Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks

Subject: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:54 PM

Well, I rang the box office at The Phoenix, Exeter, this morning for three tickets for their gig in March. I was stunned to discover that this gig is standing-only. Well, that put paid to me for a start, what with my dodgy joints, and the other two who were coming with me are both over 60. When I asked the box office lady how come a folk gig in a venue with seating is standing-only, she told me that the Phoenix had no control over the matter, it was what the artists insisted on and it was done to pack more people in and augment ticket sales and that they'd have no problem selling out (I noted that tickets weren't exactly cheap at fifteen quid - fine - but fifteen quid to stand up??)

Nice one, girls. Ageism rules OK!

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Tangledwood
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:28 PM

Well, I wonder? I went to the Unthanks concert here in Brisbane a couple of weeks ago and everybody there had a seat. The only time I've heard of standing only was at a concert last year, can't remember the artist, and it was found out that it was the promoter pushing to pack more in. Nobody from my circle of friends went. Greed will ultimately loose out.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:07 PM

Ring the box office and ask them if they can accommodate a coach party of wheelchair users, then tell them you'll ring back later to confirm the booking.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 12:16 AM

Good for you, Steve. I wouldn't go either.

Making people uncomfortable is not what traditional music is about. Traditional music is one way of being companions.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 02:24 AM

"Making people uncomfortable is not what traditional music is about"
No, but in this case it seems that making as much money as possible is - whatever happened to the good old days of bums on seats??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 02:48 AM

Plenty of gigs are standing room only. Venues will make accommodations for people with disabilities - they have to.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:29 AM

But standing-room-only cos the SEATS have already been sold, not because there weren't any. Not allowing any of your audience to sit down is just manipulative, and sends a clear message.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:38 AM

Shame on them, it's predjudiced against disabled people and must surely be against the law.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:45 AM

I'd say for various reasons including safety and visibiloty, the wheelies would have to be seated up the front - how much is a wheelchair to hire?

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,S.T.M.
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:47 AM

Hold your horses guys, this was probably just a misunderstanding. I very much doubt that they would demand that everyone was standing, and even if someone has- I don't think we should be blaming "the girls" but maybe management or and agent. It's very unfair just to jump down throats in this way.

Simply ring the venue, explain that you need to have a seat for health reasons and I'm sure they will accommodate you.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:53 AM

It occurs to me that if the "seated" venue is not big enough then they ought to be in larger venues. That way no-one gets upset.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:54 AM

I think wheelchair-users would probably be accommodated - but what about the rest of their fans? Including those who have difficulty standing for that long even if they're not actually confined to a wheelchair.

Unless these artists give a convincing alternative reason as to why they have made this rule, it tells me that the comfort of the people who have travelled and paid to see them is not a priority in their thinking. And if this conclusion wrong, they would then need to explain why.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:04 AM

Whether this stipulation was made by the girls or their management doesn't change the fact of having to stand. It's still - IMHO - poor treatment of a paying audience, and I can't see any reason for it except profit-driven ones.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,Graham Ward
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:04 AM

For the sake of those jumping to conclusions, there is disabled access at the Phoenix. They have a number of spaces for wheelchair users, and offer free seats for those who need personal assistance.
This is a major tour; some gigs are all standing, many offer a choice. "Manipulative"? "Augmenting ticket sales"? How about simply ensuring that as many people as possible get to see them?
Not everyone going to a folk gig wants to sit down in a comfy chair, and £15 isn't particularly expensive for one of the best live bands around - in any genre.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,Graham Ward
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:08 AM

By the way, The Unthanks is more than "the girls", and if you're looking for a mystery manager, he's playing the piano, and married to Rachel. Adrian's email address is on the band's website; suggest that you ask him about this.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:08 AM

> offer free seats for those who need personal assistance

So someone who wants/needs to sit down can do so?

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Bainbo
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:15 AM

That's curious. Are they insisting on it, I wonder? I clicked on the sites of a few other venues the Unthanks are visiting. Although I by no means saw all of them, I didn't find any other standing-only ones.

But I noticed that Nottingham Glee Club has the ability to do standing-only if it wants, as that's the arrangement for 2-Tone legends The Beat. The Unthanks' gig there, however, carries the symbol for "unallocated seating".

Quite often, if there's a standing area available for a gig I'll book for that, as it's sometimes fun to have a bit of a dance instead of shuffling in your seat. Probably not for the Unthanks, though. And the venues where I've been able to do that always have seating available too, for those who prefer.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: gnomad
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:24 AM

As a child, about 45 years ago, I attended one of the Promenade concerts at the Albert Hall, folks sat around on the floor until it started, but were then required to stand up. As I was too small to see anything anyway I sat among the adult legs and heard the concert just the same, and my Mum (who at 5ft0ins could also see very little) came close to thumping the jobsworth who tried to stop me. I don't know whether they still enforce standing, I doubt they would get away with it now, but we never went as promenaders again.

A wheelchair requires space to stand, and I suppose that the organisers could just allow wheelchair users to be in among the rest. They would get the same view that any height-lacking person would have, the ultimate in non-discrimination, it could be argued. Please note that I do not advocate this, and would be surprised if no special arrangements were in hand. The whole idea seems based on the pop-concert model, but then that is what some of the new acts seem to want, I don't.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:25 AM

Why on earth is disabled access even an issue here?
It should go without saying that those in wheelchairs should be accommodated - as other's have suggested, that is the law of the land.
It's the 'pack the punters in like sardines so we can make losta wonga' philosophy which is so bloody offensive - whether demonatrated by the artists or their managers.
If it is the latter, that could be quickly cleared up by the Unthanks (what an apt name) finding a more compassionate agency to represent them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: John J
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:33 AM

Bellowhead visit a concert hall local to me from time to time. The first time they came it was a 'fully seated' performance, since then it's always been standing only.

I've got knackered knees, the Mrs JJ is slightly disabled and is unable to stand for very long although she doesn't need a wheelchair.

Sadly we don't get to see Bellowhead locally any more.

JJ

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 05:36 AM

They have a number of spaces for wheelchair users, and offer free seats for those who need personal assistance.

You don't need to be in a wheelchair to find it difficult to stand for the length of a concert.

Not everyone going to a folk gig wants to sit down in a comfy chair

Patronizing shit. Steve wasn't offered any kind of chair at all, let alone a comfy one.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:02 AM

Steve has not asked the right questions and quite honestly is being unfair by posting this thread. I decided to give them a ring and see what they had available other than standing as I suffer with Arthritus and have circulation issues in my legs, but am not using a wheelchair, which I explained to them. They were extremely helpful and gave me this information.

So, let's get the facts straight.

They have a balcony box at the back of the auditorium that accomodates 10 fixed seats and space behind for wheelchair users. They have a stair lift for anybody that cannot walk up the stairs.

Currently, they have 6 fixed seats still available as at 10:45 AM Thursday 17th Feb and space for wheelchairs.

You need to explain that you are unable to stand, but are not in a wheelchair to be able to book the seats.

I hope that helps a bit.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:21 AM

"Bellowhead visit a concert hall local to me from time to time. The first time they came it was a 'fully seated' performance,"

I have to say that I'd be very disappointed if I wasn't able to get up and pogo to Bellowhead - that's part of the fun for me but, fortunately, I still have full use of my legs (when sober, at least). For bands like them a half-and-half arrangement would meet everyone's requirements. I don't know about the Unthanks - I'm not a fan so I wouldn't be going anyway.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,Captain farrell
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:21 AM

This is a serious issue.We have been to quite a few gigs and standing only was not made clear.When you consider the average age of the audience/ticket prices the least you can expect is a.comfortable seat b.good sound c.good view d. perfectly clear that there are support acts on the bill or not.e.dont let people people stand in front of the seated audience.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:34 AM

OK Arthur, I'll expand on the conversation I had with the lady in the box office, which was quite lengthy - your criticism is covered, I assure you. I explained that I was unable to stand for the duration of a gig (I'm by no means wheelchair-bound, however, so wheeelchair access isn't applicable in my own case). She said there was a limited number of seats for disabled people and she would find me one. But when I told her that three of us wanted to go she said that finding three seats (two of which would be for my non-disabled companions, though, as I said, they are over 60) would not be possible. Well I wanted to take one of the two people as a birthday treat (the other being my wife), and there's no way that we would want to have been separated in any way, and I'm not the sort of bloke anyway who could cope with the privilege (even had it been offered, which it wasn't) of three of us smugly sitting down when most of the rest of the audience, some of whom might be at least equally deserving, were standing. My opening post relates accurately the reason she gave for the gig being standing-only. Another slightly off-putting aspect for us, all of whom would have had to face a fairly long drive home afterward (55 miles for me), was that the doors don't open until 8.30. We could have lived with that and I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but there is a support act as well as the Unthanks and I can't imagine what time it might finish. So I did ask all the right questions, Arthur, which I hope you'll now accept.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:37 AM

And I should apologise to Jack for not mentioning the offer of one seat just for me which renders one line of his post inapplicable through no fault of his own.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:46 AM

Is it just us ex-punks who find this whole thread slightly weird?

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 06:56 AM

Ah Ok Steve. Fair comment and my apologies.

It is a big isuue, when to all intents and purposes, you look fit enough, but in reality have a disabilty like what you or I have.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:03 AM

Your response does highlight the crux of the issue, Spleen. This strategy says a lot about who the Unthanks think their audience is. For a lot of people under 50 who cut their teeth on the mainstream live music scene, seated gigs are weird. They are the kind of thing your parents, or people who enjoy classical music, expect. When I first started going to folk festivals, I found seated concert marquees very strange and somewhat staid, though I came round.

I can only think that the Unthanks reckon that the majority of their audience is both from a slightly younger generation, and perhaps a bit of a crossover audience as well; ie, not pure folkies.

It's a risky strategy; I get why Bellowhead do it - it's the nature of the music. But with a band that's more contemplative and doesn't require jigging about, it's an intriguing decision.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:29 AM

Ageist greedy bunch of shits,
Sounds a good reason to give them a miss

Must try and get a couple more verses!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,davemc
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:41 AM

The Unthanks are obviously just maximising the moolah. Their wispy vocals are hardly an act most people would want to dance to.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:45 AM

Is there a correlation between the kind of places people drink in and their choice of concert venue?

If I don't see a free seat in a pub (and, further, a free seat that isn't against the bar and isn't a high stool) I walk out. And I find all-standing gigs uncomfortable, as well as rather silly if people aren't dancing.

The generation that likes all-standing gigs also drinks in places like Wetherspoons.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 07:48 AM

From what I've seen of them I like them and I will definitely look out for future gigs (seated ones, naturally). I'm a bit disappointed by this and, to me, it somehow doesn't chime very well with the sort of people-centred, more sensitive ethos that you might expect, er, folk music to embrace.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:10 AM

My sympathies, Steve. I understand your dilemma. I've suffered from sciatica for quite a few years and - though I'm not in any way disabled - no matter who or what the concert is, I will not attend one where I can't sit for some of the time. I'm happy to bop around for quite a bit of an evening, but continuous standing is impossible without back pain. Just a fact of life. When I play at a band ceilidh gig, I stand to play for the dances, then sit down between tunes while the caller puts the dancers through their paces.

I've missed some potentially good performances by great artists through it, but I just say - another time...

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:12 AM

IMHO having seen them live, they are deffo Concert style, not standing style.

I like them very much, but the intimate concert is the way.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:19 AM

A few years back I saw Capercaillie at an all-standing venue, and the discomfort definitely detracted from the music.

As others have said you can understand it for Bellowhead or Salsa Celtica, but ... The Unthanks?

All very odd.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,Old Sceptic
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:21 AM

I wonder if there any conclusions to be drawn that they don't seem to be on any folk festivals these days. Last time I saw them at a folk fest, half the audience left out of boredom.

Maybe they are more exciting these days, and get the audience jumping about.

It seems they are marketing themselves away from the 'folk' label and are aiming at a more crossover audience.

Nothing wrong with that as such - makes good business sense. Let's face it - the Laura Marling/Mumfords audience is potentially much bigger.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:23 AM

The generation that likes all-standing gigs also drinks in places like Wetherspoons

Jack - are you trying to corner the market in sweeping generalisations? Anyway, my local Wetherspoons is always rammed with full-time pissheads in theiir 60s and over...

I agree with you, Ruth, about the seated festival concerts. I found them odd and - yes - staid at first, but have gradually (and slightly reluctantly) got used to them. Of course, there is another good argument for seated festival marquees and that's to stymie the attempts of the lawnchair massive to stake out a huge area of territory for themselves, their mates and their picnic mats and hampers... and even in some cases face away from the stage as a part of their territorial pissings.

Your description of the Unthanks audience refects my own experience of seeing them live... last time (not including festivals) it was at the Band on the Wall in Manchester. I didn't go upstairs where the seats were, though. It might have been a more folky crowd up there than in the mainly standing area downstairs. Next time it'll be Manchester Cathedral. Plenty of seats there, though I reckon they'll be hard enough that people will be glad for an excuse to stand...

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 08:57 AM

"If it is the latter, that could be quickly cleared up by the Unthanks (what an apt name) finding a more compassionate agency to represent them."
Jim Carroll

I believe their keyboard player (Rachel's husband) is the band's manager and exclusive agent.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:12 AM

the Unthanks (what an apt name)
Well, Carol, (what an appropriate name), it is the name they were born with so I reckon they should use it. Their dad George Unthank was (is?) a member of that very fine folk band, The Keelers and the sisters have grown up in the music. Don't like them as singers myself, but seeing the pair of them running a festival clog/step dance workshop to around 100 mainly teenage, mainly female participants made me realise what an important job they do. The enthusiasm and skill with which they conducted their workshop won my admiration.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,mattkeen
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:12 AM

I have been to that venue several times and none of them were seated concerts - it may be just the venue you know

Corn Exchange in Cambridge is the same.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:22 AM

"I believe their keyboard player (Rachel's husband) is the band's manager and exclusive agent."
Which makes the suggestion made that it may be the action of their manager somewhat superfluous.
".......The enthusiasm and skill with which they conducted their workshop won my admiration......"
None of which excuses their attitude towards a potential audience who may not wish to, or be able to stand throughout their performance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:26 AM

Some interesting posts here. And there's nothing that gets a folky audience arguing like the sit v stand debate - all good training for Cambridge.
Whilst I was accused of patronising shit for saying it, but not everyone wants to sit at a folk concert (whatever that means). I prefer the atmosphere at standing gigs - OK, I'm never going to jump around watching the Unthanks in the way I will for Bellowhead, but I feel more involved, I like to be able to get right to the front - and even a front row seat makes me feel like I'm a passive consumer, not that I'm part of the experience.
I saw Steve Earle twice on his last (acoustic) tour, once all sitting, once (mostly) standing. Again, not the most dance-friendly artist - but the atmosphere between the two shows was completely different - and undoubtedly better - when we were standing.
I don't think the Unthanks can win here - already dismissed by many traditionalists as not being folky enough, now they get condemned as money grabbers for targeting a younger audience more used to standing at concerts.
Someone said they don't play folk festivals any more - nonsense. They played Cambridge and Moseley last year (to excellent reviews) as well as the less folky Glastonbury, Green Man and End of the Road.
In an ideal world every venue would have a choice of standing or sitting. Even Bellowhead are playing a short series of all seater events this spring in the interests of those who can't or don't want to stand (my small kids are refusing to go - having danced themselves to exhaustion the last time they saw them, they can't see the point in sitting).

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:43 AM

Forgive me for not particularly being in sympathy with a folk band - any band, probably - who "target younger audiences." I suppose they feel they don't need my sympathy.

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 09:46 AM

Word is the Manchester Cathedral gig will be standing only, but the misericords will be available for those who want to look as if they're standing but can't take the pace.

Suitably beguiled by their contribution to Oak Ash Thorn, we bought The Bairns the other day, & a quite stunning piece of work it is - though their version of Sea Song has a lot to live up to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66obirsT8hI

They don't make 'em like that any more - check Dave Stewart's organ solo which comes in over Hugh Hopper's fuzz bass at arount 2.45. Rarely does music get any better...

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: tritoneman
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:02 AM

This is a debate that can go on for ever. It's clearly a case of not being able to please all of the people all of the time. I'm about to hit 60 but rather like the atmosphere of stand up gigs - depending on who's performing. I don't think I'd want to sit down still at a Bellowhead gig
but enjoy sitting down to listen to people like Martin Carthy or Karine Polwart. What I consider to be the best Show of Hands gig that I've been to was a stand up gig at the Exeter Phoenix.
I suppose the only real compromise is, as has been suggested earlier, to make sure that there is plenty of provision for people who can't, dont' want to or find it difficult, to stand. Life gets so complicated.....

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:51 AM

6 seats available for people who need them, SIX is that a joke, they obviously only want the audience to be exclusively the ' jump up and down on the spot who think it's dancing type. '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: stallion
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 10:58 AM

The Duchess in York is all standing accept for a couple of "blisters" either side of the main standing area which are remote from the stage area and one needs to bag one early. The ceiling is very low, barely 2.4 metres, the whole place is painted black or very similiar, the sound reproduction is only as good as your sound engineer can get it as, acoustically, is dead as soon as the standing crowd fill the stage area with the sound compressed into a half meter, metre if everyone is small, above everyones head. I have been to three "folk" concerts there one big name whose sound system was so set up they sounded like a heavy metal thrash band (which I think the venue is highly suitable for) and the others were local bands using the venues sound engineer who obviously had never done anything other than thrash bands " who needs to hear the singer " . In my opinion the beer is awful, very expensive and i would not pay for a ticket to get into a folk concert there (all my tickets were complimentary). I don't know if staging "folk" artists at the Duchess is a money making thing, I doubt it, I think it is a genuine attempt to bring an eclectic mix of music to larger venues that are not concerts halls but sadly the venue is most unsuitable for anything other than moshing about in front of a drum and bass band (having got pissed before you got in there)

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:01 AM

are ticket holders strictly prohibited from taking in their own fold-up garden furniture ?

Subject: RE: Why I won't be seeing the Unthanks
From: tritoneman
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 11:05 AM

are ticket holders strictly prohibited from taking in their own fold-up garden furniture ?



Probably. They'll wheel out some Health & Safety risk assessment 'concern' etc etc. Nice idea though!