BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)

Subject: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 May 11 - 09:50 AM

I've just heard, via AOL news, that a new trial is to be convened for the Stephen Lawrence murder. The full story is below. Let's hope that justice is properly served this time.


Two men are to face trial for the racist murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence after new scientific evidence was uncovered, it can now be reported.

Gary Dobson, 35, and David Norris, 34, are due to go before an Old Bailey jury in November accused of the "calamitous" crime.

Senior judges ruled that the trial could go ahead even though Dobson had been acquitted following a 1996 private prosecution by the Lawrence family.

Stephen's parents Neville and Doreen Lawrence were at the Court of Appeal to hear the decision. Mr Lawrence said he was "pleased". Mrs Lawrence said: "Perhaps somewhere down the line we will finally get justice for him."

Mr Lawrence, an 18-year-old A-level student, was stabbed to death in Eltham, south east London in April 1993.

"The murder of Stephen Lawrence, a young black man of great promise, targeted and killed by a group of white youths just because of the colour of his skin, was indeed a calamitous crime," said the Lord Chief Justice Lord Judge.

The ruling was announced by Lord Judge sitting with Mrs Justice Rafferty and Mr Justice Holroyde. It followed a prosecution application to quash Dobson's earlier acquittal.

He had been cleared of murder at the 1996 trial, along with Luke Knight and Neil Acourt, after purported identification evidence was ruled inadmissible. But Dobson was charged with the crime again, along with Norris, last September, although it could not be reported at the time for legal reasons.

Lifting the blanket reporting restrictions on the case, Lord Judge said the prosecution application to quash Dobson's acquittal was based on new scientific evidence relating to a grey bomber jacket and a multi-coloured cardigan which it was said "closely links" Dobson to the attack.

The Crown Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan Police welcomed the ruling, which followed an application by the Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer QC.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:53 AM

The endemic racialism of the Met was at least highlighted by the original enquiry ! Lets hope the 'New Evidence' gives a satisfatorary result

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:56 AM

Here's something we are at one about, Fred. It would be an absolute disaster if they contrive to weasel out of responsibility for that atrocity yet again. Let's all just hope that won't happen. Thank goodness for modern evidence of the DNA sort; and for the sensible change in the law which came in its wake whereby a re-prosecution could be allowed, even after an acquittal, with great safeguards, if significant new evidence emerges.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 May 11 - 11:23 AM

M. Absolutely. I'll happily fall out with anyone about the monarchy or the economic system or the spending cuts. But if there's a more terrible crime than killing someone because you don't like the colour of their skin, I have yet to find out what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 May 11 - 11:41 AM

Couldn't agree more, Fred!

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 11 - 12:00 PM

Whoa - doesn't the UK have double-jeopardy? If one was already acquitted of the crime, how can he be re-tried, new evidence or no?

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 May 11 - 12:06 PM

No. The law was changed some years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:31 PM

Wow. That must make for some interesting legal wrangles.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:35 PM

Mrrzy ~~ see my post of 10.56 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Rumncoke
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:57 PM

To have a retrial after an acquital there has to be significant new evidence, and it is considered before a new trial can be started.

I'm afraid I forget who considers it, but the system was put in place as advances in forensic techniques meant that old verdicts could be appealed and in some cases reversed by a simple DNA test on evidence kept in storage.

It seemed only fair that the same techniques which proved someone innocent after being found guilty could also be used in a second accusation after a not guilty verdict.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 May 11 - 07:05 PM

Yeah.....Happy to remain with Double Jeopardy. Much as I see the point, I also have no trust in human beings. One group of justices decide one thing, a different group another.

By the end of the Johnson administration the Supreme Court had effectively ended the death penalty in the United States. Than along came Nixon at a time several Supremes left the court and Tricky Dicky got his guys in. Zoom....Death Penalty!!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: alanabit
Date: 19 May 11 - 12:39 AM

It is a difficult case. The police have long been sure that they have identified the thugs who murdered Stephen Lawrence, but have as yet been unable to obtain evidence convincing enough to get them banged up. I can well imagine that it was also difficult to get witnesses to testify against these violent young men for fear of reprisals. While I understand the concerns of our American friends, I hope that convictions are possible this time around. Our streets must be made safe for the likes of Stephen Lawrence, not the beasts who murdered him. That is our priority.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 11 - 04:38 AM

When the previous attempts to convict failed, the much maligned Daily Mail named 5, including theses 2, as the murderers and challenged them to sue.
They declined.
I hope that does not jeopardize this trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:05 AM

it won't. Long technical reasons but I think it's basically to do with the fact that DM issued this challenge after they had been acquitted at the previous trial.

My feeling is that this prosecution would not have been issued if the Crown didn't feel they had a very good chance of sustaining convictions.

I just hope that enough evidence now comes to life to incarcerate the other three as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 24 May 11 - 02:13 PM

Anne Frank was a teenager who was killed by a state led by fascist thugs, because she was Jewish.

Stephen Lawrence was a teenager who was killed by fascist thugs because he was black.

What's the difference?

I hope that they all, victims and criminals, get the justice they deserve, maybe without the interference of the gutter press this time.

Maybe one of our legal Catters (Richard perhaps), might like to comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:49 PM

I think if more up to date evidence or evidence that negates that previously given is used to acquit people previouly found guilty - as in the George Davis case - then by the same token it should also be possible to re-try someone previously found innocent. It has been accepted for many years that better forensics and better systems can cast doubt on any prior case. Whether the defendant was found guilty or innocent should be irrelevent and such newer evidence should be able to overturn any prior ruling. Just my 2 penn'urth.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:56 PM

---Anne Frank was a teenager who was killed by a state led by fascist thugs, because she was Jewish.

Stephen Lawrence was a teenager who was killed by fascist thugs because he was black.

What's the difference?---

Well, the difference, Peter, is that poor Anne Frank was killed legally, according to the laws in force where she had the misfortune to be living at the time. This reply is no attempt to justify any thuggish killing of anyone, but simply as a factual answer to your question. I still hope that the disgusting creatures who killed poor Stephen will belatedly get their just deserts this time around.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:36 PM

I'm sure I posted about the Contempt of Court Act and its relationship to common law contempt. I'm beginning to think the post eater is getting personal.

Subject: BS: Stephen Lawerance
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:49 PM

Stepen Lawrance mureders have found guilty now to get the other three, a good result

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 03:51 PM

the two have been found guilty

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:00 PM

Well, the difference, is that poor Anne Frank was killed legally, according to the laws in force where she had the misfortune to be living at the time.

Anne Frank died of typhus while in Bergen Belsen.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 04:33 PM

It seems to me the principle of Res Judicata is a rather fundamental doctrine of most governments in the world where incarceration and punishment is not allowed to become a tool of repression by the government, and particularly bearing on the suppression of those in opposition to said government. The danger in weakening such a fundamental principle is the loss of protection for all of us, even when additional proof comes to light.
In the same way Freedom of Speech allows a Ku Klux Klansman to rail against blacks, Jews and immigrants, it allows those in diametric philosophical opposition to the Klansman to question the unrestricted and illegal use of power by the government.
We should never celebrate the fundamental erosion of an important right in the name of a short term and specific satisfactory result without considering the long term implications.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:07 PM

The outcome of this case was decided months ago, the judge was clearly directing the jury due to government pressure despite the fact that the evidence against the two chaps was contaminated and the case against them failed miserably several years ago.

A bald female blasted the British police tonight saying they were incompetent and their ability to solve crime was anything but reassuring. I would fully understand if she decided to leave Britain now the case is over to live in some other jurisdiction in which she felt safe.

A sad day for British justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 05:12 PM

Peter Laban ~ that is a quote from me, from some way back, which you appear to be replying to. To which I rejoin: yes, I know. So what is your point?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:59 PM

I don't know this case in the UK, but perhaps some of you recall the mockery of a trail that happened around OJ Simpson. He also was acquitted in the criminal trial. I suspect the line "Senior judges ruled that the trial could go ahead even though Dobson had been acquitted following a 1996 private prosecution by the Lawrence family" offers a clue - this sounds to be the equivalent of a civil trial here in the U.S., when individuals or companies sue each other for various reasons. While the prosecution in the Simpson trial was evidently unable to prove the case, the civil case had a different set of standards to meet to find guilt and the Brown family won their suit and took Simpson to the financial cleaners.

I'd be willing to get that the "private prosecution" is the same and wouldn't affect a criminal prosecution.

Not a sad day at all for British Justice, if minority citizens finally begin see crimes against them prosecuted and generally treated as a serious matter.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 04:35 AM

Stephen's father Neville Lawrence, who said that along with the intervention of Nelson Mandela, who met the Lawrence family after the murder, this newspaper's (Daily Mail) campaign was the crucial turning point in the case: 'I was in Jamaica when you ran that headline but the people who were running the campaign at the time phoned immediately to tell me what you had done.
'I was very pleased, but I admit that at first I was frightened, too, because I realised the implications. If you name people as murderers you have to be pretty sure you have the proof or you'll be in trouble.
'But the fact that the Mail – which is a very influential newspaper – went out on a limb for us showed how committed you were to the case. Not a lot of editors would have done that. Not a lot would have chanced it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081914/Stephen-Lawrences-parents-lead-tributes-Daily-Mail.html


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081914/Stephen-Lawrences-parents-lead-tributes-Daily-Mail.html#ixzz1iTpQArp7

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:03 AM

Like many living in the UK today, we are sick and tired of carpet slipper treatment concerning race. What about those who burn the union flag at the homecoming of dead service men and women.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Arnie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:17 AM

The hope now must be that these two will accept the reality of their guilty verdict and give evidence against the other three murderers in return for a lighter sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:51 AM

"Sam" might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime.
Such murders are mercifully very rare (though another did occur last week), but not the murder of black youths which is a major plague in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:52 AM

A discussion of the double jeopardy point by the learned Joshua Rozenberg here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/jan/03/double-jeopardy-change-law-retrial?newsfeed=true

It will be seen that it could not assist Dobson in any case.

The extent of the evidential contamination was exhaustively analysed in the trial and I see no reason to think that the jury got it wrong. The two unpleasant racists now found guilty were there, and there is no reason that I can see for any significant doubt that they were involved in the attack that included the murder.

I find what Keith is trying to say very opaque. Clarity would assist in evaluation but at the moment it rather look as as if Keith is saying (or even agreeing with "Sam", if that is what Sam is trying to say which would not surprise me) that Afro-Caribbean youths deserve to be killed because Muslims sometimes burn the Union Jack or protest at the funerals of soldiers. I'm sure that is not what Keith means to say but it looks a bit that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:58 AM

Give me a break Richard!
I am saying that black youths die almost daily with little media attention or campaigning, while these very rare crimes are massive stories.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:37 AM

Sentenced to 14 and 15 years, they will be out in less than six years with 50% remission and time already spent in custody. Appeal already submitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:37 AM

Ignore SamH's nonsense about 50% remission above.

They were sentenced to life, not 14 and 15 years.
14 and 15 years is how long they will have to wait before becoming eligible for parole. And to get parole then, they will have to acknowlege guilt, which seems improbable.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:42 AM

Right. That was the minimum term they must serve.
The hope is they will acknowledge guilt and testify against others.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 08:45 AM

The parents of Stephen must have suffered dreadfully all these years. Maybe now they can move forward a little and rebuild their lives. I really pity them.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:33 AM

Gary Dobson will serve a minimum of 15 years and two months, and David Norris 14 years and three months.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:59 AM

Keith says "I am saying that black youths die almost daily with little media attention or campaigning, while these very rare crimes are massive stories."

I'd value sources for that. A short rummage on the internet does not reveal "almost daily" murders of black youth - the closest I turned up was a bit out of date and 104 black murder and GBH victims a few years back in London.

It's frequently stated that victims are more likely to be black than white, and sometimes that this is the result of black on black violence, but since the UK murder rate hovers at about 600 per year I'm having a bit of trouble matching Keith's figures.

I'm even less clear what "these very rare crimes" are by way of definition.

But I'm almost wholly confused when Keith says ""Sam" might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime". Sam actually said "carpet slipper treatment concerning race". What it is that Keith is almost agreeing with?

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:04 AM

But three more swaggering thugs to go - unless the Met. give up due to cost cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:26 AM

Let's hope they now re-open the investigation into the brutal murder
of PC Keith Blakelock now. Treat this new investigation
with the same rigour.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:09 PM

Is Jim Radford reading this? The BBC reports on his "Song for Stephen" here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16315568

I can't find a version on-line. Is there one?

Jim Radford's site

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:24 PM

It is just so sad that the loved ones of any murder victim should have to wait more than 18 years for some justice and to have to fight for it all the way. As well as the loss they have suffered this must have taken a terrible toll.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:11 PM

One good thing to come out of this is it has got a lot of people thinking and expressing their views as shown on the BBC news tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: fat B****rd
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:43 PM

Good evening , Sam. By 'a lot of people' do you mean the elderly gentleman who said it was a "Stitch-ap" and used the n****r word?.
I do however agree regarding the PC Blakelock murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:46 PM

What George said.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:13 AM

You are misrepresenting me again Richard.
I am not disagreeing with anything you have posted on this.
I was referring to the fact that black youths are also disproportionately the victims of non-racist violent crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM

I am grateful for your second sentence Keith.

But I still don't understand what you meant by "Sam might have a point about the emphasis placed on race crime".

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:07 AM

Funny, I seem to have had a post of careful unspecificity modded off. Either that or the post eater is at it again although I was pretty sure I saw it take.

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: banjoman
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:12 AM

I suggest the Doreen Lawrence should be recognised for the changes she has worked for for to find justice for her son. A remarkable woman - Deserves at least a Nobel Prize

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:12 AM

I see a Labour MP who has been promoted far beyond her capabilities now facing calls for her resignation over the case.This what you get when people are promoted to fill quota's.



http://uk.news.yahoo.com/diane-abbott-faces-calls-to-resign-over-%E2%80%98racist%E2%80%99-tweet.html

Samantha

Subject: RE: BS: Stephen Lawrence Murder (1993)
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 08:00 AM

I thought Doreen and her ex-husband were awarded honours a few years ago for their charity work arising out of their son's murder.