How many wandering musicians can't find a session?

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 06:43 AM

well in the UK (Mid West parts thereof) you could try cresby.com and if my lists are not enough try the numerous links I provide to other information junkies. Both around my area and further a-field. I even have links to Scandinavia and parts of North America.

And if you want to find all that I list within a radius of a chosen town try my "found here" page and choose a town/village.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 07:48 PM

I am that guest. Flippin' BT fon or whatever it calls itself...

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 07:44 PM

Howya Ted. My chrom playing has improved no end... ;-)

Steve (Martin's mate...)

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Ted Crum (Steamchicken)
Date: 03 Jun 11 - 07:10 PM

Try the Moor and Coast tent. Almost always a nexus of music after the pubs shut.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 07:50 PM

Oh dear. Unless my eyes deceive me I've just realised that ALL the typo here on Mudcat has got smaller! Better go to Specsavers!

Hope I aren't to blame and all other typo size was changed to come into line so folk can post longer titles like mine. If so, I apologise in advance if you don't like it.

Chris

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 07:26 PM

We ARE talking about BOTH singing or playing sessions at festivals Les.

Clumsily I entered a thread title that was far too long ("How many wandering musicians/singers can't find a session?")but because it was far too long it came out as "How many wandering musicians/singers can" (see start of this thread)!

So I contacted Joe Offer to see if he could help me out so it made more sense and Joe very kindly reduced the typo as much as possible but it wasn't possible to include the "/singers" as well.

Joe did a great job and I am very grateful for his interjection and it was my silly fault for not thinking when I posted the thread in the first place. Doh!

So please do take into account that we are looking at the needs of BOTH musicians AND singers here and not just musicians.

Hope that makes some sense and clears up any confusion.

Many thanks.

Chris

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: LesB
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 12:46 PM

Why has this thread become 'another Sidmouth thread'? The world doesn't start & and at Sidmouth. There are plenty of other festivals out there.
For my tu pence worth. If we are talking about sessions (singing or playing) at festivals, then the money spent on food/drink/accomadation, goes into the local economy. Not the festival bank account.
I feel that if sessions are held at a festival then it is beholding of the participants to contribute something financially to the festival (even if only passing a collecting tin around). Otherwise there won't be a festival & it'll just be a bunch of people meeting in a pub (although there is now't wrong with that).
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 02 Jun 11 - 09:33 AM

Much of what you say makes a lot of sense ripov. How was Sidmouth?

Chris

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 11 - 03:45 AM

Ripov, you will be pleased to hear that the new website was not at all expensive as these things go. The design was created for us by Jude Abbot of Chumbawamba (a collective not really known for their capitalist greed) - when she's not making music, she's a web designer. The artwork was created by Bryan Ledgard, as part of his wider brief as designer for the festival. So very cost-efficient.

We only sell advance tickets for some events, so these are the ones currently advertised on the website. When the full programme is on sale next month it will, as always, be downloadable from the website, and all information about workshops and fringe venues (and many other events) will be there.

Joan Crump

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:08 PM

Glad to hear it. At six foot nowt I'm only little...

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 11 - 02:47 PM

Steve...Scary I'm not! Lol!
Ripov....a parasite?....Mmmmm sounds tasty.
Actually, this year, I will be part of the various sound crews inhabiting the Bedford and Manor Pavilion. (No Fee) At other times I'll be playing tunes in the Radway. Do come and say hello.
Regards

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 11 - 01:07 PM

I might be there too, but that Ralphie guy sounds a bit scary... ;-)

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: ripov
Date: 27 May 11 - 11:54 AM

Mr Schofield, I stand corrected re the Radway. I must buy your book. Although by "session" I meant the meeting of musicians dancers and singers which I had understood were centred around the Radway originally, and at which I have no doubt music was played. I was not suggesting that any sort of music was played in the local pubs before that time, although most pubs in that era had pianos, which might presuppose that there were reasonably competent pianists in the community, if not other instrumentalists, and who played fairly frequently.

I would take issue with you over the history of sessions (but not here), but certainly the festival session where musicians play frantically for several hours until they are exhausted, and are then replaced with fresh blood, the process repeating until the publican wishes to retire, are a modern phenomenon.(although it sounds a bit like a pagan religious rite!)

If local traders profit from the festival (and they may not all do so - I don't see many saucepans bought in that marvellous shop in the middle of Sidmouth) it is only fair that they support the festival either financially or in kind. Name and shame them. If the Radway doesn't support the festival, I for one will neither play nor drink there, regardless of how good the musicians may be.

******

With a couple of exceptions I don't think there has been any "festival bashing".Sidmouth especially has provided examples, because many of us are familiar with it. I referred to the Middlewich programme beacause there was no mention of sessions, but I see on the current pages there are several listed under "Fringe".

The Sidmouth programme also has listed "fringe" session venues recently, and apparently will this year, but there is no mention of this on the (very attractive, but I hope not very expensive) website, nor any mention of workshops or tickets for them. Worrying.

*******

I am upset and annoyed that musicians playing in sessions at festivals are regarded as parasites by some people. They might reflect that the festival is to celebrate the music that we and our predecessors, and our counterparts in other countries, have played through the centuries, whether or not in uninterrupted sequence.

Joan, you know I've said before that we folkies are quite capable of having our own festival without an outside organisation to run it. But I, and all those I know, really do appreciate the effort you put in that we couldn't, most especially the facilities for children to become familiar with music while their parents have the chance to go off and dance and play, and for the more mature young musicians to learn more about the music they play. (for "music" read "almost all art forms!").   Thanks to you all.


See you in Sidmouth! I intend to enjoy it.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 11 - 10:53 AM

For the record (and it's not the first time I've said it) the festival management really values the fringe. As you may know, the festival receives local government support and sponsorship from local businesses. This is in part because of what's known as the "Sidmouth Spike" - an estimated £1.5m of extra revenue which comes into the town during folkweek. If you come, eat, drink, stay locally - you are contributing to the perceived benefit to the town of having the festival there. Of course, the festival is also very grateful for the money contributed to the collecting tins, which helps to pay for some of the provision such as bands and ceilidhs at the Anchor (which are free entry) and street theatre in the town. And people who buy tickets are absolutely essential to the festival's viability. But we have no gripe with those who don't.

I would also add that we publicise fringe venues in the festival programme.


Joan Crump
Artistic Director
Sidmouth FolkWeek

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 11 - 09:46 AM

Well, Ralphie, there have been posts here... moral obligations and all that. For the record, in answer to the bloke above you, I'm pro-Sidmouth and have no reason to bash the festival. It's grand. It's the attitude expressed by some persons here that somehow I'm not doing my bit if I show up and don't spend dosh on the actual festival that I'm not keen on. That's all. I have shown up on a number of occasions, spent dosh and had a rattling good time. I did once go and not spend dosh, which is fine too, eh?

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:32 AM

Steve. I am now confused? Who on earth is telling you to buy a season ticket? Who is telling you that you must attend a concert/workshop/whatever?
If you want to spend a week in Sidmouth ....Fine
If you want to attend events.....Fine
If you want to sit on the Prom playing tunes.....Fine
Who exactly is telling you that you can't do what you want to do?
To my knowledge, the people I know turn up Sidmouth to say hello to old mates, hopefully make new ones, play tunes, sing songs, see some top name artists, whilst having a holiday in a very pretty town. What's your problem with that?
I'll repeat myself. If you don't approve, go somewhere else. There are thousands of people who will turn up, as they do every year. Your abscence won't be missed.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:12 AM

LDT. Don't worry yourself. There are lots of people with anti Sidmouth agendas out there. It's normally around this time of year that they start bleating. I'm not sure what thir agenda might be, but it means nothing really, the festival still continues anyway! As you say, If you don't like it, don't go! (Or indeed find your own seaside town and start your own festival)

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:02 AM

*sigh* Why must every thread mentioning festivals turn into a 'Sidmouth Bashing' thread?
I was finding it an interesting topic....till the Sidmouth word was mentioned. I don't understand why people who hate something so much go every year it seems?

*Puts tin helmet on and ducks below parapet*

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 11 - 06:45 AM

OK Ralphie, I was a bit harsh there I admit. But to me it is a crock of shite with occasional gleaming diamonds because, for my sins, my tastes in traditional music are somewhat restricted. My problem. What I was trying to say was that me being who I am, not being prepared to fork out hundreds for a season ticket, and even daring to turn up on days when there is no act I wish to pay for and see, does not make me a freeloader. Sidmouth folk festival is not entitled to tell me that I am somehow less welcome to hang around as much as I want to in Sidmouth during that week just because I don't want to pay money to see stuff I'd rather not bother with. As I said, I have paid to get into a number of events over the years, which neither makes me better nor worse than anyone else hanging out in Sidmouth that week, doing whatever legal and free things are available. And call me Steve. If I'm there I'll be that hairy-faced bugger playing Irish tunes on my blues harps. On the prom tiddley-om-pom-pom.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 May 11 - 06:38 AM

And IF a Landlord decides to book a Rock Band to try to attract drinkers to his pub , thats not the Festivals fault either ! [...] DONT just slag a Festival off if the local pubs dont want the 'Hairy Arsed Folkie Crowd' cluttering up their space !!

It may not be the festival's fault, but if they can't do something about it I'm not going. I've got better things to do with my time than alternate between listening to concerts and hanging around pubs that have deservedly unknown local covers bands making both music and speech impossible. And there are enough people who think the same way as I do that a festival that ignores the problem is set for terminal decline.

Whitby gets this right. Woodbridge got it about as wrong as it is possible to be. Auchtermuchty got it wrong once and dealt with the problem.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 May 11 - 01:29 AM

Although agreeing broadly with Mr Shaw, re Sidmouth being just a town, that week and indeed for the rest of the year, I feel I must pull him up on the "Crock Of Shite" comment. maybe it would be better to say, "Some of the artists are not to my taste" A view with which I would agree. For example, as a non singer, I never go to the Anchor, as a non dancer, I avoid dance workshops, though I do go to ceilidhs when there's musicians playing that I enjoy. As for the "Fringe/Session" scene. Sidmouth is indeed lucky to have venues that allow things to happen, a lot of town festivals don't. All of which adds to the general bonhomie of the week. I know some people (who wouldn't know a folk song if it slapped them in the face) who go on holiday in Sidmouth week, just to soak up the ambience. They don't buy tickets for events, mainly because it's expensive enough for accomodation anyway, and they probably haven't heard of any of the artists too! But, they can wander into various pubs, hear singing, tunes, whatever...Various ad-hoc dance displays in the town centre and elsewhere, and have a jolly good time.
What's not to like about that?
On the whole, I think that Sidmouth gets the balance right. Well, it must be, It's been going for 56 years! (same age as me, so, I didn't get to the first one!)
Every festival here in the UK has to juggle their desires within a difficult economic framework, some have gone to the wall, which is sad. But, some continue to survive. I'm just grateful that a lot of unsung heroes carry on carrying on.
See some of you in August!

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:18 PM

Sidmouth is a town during Sidmouth week, just like it's a town at any other time. In this great nation of ours we do not have laws that either ban or criticise people for going to a town, for whatever legal reason, just because a folk festival happens to be on. If I go to Sidmouth during Sidmouth week and do not buy a ticket (I do buy one sometimes as it happens) I am no more a freeloader than if I go to Sidmouth at any other time of the year. Actually, I go to Sidmouth pretty frequently as I happen to have relatives who live in Sidmouth and in nearby East Budleigh and Exmouth. 'Tis pleasant to stroll along the prom on a fine day at any time of the year. When I go to Sidmouth I buy stuff in shops, go to tea rooms, have the odd pint and pay good money to park me car. If I happen along to Sidmouth during Sidmouth week, do some or all of these things, bring along my harmonicas and have a tune or ten wherever I can find an opportunity, I am not a freeloader. It so happens that I am there on a day when there is no band I wish to see, that's all. And I will not buy a season ticket because Sidmouth, like all such events, is, except to hard-core aficionados of the genre, a crock of shite (with occasional gleaming diamonds embedded) when it comes to stuff you have to pay for to get into. This is a free country, and I can go into towns if I want at any time and I do not wish to be called a freeloader for so doing, thanks! And, let's face it, if the sun is out and you want a tune, you can always sit on the sea front and play. Plenty of room.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:50 PM

The New Tavern Session in Sidmouth (Overflow bar for Carinas Nightclub) has ALWAYS been a 'Fringe' event despite the fact that for several years it has been listed on the Sidmouth Programme as Gerry Milne and Friends . AND on the Festival Map too !
Its completely free , except that we DO have an Official Festival collecting tin which Gerry rattles fairly regularly .
Sidmouth is fortunate in that it has a number of pubs where all sorts of things happen during the Festival week , including quiet boozing and socialising .
Sadly , some towns and small villages DONT have spare Bar space for informal sessions , which is NOT the fault of the Festival Organisers
And IF a Landlord decides to book a Rock Band to try to attract drinkers to his pub , thats not the Festivals fault either !
Lets try and be reasonable - As I said earlier in this thread , I am NOT a Listening Oik , but DO like to have a sing/play with other like minded people , so DONT just slag a Festival off if the local pubs dont want the 'Hairy Arsed Folkie Crowd' clurttering up their space !!

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:31 PM

I wrote a book about the Sidmouth Festival.
It started in 1955, organised by EFDSS.
There were no "sessions" in the Radway before that - i doubt if the session concept in modern-day understanding had been invented then! :-) From 1949, the EFDSS organised Whit tours of Devon - morris and country dance displays - and Sidmouth was included, and by 1951 the displays were in the Connaught gardens! Early festivals saw a bit of informal music in the marine, and perhaps the Volunteer, but nothing reported in the Radway.
Incidentally, the radway is not a current Festival sponsor.
Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: ripov
Date: 26 May 11 - 06:44 PM

1. the Radway sessions over what was the August Bank Holiday were going on courtesey of EFDSS long before there was a festival.
2. The Radway had to be shamed into making a contribution to Sidmouth Festival. When the music ians discovered the pub was putting nothing back in they changed venue, with the result that the pub is now a sponsor of the festival.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 26 May 11 - 06:32 PM

Among the mixed messages seems to be a complaint that festivals are failing to provide venues for sessions, even though those sessions may be attended by people who haven't bought a festival ticket.

There are two types of session - those which form part of the festival programme and those on the fringe. The former are usually hosted by festival guests and it's quite possible that they have a different idea of how to run them than your expectations. That's not necessarily their fault, it may be what they've been briefed to do. Some "sessions" are actually intended to be opportunities to meet and play along with well-known musicians.

The other sort just happen. In my experience most festivals do identify which pubs are likely to welcome sessions, but they can't arrange for all pubs to be music-friendly, neither can they dictate to landlords what bands they can put on in their own pub.

If you don't like the way a festival organises its programmed sessions it's up to you to decide to go, or leave if it's not to your liking, just like any other festival event. To complain that they're not organising fringe sessions as well seems unreasonable to me, especially when the festival won't receive any income.

Ralphie mentioned the Radway. Great English music sessions, and for me one of the main reasons to go to Sidmouth. However they wouldn't happen without the festival. To go to Sidmouth and sit in the Radway all week without making any financial contribution to the festival seems to me mean-spirited. In reality, most people do make a contribution, whether its buying a full season ticket or just tickets to individual events.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: reggie miles
Date: 26 May 11 - 12:51 PM

Guest Ralpie, you are correct, there do seem to be a lot of mixed messages going on in this thread. In the case of our local "Folk" festival, the term must be considered in the loosest possible context. Because those who have been charged with the organization of this event have tried their best to feature everything and anything and much of it can hardly be classified as Folk. As such, there are those who still recall the beginnings of this event and yearn for what it used to be.

While the event still clings to the past name rights, that features the word 'Folk' prominently, it is a mere shadow of the event it used to be. It now resembles something more like your standard variety music event, that focuses more on loud electric acts, than it does acoustic based music as it once did. Bluegrass music, and those who love that genre, played a primary role in the beginnings of this event. Of late, each year, the volume levels of the amplified stages and the casual drum circle, which sets up in the very heart of the event, has managed to increase, until those who love the occasional Bluegrass jam can hardly find a quiet moment to share an intimate acoustic tune together on the grounds.

Now compound the volume of the audio cacophony of this phony Folk event with the shamelessly bizarre way it treats actual Folk performance artists, performing acoustically on the grounds as street performers and you might begin to see the twisted and warped creature that this event has become. They not only have unconstitutional rules in place that restrict the actions of those exercising their First Amendment rights to freedom of expression, which is in direct violation of the law, but they also are asking that those who perform on the grounds, and accept donations, offer 15% to the event. Mind you, this is an event that has never offered a single dime to any of the performers who have supported this festival with their talents, freely, for decades. The hypocrisy of this request is beyond my comprehension.

The only reason for it seems to be that the event wants the power to be in control of those who choose to simply offer their acoustic entertainment on the grounds. The love of money, and in this case the lust for power, is the root of all evil actions. They attempt to gain power, over the legal actions of those offering to freely entertain on the grounds, by first painting all of those who choose do so with the broad brush of being 'out of control'. Then they wrangle together what are actually illegal restrictions and use threat of force, and actual force, against those who are acting within the law by labeling them as criminal for doing so.

That's how this event has turned the act of offering Folk music, on public property, into a criminal offense. Fortunately, the courts have ruled just the opposite. Playing Folk music on public property is not a crime!

What is truly bizarre, is why this event feigns ignorance of the law. It is they who are, in fact, out of control and out of line, in their attempts at trying to demonize and criminalize the playing of Folk music or any aspect of freedom of expression.

This event has grown fat via those who have volunteered their time, energy and their music freely and now that it has become bloated with success, they've taken to biting the hand that's been feeding that success.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 May 11 - 06:42 AM

Jack. It is certainly an enigma.
My specific example was thinking of the Volunteer in Sidmouth. At lunchtime the bar is full of mainly Trad singers and a sort of house band doing the odd tune. In the evening the other bar does a similar thing. But, in the back garden it's a bit more like a mixture of local bands/open mic thing. All seem to sit happily with each other. And in the Vollys defence, The pub survives the rest of the year on the takings from the Festival. It would have shut years ago without it. And I've never noticed any binge drinking there. As I say, every venue is different.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 11 - 06:32 AM

In a town based festival, some pubs may take advantage of all the possible extra clients in town, to put on non folk events if they've got the space, to get local bands to play....(Not organised by the festival)

I think that was a lot of what the OP was complaining about, and what I've found a problem - those local bands are NOT what the people attending the festival for its folk music content want to hear. But a lot of festivals attract locals for the atmosphere, or because the folk festival has been arranged to coincide with an independently organized community festival of some sort. A lot of the younger locals will expect to do some binge drinking as part of this, and the music that pubs will want to encourage that will usually be some local rock band. So you get competition for pub venues, which a session will usually lose, since, busy as it may be, it doesn't have people swilling it down the way the audience for indie-rock do.

There isn't an easy solution for this. You can't very well tell publicans to take measures to sell less booze. Sometimes it just gets to the point where the police or licencing authorities intervene, but they're as likely to simply prevent the festival going ahead at all as to try to socially engineer what happens in town venues.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 May 11 - 06:02 AM

Seems to be a lot of mixed messages going on here.
My two pennies.
1. Session/Singaround. Well, my main experience is Sidmouth. Anchor for songs, Radway for tunes, Bedford for a bit of a mix of both. All three are not lead by anyone, except for the stick tradition for the songs. Which makes sense really, 8 different songs being sung at the same time might start to resemble Stockhausen!
2. Open Mics. Normally half organised, name on a list type of thing, Small PA, bit like a singers night at a folk club.
3. In a town based festival, some pubs may take advantage of all the possible extra clients in town, to put on non folk events if they've got the space, to get local bands to play....(Not organised by the festival)
4. Freeloaders? Well having been booked as a paid artist many times at Sidmouth in the past, I still enjoy going, Pay for my own B&B (Not cheap) and if I fancy a concert, I'll buy a ticket. I go, mainly to see old friends and play with them, I don't think that's freeloading? Surely it all just adds to the general festive mood.
5, Marquee style festivals (Towersey for instance) They have a day ticket policy, You can get on site for a tenner, and enjoy the stalls food, ambience, etc, and normally at some point an impromptu session will kick off in the bar. There was a cracking one last year, went on for about 5 hours, and some pretty well known booked performers popped in for a pint and a tune. Not bad for a tenner.
Obviously all festivals are different, depending on their situation/location. I think it's just a case of doing a bit of research before deciding where to go. As a non singer, I wouldn't expect to go to an all singing festival and start playing lots of tunes would I?

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:34 AM

The young set, I think mostly students on or graduates of the Newcastle folk sausage machine and their chums, are without doubt exceptionally talented musicians and for the most part jolly nice chaps. Let me say that first. BUT common courtesy seems lacking.   When they get together in a session us mere mortals who have been keeping the traditions alive so that they can get degrees out of it and hopefully a career as well, don't have a *** in ***'s chance of slipping in the odd Rakes of Mallow. I was told that at Shepley last weekend the bar man in the beer tent asked them to stop and let somebody else have a chance for once.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:33 AM

Sound like the problem is advertising and making what's 'on offer' clear. Session obviously has too many meanings and should erhaps be clarified?

I may be wrong but I sometimes I think that there is a fair chance it might be be the paid artist(s) role that needs clarifying.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:18 AM

That's often the problem. What's advertised as a session (I'm not necessarily talking about Middlewich of which I know nothing) quite often turns out to be a band performance in all but name. A session isn't just playing along with a lead musician; a good session is like a conversation, involving give and take, and does not have a predetermined agenda.
Sound like the problem is advertising and making what's 'on offer' clear. Session obviously has too many meanings and should erhaps be clarified?

I don't think I've ever been to a session where I haven't paid somewhere along the line (ticket price or popping money in a bucket on way in).

If your looking particularly for sessions....then maybe your looking in the wrong place. If you investigate carefully there are events that have 'sessions' and no 'big name bands' playing on a stage, but they might not be called 'Folk Festivals'.

I have to say when I go to festivals I always pay the ticket fee....then only see a handful of acts coz I'm too busy in the session (and have to admit when I've found the official sessions to fast or hard for me sat down in a quiet spot, started playing and was soon joined by other beginners) or going to the workshops.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians can't find a session?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:01 AM

If you go somewhere a festival is taking place for the purpose of playing in sessions with other musicians who wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the festival then surely you have a moral obligation to make a financial contribution to the festival.

While I'm not saying I would not contribute a little (eg. someone's collecting tin suggestion or maybe an individual concert ticket), I would feel no moral obligation to do so.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: ripov
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:15 PM

I've been very calm and sensible. I've edited a lot out!

I suppose, though, despite the wearying trudge from one pub to another, the best sessions nearly always happen accidentally, and we wouldn't really appreciate them being organised for us!

But I do think that as musicians we make a contribution to festivals that is taken for granted or ignored.


Crowhugger, my understanding about what the "fringe" is, is that in earlier times (20 years ago) it meant exactly what we've been discussing, eg the informal gatherings of whatever type of art is represented at a festival, freely provided by people who do it for love of their art (whether or not they make money out of it at other times). We're still discussing that aspect because thats how folk music works, but the financial people have discovered that here is another way to make money (I think Edinborough festival (Drama) was the first to discover this, and is probably the most famous (in the UK)), so they have managed to change the meaning to what you originally understood.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: Soldier boy
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:18 PM

Calm down folks. Take a deep breath and let's talk calmly and sensibly. Please.

Chris

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: ripov
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:03 PM

BTW I don't mean to denigrate the people who organise festivals (includes you), they do some amazing work, but it would be really nice if they thought just a little bit about what FOLK music is all about.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: ripov
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:51 PM

We have a moral obligation to contribute to the organisation that provides somewhere for us to play. Normally we play in a pub, and contribute to them by drinking their beer, possibly buying food there, and hopefully attracting an audience of more paying customers.
If the festival organisers don't want us enough to ask around and find where musicians may be welcome, why do we owe them anything?
Do they think that because we ask for nothing (except somewhere to play) we're worth nothing?

Do you think we travel long distances and spend several hundred pounds (check accomodation prices in Sidmouth for festival week) just to go to a session?

Would you say that non-musicians who hear about a festival and drive down for the day, spending it in the pubs listening to music are "freeloaders". Or could they just be a potential paying audience for next year?
You, sessionman, didn't actually use the term "freeloaders", you said "hanging on to the festivals coat tails". Perhaps you couild define this a bit more tightly. Do you mean standing outside the flaps of the big tent trying to hear a bit of a bands' performance? I've done that. Try before you buy! Sometimes you buy, sometimes you think "not for me".
Or do you mean the "travelling people" who invariably appear at festivals. Do you think their busking, or face-painting, provides them with an income adequate to buy festival tickets? Just be pleased that the festival attracts a few more customers for them.
Or what are you on about?

It's always sad that a festival has to be cancelled, but it's a sad fact that nobody can be certain how well off they will be in six months time. Personally I would buy workshop tickets in advance (again for Sidmouth) if they were available, but nothing else.

Regarding "led" sessions, a good leader will let the session run itself, just "lifting" it if it starts to falter. The ones that try to be "in charge" still have a bit to learn; but it's quite possible to have a quiet word with them! Of course if they're being paid by the organisers they may feel they need to show they're earning their money.

Blimming heck, this 'asn't 'alf got me in "grumpy old man" mode!

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:37 PM

If you go somewhere a festival is taking place for the purpose of playing in sessions with other musicians who wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the festival then surely you have a moral obligation to make a financial contribution to the festival. Otherwise you might find it won't be there next year. That's what I meant by putting the festival in jeopardy.

There have been a number of festivals which have been cancelled not because they had lost money but because advance ticket sales weren't good enough and the organisers felt they couldn't take the risk.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:40 PM

I see lunchtime/afternoon sessions at several venues and one venue having a session/singaround in the evening. Is there a demand for more than that? (Jack Campin)

That's often the problem. What's advertised as a session (I'm not necessarily talking about Middlewich of which I know nothing) quite often turns out to be a band performance in all but name. A session isn't just playing along with a lead musician; a good session is like a conversation, involving give and take, and does not have a predetermined agenda.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: ripov
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:32 PM

No! The folk festival operates on the back of the musicians who played the music when it was young, and wrote it down (sorry traditionalists!) so that others might enjoy it (yes and to make a few pennies - and I didn't say that commercial was wrong, only that it must pay its own expenses) or maybe still are writing music, and the ones who in the past, and now, endeavour to popularise it and encourage others to join in by learning instruments or singing or whatever, IN THE COMMUNITY.

And the ones who let the festivals down by not supporting them are not visiting musicians, as you must know, but local traders, who get the benefits of extra sales, but often will make no contribution to the festival.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:44 PM

Everyone who takes advantage of the sessions which take place on the fringe of the festival, and which wouldn't be happening without it, and who doesn't make a financial contribution to the festival is putting its future in jeopardy.
How?

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:31 PM

I'm not sure it's right to distinguish between small festivals run for the love if and those organised on a commercial basis. Most of the large "commercial" festivals are actually run on a not-for-profit basis, and organised by enthusiasts who also do it for the love of it.

The point is that a festival is the magnet which attracts musicians to come and play in the sessions. If they only come to play, without putting something back in the festival kitty, they're doing that on the back of the festival. In most cases the profit from a festival doesn't go to individuals, it's all ploughed back into the next year's festival. Everyone who takes advantage of the sessions which take place on the fringe of the festival, and which wouldn't be happening without it, and who doesn't make a financial contribution to the festival is putting its future in jeopardy. Some would call that freeloading.

I have some sympathy with festivals who want to put on performers in pubs. They may be short of other venues, or it may be a way of getting the festival out into the local community rather than just being something going on in a field on the edge of town. Personally I wouldn't go to a festival which didn't give me the opportunity to play, so if I found one like that I'd give them feedback and probably wouldn't go again. But some festivals are aimed more at listeners and they want to put on as many concerts as possible.

Sometimes the music is organised by the pub landlord who hopes to bring in the festival crowd, rather than the festival itself.

There are still hundreds of festivals all over the country, big and small, cheap or expensive, and they all provide something different. It should be possible to find one with the right balance to suit everyone.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: ripov
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:07 PM

I'm not sure how meeting a few musicians that you may or may not know and playing a few tunes with them in a pub or open space, as most of us do every week, whether at a festival or not, you want to class as "freeloading". And it's not the lack of "anything" thats the problem, its the fact that, more and more, at some festivals the organisers seem to fill every "music friendly" pub with an amplified band, so musicians have nowhere to play (nor indeed is there anywhere to go for punters who want to sit and talk over their beers).
Perhaps you (session man) could say whether you're involved as an individual organising a small festival for the love of it, or work for some commercial outfit doing it for the money. If a festival is organised on a commercial basis I don't see that we owe it anything. If the organisers want to pay us (in free tickets if that's the way it's done) that's another matter, but that's nothing to do with the "folk process".

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:07 AM

Someelf put a <em> at the end of that first paragraph, please.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:50 AM

When talking about fringe events, are the above people festival ticket holders or just 'freebies' looking for a free weekend and hanging on the coat tails of the event. Festivals cost a lot of money to organise and run. I know the 'fringe' can be important in some events, but I would be interested to know who you are. If you haven't paid for a ticket you have no right to moan about not having anywhere to play/sing, or what happens during the festival.

I've never been to a festival without paying to go to things, but I wouldn't consider going to a festival that didn't offer me a space to play with other folks. Do you have a problem with that?

In the case of the Woodbridge festival, they could have saved some money by not hiring that godawful pub band and by letting the visiting musicians do their thing in the same space. And most "open mike" events need a hired PA - save money, a session/singaround doesn't need it.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: GUEST,Session Man
Date: 25 May 11 - 07:08 AM

Hi Marje and everyone
Just the type of responses I expected. As I made sweeping generalisations with my previous response it did create some feedback. Many thanks for all your comments. All I can ask is that those that do 'freeload' these festivals please stop moaning about the lack of anything. Those who do support the events, and I know that is the greater percentage, please help the organisers by volunteering to run a session, singaround or whatever to take some of the workload from them. I'm sure they would be only to pleased with offers of help. And when you do organise a 'fringe' event and you know there are 'freeloaders' around, always have a charity box with you (the pubs all have them on the counters) and hand round as a 'collection' for non ticket holders etc (just a thought).
Enjoy the festival season everyone, sing and play wherever you are and don't forget, if you do have gripes at a festival this year, please turn them into positive improvements for next year. You can do this.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 May 11 - 07:01 AM

Looking at the Middlewich schedule, the Fringe in particular:

http://www.midfest.org/

I see lunchtime/afternoon sessions at several venues and one venue having a session/singaround in the evening. Is there a demand for more than that? It's quite small, isn't it? (I've never been and am not likely to, since accommodation seems to be nonexistent and public transport not much better).

I was at the Woodbridge festival (now deceased, I think) a few years ago, and that one did have the problem the OP describes: the only suitable pubs were either monopolized by a handful of elderly alcoholics watching Sky Sport or else had a plugged-in Fields of Athenry band nobody was listening to. Fortunately the weather was good and some open-air sessions were possible (on a barge and in a beer garden). You can't count on that though.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:10 AM

If I went away to a festival with tickets for individual concerts, I'd probably attend a couple (most likely smaller acts) over a weekend but that's as far as I'd go. With Cromer, as it's only down the road, I just go into town for the times sessions are scheduled.

Subject: RE: How many wandering musicians/singers can
From: Marje
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:48 AM

Session man: I can't apeak for the other posters above, but I generally buy a full ticket for the festivals I'm referring to. That still leaves me time to seek out participatory sessions in the gaps between concerts and workshops, or when I don't particularly want to fill my day with paid-for events. The festival organisers do get my money, and I appreciate it when they take the trouble (as some do) to make sure there is space and time allocated for sessions, possibly even with a professsional musician or two to lead them.

There are people who go to festivals only to attend concerts and to listen passively to whatever else is going on. There are others who only want open sessions and want to pay for as little as possible (and yes, some of them are perhaps freeloading, enjoying the benefits of the presence of musicians would would not be there without the fomal, high-profile conerts etc). But there are also many - perhaps the majority - who pay for their tickets and would like to attend a mixture of formal events and informal sessions. It's not an unreasonable expectation.

Marje