Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards

Subject: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 11 - 05:37 PM

Best Band and Best Live Band (for the 6th time I believe).
Congratulations

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 09:44 AM

Well deserved. Best live band I've ever seen by a long way

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,steve th
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 09:50 AM

but rather predictable, they seem to win every year. a great live band but there are other bands out there just as great that never even get a nomination never mind the award.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 11:08 AM

Like who, Steve? Who are the bands just as great as Bellowhead who never get nominations, let alone awards?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: squeezeboxhp
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 11:16 AM

Steamchicken
Peeping Tom
for 2

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 11:19 AM

Going off on a slight tangent, I heard from a rather reliable source that they're going to re-record the theme tune to the Archers as part of the 60th anniversary celebrations. I wonder how popular that will make them?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 11:23 AM

You know the BBC banned Best Live Act from being a public voted award because Show of Hands 'would just keep winning it'...as Mel, the Smooth Ops host of the F&A Board told everyone. There was a huge outcry of disgust from some of the Traddies when SoH *did* win, amidst accusations of vote rigging too, as they have such a large fan base...

I took this to task, stating that bands who have such a large fan base do so for a particular reason, and that is that they're very popular and appreciated by many folks, so therefore, they deserve to win.

But nope, out went the public vote after just ONE year...Yup, the FIRST ever public vote, Show of Hands won it...and those in control and I do mean ****CONTROL**** of the Folk Awards banned the public vote there and then...

Now of course, the band beloved by Those in Control of the Folk World 'just keep winning and winning' every year...and blow me down, no-one says a word about it....

One rule for the public and Show of Hands...and one rule for Those in Control and Bellowhead.

It's why I don't give a flying fiddle about The Folk Awards any longer because the whole thing is, in my humble personal opinion rigged and deeply incestuous.

I do acknowledge that Show of Hands *have* won many awards, but it's the 'year after year after year' handouts that I'm talking about...

Heyho...

Personally, I think The Duncan McFarlane Band should win Best Live Act and/or Best Band...and they are WAY overdue to win it too..but how the fiddle are other bands EVER going to get a chance when the same old same old keep on getting there, voted in by the cronies who run the show and adore their prodiges?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 11:28 AM

'Prodigies, Promises & Prizes'

A good name for a Folk Awards CD one year, possibly, maybe..brought to you by Incestuously Smoothly Done Operations Inc.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM

Bellowhead are indeed fine musicians but I can't stand them.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 11:46 AM

just curious.. how many of Bellowhead are ex-public school.. ???

not that it means anything at the BBC..

or any awards nominations..


or anything..


errrmmm...


maybe they all went to ruff 'n' tuff comprehensives.. ???

or were even 'excluded' street urchins...

beating up posh kids and mugging them for their trombones and violins.....

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM

Well done to Andy Cutting for the Musician Of The Year award (2nd time).

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,S.T.M.
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:06 PM

Err, punkfolkrocker...what has that got to do with anything? Even if they were all bought up with silver spoons in their mouths (which, I don't know if they were or not) but, why would it matter if they were?

Seems like a bizarre and prejudiced comment to make.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:12 PM

nah.. just cheeky & mischievous..

I really like Bellowhead..

but then again, I passed the '11 plus' for all the good it did me..

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ian Hendrie
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:16 PM

I'm getting a bid fed up with negativity and rants about Show of Hands so I'd just like to say I really like Bellowhead and am looking forward to seeing them at Buxton in a week or so's time.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:32 PM

I like Bellowhead. They are the best live band that I've seen in many a year. I was glad they won but there was a little part of me that would have liked to see Fiddlers Bid win. They're very exciting on stage but I don't think that many people outside Scotland will have seen them. We had to go to Shetland!

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 01:04 PM

"I'm getting a bid fed up with negativity and rants about Show of Hands so I'd just like to say I really like Bellowhead and am looking forward to seeing them at Buxton in a week or so's time."


Show of Hands just happened to be the band concerned at the time, Ian. I'm not ranting or raging that they didn't win anything. My post would have been exactly the same had Bellowhead won the first public vote, then been told that vote was being removed because 'they'd just keep winning it' due to their large fanbase, had they had the same numerically successful fanbase that the other band had way back then.

Of course, my argument is also that this probably would *never* have happened, because the Bellowhead lads and lassies are totally accepted, supported and much loved by those who control the Folk World.

This is NOT a rant about SoH or anyone else, merely about the crooked and incestuous system that for was too long has dominated the folk world.

If folks are happy to put up with it, fair enough.

Personally, I think it stinks, have been saying so for years, and will continue to say so, because this system is deeply unfair to the huge amount of other folk bands/performers out there who never get a look in because they are outside The Magic Folk Circle....some are new and younger, some have been kept outside for a very long time...and quite simply, in my opinion, that is totally wrong.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM

Agreed fifthwith Lizzie!!

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 01:58 PM

Thanks sfmans - I was at the folk club on Monday evening and missed the news about Andy Cutting (whom I've known since he was at primary school....)

Kitty

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 02:14 PM

Fiddlers Bid are indeed a superb band - and I had to go up to Alnwick to see them last September.

To be honest, there are so many good folk bands/groupings of one sort or another out there that the whole 'award' schtick just seems utterly irrelevant to me.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM

Bellowhead and Show of Hands are both exceptional bands, and as far as I am concerned, I'd be happy to see either of them win anything.

I don't know much about the history of these awards and who has won them in the past, but a duo I'd like to see win (if they haven't already) is Belshazzar's Feast. They are also brilliant!

Also well deserved congrats to Eliza and Norma for their award, to Andy Cutting for his, and for James and Nancy for theirs. All wonderful performers.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 02:28 PM

I'm also going to see Bellowhead at Buxton and I'm counting off the days.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 02:52 PM

Btw GUEST,S.T.M.

you may or may not find this recent mudcat thread an interesting read..

[just substitute "folk" for "pop".. in this context]


"pop as upper class culture"        


thread.cfm?threadid=135269


"yes m'Lady, just carrying young master Toby's instruments and amp to the stage,
.. prepare a refreshing ice bucket of champers and a freshly laundered towel,
then standby for further orders.
It's a privilege to roadie for such a fine young gentleman from such a good family, Ma'am..."

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 03:25 PM

Well done yet again to Bellowhead and delighted for Ewan Mclennan - superbly talented man.

I agree with Lizzie that Duncan McFarlane Band are well overdue for an award. They must be Yorkshire's best-kept secret.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: The Awkward Recruit
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 03:55 PM

@JennyO - Belshazzer's Feast were nominated for best duo last year - but lost out to the duo Show of Hands (Steve Knightley, Phil Beer and Miranda Sykes.)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 04:08 PM

lizzie tells an interesting story. Certainly one worth contemplating. Cant be having the common folk having any say in the "folk awards" or any kind of common place comprehensive bred ruffian might be getting awards. Saw the levellers on bbc folk awards, one bit of life among the well bred blandness of the rest of it.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Olive Bennewith
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 04:24 PM

I think Fiddlers' Bid are amazing. They may be touring in England this autumn.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 04:49 PM

Just seeing Chris Wood performing "Hollow Point" put the whole evening in context.
And it was great to see Danny Thompson. Shame he was playing for Donovan though.
Slightly amazed that nobody on this thread has slagged off Kate Rusby yet?
I'll give you time.....

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,guest stan
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 05:05 PM

why did seeing Chris put it all into perspective then Ralphie?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 04:24 AM

"I agree with Lizzie that Duncan McFarlane Band are well overdue for an award. They must be Yorkshire's best-kept secret"

Thanks, levels..

Their gigs from years back are still fresh in my mind, not only at the first ever Sidmouth Folk Week, where they literally brought the town to LIFE! But in Otley too, at that fabulous gig in the wine bar, which was actually Otley Folk Club...I have NEVER seen so many people crammed into one room to see a band! People of all ages, young and old, all shouting and cheering, bobbing up and down as Duncan and his Band gave the full folk rock version of their repertoire...

It was nothing less than SENSATIONAL and I took as much pleasure from watching the audience react, as I did from watching and hearing the band..One of the best gigs I've ever been to. Just wish I lived closer to them all.

Later in the week we saw a very different band, this time giving their acoustic set...gentle and quiet, lulling their appreciative audience into good places. That was some gig too..and so good was the atmosphere, so friendly and relaxed, that I didn't really want it to end...



I tell you who else is WAY overdue for an Award...Reg Meuross. Reg is not just a highly professional performer, but a wonderous weaver of stories into songs. He's got the magical ability to touch the heart with his words and I fully agree with Mike Harding that Reg is one of the best songwriters this country now has.

This is why I get so angry that the same old same old keep on winning. It's hugely under-representative of the rest of the major talent in the folk world, and it's highly unfair too. I don't think there can actually be any other Award Show where the same people from the same Inner Sacred Circle keep on winning, year after year after year...

And to remove the public vote after the first year, as they did, PURELY because they realised that a band from the Outer Circle would keep winning, more than likely, was preposterous and it showed me in absolutely blinding light how corrupt and controlled the whole Folk Awards system is.

Big Fish in a Small Bowl rule it with an iron fist...and even though some headway has been made, it is not nearly enough.

Any other system that behaved in this way would, I'm more than sure, have a full investigation launched into exactly what's going on, but the folk world seems to be above and beyond all...

I like Bellowhead now and then, but I far prefer Spiers & Boden on their own and find the Bellowhead line-up way over the top at times...I'm afraid I cringed when I saw them last on Jools Holland and I do NOT think they are hugely representative of the magnificent talent which lies within the English Folk World.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 04:27 AM

If I may, I'd like to just put this part in a separate post, as it got lost in my many words above.

"I tell you who else is WAY overdue for an Award...Reg Meuross. Reg is not just a highly professional performer, but a wonderous weaver of stories into songs. He's got the magical ability to touch the heart with his words and I fully agree with Mike Harding that Reg is one of the best songwriters this country now has."

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 10:33 AM

Guest Stan.
Apart from his telling song about the murder in Stockwell 2 years ago. His comment during his acceptance speech included the line "Folk music is the raspberry seed in the back tooth of the establishment" says it all really.
That, and his other writings over many years make him a really worthy winner.
and his comment "Thanks to all that voted for me, and Balls to those that didn't" gives one an idea of someone with a sense of humour.
That's why it was a defining moment for me.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 10:42 AM

And futhermore, anyone who gets Tulse Hill, Brixton and Stockwell into one song gets my vote.
And I wasn't that far away that morning when the murder happened. London.......Doncha love it?
Well done Chris, and thanks for writing the song.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 11:32 AM

"I tell you who else is WAY overdue for an Award...Reg Meuross"

Agree with you there too, Lizzie. His new CD is his best yet IMO. Plus, he's a really nice bloke. Hope to get to see him and Jackie at The Rock later this year.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 11:40 AM

Just watching Reg and Bethany Porter, levels..coincidence, eh! :0)

'...and Jesus Wept'

I love Bethany's input on this song..sounds lovely.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: alex s
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 12:31 PM

As Will says "there are so many good folk bands/groupings of one sort or another out there that the whole 'award' schtick just seems utterly irrelevant to me"
Spot on, Will

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 12:56 PM

A band with as many members as Bellowhead recording a CD at Abbey Road with veteran producer John Leckie
and "living in beautiful apartments in St John's Wood for two weeks and being able to walk to Studio 2" [Sam Sweeney]
won't have been as 'cheap as chips', and will have to be paid for in full somehow...

So can't really be surprised Bellowhead need to maintain as high a media profile as possible
to try push their products to a mass consumer market..

But that kind of commitment to success has got to involve unenviable levels of pressure and stress
that most folkies would most happily live and perform without..

Just seeing 2 girlfriends at the same time at opposite ends of the country when I was 22
caused outbreaks of eczema and panic attacks..

so be buggered if I could have coped with being hounded by ruthless record company executives & accountants....

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 03:06 PM

Slightly amazed that nobody on this thread has slagged off Kate Rusby yet?

Ah, Ralphie, everyone's far too busy giving Bellowhead their traditional MudKicking. Withing about four weeks Bellowhead and Kate Rusby are both gracing the stage of the Buxton Opera House and I am looking forward too, and shall no doubt be a very happy punter at both events.

We now return you to our regular programmes ...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 03:47 PM

Kate Rusby's wonderful. :0)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 07:14 PM

kate is wonderful but i really didn't like her live song on Monday night,
would have loved to see a live set from SoH and Bellow Head

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 10 Feb 11 - 08:18 PM

Don't hold too much with award shows myself, but see them as symptomatic of our celebrity obsessed culture. That said, I'm a charitable soul and would congratulate the winners.

But if Bellowhead are best band, then The Bounty Hounds can be proud of themselves to have had 6 times more plays than Bellowhead on the Rochester Sweeps Myspace page. (and before anyone says, I know it's not a particularly representative sample, but I can dream)

If we have to have these things, it would be good if they were more representative, and I can only agree with the comments above about the Duncan McFarlane band, I had the pleasure of seeing them at Shrewsbury a couple of years ago. My only comment would be that I found Duncan's stage antics a little off-putting and distracted from some excellent music. If they are Yorkshires best kept secret, perhaps the 'Hounds' can stake a claim as East Anglia's best kept secret!

John

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 03:05 AM

I am not defending the folk awards folk awards but:

Ask Ewan McLennan or Moore Moss Rutter in six months time if the award makes any difference. Hands up those people who have actually seen Ewan perform. So young and up and coming artists do get a look in. Ewan is 24.

The last time Norma or Eliza won anything was 2003.

Despite what people say Show of Hands won Best Duo last year - even though they are a trio! They have also won Best original Song, and Best Live Act, in the last ten years. So it doesn't look like they are excluded. The last time Eliza or Norma won an award was 2003.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 03:38 AM

My point was *not* about Show of Hands being excluded, Dave. Please read my posts again.

It wasn't about them, personally, at all, actually, as whomsoever the band had been, under those circumstances, would, in my opinion, have been equally as unfair.

You can't just 'cancel' a public vote after the first year because those in control didn't like the band that got voted in...??????????

Well, actually, you can. And THEY did.

Now, had Bellowhead been voted in I'm pretty sure the public vote would still be in place to this day. Of course, I could be wrong, but...I doubt it.

Please, do *not* turn this into the usual 'Lizzie Loves SoH!' thread, because that is not the case.

It's the SYSTEM, (imo a very CORRUPT system) and those who run it, that I've been trying to call into question for years and years.

Also, for that same amount of time I've been asking for a list of the 'judges' who make these decisions to be made public, but as far as I'm aware only Ian Anderson of fRoots has been brought out into the open as being on the panel, I think pretty much year after year too.

Surprised? Moi? Non....

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,johnfromstoke
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 04:42 AM

i think lizzie is right in tthat neither showyourhands or belowhead are worthy winners or kate rusby surely a life time achievement award should go to sting?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,S.T.M.
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:16 AM

^ I don't think that was the point that Lizzie was trying to make. I think Lizzie was stating that she believes the folk awards to be a corrupt process because, as far as we know, the same panel of people are judges each year and they keep choosing the same acts as winners each time. Lizzie (I think) would rather the folk awards ran on public vote, rather like the Spiral Awards or something similar, so we get a fair representation of who the public deem as worthy winners.

I really don't think any of Lizzie's posts were attacking any band or saying that any band didn't deserve their award- she would have simply like to have seen a fairer process in them obtaining the award.

Also, your comments about Sting- why do you think he is a worthy winner of the lifetime achievement award? I know he has dabbled in folk and has some folk influences, but not as much so some other people. Anyway, I'm pretty sure they have tried to award Sting the lifetime achievement award, but he wouldn't have turned up...they would at least want to give the award to someone who would turn up! In my opinion, the lifetime achievement award should go to someone who has, in their lifetime and over a long period of time, contributed a lot to folk music; not just through music but through writing and programming. A worthy winner, I think, would be Martin Carthy. But that's just me. And I don't think Martin Carthy would pull in public interest, thus the funding wouldn't be as great, thus the awards couldn't be televised...

I would also like to point out that all of my posts are based on my opinions and assumptions. A lot of posters here seem to give the impression that they know what goes on behind the scenes at a more personal level. Maybe they do, but I don't, and I don't want anyone to get confused!

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:20 AM

Ewan McLennan...Faversham Folk Club 23th Feb. Come one come all.
Al

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:21 AM

Thank you, STM x

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:40 AM

Another reason why Duncan and his Band should be up there in The Folk Awards....

The Duncan McFarlane Band - The Twohey Step

Now, I'm sorry, but can someone please explain to me why Bands as great as this are NOT being even nominated?

If someone 'official' could explain it to me, from the Smooth Ops team that would be even better, or from the fRoots board...that would be good too..

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:09 AM

Duncan McFarlane Band always finish off the Moonbeams Wold Top Festival every year - it's a fantastic finale. This year Oysterband are also at Moonbeams, plus lots of other great artists. AND it's held in a brewery in the middle of the beautiful Yorkshire Wolds. My highlight of the year!

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:19 AM

That sounds great! How I envy you living oop north, levels..

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:53 AM

Lizzie's point is perfectly valid. If you believe that awards for folk music have any value for the music (I don't personally, but that's just my opinion), then surely those who do believe in it should know (a) who the decision makers are and (b) what criteria are being applied?

So, do the criteria include such things as: sales of albums/downloads? appearances live and/or in the broadcast media? influence on the development of the music? 'popularity' (measured by...)? recommendations by fellow artists? Etc., etc.

I would also say that - contrary to what sfmans believes, this thread is not giving "Bellowhead their traditional Mudkicking". I, like many another poster here, enjoy Bellowhead's music - I have all their CDs - and I don't believe this thread has actually much to do with Bellowhead or any other band. It's about the transparency or otherwise of a music award process - which is worth debating.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:55 AM

I have actually seen a list (somewhere) of the judges for the awards. Nearly all BBC people. Fair enough I think, It's their gig after all! They are funding it. And, a public vote would be a nightmare to organise, and would any of the artists be in the town (or indeed the country) on the day of the ceremony?
It's not an event that can be organised on the day. It takes months.
Of course, I didn't agree with some of the awards, and did others. It has always been that way. I have no problem with the way it works. Of course, there are plenty of artists I would have like to have seen, but, it's got to be a "Radio 2 Friendly" event. Hence Donovan.....
All in all, a nice mix of winners. And it's still great publicity. Just because your favourite artist didn't win or wasn't nominated, doesn't mean anything...I didn't win either! Am I Bovvered?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:01 AM

The BBC run many programmes FILLED with public votes, Ralph, and those votes are counted within hours. There's no problem with it at all. The public vote was removed from the Folk Awards for one reason and that was because a band who, at the time, was NOT accepted by The Folk Establishment, won.

'Best Live Act' was the public vote subject.

After Show of Hands won this, Smooth Ops changed it to 'Best Dance Band' I believe, if my memory serves me correctly....and then the public vote disappeared all together.

Bellowhead won 'Best Live Act' the following year, again, as I recall, despite having only appeared live about 3 or 4 times that year. The public were not allowed to vote for Best Live Act at that time, nor have they been allowed to since, despite being the ones who pay the money to see the performers perform....

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:14 AM

Sorry Lizzie....
Read my post again. It takes months to get artists to be available for the gig...If they are not in town, then they can't perform, obviously...
As an example. Sidmouth Festival last year put on a concert for Nic Jones. Organised by James Fagan. Various artists doing their take on Nics arrangements (Nic was there)
I won't list all the artists, but Nancy and James, Chris Wood, Bandoggs, Martin Simpson, Faustus, Sam Carter, etc etc etc etc...All turned up because, luckily they were all at the festival anyway.
There is a plan to do a similar event in London this spring. The point I'm making is that it can't possibly be the same line-up. It will no doubt be great, but different.
In the same way, you can't throw a gig like the Folk Awards together on the day....It takes months....What would happen if SOH or Reg Meuross were playing a gig in Inverness the night before???
Just be aware that months of work go into the Award ceremony.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:22 AM

Near instant public phone in voting systems and fellow artists accepting awards on behalf of absent winners
seems to be the norm on many other televised showbiz 'popularity' contests, innit...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:28 AM

All a public vote ever proves is which artist has the best mechanism in place to motivate its fan base to vote. Didn't Robbie Williams or someone win best album of all time in a public vote on Radio 1? Mumford & Sons would win a public vote hands down in the folk awards and I don't think anybody would feel they are representative of the music. I think there are something like 130 people who cast their votes in the various categories, all representing different strands of the folk industry with access to a wider pool of music than is readily available to most people and are therefore better placed to introduce the broader public to different music, as we see from Ewan MacLennan's well-deserved Horizon award. Far from being the same old, same old, the likes of Heidi Talbot, Fiddlers Bid, Coope, Boyes & Simpson, Breabach, Fisherman's Friends, Laura Marling, Emily Portman, The Levellers, Fay Hield and Andy Irvine have never been nominated before. Apart from personal taste and prejudice, it would be hard to argue against the merits of Bellowhead as best band after the year they've had or that Hollow Point is the best song of the year or that Gift is the best album of the year.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:36 AM

Point of clarification: the Nic Jones gig was organised by Sidmouth FolkWeek, not by James Fagan. James was brought on board about 6 months into the planning for the event to help. But the event was actually Derek Schofield's idea, and the event at South Bank Centre in May is a SFW production.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:58 AM

"All a public vote ever proves is which artist has the best mechanism in place to motivate its fan base to vote."

conversely

all a panel of industry experts vote may ever prove is which artist has the best & most effective professional PR team
lobbying on its behalf.. apparently..


either way, showbiz awards contests are complete bollocks when all's said and done..

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:12 AM

Hi Guest. I know that Sidmouth Fest and Derek came up with the idea of the NJ gig...But, James had the poisoned chalice of "herding Cats" on the day!
And it went amazingly well, considering the time constraints!
Looking forward to the South Bank re-enactment. I wonder who will be available to play this time?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:16 AM

Well yeah, all awards are complete bollocks, of course they are, but these awards have played a key role in promoting the music to a wider public and have certainly given a major boost to the career of everybody who's ever won one.
Smooth Ops argument for not publishing the names of the 130 or so people who vote for these awards is to protect them from being lobbied/badgered/bribed by these effective professional PR teams of which you speak.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:32 AM

yeah but...

as if the premium PR lobbyists can't earn their fat fees
by targeting who the '130 or so people' are most likely to be.. !!!???

As to the value of awards shows..

I once won a family sized packet of crisps at a holiday camp talent show
but I didn't let the success go to my head..

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:37 AM

Sidmouth also booked the majority of participating artists pretty much before James was involved. But he did a great job of pulling together the playlist and the artists on the day, as you say.

The event at SOuthBank is part of a weekend curated by Stewart Lee as part of their Festival of Britain celebrations. They got in touch with Sidmouth and asked the festival to reprise the event, which we were very happy to do. Some of the original artists are returning, and there are some new big names as well. It's a great lineup, which will be announced very soon as part of the Stewart Lee weekend, which is when the tickets will also go on sale.

Joan (from my phone)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:51 AM

Joanie. That was the point I was making. The success of the Nic Jones concert was due in no small part, to the fact that nearly all of the artists were already appearing at the festival...(I think that maybe one came down especially to play at the gig, for the life of me I can't remember who!)
I would certainly not deny that it was you and Derek who came up with the concept thouhg.....Mmmmm Wonder what you're planning for this year!
Will have to be good to top that one! Lol!
Looking forward to the South Bank gig as well.
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:58 AM

Punkfolkrocker, that's one of the reasons that's been cited for keeping the list of judges relatively quiet. I'm not actually aware of much in the way of overt lobbying, and if anything, in my experience it is frowned upon.

I don't know what list Ralph has seen, but most of the people I know who are judges don't work for the BBC. They are event programmers and critics. They are largely people who attend maybe a dozen or more festivals a year and maybe listen to 100+ CDs, which might be one of the reasons the BBC uses a panel of judges rather than a public vote. Perhaps they feel that the average person doesn't get quite as much exposure to music. I also know several people who are regularly on the panel, yet never get invited to the awards. Dunno what that actually proves, but I just thought I'd chuck it in.

Joan (from my phone)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 09:15 AM

Whether you like them or not, I think it is self-evident that the Folk Awards serve a useful purpose in marketing 'folk' to a wider audience, but even more to folk's own audience. Many an upandcoming artist has received a leg-up from being nominated, and this in turn gets them onto the festival organisers radar. Those that win no doubt can hike their performance fees as well(cynic that I am)!

There has been an allegation on this thread that they are 'rigged' and in some way corrupt. That is not my understanding, and I believe there is a statement of how it works on the SmoothOps website (or maybe the BBC).

To save you the trouble of looking, here is a potted version.

There is a panel of folk's movers and shakers (something over 100 in number I believe). These are invited to take part, and it's probably not that difficult to guess who some of them are - journalists, radio presenters, festival organisers, record company people etc. The names are not published for reasons already stated, ie to prevent lobbying. There is some rotation of members I believe - although I know several who have been on it for years, I also know of at least one who was asked for the first time this year.

The panel members are sent a questionnaire showing the categories, and are asked to nominate 3 names per category. These are then all added up and the ones with most nominations get on the short list of 4 per category. If enough panel members nominate somebody obscure, they will get in the short list.

The same panel members are then given the short list and asked to vote on it.

The only thing you could argue that was wrong about this is that, statistically, the already well-known are likely to get a dispropotionate number of votes. It's all about getting on the short list.

So, why is it that various outsiders have featured in the nominations over the years, including some who have won? Well, I put this down to many of the panel members being just as contrary as the people who post on this forum - they are fed up with the same old same old and think, "Let's give old so-and-so a chance this year".

I can't say any of it keeps me awake at night with excitement, but it is no more cringeworthy than most other Awards shindigs - what about Ricky Gervais's recent efforts, and have you seen the Country Music ones?!

And before you ask, no, I'm not on the panel!

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 09:33 AM

I think Bellowhead deserve all the praise heaped upon them. They are a great band.
But back to the question of voting. Why not invite votes from those who review new CDs in the music press? They get great exposure to new music. There are plenty of them out there and they have a much wider knowledge of what is being performed than most programme producers. I realise Joan has suggested music critics as panellists - perhaps we are talking about the same group of people?
I do think that the whole "folk" thing on the media is rather narrow in its scope. It has become a great deal narrower since Verity Sharp left Late Junction and Mick Peat's folk show was axed.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 10:36 AM

Just clarifying Graham's post and helping to explain Ralph's for Joan's benefit.

There are two groups - a large panel (130+ as described by Graham, names withheld), and a small committee (less than a dozen, mainly BBC suits, named).

The panel vote on the open awards, in the manner Graham explains, and the committee vet the panel process, and chose the closed awards.

The panel stage is very flabby. Graham's probably right about people making random choices (panellists have told me that often they haven't got a clue who to vote for), and the occasional anomalies can be explained by the fact that the full list of nominees runs to many hundreds, so very few people get into double figures. Best Artist could be up there with as few as a dozen votes out of 130 (The White Hare only got 8) - and there are scores of un-nominated runners up (I've even been one myself - which just goes to show how flat and wide the pancake is). Smoops say this guarantees a good wide trawl, but I think the cone needs to be sharpened somehow, because the figures would look a bit silly if they were announced along with the winners.

It's been suggested that artist managements might do back-scratching deals, but it's probably not worth their trouble, so I doubt there's much of it, if any.

I would guess (not because I know, but because it would be sensible) that the committee would choose between any tied nominations. Whether any other titivating of the panel awards takes place at the vetting stage is anyone's guess. I've suggested that the committee should publicly claim a right to veto anyone who's won recently, or who has been accidentally nominated in the wrong category (duo/group for example).

The committee awards are then to ensure a balanced, successful event.

You can apply to be in the panel, and it does contain a lot of reviewers. But none who are also artists - because we're excluded. (An agents may no longer vote for their own artists).

A bigger panel with narrower entry qualifications would be an improvement, as would a smaller mercury-style panel.

A fully public vote would probably return Mumford and Sons for Best Act every year along with a lot of young singer-songers who no-one here has ever heard of.

Tom

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM

Is there any evidence to back up the claim that the public vote was stopped because the award organisers didn't approve of the winner? If there is, the people who make this assertion should really back up their allegations with evidence. If there is no evidence, then it amounts to no more than pure speculation and conspiracy-theory-mongering and its not very helpful to keep repeatly making such a claim year after year.

The Radio Two Folk Awards does a very good job of bringing Radio Two-friendly folk music to a Radio Two audience. It even manages to sneak in some stuff that is well beyound the parameters of what Radio Two would usually feature. Personally, though, I'm looking forward to the Six Music Folk Awards. ;-)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 12:42 PM

Chris Wood's award made it onto the Radio 4 news that night. QED

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:04 PM

it has been said several times on this thread and othes that the R2 folk awards are bringing Folk Music to a wider audience, Yes they are how ever on the basis of the Live acts (which i enjoyed) I would have had the radio at work taken off me by my R1/Galaxy radio listening staff. I do tend to have to the same issue on a Wednesday night when MH plays alot of ballads and long traditional songs, I get the wtf are we listening too now. However when MH plays the more up beat stuff I get "well this is alright " kind of comments

So do Smooth Ops /Radio 2 /Folk awards really do any thing to bring Folk Music to the wider audience

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 09:34 PM

So if the awards are 'judged' by such a small panel (130+ according to a previous post) perhaps the Bounty Hounds should be even more proud of the fact that we've had over 6 times more plays than Bellowhead on the Sweeps Festival Myspace page!

John

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 11:13 AM

I think Tom and Graham some it up admirably.

There have been other public votes apart form the one in 2004 - the following year for example Whapweasel were chosen by public vote.

I think the BBC/Smooth Ops do their best to see that the event is representative of the current scene/festival bookings/record sales/folk club bookings/radio plays/that is the complex "folk scene" as we know it. It is not as easy as making it a public vote. Truly it isn't.

And I have all Bellowhead's records and none of those done by the Bounty Hounds - which of course applies to many people and why I might click on the myspace which I haven't.

I have explained to Lizzie that she should get out there. Run a folk club/get involved with your local community radio station and set up your own programme.

Then you could play whatever records you liked. And I have offered before about how to put a radio show together, what you need and how to structure it.

Or of course you can sit and whinge on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 02:55 PM

Folkiedave, Just a flippant comment, I'm not deluding myself, I know the reason is that visitors to that site are looking to find out about the bands they have not heard of. (We are working on that though) However, still a nice little fact for us to quote, and can't miss an opportunity for gratuitious self promotion.

If a little traditionally based folk/rock is your taste, go have a listen. www.bountyhounds.co.uk

John

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 03:23 PM

Here you go, John...
The Bounty Hounds

You make fine music, that's for sure... :0)

I can't seem to get your Myspace page to work though...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 03:28 PM

"...There have been other public votes apart form the one in 2004 - the following year for example Whapweasel were chosen by public vote..."


They stopped the Best Live Act from being the one the public voted for because a band they didn't want to win, won.

They then went on to have a public vote for Best Dance Band, I believe, knowing, of course, that the band they didn't want to win couldn't get voted for that one, because....they're not a dance band.

The public vote has never again been allowed to be for Best Live Act, nor will it, because.....the very band they don't want to win, will do so, instead of the band the 'judges' continue to vote for, year upon year......

I think it's called 'favouritism'....and it's only permitted if Smooth Ops and The Folk Mafia so wish it...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for the kind words and the link, Lizzie. Just had a look at our myspace page, seems to be working here, but lots of strange things happening with myspace at the moment!

John

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:24 PM

Got you!

The Bounty Hounds - Myspace page


My feet are tapping, along with my fingers, to The Bonny Ship, the Diamond, as I'm writing this... :0)

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:37 PM

Out from the shadows – for what it's worth, ladies and gents, I'm on the folk awards panel. Don't hold it against me: I never asked to be on, and I usually don't vote (often I'm unfamiliar with the nominees, and I'm frankly not a fan of competitions). But I still get the call, year on year. I suspect I'm on because I publish a folk magazine here in Yorkshire, which would suggest that the panel is probably composed of activists and folk professionals – organisers, journalists, and so on.

I did vote for Bellowhead once...

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:12 AM

They stopped the Best Live Act from being the one the public voted for because a band they didn't want to win, won.

Surprising then that Show of Hands won two awards last year.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:33 PM

"I never asked to be on, and I usually don't vote (often I'm unfamiliar with the nominees)" (from 2 posts ago.)

Well shame on you for not bothering to keep abreast of folk music nationally, then.

It must be quite a magazine! Tell me, had you heard of anybody other than Bellowhead?

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:57 AM

The idea that someone can keep abreast of what's happening nationally I find unfair to say the least.

I find it hard to keep up with what's happening within thirty miles of Sheffield. The thing that helps me is Raymond's magazine.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:34 PM

Fair comment, and I don't know Raymond or his magazine - and don't intend to cause offence.

However, the nominees for the various awards were nearly all well known.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM

lets think positive.

You DO see some bloody good bands.

Perhaps they need to initiate another award, The Band that's not Perhaps Quite as Good as Bellowhead But They Deserve Some Recognition Award.

Subject: RE: Bellowhead Win at BBC2 Folk Awards
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:49 PM

Yes, I'm suitably shamefaced – at not having encountered Ewan McLennan, for instance. Must keep up...

But the bottom line for me is, competitions encourage the notion that music making is a race to the finishing line. Sport, not art. I like both, but prefer not to confuse one with the other.

pip pip!