Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:29 PM

I do not know about years, but Reg certainly cut his teeth playing with the likes of Long John Baldry, etc.
Speaking as an ex-pat Brit living in Canada;
I personally do not get the Unthanks, I heard them Live as RU and winterset at Bromyard and really wondered why these girls who could mostly not sing in tune, with difficult to understand diction were there at all. I listened to them via You tube on the Bellowhead(GREAT group) Christmas Thingy and was grateful for the fast forward.
Having listened to the first link I do not think that they have improved much, though their pitching is a little better. Living in another Country, I certainly do not understand all the hype and nominations for different awards they recieve. To me at the expense of far better performers who have been mentioned above, who I would really like to hear more of.
My 2$ that's inflation for you, JohnB.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 01:16 PM

I pretty much agree with glueman. I'm not a great fan of the breathy little girl singing style, but lots of people are.

Johnny J - I think Carolyn Robson is a wonderful singer too, with impeccable folk credentials for singing Northumbrian songs (IIRC she grew up in Hexham). She also formerly worked for EFDSS...and of course she's one third of Craig, Morgan, Robson, as well as the mother of the Tabbush sisters!   

Kitty

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 12:07 PM

>>Oh spare us. That is COMPLETE bollocks. The guy got himself into the limelight straight after leaving college - I couldn't miss it even though I was in New Zealand at the time and detested the pop industry as much then as I do now. And his PR machine has made sure he's never been out of the public eye since. He's the archetypal pop product.

Interesting. I first heard of Elton John in Kildonan, Arran in an old boat shed where the son of the hotelier had a little recording studio thing. It would be summer 1970 just after release of second album. Never heard of him before so he PR machine must have been slow for me (at 16 presumablly I was part of the target audience).

By then, I was quite into acoustic and electric blues, folk music, west coast music, rock, classics, had been through the Beatles, done the Stones in the Park, seen Pink Floyd, been to see Judy Collins and all sorts of stuff - ie quite eclectic - but bizarrely the Elton John PR machine had missed me while the Velvet Underground and Roy Harper had managed to find me.

Jack - you may be talking bollocks from the wrong year unless New Zealand was that far ahead - I know it's alays the first at New Year.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Abdul out of the UK
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM

There is a British thing though about resenting success. Not just in the folky world o course but most things. They don't have that culture anywhere else that I'm aware of. The papers thrive on it.
Al

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM

I have seen my heros on bad days and seen acts for the first time I thought bad then heard something I liked on the radio and yep, it was them.

Taste is a fickle concept, abstract to say the least.

I recall a thread when I first found Mudcat a few years ago where somebody was lamenting that folk in The UK will die out with the baby boomers. Nonsense, I said. What about Eliza Carthy, Seth Lakeman, Kate Rusby, Spiers & Boden etc etc etc. "Ah, the young Turks. Not too sure they made a difference." Came the sad answer from a rather sad person.

It seems that success in any arts venture here in The UK is based on the media building you up in the way they wish in order to knock you down again, as they wish. Funny that artistic success is there to sell newspapers and nothing else, strange world.

What I find appalling is people perpetuating this hate of anybody who is doing alright, despite them not being editors, TV producers or newspaper barons. Why? A bit like the prat who told me I shouldn't sing in folk clubs because my car looks too posh. Folk clubs are there to whinge about being poor or some other such rubbish.

The only good bit is, there is no such thing as bad publicity. And when you need money from performing to pay the bills, any exposure can turn into ticket or album sales. Ask the late Michael Jackson for details.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM

No argument with that from me, Pulseroom.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Pulseroom
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 11:01 AM

Maybe, if you have only heard someone the one time your views are from that performance only, and maybe that particular performance was under par?

I have only ever seen Martin Carthy once at Gainsborough Festival "Trinity Arts Centre". All he seemed to do is tune his guitar, once tuned he played and sang as if to be unhappy "with the guitar and performance".

In the foyer after the performance I did hear people say it was rubbish. I did hear that afterwards Martin did in fact realise this himself and offered to do the performance free of charge, he told the organisers that the guitar was brand new and would not stay in tune even for one song. I bet Martin can remember that day.

So personally I came away disappointed because I had heard how fantastic he was and I was expecting something exceptional. I could actually say that Martin Carthy is rubbish in my opinion from his performance on that day. However, knowing the consequences I suppose I should make the effort to see him again.

I'm sure professional musicians can rise above such comments, people should also be allowed to view their opinions if they have paid good money to see them but weren't happy with their performance. It is their view that differs to yours. So be it!

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:49 AM

I'm with Will here....it's one thing to "not like" an artiste or band... that is purely personal taste.

But if a band or artise who you like (or even one that you don't like!) turns in what you consider to be a below-par performance in an environment where they have relatively large "exposure" then you should be prepared to put up a reasoned critique highlighting what you consider to have been "wrong" with the performance, rather than just slagging it off with a single word.

For example, the first time I heard "Fleet Foxes" (who've recently been "discovered" by Mudcat!) was about 2 1/2 years ago on Jools Holland and their performance was dire. The reason it was dire was that they were singing in a *completely different key* to the one they were playing their instruments in. It sounded horrible, and they didn't pick it up until halfway through the song, when their voices all shifted into the right key for the instruments over the course of 1 1/2 bars!

There was a YouTube clip of it for a while, but it seems to have disappeared now.

THAT was an OBJECTIVELY dire performance, whether you like "Fleet Foxes" or not. Anyone coming across them for the first time wouldn't have had a good impression at all.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:41 AM

"if you're going to be critical of a performance - in the right place and at the right time - then give a reasoned and balanced critique "

Point taken.
However, I shall re-iterate that this one word was used in relation to the *performance only* and not intended to be a personal attack on the girls themselves. Certainly, I wouldn't dream of using any of the other descriptions suggested by the OP which would be totally unacceptable under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:38 AM

If you dont like someone , you dont HAVE to go to their gigs or buy their product ! Equally , you should NOT Slag someone off without REALLY good cause !

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 09:30 AM

I do wish people could understand that, it in the end, it all boils down to personal taste - one man's meat being another man's poison, etc.

If you state that you don't like Richard Thompson (say) - all that says is that you don't happen to like Richard Thompson. As it happens, I admire RT greatly - but that merely tells you my taste. In between the two extremes lie a whole spectrum of opinions.

This doesn't mean that we have to suspend our critical faculty but, if you're going to be critical of a performance - in the right place and at the right time - then give a reasoned and balanced critique which - by the way - "grim" is not.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM

I thought the same thing Nick.
As members of the Folk World we should applaud any member being on radio, or TV and support them.
I have not seen the programme, but I intend to, The two sisters come over as lovely friendly girls and talented.
Good luck to all they achieve and the same goes for all of you.
Al

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM

Seth Lakeman?

I prefer his brothers though. They're not as famous.
:-)

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Unthanks: Lovely girls, as Father Ted once said (or was it Jack?) Liked them better as RU and the Winterset but perfectly bonny lasses singing songs old and new.

Kate Rusby: One doesn't hear Barnsley sung often enough to complain about it. Eats her crusts too. What's not to like?

Bellowhead: Anyone who puts a big band on the road in these straightened times is to be congratulated. Excellent musicians and a very good fun evening.

Show of Hands: Feels like a lecture. If I wanted a lecture I'd go to a university.

Jackie Oates: Lovely voice.

Eliza Carthy: Top bird, great voice, fine player, impeccable provenance.

Boden and Spiers: Marvellous. Done more for the tradition than most under 70s.

Did I miss anyone with a modicum of success?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:03 AM

There was a programme about Elton John and Bernie Taupin's early days on BBC4 the other day. Early promise and talent; music college and practice; dedication and singleminded pursuit of a goal in the face of adversity from school and parets etc; obscurity; playing in bands and 'paying dues'; selling out and playing the 'wrong music'; taking chances; working in Denmark St and trying to churn out 'hits'; travelling endlessly; ignored first album; nearly canned until going to the US etc etc.

Oh spare us. That is COMPLETE bollocks. The guy got himself into the limelight straight after leaving college - I couldn't miss it even though I was in New Zealand at the time and detested the pop industry as much then as I do now. And his PR machine has made sure he's never been out of the public eye since. He's the archetypal pop product.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM

Among the younger performers, I really like this lass

http://www.bellahardy.com/

and also

http://www.myspace.com/ruthnotman1

and

http://www.kerrfagan.com/

to name but a few.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM

Could be jealousy. I think it's something more than though and something I see in many walks of life more and more. Perhaps it's the Warhol thing of everyone and their 15 minutes of fame - perhaps famous people are getting in the way?

Johnny - she's a very fine singer last heard her in Whitby. Saw her with the Tabbush sisters some years ago and they are mighty fine too.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Zen
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

Yes Johnny J... I have heard her before and, yes, she is a fine singer.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM

JEALOUSY ?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:26 AM

Zen says

"Personally, I'd rather offer praise for those people who do move me in some way."

OK, then. You should all check out this woman if you haven't heard her already. I really enjoy her interpretations of Northumbrian songs.

http://www.focsle.org.uk/SCoFF/carolyn/

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:21 AM

I think they feel it's a betrayal of Sacred Folk Purity to be in any way favoured by the mainstream, especially as what The Unthanks do isn't exactly mainstream anyway, and yet has a wide appeal. Maybe that's another reason - I applaud anyone who might cover King Crimson and Robert Wyatt with the same exquisite attention to musical detail as Kipling / Bellamy (their cover of A Tree Song on Oak, Ash, Thorn is a definitive masterpiece) or traditional Northumbrian songs or whatever else they do. As I said on the other thread, they are an autonomous musical unit and can do as they please, which they do quite fearlessly.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:20 AM

So the aim of an artist is to be as unpopular as possible?

Should I only be listening to people that noone else likes?

Does that mean I'm doing tremendously well because so few people appreciate my stupendous talent and I'd only spoil it if more people liked what I did?

Sorry I have removed my tongue from my cheek now.

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:14 AM

If a musician gets popular then we don't get to feel special and unique anymore. In other words - how good could they be if "those" people like them too?

Subject: RE: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Zen
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM

Agreed. It seems many here would rather slate or begrudge people rather than staying silent if they don't care for them.

Personally, I'd rather offer praise for those people who do move me in some way.

Subject: Unthanks et al. Why begrudge success?
From: Nick
Date: 27 Apr 11 - 07:03 AM

A current thread made me wonder why it is that people find it much easier to champion and speak well of people when they are relatively unknown. Once they take the terrible step into being more widely liked they are suddenly 'grim' or 'rubbish' or 'money grabbing' or 'untrue to their roots' or 'fat' or sexually abnormal or whatever.

The current butt of this seems to be the Unthanks. A while ago the popular one to knock was Kate Rusby and how all her songs sound the same or some other gripe; or Show of Hands not being any good; or Bellowhead doing something wrong.

I listened to the song on the BBC mentioned on the latest thread and personally can't see why it raises so many hackles. My wife came in while I was listening to it and enjoyed it. It's decently sung, I like string quartet backing and the guitarist and keyboards were tasteful. I don't own any Unthanks music and have only really listened to a few things on YouTube etc when people have taken a pop at them here in the past (I liked Sexy Sadie by the way, I thought it was fun)

Is it because they are on the TV and somehow that makes you an instant target? Is the other side of the 'fame' culture that we live in a constant need to pillory and replace decent performers with whatever the next new thing is - until their time comes to be flushed down the same tube. Jedward I'm sure are fantastically talented and will no doubt make a progressive fusion album one day with Pat Metheny, Pavarotti and Stockhausen which will show what they are really all about and to finally silence any critics there may be out there...

There was a programme about Elton John and Bernie Taupin's early days on BBC4 the other day. Early promise and talent; music college and practice; dedication and singleminded pursuit of a goal in the face of adversity from school and parets etc; obscurity; playing in bands and 'paying dues'; selling out and playing the 'wrong music'; taking chances; working in Denmark St and trying to churn out 'hits'; travelling endlessly; ignored first album; nearly canned until going to the US etc etc. I bet there are many who reckon it was probably pretty easy for Elton because.... Most of the things in the first paragraph (and many more) have been applied to him since. But I'd gues he worked enormously hard at what he did - it doesn't fall on a plate.

It's sad that not everyone with talent makes it. It may be seen to be unfair that some people with less (subjectively perceived) talent than others make the most of it and some with more make the least of it (perhaps perspiration rather than inspiration and all that apply). In most biographies of people who have 'made it' there are a good number of surprises - where people go "well I never knew they sang on cruise ships and workin men's clubs for 10 years before I saw them on the telly" - and things that people have given up or chosen to take chances with.

So my question is - why do people so begrudge people the success that in most spheres they have worked so very very hard to achieve?

And secondly - why does it allow so many people (not specifically talking Mudcat here so let's not have an argument on that level) who have not an iota of the talent to somehow feel that the artist has so let them down and owes them so much?

It doesn't seem to be, as Les said in another thread, whether you like them or not; it seems more to be 'what can I say bad about these people' just because they are there.