility of "peace overtures" from Richmond the Confederate capital, which would result in a "compromise" solution of the war leaving slavery intact. Child ardent abolitionist that he was, tried to show that no compromise was possible with the Confederate leaders.
This song, with more than 100 others, will appear in a forthcoming collection of Civil War songs put together by SING OUT editor, Irwin Silber, scheduled for summer or fall publication by Columbia University Press


OVERTURES FROM RICHMONG
"Well Uncle Sam," says Jefferson D.,
Lilliburlero, Old Uncle Sam.
"You'll have to join my Confederacy
Lilliburlero, Old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, that don't appear oh,
That don't appears2, says old Uncle Sam,
"Lero, lero, filibustero.
That don't appear", says old Uncle Sam

"Then you must pay me national debts,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam,
"No questions asked about my assets,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, that's very dear,
Oh, that's very dear," says old Uncle Sam

"Lero, lero, filibustero,
That's very dear," says old Uncle Sam.

"So, Uncle Sam, just lay down your arms,"
Lilliburlero old Uncle Sam,
"Then you shall hear my reas'nable terms,"
Lilliburlero old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, I'd like to hear
Oh, I'd like to hear," says old Uncle. Sam
"Lero, lero, filibustero
I'd like to hear," says old Uncle Sam.

"First you must own I've beat you in fight,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam,
"Then that I always have been in the right,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, rather severe
Oh, rather severe," says old Uncle Sam
"Lero, lero, filibustero,
Rather severe," says old Uncle Sam.

"Also some few IOU's and bets,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam
"Mine, and Bob Toombs', and' Sidell's and Rhett's,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, that leaves me zero,
That leaves me zero," says Uncle Sam
"Lero, lero, filibustero,
That leaves me zero," says Uncle Sam~

"And by the way, one little thing more,
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam,
"You're to refund the costs of the war,'
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, just what I fear,
Oh, just what I fear," says old Uncle Sam
"Lero, lero filibustero,
Just what I hear," says old Uncle Sam.

"Next, you must own our Cavalier blood!"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam,
"And that your Puritans sprang from the mud!"
Lilliburlero old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, that mud is clear
Oh, that mud is clear," says old Uncle Sam
"Lero, lero, filibustero,
That mud is clear," says old Uncle Sam.

"Slavery's, of course, the chief corner-stone,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam,
"Of our new ci-vi-li-za-tion!"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, that's quite sincere
Oh, that's quite sincere," says old Uncle Sam
"Lero, lero, filibustero,
That's quite sincere," says old Uncle Sam.

"You'll understand my recreant tool,"
Lilliburlero, old' Uncle Sam,
"You're to submit, and we are to rule,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, aren't you a hero!
Aren't you a hero," says Uncle Sam,
"Lero, lero, filibustero,
Aren't you a hero," says Uncle Sam.

"If to these terms you fully consent,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam,
I'll be perpetual King-President,"
Lilliburlero, old Uncle Sam.
"Lero, lero, take your sombrero,
Off to your swamps," says old Uncle Sam
"Lero lero, filibustero,
Cut, double quick!" says old Uncle Sam.

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 10:19 AM

Whether the work is in one volume or four, the fact remains that Banjocircus can learn something useful FOR FREE by using the good old Public Library.

As for notation, I use Noteworthy Composer, which is very reasonably priced and produces very nice printed music. My friends and I have been playing multi-part music made with Noteworthy for years.

Some posts say that there are free programs which will print out MIDI's for you, but over the years I have learned that sounds can have strange effects on a computer. I prefer to deal with an established firm with a street address and a staff. Why risk a computer to save $50?

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 10:41 AM

Bronson, in addition to his masterful 4-volume "Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads", authored a single volume condensation "The Singing Tradition of the Child Ballads'. This contains the more commonly encountered versions of the ballads.

CAMSCO and Loomis House both have it available in either hard or soft cover, printed in both the US and UK. It's a quarter the price of the more-inclusive set (though it doesn't include the CD-R)

Subject: RE: online Child's w/ music?
From: banjocircus
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 07:32 PM

Thank you all for your wonderful responses! They are very helpful.

While I love my public library, unfortunately, they are sadly lacking in this regard: they have only a single, limited volume of Child Ballads, plus Lomax's book. Hence, I am looking for more!

My interest is mostly singing, with an eye toward ballad variants. So a collection that has variants of the ballads, tunes, and enables me to learn to sing them is what I'm after.

It kind of sounds like I can't go wrong.

Jonathan