BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing

Subject: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: lamarca
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 03:50 PM

OK, I had to do it - glad there's now a "BS" prefix available.

My questions for discussion are:
Is singing or making music at home or with friends less common now than it was 25 years, 50 years, 100 years ago?

Do people younger than us older folkies (40-70+ year-olds) make music on their own? What kind?

Are the people who get together to make music doing it for fun, or is it all done with an ear to becoming paid performers (Hey, let's put together a band - we can use my dad's garage!)

My feeling is that music is becoming more and more something that people look for from paid entertainers than something they can do themselves.

But why is this happening with folk music (if it is)? Here we sometimes hear that "the Washington DC audience" is unusual in that we sing along with the performers more (not that the performers always welcome that...) I remember going to Passim's in Boston while on a business trip 10 years ago to hear Bill Staines. Bill was singing a whole raft of his lovely songs with choruses, and I started singing along - until I noticed I was the only person in the place doing that, so I shut up. At work, folks look to me to start "Happy Birthday" in office parties because the know that - Gasp!- I SING in public! I hear the usual mumbling "Oh, I can't carry a tune" when I ask why they don't sing.

Why? Is it passivity from too much television? Maybe pop music - rock, rap, country, etc. has become too homogenized and technical, and how many garage bands can afford a full synth/sampling computerized rig? If that's the only kind of music you hear, it might be difficult to imagine yourself doing it without the gear. Or is it because "Music" class is one of the first things to be cut from a public school budget?

I remember having "Music" once or twice a week in grade school, where we would all sing songs from one of those collections put together for school kids. Many of those songs were traditional folksongs. The hired, part-time music teacher would bang out something on the piano and we'd all try to sing along - sometimes she'd even try teaching different parts. But I've also heard friends relate how that same part-time music teacher in their school (she really got around the country) told them they couldn't sing, and to just lip-synch the words, thus humiliating a kid and crushing whatever desire they had to have fun with music.

What do you think? Is home-made music just for fun a dying past-time? If so, why? If not, cite some examples. The floor is open!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Allan C.
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 04:14 PM

Why go to all the bother to sing or play music? THE BOX does it for me. It is a far better performer than I could ever be. The notes being sung are always totally on pitch. The instrumentation is almost beyond perfection. It is all in THE BOX. It is WONDERFUL! I could never be so wonderful. Besides, nobody I actually know makes music. So it must be very difficult to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Bert
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 04:32 PM

When we were kids it was our parents that sang. At a party everyone would be almost forced to participate with singing along or singing a solo party piece.

As young adults we didn't sing nearly as much, even throughout the 'psuedo-folk' sixties.

Now I'm up in the old fart bracket I sing as much as possible. Last Xmas I gave a neighbor's kid a guitar. I asked her recently how she was getting on with it, and she replied that her sisters keep stealing it.

I'm sure that my daughter will always sing. My son plays guitar (much better than I do) but he doesn't sing very often and he want's to be in a band.

I guess there's hope for the next generation.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Dale Rose
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 04:43 PM

My only question is WHY is there a BS prefix in the first place? Are we too stupid to figure that out for our selves ~~ what is and what is not? It's kind of insulting to the intelligence. I read the threads I want to read, and don't read the ones I don't want to read. Unfortunately, there are more that I DON'T read anymore ~~ but that is another problem altogether. Labeling a thread as BS automatically predjudices me against it in the first place. It all goes back to the incidents that caused people to start putting the label on in the first place. Why not just put up your thread and let the reader decide what category it falls into? (I am not talking about the functional prefixes, lyric add, etc.)

Besides, I don't consider this one BS at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 05:28 PM

Well, I kinda thought the "BS" designation was for those threads that irk the hell out of those of us who come here to talk about music. but I also almost hate to say anything, for fear of leading this worthy topic astray.

Let me get back on topic and repeat LaMarca's question:

Do people younger than us older folkies (40-70+ year-olds) make music on their own? What kind?
Are the people who get together to make music doing it for fun, or is it all done with an ear to becoming paid performers (Hey, let's put together a band - we can use my dad's garage!)

I have three children, ages 20, 23, and 26. Music has been a major part of their lives ever since they were born - but it's rarely been MY kind of music that interested them. My oldest son led the others in their musical tastes, and, to a great extent, he still does. I think the first music they really liked was the Sesame Street songs of Joe Raposo, but it wasn't long before they graduated to Pink Floyd and then on to Kiss and were doing "air guitar" concerts for us to songs by those groups. By the time my oldest one was midway through high school, they had settled on "alternative" music, and I started hearing stuff by the Cure and Morrissey and the Smiths seeping out from their bedrooms. They and their friends had some very rigid rules about what music:
   A. You can't sing it unless you wrote it.
   B. Sing it with a British accent (I don't know why).
My oldest son moved into punk, and has made a fair name for himself as a musician here in Sacramento. Can't say I like much of his music, but at times it shows signs of intelligence. He experiments constantly with all sorts of musical formats, and even recorded a record of instrumental surf music. The two younger ones do things that sound more like pseudo-folk singer-songwriter songs. Maybe like Ani Di Franco, but not quite so close to folk. Can't say I like much of their music, either. They've all performed for paying audiences - although they haven't actually made any money themselves. They're all interested in "making it" as musicians, but they aren't particularly interested in making money - although the change in welfare laws and the passage of time has altered their perspective somewhat.
Although they still seem to be directed toward the singer-songwriter ethic, I've noticed at times that my kids have developed a pretty good knowledge of all sorts of music, even folk. They'll even sing a folk or blues song now and then to keep their dad happy.
This is the musical story of my children, but I think they reflect the musical taste of a good number of young people in midtown Sacramento. They're making their own music. I don't necessarily like their music, but I'm pleased that they're doing it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: unclenort
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 05:31 PM

lamarca, yes young(er) people do still hangout and just jam for the love of a good tune. i'm 24 years old and i play in a 7 piece bluegrass/newgrass(whatever that means) band. we do gig as often as we can but money has never been our biggest motivating factor. the band was formed basicaly becouse we had the gear and we figured we might as well try to bring the music to an audiance. we met around a campfire and thats still my favorite place to play.

as for music being something to look for from paid entertainers.....how about a folk or bluegrass festival? at least 10/1 parking lot players to payed performers.

just my personal experiance.ol'unclenort:)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Bert
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 05:43 PM

Dale, I know what you mean, BS is an unfortunate label and it is misused at Mudcat. We use it to mean 'discussion that not related to any specific song'.

If you think of it in that light it doesn't jar quite as much.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: lamarca
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 06:02 PM

Oops, and here I thought "BS" sort of stood for those "bull" sessions we used to have in college into the wee hours about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything...exactly the sort of discussion I still like getting into about music!

Here in the DC area we seem to have many separate social groups that get together to make music in different ways; there's the floating Irish sessions, which seem to have to find a new bar every so often when the one they've been hanging out in closes or decides to install a jukebox for better-paying customers; the Old-Time crowd who jam at each-others' homes and occasionally spread the net wider at the Annual Northern Bobs party; the Dulcimer People, who have a newsletter and everything; the Sacred Harpies, who meet formally once a month, and casually in between; the FSGW Open Singers (many of whom are Mudcatters) who have a formal monthly song-swap; and the loose group I think of as The East-Coast Folk Mafia (of which I am a member) that includes people like Sandy and KathWestra and Charlie Baum, who wander up and down the East Coast looking for stray living rooms and junior high schools to sing in. But most of these people are in the aforementioned 40-70+ range.

I guess I'm most worried about social SINGING disappearing - instrumental music in many folk idioms is alive and kicking in the talented hands of the younger generation (We always have a full stage for "The Next Generation" workshop at the Washington Irish Festival. These kids LOVE the music, and are usually part of the late night jam sessions after the show's over, if their parents haven't dragged them off to bed...) But singing seems different somehow. First, many people hear the word "musician" and say "What instrument do you play?" Singing is perhaps more threatening because the instrument is YOU.

So, who gets together and SINGS in your part of the world? Is it just for fun, or performance-oriented? Are any of you not-so-old folkies? How did you get started? Does anyone else out there feel singing as a social activity is dying out (and the songs along with it, therefore?)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 06:59 PM

Lamarca, long time no read. You still with the National Festival?

Here's what I think.

FIRST

Approximately 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of all people believe that the SOLE purpose of music is to deliver entertainment FROM the music maker TO the music receiver. In a way its analagous to certain restricted views regarding sex (e.g. only for procreation, not for pleasure). As such there is no intrinsic value to singing unless it meets the standard of commercially available professional music delivered from the entertainment industry.

SECOND Even if they get past the first idea, people get tripped up by the idea that singing is an open expression of intimate emotions and feelings too personal and private for public viewing. It makes people (especially men) uncomfortable. There's a taboo that makes people equate singing with exposing oneself in public, and they just won't do it.

THIRD Singing in public with others requires people to agree to do the same thing together all at one time. We have become to individualistic to divert our attention away from our selves long enough to engage in synchronous behavior for the duration of even one song. Related to this is the fact that singing together requires either a confluence of taste, or compromise of taste, which is again something our culture does poorly, if at all (For those who don't think this applies to folkies, you haven't read many forum threads on RUS, What is Folk, et al).

Of course as Joe pointed out indirectly, there is also a greater fragmentation (artificially exacerbated by advertisers) between 'Youth Culture' and 'Adult Culture' as if they belong to different social groups, so that is in fact what they have become. Learning common songs is no longer part of entering the overall culture to which ones family belongs. To the contrary, one is expected to learn different songs so as to separate from that culture.

All this stuff contributes.

How my family avoided it is beyond me, allthough I suspect it stems from a tendency to spawn free thinkers that don't really care what others think.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 07:04 PM

I'm a little off the topic, LaMarca, but when Bill Staines performs here in the Sacramento area, he fills only about half of the 150-seat Palms Playhouse - but the audience sings along with every song. I'm surprised you haven't seen the same thing on your side of the continent. They also sing along with John McCutcheon, but not quite as well as they do with Staines. With other performers - not so much, unless they're asked to sing along.
I've sung with grade school kids at camp and similar settings since about 1966. I think the kids sing with me just as well as they ever did. However, I do sometimes have a problem with the parents. They tend to like to sit in the back row and talk. I have developed various, very effective methods of dealing with that. Those who attend my workshop at the Getaway may wish to be aware of that....
Another problem, though is that parents don't seem to think of singing as an essential part of their children's lives. When they organize programs for kids, they're more likely to include competitive things, and forget about music. It's too expensive to hire a musician, dontchaknow, and the parents don't really think about the idea of home-made music. Maybe it's our generation that has abandoned the idea of singing.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 07:21 PM

Sticking with the folk music (there are plenty of young bands round here but I suspect that they are more interested in the money side of things) the situation in my part of North West Wales is a lot better now than when I started getting involved as an 18 year old in 1978.

I have always enjoyed playing and singing but doing this on your own is not much fun and I think it is much nicer to be playing with others.

It wasn't until 1981 that a folk club really got established (or more accurately, re-established) in my immediate Llandudno area and at the time of the younger ones, there was me and Anwen who is about 4 years younger than myself who played round here for a couple of years before moving to Manchester.

At that time, nearly ever other "folkie" in the area was at least 40 and there was very little played except guitar and a few 5 string banjo tunes.

I was always interested in the dance music (there was a local Morris side that I belonged to but I wanted the livelier stuff) and even though I subsequently (about 6 years later) found out that there was a session aout 20 miles down the road, you were basicaly on your own if you wanted to do anything different and learning was difficult as the older ones were unhelpful. Anwen was luckier on this than me as she was a very actractive female, the older males would spend a lot of time with her but all I could get from the same people was a very rushed 2 seconds worth of "that's how its done" if I asked a question and as a result, just about everything I learned was self taught with the help of books and tapes.

The situation is certainly not brilliant around Llandudno now but the interest has increased and there are now people in the area who are willing to help and I went to a small session last week which included a 16 year old flute player and 2 fiddle players who I would guess are less than 10 years old (as well as people older than myself who are relatively new to the music) and we all sat down together and played for simple enjoyment.

Considering it is 1999, this is a very small step forward but round here, any progress has to be classed as a major achievement.

Jon

PS I recently had a conversation about starting up a group (not looking for "real" money but as another outlet for playing). If it does happen, the line up will be me (39, tenor banjo, mandolin, melodeon and guitar, and a bit of harmony vocals), Jay (26, fiddle), Ceri (16, flute) and we are hoping Anwen (35, anglo concertina, melodeon, guitar and excellent vocals) who has moved back to this area will make up the forth member.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 08:34 PM

I was wandering around late at night at Old Songs, trying to find the singing session other Mudcatters were supposed to be at. I went to where I thought it was, and found a bunch of teenagers who had started their own session. They invited me in, with the provision that I not have an "attitude," which I took to mean no bossing around. I believe they were refugees from another session that had been a bit on the bossy side. I might have gone in, but I was still looking for the other session - which was probably the bossy one. Never found it. Of course, these were folkie kids.

There is something that happens as a person gets older. For some reason, kids are encouraged to sing, but when they get to a certain age, people start making comments like "what did you do with the money." It's not socially acceptable for average people to sing for fun and entertainment outside the 'folk' community. If a kid's family doesn't sing and they don't have a participatory music program in their school, the average kid just stops or sings along with canned music. My hat's off to teachers who spread the word that music isn't just for listening to.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 08:52 PM

Jeri,

I wouldn't argue with your comment "It's not socially acceptable for average people to sing for fun and entertainment outside the 'folk' community." But why should this be? A lot of people are missing out on a lot of pleasure.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: CarlZen
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 09:15 PM

Allan - I cwertainly hope thast your tongue was planted firmly in cheek when you wrote that. One of the best things about this "folk music" stuff is the participatory aspect of it. One of the strongest aspects of it is its ability to counter the need for "someone else" to do it for us. There are a lot of socio-political ramifications here. What happens when the powers that be in control of "the box" decide that your favorite music is no longer marketable? As I write this I'm sure that you must have been humoring us all, "it must be very difficult to do." REALLY!!!!

I work in an elementary school and I have an opportunity to gauge reactions of kids to singing. They don't get enough of it in school. Most kids naturally like to sing, but there are a lot who won't for some reason. This number grows the older the kids get.

My biggest frustration is other teachers who don't sing with their children because they say, "they wouldn't want to hear my voice." WHAT CRAP!!! Educators owe children the opportunity to put songs into their voices. The kids don't care. I am not an artist, but I've learned enough to be able to present art lessons in a classroom. I am not a published writer, but I teach children to write. I am not an actor, but I provide children the opportunity to express themselves in dramatic forms.

All of this reminds me of something Peter Seeger wrote a few years back about a "tin ear club" which claimed to teach anyone how to carry a tune (not necessarily to sing like Pavaratti, but to be able to sing). Anyone know where to get information on that group (or the person who organized the group?)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 09:27 PM

Jon, it shouldn't be. People seem to look at singing as something that shouldn't be done by people with average voices. I sing because my family did, and because some people planted a few seeds during the folk revival, and I accidentally found an orchard.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: lamarca
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 09:42 PM

Carl, Your fellow teachers who say "They wouldn't want to hear my voice" sound like victims of the teachers I mentioned above, who told us when we were kids that we "couln't sing" because we didn't fit their idea of what singing should be. Perhaps these teachers still exist today - you sound like a wonderful opposite of that!

Jeri, Jon and others, could part of the problem with social singing be a misconception that singing MUST have an instrumental accompaniment? After all, all the songs we hear on the radio have guitars, drum machines, pianos or whatever accompanying them. As an unaccompanied singer who doesn't play any instrument, even I find it harder to open my mouth in a room of folkies where everyone else has a guitar. I usually get my talented husband to back me up on guitar in those situations.

The only kind of social singing that seems to be acceptable for most people is either singing hymns in church (and not all churches at that - my Catholic upbringing included no hymns except for the God-awful "folk-mass" creations of the 60's) or singing Christmas carols, the one remaining social choral folk tradition that seems to extend beyond the "folk" community.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 10:10 PM

lamarca, I can not see the misconception of needing instruments you mentioned as being the problem and I for one (even though I am far more into instrumental music - jigs, reels etc, than the volcal stuff) will happpily sit up just singing (and my voice is very rough) until daybreak.

I think that as Jeri (I think) suggested, it is more a matter of social acceptability but I can't understand why this should be the case. Could it be that too many people are "brainwashed" by TV and marketing to be able to be themselves any more?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: bbelle
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 10:39 PM

From as long as I can remember, I have been a singer and I love to sing all sorts of music ... and at one time contemplated being a Wagnerian soprano. During the 60's and 70's wherever I was I was asked to sing, but there was no audience participation. In my opinion, singing has been a vehicle for which to tease people ... young and old ... and keeps people from singing. I'm lucky that g-d has bestowed this wonderful gift on me and I give thanks everyday, but I've spent many, many years trying to convince people that they don't have to have a great talent to be able to sing, or a trained voice ... they just have to want to and then do it. Easier said than done. Not everyone I meet nowadays knows I'm a singer and when the subject of singing has arisen, they've even made disparaging remarks about what they suppose are my abilities. I never say a word, but I figure this is the same thing they do to those who are shy about singing, and it's sad.

My youngest sister and brother-in-law cannot carry a tune, but they have three children who are very talented. My 10 y/o niece is dyslexic but has the ability to hear a song once and be able to memorize the words and tune. She's very dramatic and quite phenomenol. My 12 y/o nephew likes everything from bluegrass to rap. It is a constant source of discontent in their house because Freddie likes to listen to rap. I keep telling them to leave him alone, he loves all kinds of music, and will gravitate to something better. Do they listen? No.

A story about my niece ... last year she auditioned for her school talent show and sang "Long Black Veil" unaccompanied. Now, my sister cannot carry a tune, but she knows what good and bad. She said Caitlin sang it right on key and it was beautiful. I've heard her sing it a few times (I taught it to her) and she really has a great, young, untrained voice. After the audition, the school principal called my sister into her office and said Caitlin was disqualified from the contest because the song material was not suitable for school. My niece was crushed.

Hope my meanderings make sense ... moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: sophocleese
Date: 14 Sep 99 - 10:48 PM

lamarca I've also had problems being an unaccompanied singer in a group of people who cannot keep their hands off their strings. I finally picked up a guitar in self defense, I play two chords start the song and continue without playing for the rest of the song. In a more organized song circle I don't need it but in a jam/free-for-all setting there is usually at least one or two people who feel that two seconds without someone else playing a chord is invitation for them to sing their fortieth song for the evening.

I grew up loving singing. I remember my parents singing hymns in harmony in the car on the way home from events etc. However as a teenager I was actively discouraged from singing by an older brother who said I sang out of tune and he didn't like it. The result was, despite lessons in singing, years of nervous frustration. We didn't go to a church where there was a choir. I heard from other kids that they had active singing programs in their schools but I didn't have them in mine. I'd probably have been told to shut up anyway. My younger brother is now trying to sing more. He suffered again from a lack of opportunity as a child and the few occasions that came up when he was a teenager he felt awkward because his voice had changed since those occasional singsongs in elementary school. Ultimately what it came down to for us as teenagers was that unless you were willing to stand up on stage and sing for an audience you had better shut up because your singing interfered with those who took music seriously.

The reduction of opportunities for people to simply sing together for pleasure does take its toll on a lot of people who are often left with the rather bland formulas of pop music to sing with. The idea that we need to remove music from the schools because we have to prepare children for life in the work force ignores the fact that a lot of people actually live by music. We end up with a population divided along the lines of professional and ignorant which does nobody any good.

So, although I was nervous before when the teacher asked if there was anything I could contribute to kindergarten class, this year I have said I can sing for them. They do get some musical education but I figure the more the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 12:08 AM

You know whats funny. I remember that as a kid that we used to sing a lot of the time by ourselves. On the bus going to field trips, at camp, walking home from school. Nobody taught us that I can remember, unless it was another kid who learned it from older siblings. Everything from 'Found a Peanut' to 'Flea', 99-bottles of beer on the wall, Dinah, and parodies of other songs with lyrics expressing our general resentment toward teachers and school (Hark the herald angels shout, 10 more days till we get out!...Hi-ho Hi-ho its off to school we go, we learn some junk and then we flunk ....). We'd sing our fool heads off, and sometimes got in trouble for it (Hail to the bus driver, bus driver, bus driver...). Do kids still do this somewhere?

Funny how it used to be the same way with baseball. We we played constantly all summer, at least when we weren't catching frogs and snakes. Not in leagues, but in pickup games. We made up a million rules to compensate for not having enough players or a real field (pitchers mound as good as first, a foul over the fence into the truck park lot is an automatic out, ghost runners, etc). We had games like 'running bases' and 'Pickle'. We knew how to fix a ball with electricians tape; How to throw a bat to pick sides. How to rub dirt on a bruise to make it feel better ( a variant of the time-honored shaman trick, distract the patient till the pain subsides). Grass got worn out on spots where pitchers and batters stood. We arbitered disputes the old fashioned way, Rock-Paper-Scissors, or maybe we wrestled for it if it was a real hot dispute. There was no structure to learning this stuff either. A little we learned from our dads, like the basics of throwing and catching, or how to oil a glove, or get down for a ground ball. But mostly it just got passed on to us from other kids or we figured it out ourselves. True 'folk process' in action.

Now the only kids who play are in organized ball, with schedules and practices and won loss records and strict rules and lots and lots of grown-ups, including umpires, coaches, and parents. And you know, even though they play that organized ball pretty well, you never see those kids out there later by themselves anymore, just playing baseball together on their own. A lot of effort and coaching goes into teaching them to play, but then, left to themselves, they don't. Why?

I think part of the problem is this, too much of what we give our children is too packaged and shiny and complete. The tire swing has been replaced by Arthurian castles of treated lumber, with rainbow canopies and coil slides. Stuffed animals not for loving but for collecting (mostly by adults-go figure). But what happens? The kids play along, with all the appropriate avarice for new playthings that kids have had for generations, but they're bored. Bored, because its not their natural childood greed they want satisfied. What they really want is a chance to be left alone with their friends to play--as kids! And what we forget is that once they have that, then the simplest thing becomes the most wonderful and diverting toy. A shovel to dig a hole in the backyard, a ball to bounce, a blanket to build a tent with, or maybe, if they are really lucky, that wonder-of-wonders, joy-of-joys, an empty cardboard refrigerator box.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 12:32 AM

Ha! Jack, when I was a real little kid, my parents got me a bunch of cardboard boxes (including a refrigerator box) for Christmas because they didn't have much money. My Mom told me I had more fun hiding in the boxes than I had with any toys I got in later years.

The greatest toy is a good imagination. Maybe the singing stops because that imagination is considered a thing of childhood and shed like other childhood things.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Escamillo
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 12:55 AM

Thanks for allowing us to learn many things from this thread. I have 3 sons (25,23 and 17) which are "Johnnies who can't sing". I remember myself being a folk singer at 14 to 24 years old, then shut my mouth for 20 years or so, but this was a very special reason: I had discovered opera and listened to great singers, felt in love with that music, and then muted. At age 44 was encouraged by friends of a small chorus, then studied seriously, and now I'm not an opera singer, but a good tenor at main choral groups. But my sons don't want to open their mouths. At least in this side of the world (Argentina), popular music has been degraded to such an extreme, that almost everything you can hear at TV and radio is hilarious by definition, in other words, people doing this music KNOW that they make a parody of music, and that's fun, and that's what should be heared by young people. My sons associate the idea of singing with the idea of making people laugh. This is 50%. Now, 45% is music they respect and admire, within its popular nature. Unfortunately singers are NOT educated at all, even having good voices (say Shakira or Ricky Martin for example) and don't teach them anything. The other 5% is music they respect too much (Pavarotti, Bocelli, Kiri Te Kanawa), they respect it SO much that they listen to them very few times, (or they do just to make the old man happy ?).

My house is full of classical music, they sometimes come to concerts I participate, but they don't get involved. It seems to me that neighbours, school mates and TV have a stronger influence. They are good and educated boys, and this should be enough for me, but (sigh) I would like so much that they catch more interest in music and singing.. what is the formula ?

Andrés Magré - [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 01:57 AM

Hey, Andres--welcome! We haven't heard a voice from South America in a long time--and the last one was British: AlistairUK in Brazil (and what's happened to him?).

An interesting thread. I want to think about this one for a while before I contribute: my son is an avid consumer of music but not a producer. I haven't heard him sing since he was eight years old or so, and he seems to consider my singing and playing just another of the things I do that embarrass him. He did seem interested in learning to play blues harmonica for a while, so I gave him a Big River in C and lessons on both audio and video tape, but he never did anything with them. He gave me back the video (David Harp's "Three Minutes to Blues Harmonica," hardly an intimidating way to learn, but I doubt if he ever put it in his video player.

I'll get back to this later. --seed

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Sep 99 - 11:37 PM

I have just read throgh this tread again and noticed a lot of comments about just singing. There are times that I enjoy doing this eg, I've not got an instrument with me, maybe feeling a little bit tired/ played for a few hours already, too drunk to get the brain and fingers to want to work together etc, but why should somebody who loves music just want to sing when we can play instruments as well?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Tom B.
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 02:09 AM

This thread has lots of potential, as well as lots of good comments already made.

Is making music in your living room with your friends, and singing for fun, a dying art? I don't think so. Aren't there more acoustic guitars and all the other instruments, not to mention people who play them, out there, per capita, more than there ever have been in modern history? Yes. Obviously, there's lots of music being made (I can't attest to the quality). Yet it's true that few actually sing. I love to sing, and I play, too, but I love singing more than anything. In most groups I get into, there seems to be a happy surprise that someone wants to sing, in key, and with a pleasant voice to all.

1amarca, I think the way you posed this question is right on target regarding the cutting of music (and art in general) in the public schools. I remember the same once- a- week traveling music teacher with the California State music texts that had Poor Wayfarin' Stranger (which I eventually recorded on both my English and Spanish CDs--see http://www.musicapaedia.com for the Spanish version mp3 as I shamelessly promote my website (the listen is free)), Waltzing Matilda, 4 and 20 Sailors, etc. I think the de-emphasizing of the arts and the pushing of the "technical skills for jobs" in education is precisely what brought us the current ubiquity/omnipresence of non-melodic or even merely banal music (in confluence with the affordability of multi-track, sampling, etc.); kids weren't taught to sing--how can we expect beautiful music from that crop? And now everyone's a musician, they all put out their product, and I would assert that the reason it's so popular is only because of peer pressure and wanting to appear cool; it's all a house of cards. Can a human being honestly find that music uplifting? Someone needs to do a study, or just a good essay, to blow that house of cards down. I teach in the public schools and use my own music and other melodic music to teach Spanish, and the kids who generally listen to (do I call it "rap" or "hip hop"? not to mention the various "alternatives") ___ actually respond really well to what I present, and I believe it's because deep down they are starving for it...

Jack, I love your turn of phrase "synchronous behavior"; not only does current culture discourage it generally so that it trains us to spend less time singing or playing a song together, but of course it applies to family meals, and whatever else anyone out there can think to add...

I think in Brazil they are not afraid to sing out...still...

Finally I just wanted to say that I am fortunate to have a group of friends many who are songwriters and musicians and over the last 15 years we have had stay overs of 15 people partying and playing music, generally after dinner from about 10pm til 3 or 4 or 5 am, without knowing what time it is and everybody contributes. That is when I like doing music only; I played out for years, and found the whole band/make it effort wasn't really fun; now I am happily resigned to playing and singing at our gatherings.

OK, long enough. I have an essay germinating on ugly and mediocre music, and the celebration thereof, of our debased popular culture, but I'll leave it for a later moment.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 03:49 AM

Jon, I don't attempt to speak for the rest, but in my case I sometimes like to sing without instruments just because it allows me to really concentrate on the song & to improvise a bit with the tune & the timing if I want without worrying about messing anyone else around. Sometimes its just nice for a change too. But I wouldn't want to do it all the time, it would drive me (non_instru)mental. (arghh :) ).

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 08:13 AM

Jon, I play fiddle, and haven't figured out how to play and sing at the same time. Sometimes I alternate in a song, playing along quietly with the verses, hitting the instrumental breaks, then just singing on the choruses. I don't know why I enjoy singing more than playing - maybe it's just the feel of the notes vibrating in my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: MMario
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 08:23 AM

Jon - Why would anyone want to sing without intrumentation? Because there is no one around who can play an instrument strikes me as a good reason....

I have found that I have a difficult time even clapping to a beat while I am singing -- and if I have a choice between singing and not...I will SING. Not that I would mind having accompianment, but....

I know a woman who is painful to listen to when she sings, but in some ways it is also a joyful sound, because even though her hitting anywhere near the correct note is a rare and wondrous thing, her joy in singing shows through...would I ever ask her to not sing? NO WAY!

My nephew - who can do incredible things with his speaking voice, couldn't carry a tune to save his life for years...with one exception...he could sing all the jingles from TV ads. But nothing else, until very recently.

Then there is my neice, who can LOOK at sheet music and "hear" the tune, and then sing it. I could hate her.....

MMario

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 08:53 AM

I used to figure that I sang without accompianment because I'd drive anyone playing along with me nuts! I am 'free' with rhythm. However I am now learning bodhran (go for the weakness) and that is improving, but sometimes strict rhythm isn't necessary. Singing of course is easy to practice while working; ever tried washing dishes and playing guitar at the same time? How many arms have you got? If I had learnt some kind of accompanying instrument earlier I would be more comfortable with it but, instead, my voice is my first instrument so when I'm tense or nervous I let go of everything else and just concentrate on that. I am learning guitar now so I can accompany myself but I'm a beginner and goof up more often than not. Practice, Practice, Practice..

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 09:17 AM

Thanks moonchild, last I know who killed the person under the town hall light, it was a F****** school principal. And a singer died for it!

I think the remarks about singing perceived as a form of personal expression are right: it is part of this complicated strategy to redefine most things that used to be social (but which had individual, as well as collective, threads) as primarily self-oriented, so that they can then be turned into a highly wrought product, and sold to individuals. This undercuts community, and reinforces the models of self-interested consumerism that saturate our world.
(end of rant).
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 09:54 AM

OK, I can see the arguements for singing without playing but I think that I phrased my last post badly. The way I see it is that if you can hear a tune, you can play a musical instrument but it seems to me that so many people are defeated on this before they start. It might take a lot of time and I am ont suggesting that everybody is going to become brilliant players (I am certainly not) but most of us are capable of playing reasonably well and even if singing is your first love, playing an instrument does give an addtional musical pleasure (even if both are not done at the same time).

Coming back to the social aspects, round here the only time you hear singing by the general public is when eople have got very drunk or when there is that Kariokee thing going - Why?

Also, why do people spend a lot of money "feeding" juke boxes when they would probably have a better time singing amonsgst themelves?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: MMario
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 10:34 AM

Jon - if I hear a tune, I can usually SING an approximation of it. I am so far unable to produce ANYTHING remotely resembling music from any instrument I have ever tried...(and I HAVE tried...)--- percussion, wind, string, keyboard.....okay, keyboard I can pick out a tune with a great deal of difficulty - and can usually get it up to a decent pace in only a few weeks of torture.

I agree that there is very little social singing seen anymore. Song circles don't count. (Sorry) -- I'm talking the evening concerts in the park I grew up on, and people who would gather on the porch and sing the evening away. You just don't see it anymore.

MMario

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 11:23 AM

MMario, I guess that I might of come over a bit strongly when I suggested that just about anybody can play. I was one of the lucky ones and even though I am not a brilliant player, I feel strongly that God gifted me with a lot of natural ability in terms of feeling music and I sometimes find it hard to understand why others perhaps find learning to play a lot harder than I did.

On the things that used to happpen, when I was a child, football (or soccer) was one of the main things and we used to make our own entertainment in the small village that I lived in. We used to have a game nearly every night, go cycling, make dens, etc. but these days this all seems to be gone as well, the kids seem to be more into computer games and tv now.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: MMario
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 11:57 AM

JOn -don't get me wrong, I think it is marvelous that there are people who can pick up an instrument and make music. I wish I was one of them. It is one of those things in life that makes me turn green all over...I have even MORE respect for those who have to work at it then I do those who can pick up the bl**dy things and get them to work "right" in a couple minutes.....

But there are those of us who don't seem capable of it...my music teacher back in the 60's was SOOOOOO happy when I gave up the saxaphone after three years...of course he was also struggling to teach me to read music and had been for 6 years at that time. I just can't seem to get it...

but I will sing (almost) anywhere at the drop of a hat, or the mention of a drop of a hat, or the suggestion of a drop of the hat.....*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 01:12 PM

To me, the thing were discussing doesn't have anything to do with 'instrumental' or 'non-instrumental' singing.

My perception is that there was a time when singing was a natural public social behavior, and learning to sing those songs was part of integrating into ones society. People would sing at work, at play, at home, in church. They'd sing to entertain each other. They'd sing to make work go faster. They'd sing because singing was fun, it made them feel better, it lifted their mood. Singing was no different than telling a joke, or passing around a photograph of ones family, or telling a story. It was just something one did.

Decades ago Pink Floyd ended one of their albums with a field recording of a packed stadium of english soccer fans all singing their team song at a match (I think the song was 'You'll never walk along'). The gusto and passion of all those voices rising and falling together still gives me chills. It stirs a longing to be there with them adding my voice to the thunder. I think this feeling is unrealted to a love of music or desire to perform or be entertained. It was the need to make that joyful noise, to sound my Barbaric Yawp, to howl at the moon and laugh in creation's face.

So when I contemplate the fact that people aren't singing in public for its own sake anymore, I don't ask myself "Are we not musicians?', I ask myself 'Are we not human?'

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Tom B.
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 02:51 PM

Jack (whose parents named him Jack, not just a nickname I take it), you are so right on about the social value of singing in public, I have nothing to add to it, and

Peter T.: about the commodification of culture... Isn't that what prevents more people from singing, as someone said earlier--that because it is now perceived as something "professionals" do? and because of modern recording/production opportunities the resulting recording is in perfect pitch (re-takes and overdubs), at full breath (ditto), oftentimes at superhuman levels of intensity (ditto), so that the mere human listener feels they can't compare and therefore are shut down, intimidated, and afraid to let out a peep in public (what one does in the shower is another thing)?

With the electronification of everything, human, fleshy, social interaction in general has waned: people used to sit on the porch and converse and watch the world go by in summer, but with airconditioning everyone is inside; with microwaves, fastfood, and everyone with different work, play, and school schedules, we have lost the social habit of eating together and what in latin countries is called the sobremesa--after dinner conversation that may last an hour or two; and as someone said earlier, the mere existence of television and video games presents a tempting and successful default or distraction to what was once what we called human interaction for millenia...

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 03:51 PM

Tom B, while I agree that the hi-tech age has taken away some simple pleasures, it is not all bad. Take Mudcat for example, being able to share views with friendly people with similar interests living in different parts of the world has to a big plus.

I have got a session to go to tonight so for the next few hours I will be playing (and possibly singing) with friends for no better reason than for the fun of it!

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon W.
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 04:36 PM

Besides all the other reasons given, what about this: the songs kids grew up listening to on "the box" all sound bad when sung without the appropriate background accompaniment. I'm talking about everything since the 1950's do-whop era. Think about it. Rock 'n' roll music, being based on blues, had melodies that required pauses with instrumental fills between each line - or had some little instrumental fill that was essential to the melody but sounded kind of dumb when sung, not played. Then as rock got more sophisticated the vocal melodies became less singable not to mention the fact that most rock male vocalists were singing as high as sopranos which put it out of the reach of ordinary men's voices. Plus the wild emotions - who can really work up to that without getting embarassed? Then came the high-production pop music - likewise it sounds lousy without all the "gear". Finally, Rap - which shows the best promise of something ordinary folks could do without much equipment but still would take the same amount of coordination with others, at least, as the old do-whop songs did (somebody has to make all those sound effects, right?).

So what I'm saying is that for the last couple of generations, singable songs have been driven off center stage in the theater of popular music, and that's one big reason why Johnny doesn't (not can't) sing.

Jon W.

So what

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 06:10 PM

I agree with the last post to some degree about the lack of singable songs but in my experience with kids, singing is not encouraged unless they show an aptitude for it in music classes in school. Then, the emphasis is on reading music for choral groups or singing solos for talent shows. Singing in the U.S. today for the most part is about becoming professional or forget it. Kids are made to feel embarrassed by it publicly but in small enclaves, I know it takes place when they sing along with the radio. Musical education for the general public has been on the decline in my opinion for the last decade. It has been deemed by many schools as a frivolous or unessential activity. You can tell this by just listening to AM radio. The musicianship is sometimes good by professionals and the production values of the music are technically superb and the music itself, particularly the songs are of a very poor quality. The harmonies are often banal, simplistic, and the melodies confined two less than an octave and not used particularly with originality but echo the last "hit". The words are constructed in many songs to be so simplistic as to be able to read anything into them that anyone wants to. The lyrics are generally constructed poorly with faulty rhyme schemes, crude metaphors (if any are offered) and little content outside of self-pity. There are notable exceptions, however by writers who really know their craft and occasionally break through the muddy slop.

Bottom line, Johnnie is not getting a good musical education. AM radio proves it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 06:59 PM

Education probably has a lot to do with it, but I think one of the biggest contributions is one that's already been mentioned several times. I'd offer my own take on it, though. What with TV, radio, recordings and the like, people have grown up expecting to be entertained, and don't have much idea how to entertain themselves or even understand the concept. And it does seem a very recent development. I went on a bus tour of Europe in '79 with a bunch of mostly older folks from quite a few different countries. Near the end of the tour when people had sort of gotten to know one another, we sang. Folks from New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Italy, and the US sang popular songs from about 1930 to about 1950. We all knew a lot of WWII era songs.

I just came from an appointment at a Veteran's Administration hospital. I was going up the steps to the entrance when an elderly gentleman in a wheel chair said something about an interesting license plate he'd just seen. I stopped to talk, and pretty soon we were joined by another man attached to an IV. The seated man talked about his efforts in trying to get musicians in the nursing home part of the hospital together to play - he plays jazz piano. The other man said he used to play banjo in a Boston area band. He said musicians regularly came to the nursing home and entertained the patients. I asked if people sang along, and he said OH, Yeahhh - except for the fact they didn't know the newer songs by recent artists like Harry Belafonte, you couldn't keep 'em quite. (This tale isn't entirely on-topic, but it was such a wonderful experience, I had to find some way to work it in.)

The decline of singing-for-fun seems to have started with the generation that grew up with TV and portable radios. Perhaps the failing in musical education is another symptom instead of the main cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: kendall morse (don't use)
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 09:41 PM

I was discussing with a friend the trends in todays "music" and he said "What the hell are the kids today going to use for nostalgia? Cant you see them, 30 years f rom now leaning on the old upright synthesizer, trying to remember two words from Twisted Sister?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 10:24 PM

I don't think that the instruments used are anything to do with it - it may be a controversial point but I believe that if the modern keyboards had existed and been readily available, let's say in Ireland, 200 years ago, I am quite convinced that they would have been a part of the traditional music then.

I think that Jeri has got the closest to what I feel when she commented on people not seeming to know how to entertain themselves anymore.

I don't believe that this buisiness is as simple as school education and think that it is more a reflection on the way life is now. The question is what can we do (assuming that we should) do about it.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Escamillo
Date: 16 Sep 99 - 11:26 PM

Small contribution: I agree with Jon W. about quality or value of the popular music "as seen on TV". I can see that most of that music IS practically accompaniment and background, while melody is not existent, and harmony is extremely poor. When you try to sing it, it is awful and disappointing. But IF this music(?) is business, and is cheap to produce, nobody will care about quality. Then that will be the new definition of music: an extremely strong vibration of air that makes money.

The concept has reached the cyberspace too: try to make a search on serious music (academic or popular/folk) in any of the main search engines (Yahoo for example), and you will not find anything under the title ARTS. You will find music under ENTERTAINMENT.

Andrés Magré - [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 02:05 PM

My Johnnie can sing. In fact, he's majoring in music in college right now. That may have to do with being brought up in a household immersed in music, along with his own innate passion for music, a combination of exposure and interest.

I sang to him every night when he was an infant, and we sang together every day in the car on the way to day care. The radio was often going in some room of the house, and he sang along to his while we sang along to ours. He went to his first music festival (bluegrass) as a baby, and every summer played on a blanket on the New Haven green while the symphony serenaded us under the stars. We had many a song circle at our house with him lying on his back in the middle of the circle "absorbing" the songs that went around the room.

His friends got together once or twice a week to make music, sometimes here sometimes elsewhere. They sang along with the drums, congas and electric guitars, sometimes things they wrote themselves, sometimes covering groups they liked. Sometimes it was even music from our old record collection, like Buffalo Springfield or Traffic. Sometimes he even played bluegrass bass with Mom and Dad.

I think some people just aren't interested in the arts. Our constantly evolving society values and supports different activities with each generation, but there will always be those few poets, musicians, dancers, creative ones who need and cherish the arts. Is the culture the result or cause of the society's values? When options for entertainment were limited, people tended to get together and sing or dance or play music. Or play cards. Or throw balls. Or watch people throwing balls. Me, I make time for music.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon W.
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 03:49 PM

Ah, Barbara, there you go. Sing to your babies every night and they will sing when they grow up. How can we get moms and dads to do that? I hardly do it myself and I have deep feelings about music. Well, I'm going to make more of an effort to do it. And I'll encourage my wife who has a beautiful voice and a Batchelor of Music degree to prove it to do the same.

I still remember hearing as a toddler my mother sing as she did the dinner dishes - Greensleeves, You are My Sunshine, Mairzy Doats, Black is the Color of My True Love's Hair. I don't think she felt like she had a great voice but it sounded okay to me.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Tom B.
Date: 17 Sep 99 - 06:28 PM

Love this thread, very thoughtful and true observations.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 03:22 AM

Many of us have grown up as members of the first "television generation", but we still retain elements of the culture that existed pre-television: many of us are avid readers, many of us learned to sing the traditional songs of our culture in school, on bus trips, at camping outings. I agree with Jack and Peter regarding the theory that we are reaching a stage when expressions of creativity (music, art, acting, storytelling, etc) have meaning only as commodities in our society. The dominance of mass media in our lives has drawn the line ever more clearly between performer and audience, and in the process we are robbing ourselves of one of the greatest traditions that have held our culture together: shared communication and understanding on a personal level through music.

In many ways, we have allowed the computer and the internet to become tools of this isolation of individuals within our society. But whoever said that Mudcat was a shining example of how technology CAN be used to enhance communication and sharing was absolutely right!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: wildlone
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 04:11 AM

we somtimes get younsters singing or playing at the monthly folk club, to give it its proper title the west end hall music night, some as young as nine. its nice to see years later these persons names advertising concerts and making some money or getting bookings to appear at festivals. you have to start somwhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 07:44 AM

People are not encouraged to participate in singing. It's reserved for the "stars". In conventional music schools, you are either Bach or Mozart or foget it. Music, like so many other businesses is measured by how much money is made by it. Johnnie has been beaten down by the educational system that spends more on football than music skills. Solution: rebel. Organize singing groups for fun. Put on house concerts. Orgnnize folk music organizations. Get together with friends. Conduct workshops on music informally with those who have skills. These are being done already and offer a great solution.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Why Johnnie Can't Sing
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 08:33 AM

I don't know what the music education is like in schools in the UK now but although we did have an excellent schools radio programme (Singing together) in the '60s when I as in primary school, there was little else but although enducation might contribute, I do not think that this is the reason for so little singing in public.

Having read this thread again, it seems to me that the main reasons for the decline are:

Laziness - ie. It is too easy to be entertained rather than make some effort to do this for ones self.

People are used to listening to music with heavy backing, amplifiers that make people sound better than they really are... And worry about singing on their own as they don't come up to that standard

People are afraid of being a little bit different and seem to follow what the powers of the media suggest that they should do and unfortunately, where as buying the latest chart music is acceptable, social singing seems to be something that is only suppposed to be done by very eccentric people - you could loose your credibility if you dared to join in with it.

Peer pressure seems to be a particulary big factor when it comes to the younger ones. Ceri, our 16 year old flute layer has told me that she has been made fun of in school both for playing folk music and for playing music with people like myself who are a lot older than her.

I do agree with Frank Hamilton when he said rebel. I have been doing this locally for about 20 years now and although I have not achived a lot, I founded one (thriving) folk club and was the founder member of 2 local sessions and we do get the occasional youngster. I was actualy one of 2 of the first people living within 10 miles of Llanduno to start playing the Celtic dance music in local folk events and now we have 2 (admittedly not brillaint) sessions in that area a week so it does work - it is just an incredibly slow process.

Jon