Subject: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Philippa Date: 12 Sep 99 - 02:27 PM It's in the database okay, but there are no background notes. What is the derivation and function of this odd song? |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: John Hindsill Date: 12 Sep 99 - 03:34 PM Philippa-- Your choice of the word "odd" seems quite apt. Here is what I found in the commentary of the booklet which accompanied the "The Folk Box," Elektra, 1964. Jean Ritchie calls it "[a] strange combination of nonsense words and ethereal tune." It is her opinion that its origin is in the Mummers' Plays of England. It almost has the feel of a 60s psychedelic trip! Incidentally, the air was used by Bob Dylan for his words, "Masters of War". Hope this gets you on the road to its origins.---John |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Date: 12 Sep 99 - 03:47 PM I knew that but I want to know more! |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Date: 12 Sep 99 - 04:03 PM "Nottamun Town" or "Nottingham Fair" seems to be derived from "Teague's Ramble" in the Scare Songs 1 file at www.erols.com/olsonw. "Paddy Backward" is an imitation of "Teague's Ramble" without direct borrowing of lines. See the Irish tunes index at the same website for an early title for the tune "Teague's Ramble", and sources of copies of the tune. |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Date: 12 Sep 99 - 04:42 PM The "Nottingham Fair" version is in Randolph's 'Ozark Folksongs', II, #446; six verses with tune. A bawdy parody collected by Randolph is given under the same title in Randolph-Legman's 'Roll Me In Your Arms', #83 (same tune given). |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Alan of Australia Date: 13 Sep 99 - 12:15 AM Thanks Bruce. |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: GeorgeH Date: 13 Sep 99 - 12:46 PM I don't want to appear pessimistic (as if I could!!), but I've seen this discussed several times, and never ended up any the wiser. Best just regard it as a find song . . It amazes me how powerful (emotionally) it is, despite its meaning being obscure. Mind you, not as powerful as Martin Simpson's performance of "Masters of War" . . . G. |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Date: 13 Sep 99 - 11:51 PM Here's a bit of prose, from the 17th century, along the same lines as "Nottamun Town" and "Teague's Ramble". See also "Tom Tell-truth" and notes of traditional versions at the file and website noted above
It was the last Monday Morning at four o'clock in the afternoon before Sun-rise, going over High-gate Hill in a Boat; I met with a man I overlooked, I asked him, if the Old Woman was dead that was drowned at Ratcliff Highway a fortnight ago; He told me he could not tell; But if I went a little further, I should meet with two men a Horse-back on a mare, in a Blew jerkin, and a pair of Freestone Breeches, & they would give me true intelligence, so when I came up with the fellows, they thought I was a Hector which came to rob them, and therefore ran from me, but I furiously pursued before them. Their horse for haste died under them, so that one of them for madness drew forth his sword and kill'd him, the horse for vexation seeing himself dead, ran away as fast as he could, leaving them to go on foot upon another horse back Forth miles. Friends said I, I mean you no harm, but pray inform me whether or no the old Woman be Dead that was drownd at Ratcliff high-way a fortnight ago, they all told me they could not tell, but if I went a little further I should meet with two men driving an empty Cart full of Apples, & a millstone in the midst, and they would give me true Intelligence; but when I came up with them, they could not satisfie me neither, but told me if I went to the water side there lived one Sir John Vangs that would give me intelligence. So going up to ye water side; I hoopt & hollowed, but could make nobody see: At last I heard six country lads & lasses fast asleep, playing at ninepins under a Haycock made of Pease straw, in the midst of the Thames, & eating of rost bag pudding freezing hot; but at last I met with two Watermen, that carried me clean over the water, and landed me up to the knees in mud, and when we were in the midst of the Thames in Ratcliff High-way, one of the she-watermen espied a swan, and swore if she had it at home, it would make a Goose-pye....... [Initially a prose broadside in 1660, then later as a chapbook.] |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: guinan@informatik.uni-freiburg.de Date: 14 Sep 99 - 10:51 AM I'm lookin for the lyrics of a song from Co. Wexford, in Ireland, which, as far as I recall, is set at the period of the 1798 rebellion. I first heard it sung by Paddy Berry, himself from Wexford. Can anybody help me? |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Philippa Date: 14 Sep 99 - 11:03 AM Guinan, what on earth does your request have to do with Nottamun town? Your asking in the wrong thread!/to the rest of you, thanks for your responses |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Doug Olsen Date: 14 Sep 99 - 04:37 PM Bert Jansch did a fine recording of Nottamun Town on the album "Jack Orion" ca 1970. I seem to recall that it's one of many English songs that died out in England and only stayed alive in Appalachia. And the answer to "What does it all mean?" is Mr Natural's answer (IMHO). |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Date: 14 Sep 99 - 05:32 PM The English have a good analogue.
"A shoulder of mutton jumped over from France" is very similar in style to "Nottamun Town". The verse form is identical. Contributed by Cecil Sharp to Journal of the Folk Song Society #20 (1916). Another version is "As I was going to Banbury", in Sharp, Vaughn Williams et. al., A Selection of English Folk Songs. It is also in Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folksongs". This is a traditional form of "Tom Tell-truth" in the Scarce Songs 1 file at www.erols.com/olsonw [The traditional versions aren't there because I don't know if they are still copyrighted.]
A similar song in Gaelic is "Amhran na mBeag" (Nonsense Song) in The Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, #20, p. 23, 1923.
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Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Date: 14 Sep 99 - 06:11 PM A Shoulder of Mutton Jumped over from France. As I was a-walking along in the fields
On top of the Steeple, O what should I see
When the codlings were ripe they began to fall;
They killed a man when he was dead
And in his head they found a spring
Each salmon was as big as an elf
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Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Martin _Ryan Date: 14 Sep 99 - 06:41 PM Guinan (that wouldn't be "Jagger Guinan" by any chance?) Asking for a 1798 song by Paddy Berry is a bit like asking for an aria from Pavarotti! Take Philipa's advice, start another thread, give us a bit more information and we'll see what we can do. Regards |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Date: 14 Sep 99 - 09:02 PM Amhran na mBreag. [JIFSS, #20, p. 23, 1923.] Is greannmhar an an nídh do chím-se ar na bóithribh- Dá bhfeicfá- s'an Mhangarta 'grafadh Mágh Cóna, [place not located
Dá bhfeicafá-sa bricín ag breith coinín i bpoll leis,
Dá bhfeicfá-sa an fhionnóg ar stuaic ag buaint biolair.
Dá bhfeicfá-sa Coraigh ag snámh i mbota bláthaighe,
Do chonnac-sa sceacha gan mhaidí gan deilgne,
[Literal translation in JIFSS]
This is a comical thing that I see on the roads-
You should have seen Mangerton hoeing Magh Cóna,
You should have seen a trout pulling a rabbit into his hole,
You should have seen the crow on the hummock gathering watercress,
You should have seen Cork swimming in a tub of buttermilk,
I saw thorn trees without branches or prickles,
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Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Alan of Australia Date: 15 Sep 99 - 02:48 AM G'day, Just to be a bit trivial, these songs always remind me of the old schoolground ditty "One fine day in the middle of the night".
Cheers, |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Philippa Date: 15 Sep 99 - 06:53 AM we're getting into the realm of nonsense songs in general, though I don't know how much this helps us deal with Nottamun town. The nonsense song that comes to my mind at present is "I'm here because I'm here" with verses such as Never throw a brick at a drowning man If you're close to a grocery store. Just throw him a bar of Sunlight Soap And he can wah himself ashore-i-ah He can wash hinself ashore I understand that song better than I do Nottamun town; the humour is quite clearly in the wordplay, the puns. And it doesn't have the haunting melody of Nottamun town - Bob Dylan choose well. By the way, though I was curt with Guinan above; I did e-mail the interloper with suggestions on looking at the Wexford 1798 examples in the DT and at a songs of 1798 website, as well as a reminder of the usual protocol re starting new threads. I'd prefer this thread not to go too far off the tangent. |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: GeorgeH Date: 15 Sep 99 - 08:24 AM Philippa: Unless you're talking of a different "I'm here because I'm here" then surely it's unusual in being later than most of our nonsense songs (which might be expected to leave its words less confused). I know it as "We're here because we're here" and as a first (?) world war song; hence it's the humour of bored soldiers rather than somthing obscure? But I could be wrong. I often am! George |
Subject: RE: Info request - Nottamun Town From: Jane Bird Date: 15 Sep 99 - 12:07 PM Re: "As I Was A-going to Banbury", I always thought that the last verse was: One of the Salmon as big as an elk. However, I see from the version of this song in the database, and from the earlier quoted "A Shoulder of Mutton Jumped over from France", that it's probably "an elf". Is it just my bad hearing, or does any body else think they've heard an "elk" version of one of these songs? Cheers, |
Subject: Lyr Add: THE GRAY MARE From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:01 PM Here's a related song, from the Library of Congress American Memory collection: THE GRAY MARE. As sung by Bob Hart, at the American Concert Hall, 444 Broadway, N. Y. As I was a walking to Nottingham fair, A riding on horseback upon a gray mare, The mare it was black, but the divil a hair But what was all yaller, upon the gray mare. There was the King, the Queen and a couple of more, A riding on horseback, a walking before; The bells did ring and the people did stare, To see a coach and six horses drawn by a gray mare. It rained and it snowed, I stood out in the storm, With my hat in my hand to keep my head warm. The mare threw me into the ditch, but I mounted again, And on my tiptoes rode o'er the plain. I'll saddle the mare and to fishing I'll go, To fishing I'll go whether or no. If my wagon upsets and my fish it would spill, I'll sell the gray mare, I'll be damned if I will. H. DE MARSAN DEALER IN SONGS TOY BOOKS &C. No 54 CHATHAM. ST N.Y. |
Subject: Lyr Add: THE OLD GRAY MARE From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:02 PM Here's another version from the same collection: THE OLD GRAY MARE. As Sung Originally by W. B. Cavanagh, Comedian, at Barnum's Museum. As I was a going to Nottingham fair, A riding on horseback upon a gray mare, Her color 'twas black, but the divil a hair But what was all yaller, upon my gray mare, My baste she stood still an' pitched me into the 'ditch My skin she did dirty, my clothes she did bruise, But I scalded my saddle, an' I mounted again, And on my tip-toes I rode over the plain. But when I got there not a soul could I see, The streets were a crowded a gazing at me; The bells they did ring, an' the people did stare For to see a coach an' six horses drawn by a gray mare. There was the king, an' the Queen and a company more, A riding on horseback, an' a walking before; There stood a great drummer a bating the drum, With his heels in his pockets before me did run. Then it snowed, an' it blowed, an' it rained, an' I stood in the storm, With my hat in my hand for to keep my head warm. I axed Madam Paul if she'd fancy me now As well as the day that I came from the plough. Then I'll take my black horse, an' a fishing I'll go, An' a fishing I'll go whether or no. My fish it turned over, an' my wagon did spill, I'll sell my gray mare--I'll be damned if I will. H. DE MARSAN. DEALER in SONGS TOY BOOKS &C. No. 54 CHATHAM ST. N.Y. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: dulcimerjohn Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:46 PM Only versions I know are Jean's and Fairport's..Jean also does an old (probably Childe) 'old grey mare'..dulcimerjohn |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:51 PM I asked Ewan MacColl about this song. He said he thought it was about ritual and magic and the festival of fools. he added the Hunchback of Notre dame was very good about the festival of fools. I never read it. I'm just passing on his ideas. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: GUEST,Steve Gardham Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:32 PM Paddy Backwards is probably the most common title for this nonsense song, a very common genre of song in previous centuries. All of these titles are used and they should be considered all one song. Adam Ham Town Crazy Song Paddy's Ramble to London Nottamun Town I'm going up to London Noddingham Town The Lying Song Fair Notamon Fair Notamun Town Fair Nottiman Town Notamun Town Nottaman Town Nottingham Fair Old Gray mare Found on both sides of the Atlantic all of these versions seem to derive from the Pitts broadside 'Paddy's Ramble to London' of which unfortunately I haven't got a copy, but the first line is 'Said Paddy, In Ireland no longer I'd stay'. If anyone has a copy of the broadside text I'd certainly like to see it. Roud number BTW is 1044. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: Darowyn Date: 22 Mar 08 - 11:01 AM I think that the salmon were "as big as an ell" or in modern terms, as long as your arm. The old way of measuring cloth was to stretch it between arms length and your nose. The Anglo Saxon for arm is "ell" (hence "elbow" -the bend in the arm) so before yardsticks were standardised, you would buy cloth by the ell (from the most gorilla-like draper you could find) Cheers Dave |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: Goose Gander Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:32 PM This one from American Memory seems to be a variation of Nottamun Town . . . THAT AWKWARD OLD SONG Bill Jackson Arvin, 1941 I went to the barn my steers to feed -Did ever you hear that awkward old song? I went to the barn my steers to feed I fed 'em my saddle, hung up the feed We'll all sing as awkward as ever we can. I rode into town, walked all of the way -Did ever you hear that awkward old song? I rode into town, walked all of the way I was stifled on dust for it rained all that day We'll all sing as awkward as ever we can. Met the king and the queen, their company was mine -Did ever you hear that awkward old song? Met the king and the queen, their company was mine A-riding on horseback, a-leadin' behind We'll all sing as awkward as ever we can. It rained and it hailed, it blew a great storm -Did ever you hear that awkward old song? It rained and it hailed, it blew a great storm Kept my hat on my arm to keep my head warm We'll all sing as awkward as ever we can. I rode the gray mare with a crease down her back -Did ever you hear that awkward old song? I rode the gray mare with a crease down her back Not a hair on her that wasn't coal black We'll all sing as awkward as ever we can. I rode into town, not a soul did I see -Did ever you near that awkward old song? I rode into town, not a soul did I see Ten thousand people was gazing at me We'll all sing as awkward as ever we can. The Roud Index lists it as 1706, with which I would disagree. Bill Jackson himself in the same collection sings Little Fat Boy/When I Was A Little Boy as Fast as I Could Wad which is much more obviously a variant of Roud 1706. Or so it seems to me. But I'm to Easter celebrations with the family now! |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: Goose Gander Date: 24 Mar 08 - 03:59 PM To hear Nottamun Town sung by Jean Richie, click here and scroll down (track #16). |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: Goose Gander Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:07 PM Adam Ham Town as sung by Ollie Gilbert, Mountain View, Arkansas on August 8, 1969. I'm on my way for Adam Ham town Foot or horse back or on a gray mare With a blaze down 'er face an' streak down 'er back Wasn't a hair on 'er but what was cold black She bucked an' she pitched an' she throwed me in th ditch Dirtyed my clothes an' tore up my skin From th stirrups to th saddle I mounted her again With my ten toes I rode 'er on th plain Met th thief an' th company to Ridin before an' leadin behind Stark naked drummer, beatin his drum With his heels in his pockets, before he run I asked 'im th place that I didn't know where Made 'im so mad he scarcely looked down It made 'im so mad he scarcely looked down But he told me th way for Adam Ham town When I got there not a soul could I see Streets were as crowed, laughin at me Laughin and funin an' make'n their games My shoes were wore out an' my feet was lame Set myself down on a hot brimstone Ten thousand gathered 'round me, I found myself alone It rained and it hailed an' it came a great storm Killed ten thousand that never was born So loaded up my wagon, fish'n I'll go Yes, I will, yes I will, ruther or no My wagon turned over my fish got spilled Kill th ole gray mare, yes I will From the Max Hunter collection. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: pavane Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:26 AM Here is a link to the Pitt broadside mentioned above (Bodleian Ballad library). Paddys Ramble (to London) |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:29 PM Thanks Pavane, Must have missed it when the website was first published. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Nottamun Town From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM Having looked closely at the broadside 'Paddy's Ramble' and about a dozen versions of Nottamun Town, all they have in common is a stanza and a half (excepting Frank Purslow's collated version in The Foggy Dew). My considered opinion is that the Pitts broadside has taken these stanzas from an oral version of 'Nottamun Town' which is earlier, at least 18thc. The main clincher is 'Nottamun Town' is just a collection of nonsense without much of a story whereas in 'Paddy's Ramble' the plot is quite strong, being about his amorous wanderings in England in search of a rich wife and the verses interpolated from NT are quite extraneous to this plot. The style of nonsense in each song is the same which is possibly why they have become crossed. The only record therefore I have of any oral tradition of 'Paddy's Ramble' is the fragments cobbled together by Frank Purslow. Malcolm, we need to go back to the mss again on this one. I fear Frank's been up to his old tricks again! |
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