What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?

Subject: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voic
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:15 AM

Can anyone tell me exactly what the instruction "Sing in your own voice" means? I think it means to not imitate someone else's singing style, but some posters seem to think it means something related to not singing in an assumed accent. Anyone want to give their opinions? Note: One of my favourite songs is "Rum and Coca-Cola", and when I sing it to myself, I use a slight accent i.e., pronouncing "Coca-Cola" as "Coco-Cola", as I believe it keeps the rhythm. But in my opinion, the Andrews Sisters were overdoing it in their performance.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voic
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:07 AM

And also, do particular races have particular kinds of voices? In some discussions of Elvis, for example, music critics say he sounded Black. Is there a definition of terms like this? How can you tell if someone "sounds Black" or "sounds White?"

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: glueman
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:48 AM

A BBC Radio 3 prog yesterday with a classically trained white middle class singer who'd decided to record black spirituals. 'And de walls came-a tumbling down' in perfect RP just sounds stupid.

I don't mind folk tunes being given a classical treatment by Ferrier or Piers or whoever but spirituals and slave songs in Oxford accents with the addition of Dis n' Dat is fundamentally misplaced.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:48 AM

I think not just accent or style but also whatever your natural speaking voice would be. mg

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 03:25 AM

Well, glueman, technically spirituals and slave songs are folk songs.
Does anyone else want to give their opinion on what "Sing in your own voice" means?

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 03:30 AM

Another point about Lord Invader's songs: it is nearly impossible for me to sing any of his songs without pronouncing the words as he does. Of course, I try not to overdo it.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: glueman
Date: 21 May 11 - 03:41 AM

If depends on your definition of folk songs of course, but if the source of the idiom is particular to a cultural group, especially a disenfranchised one, good taste dictates one should not mimic the speech patterns, or perceived speech patterns of that group.

I accept there are no easy answers but I've always struggled with The English Folk Voice as a universal aural meme and 'negro spirituals' by posh white folks is an extreme version of that dilemma. Some folk forms translate more readily than others into the lingua franca and their mutability or resistance depends on a variety of conditions.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:03 AM

glueman, in my case I am of Chinese ethnicity, and the singer/composer I mentioned was of Afro-Caribbean ethnicity. I have a good ear for accents. I think your opinion also applies if the person can reasonably sing their repertoire in their own accent without doing some kind of disservice to the song.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:18 AM

Morwen ~~ There was a lot about this, in an exchange at end of Jan 10 between Backwoodsman, Jim Carroll, some others & me, in a thread called Songs You Shouldn't Sing In A UK Folk Club, which I have refreshed as you might find some posts relevant to your question here around there.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: glueman
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:18 AM

Like I said, it's complicated. For instance the BBC is numerically over-represented with Scottish radio and TV presenters. This is largely due to the perception that the Scottish accent is 'class-less'. It isn't of course but is more acceptable to the English ear than differing regional English, hence Shaw's quote about an Englishman only needing to open his mouth to make other Englishmen despise him. Whether this is institutional racism against the Scots or positive discrimination on their behalf is difficult to say.

Some people can get away with singing in different voices better than others. If your Trinidadian is impeccable you might pull it off because you're removed from problematic historical debate, being ethnically Chinese, but if you get it wrong you might be seen as an amusing novelty, like Margarita Pracatan the Cuban who featured on the Clive James show. That might be a highly employable novelty, but not in control of the way you are popularly perceived.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:21 AM

Classically trained singers sing using lots of vibrato, exaggerated diction etc. As I understand it they are seeking to produce a 'pure' musical sound - which takes a lot of arduous training to get right. In producing this particular sound these singers tend to move quite a long way from their natural speaking voices. Such singing is highly stylised and, hence, not to everyone's taste. Nevertheless, it is extremely skilful and can be very impressive in the context of a live concert (I will never forget hearing Cecelia Bartoli sing in the Albert Hall - spine-tingling stuff!).

Pop and Rock singers, on the other hand, are often concerned with producing a 'unique' sound which distinguishes them from an army of competitors. I caught a snatch of Elton John the other night on the TV - and I couldn't help noticing that he sings in a high, slightly 'strangled' way whilst adopting a peculiar mid-Atlantic accent. There are lots of other examples - but my Pop references are very out of date!

In contrast to these examples many traditional singers have singing voices which are very like their speaking voices - think of the Norfolk singers, Harry Cox and Sam Larner, for example. They were both old, East Anglian countrymen and when singing they were not trying to produce a stylised or unique sound - they sounded like themselves.

On the other hand there does appear to be a stylised, post-War Revival 'folk voice' - especially among male English singers - a rather nasal sound which is instantly recognisable.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: BobKnight
Date: 21 May 11 - 05:28 AM

For me it means singing in your, "at home" voice. The voice or accent you use with your family. Here in Scotland most of us can speak a reasonable facsimile of "Queen's English," but that may not be what we sound like when "at home."

Sometimes when writing a song the language I use is more archaic, of the type used by my father, or grandparents. Unfortunately, the Scots are rapidly losing tha ability to speak Scots. The influence of a restrictive education system that enforced, "speaking properly" for the last two hundred years, and the saturation level influence of TV, and films, has all but put paid that. However, there are some heartening sign that all may not be lost.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,Semiotic
Date: 21 May 11 - 07:36 AM

As a white, middle-class, male brought up in the suburbs of SW London; singing Brigg Fair, The Four Loom Weaver of The banks of Sweet Primroses in my usual speaking voice just sounded ridiculous. However trying to imitate a regional accent was just as bad hence the 'folk revival voice'; silly but inevitable in the days of mass communication I suppose Sam Larner, Phil Tanner and the like had less of a problem with that!

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 May 11 - 07:57 AM

One of things ever said about me that I most value was this from a review of a folk evening I did at the Eye Theatre in Suffolk:

"An unpretentious performer, he can talk to the audience in very middle class tones and then, without putting on the folk voice, can still go right into the spirit of a song."
                Basil Abbott - Norfolk & Suffolk Express 14 Feb 1992

This doesn't mean I never try to use an appropriate accent ~~ I happen to be quite good at accents, & regard a song as a performance [I have also done a lot of acting & won cup for best actor at Sawston, Cambs, Drama Festival 1977]. But I do try to avoid the affected nasality &/or ubiquitous Mummerset sometimes thought appropriate, & will only use accent if song seems to me to call for it. Like so much, these things are matters of individual judgment & obviously YMMV in any given instance.

See, for further development of these points, the thread I refreshed refd in my entry 5 posts back.

~M~

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:03 AM

NEVER EVER give it a thought. Sing it as best you can. If people can't respect that - screw 'em! They aren't deserving of respect back. They won't understand this, because they are conformists tamely doing what some berk tells them is 'in the tradition'.

They would never have the spontanaeity or originality of thought to be inspired by someone as marginalised as Lord Invader.

Go for it! And in a few years - months even, maybe you will be blowing their balls off, headlining everywhere. I hope so. Good luck and Godspeed MW!

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: stallion
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:47 AM

ooo Alan that is a bit venomous. About finding your own voice is about putting yoorself into the song, I a agree with big Al on somethings but I do have pet hates, like people singing in a different accent other than the one they converse in, unless that is, the point is to preserve something of the place and spirit where the piece was written and the lifestyle depicted therein and deliver that in a performance. I suppose it's the plethora of people getting up to sing pop sings in some pseudo american accent, what is the point. Having said all that we sing "shanties" at a pace that people would find difficult to work at, we are not singing them to be worked to, it is to enjoy and people to join in with. People do preserve them and use them for what they are intended for and I applaud them for it and also enjoy it as for most of the traditional, revival and contemporary stuff about.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:07 AM

Look! the guys trying to do something different. As Adrian Henri said about human ears fried in batter - there is room for innovation in the trade. Leave him alone, encourage him - he could come up with something none of us have ever thought of.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: meself
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:34 AM

This topic comes up for discussion periodically, and I can sum up the responses for you:

1) Never sing in anything but the voice and accent that are natural and native to you;

2) Always affect whatever voice and accent you think fit a song;

3) (to be read in the voice and accent of a certain previous poster:) Do whatever it takes to be successful in the music racket.

No end of reasonable and not-so-reasonable arguments have been presented in support of these views, so if you're like most people, you'll choose the arguments in favour of what you're inclined to do anyway ....

FWIW, in my opinion, this world could use a few more Chinese-Australian Calypsonians!

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:43 AM

Music is not a racket. success is very subjective. It is good to be able to say - in the final reckoning, i gave it my best shot. It feels like a sort of success. hard to imagine a better kind

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: meself
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:49 AM

Quite so, and well said.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:18 AM

Which "guy", Al? If you mean Morwen, she's a girl.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: meself
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:25 AM

Btw, Al - Sorry for misrepresenting your point-of-view; I was being flippant, of course, but no offence intended.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:26 AM

On the other hand there does appear to be a stylised, post-War Revival 'folk voice' - especially among male English singers - a rather nasal sound which is instantly recognisable."
but even if a singer breathes through his nose, it may be by accident.
Secondly the nasal singers being referred to all differ from one another, outside of the common factor that they are breathing in through their nose, they are individually recognisable.
Shimrod you are breathing hot air, your statement is as ridiculous as saying that peter pears and count mcormick sound the same because they are not breathing through their nose, they do not sound the same and both are instantly recognisable.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:31 AM

in other words, just because someone has a nasal voice as a result of breathing in through their nose, rather than their mouth, it does not mean they are not singing in their own voice ,they are, but they are obtaining a nasal sound, a result of their breathing, but .....they are still using their own voice.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:46 AM

In spite of your comments, GSS, I still believe that there is a, largely male, post-War Revival folk voice which tends to have a nasal quality to it. I've not hit some sort of nerve here have I, GSS? You don't sing like that, do you? I don't think I've heard you ... or any of your alter-egos (!)

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:31 PM

Shimrod,if you make ridiculous statements you must expect to be ridiculed.
Mike Waterson does not sound like peter bellamy or louis killen. all of them fine singers, but who periodically breathe through their nose producing an occasinal nasal sound, in my opinion they are far superior to peter pears when it comes to folk songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_PoPY-mDpA

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_PoPY-mDpA that is me, Shimrod.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: michaelr
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:25 PM

"Sing in your own voice" is essentially meaningless (unless you're subject to that whole class/accent nonsense in England).

When I sing trad folk, my voice sounds in a way that's (I hope) appropriate to that style of music. When I sing rock&roll, it sounds different; bluegrass or old-time, different again. But in each case it is my own voice. You sing to suit the material.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:36 PM

Morwen, I suspect that you are going to have to discover your own idiom for singing Calypso, for yourself. Just take your time, listen to your sources a lot, and sing the songs that you love a lot.

As far as discovering or indeed cultivating your own voice is concerned, my personal feeling is that the key may lie in not attempting to consciously 'imitate' your sources, but to simply immerse yourself in them.

If I sing a song with a great deal of Scots dialect, I do not attempt a Scottish accent, but I will 'trim' the dialect to a degree so as to make it fit my diction without making the song sounding silly. I don't recommend that you do this necessarily, as I think you're going to have to learn your own way of navigating the meeting point between these songs (including how they are traditionally sung) and your own accent and singing voice.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: Bert
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:49 PM

When I have used the term, it is to avoid that awful falsetto Dylanesque whine that so many performers put on.

As for not putting on an accent it is virtually impossible when you sing some songs. What would everyone sing on New Years Eve if it weren't for Auld Lang Syne?

And people from some remote parts of England wouldn't be able to sing anything that didn't originate within a few miles from where they grew up.

Now, let's all sing Manurah Manyah!

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: GUEST,semiotic
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:56 PM

Or of course one could follow the tradition and alter the words to fit your own accent. The tradition, if it is to live, is surely a living, changing, and evolving thing.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:01 PM

or, one can follow in the footsteps of Guthrie and Eliot and Dylan, and just invent a voice to sing in. The important thing i sincerity...once you learn to fake that, you've got it made.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice'
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:22 PM

A few observations...

Shimrod wrote:
"...there does appear to be a stylised, post-War Revival 'folk voice' - especially among male English singers - a rather nasal sound which is instantly recognisable."

A year or so ago I interviewed Will Noble for 'The Living Tradition' mag. In response to what I admit was a slightly leading question about the way someone like Will - who learned songs at local hunt suppers, and always sings in his natural Yorkshire accent - thought about the singing style he heard when he got involved with folk festivals and so forth, he replied: "It didn't bother me but, well, I did feel that a lot of the singers I heard at the festivals and clubs sang in a 'different' way, shall we say! It's hard to define it exactly, maybe a more nasal way of singing? Where did that style come from? Had people heard recordings of older singers and taken it from there? I suppose people were trying to get back to a way of life that they thought was around when this singing was going on."

There was a very definite 'folkie' style of singing around in the 1970s that had nothing much to do with the way most of the old traditional singers had sung. In those interviews with Martin Carthy that are everywhere at the moment, he more or less disowns what he admits was a very mannered singing style in the 70s. Nic Jones had a very nasal style for his first two records, before becoming much more natural for 'The Noah's Ark Trap'. Peteer Bellamy was a role model for the 'folkie voice' as well. It was certainly the standard way of performing traditional songs at folk club level, when I first started getting interested.

My old mentor Harry Boardman's motto was "Sing in your own voice". By that he meant something approaching the singer's speaking voice - although funnily enough when he sang Irish songs, Harry would adopt a fake accent, which led to some spirited discussions. I seem to remember that Ewan MacColl (who's own dictum about 'singing songs from your own place' has been much discussed here) sang in an exaggerated Scots accent for material from North of the border, adopted more of a Mancunian accent for 'The Manchester Rambler' and leaned towards a yokel accent for 'The Foggy Dew'. But of course, this was an actor playing a part.

Semiotic said:
"...singing Brigg Fair, The Four Loom Weaver of The banks of Sweet Primroses in my usual speaking voice just sounded ridiculous"

But those three songs are very different beasts. 'Four Loom Weaver' is in Lancashire dialect, which can cause problems even for modern-day Lancastrians. You could translate it into standard English, but then the poetry gets mucked up. 'Brigg Fair' contains nothing apart from the name of the town (and possibly a memory of Joseph Taylor's highly stylised rendition) to demand performance in a Lincolnshire accent, and 'Sweet Primroses' is an English broadside ballad with no specific location.

I once got hired to coach young actor / singers to perform broadside ballads in an authentically Victorian style, for a stage play. All of them, on breaking into song, immediately dropped their Mancunian accents in favour of the kind of American accent that is the norm for most popular music these days. It was quite a job to get them to speak the lines first, then sing them in the same voice.

Two of the most distinctive vocal stylists around the folk music scene right now are Tim Eriksen and Sam Lee. You couldn't hear Tim and mistake him for anyone else. But he only sings like he does because he's listened a lot to Roscoe Holcombe and Lee Monroe Presnell alongside plenty of confrontational rock music. Likewise Sam Lee with his enthusiasm for English gypsy style. All of us are influenced by the music that's been around us all our lives, but we can also choose to modify those influences by choosing to listen to non-mainstream singing styles, and push ourselves in a less 'vanilla' direction.

On the other hand, if you accept Steve Gardham and Steve Roud's ideas about the commercial origins of much traditional repertoire, e.g. in ballad operas and for the pleasure gardens, you have to accept that many of the songs were most probably sung originally in voices that were more formally-trained than those of the Sam Larners and Phil Tanners that carried them into the twentieth century. There's no high principle to decree that singing traditional songs in a 'pop' or any other kind of voice, is actually wrong. It's just a matter of taste.

All of which goes to show whatever you choose to make of it.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:23 PM

It's very hard to li9terally sing in your own voice i.e traditional Irish lyrics by the way they're written just tend to make a non Iris voice sound Irish, similarily Country lyrics and many pop lyrics tend to sound American, trad English more an English accent. The only literally 'own voice' singers I hear are those to sing in dialect such as Black Country, Liverpool, Geordie and the like. But I've always taken the term to mean do it your own way, not just copy the sound as is done in Karaoke. Use the lyrics as a frame work and put yourself into your interpretation

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 May 11 - 03:33 PM

There isn't actually such a thing as a voice.

Singing is done by moving muscles and other tissues of the body. We can sing different ways at different times. If we had been born to different cultures, our habits might be different, and our singing would be different. At the same time, we could learn to throw off the habits of our culture and sing differently if we wanted to.

Remember the Yeats poem that ended

   How can we tell the dancer from the dance?

Just as there is no such thing as 'a dance' (there is only a dancer moving) there is no such thing as 'a voice.' (There is only a person singing.)

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:50 PM

There are people who m;ake a living doing Elvis and John Denver impersonations. There you have to imitate precisely, and you will be a very good impersonator. You can give a nod to the original accent and keep the words but still sing them in your own accent. I have no problem singing Auld Lang Syne and I do sing dis and dat in some songs, but that also how much of America (oh do I have to do this again explain what America is..OK..All of North America, South America, Central America, Greenland, protectorates, islands, anyone who feels American in their heart and believes in its ideals, however poorly executed, and then excluding anyone who hates being called American because they don't like George Bush or think we are imperialistic or use too much of the world's resources or would prefer really to be called Guatamalan or Chilean) talked and still talks. mg

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:56 PM

Shimrod, where art thou, there is no such thing as a voice, there is also such as a thing as breathing and if you breathe through the mouth it sounds different from breathing through your nose.
I condemn you to hell,Shimrod, hell is the musical equivalent of listening to peter pears muredring waly waly.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 11 - 05:28 PM

dear, shimrod,
the crux of the matter is this, traditional singers such as Harry Cox, sang naturally, singing naturally,involves singing while breathing through both mouth and nose., because they are unaware that they are not singing in a particular way, they are just singing
trained singers are taught to breathe through the mouth whilst singing.
revival singers that you are so keen to criticise are following in the tradition of singers such as harry cox, and singing naturally, in other words they are singing without thinking whether they are breathing through one specific orifice, be it mouth or nose or any other hole.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 06:50 PM

Lively- it is as simple as this. I said above "I have a very good ear for accents". Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. What I am actually doing is pronouncing the words with Trinidadian inflections. "We don't speak like that." Lord Invader, himself, is said to have said these words after listening to the Andrews Sisters' version of R&CC. They put on "Trinidadian" accents. But didn't really. More like "generic West Indian/Caribbean accent".

If you listen to a recording on YouTube of Joan Baez singing "Man Smart, Woman Smarter"- I highly doubt anyone else in this forum would criticise her- she sings in her own voice, but adopts slight accent. "Smarter than de man, in every way". How does everyone else feel this fits into "Sing in your own voice"? BTW thanks to meself for suggesting that the world needs more Chinese-Australian calypsonians! Part of my motivation for asking this question was related to a comment on the "A very uncomfortable question- performing other trads" thread and to mention of this threads about accent and dialect.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 07:04 PM

Here is the Joan Baez recording I meant.
Joan Baez- Man Smart, Woman Smarter (Norman Span)

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:00 PM

And what about "Day Dah Light (the Banana Boat Song) which uses a lot of dialect? I think I'd keep the dialect, for example, "Come Missa Tallyman, tally mi banana", but pronounce it so that I sounded Australian with a distinct Jamaican inflection. It is very hard to sing a song written in Jamaican patois without adopting the inflections.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:13 PM

Just do it. Breathe through any orifice which suits you. have fun. You cannot afford to worry about what other people think. There will always be people who put you down. That's what you get for sticking your head above the parapet - you get shot at. It goes with the territory. Some of the criticism will be unfair; some will be thoughtful, kindly and constructive - but basically its all a pain in the bum - and should not stop you from singing and taking a good swing at what you fancy.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 May 11 - 12:32 AM

Right! And the more you do it, the better you get.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 May 11 - 03:52 AM

Anyone have comments on the Joan Baez recording?

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:26 AM

GSS, I think that you are being a bit too prickly about my comments - it is, after all, merely a matter of taste.

There is much food for thought in Brian Peters's response - it is, in my opinion, almost the definitive answer to the question.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: stallion
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:26 AM

just tried singing mountain dew concentrating on the yorkshire accent and it does work, even with the phrasing which is rooted in Irish/english. hold my hands up, it does sound different than I would normaly, without thinking, sing it. Having said that I only get to sing it when i give the audience a choice to choose English, Scottish or Irish, they invariably choose Irish, then I give 'em a choice of happy or miserable - they choose happy, I then tell them i only know one happy Irish song, take the laugh and sing mountain dew, but that rarely happens these days cos I am rarely on my own, don't do it with 2BS&S. Oh I forgot, for it to work you have to set the audience up by letting them know you know a lot of Irish songs.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:36 AM

Hi Morwen, like I said before, I wouldn't recommend that you do what you're trying to do in any way - other than the way that you find it works for you.
When I said immerse yourself in the music rather than consciously mimicking performers, I was aiming at avoiding making your singing sound like a tacky racial pastiche. And in fact I believe, from the what you say, that this is what you would wish to avoid.

"And what about "Day Dah Light (the Banana Boat Song) which uses a lot of dialect? I think I'd keep the dialect, for example, "Come Missa Tallyman, tally mi banana", but pronounce it so that I sounded Australian with a distinct Jamaican inflection. It is very hard to sing a song written in Jamaican patois without adopting the inflections."

Sounds to me like you have worked out how to make it work for you..
I like your argument for the Baez performance btw.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:41 AM

Thanks for clarifying, lively.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:45 AM

And yes, that is what I want to avoid.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:59 AM

"in ballad operas and for the pleasure gardens, you have to accept that many of the songs were most probably sung originally in voices that were more formally-trained than those of the Sam Larners and Phil Tanners that carried them into the twentieth century. There's no high principle to decree that singing traditional songs in a 'pop' or any other kind of voice, is actually wrong. It's just a matter of taste".
no no no,it is more than that it is inappropriate, for example jazz singers sing in certain styles, if peter pears sang in his classical style, a jazz song it is inappropriate, his singing of waly waly is inappropriate.   Sam Larner singing[ IN A NATURAL STYLE THAT INVOLVES BREATHING THROUGH THE MOUTH AND THE NOSE]is appropriate.
likewise HARRY COX singing opera in his natural style is inappropriate.
if classical style singers can have defined styles for singing opera,then folk /traditional music singers, and jazz singers have defined styles too.
to sing like peter pears as he murders waly waly, is not just a matter of taste it is inappropriate, in the same way if walter pardon had sung opera, in his natural partly nasal style it would be inappropriate., or if lous armstrong had sung opera in his style it would be inappropriate.
within all genres of music there are accepted styles, the boundaries of these styles can be and sometimes are explored and increased.
but no non no, peter pears singing waly waly is INAPPROPRIATE IN THE SAME WAY WALTER PARDONS STYLE IS INAPPROPRIATE for opera. ITS NOT JUST A MATTER OF TASTE IT IS INAPPROPRIATE

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:51 AM

We live in an inappropriate age - GSS.

'Weigh it but with the grossness of this age' as Shakespeare said. I remember telling Ian Campbell, that a reggae group full of brummie white kids was a crap idea, and his kids made a real go of UB40.

Guest lively and GSS - if I've learned anything from that, its not to stifle or naysay true creative endeavour.

Like i say Morwen - just go for it. joan baez taught and popularised Childe ballads and other folk music to more people than anyone I've heard named or testifying on this forum. We all owe her a terrific debt.

Just do it, that's what you want to do. Its a humble and decent ambition. You have right to do it. Its not like you want to be a serial killer.
furthermore, doing it will take you to another place. You will navigate for yourself from there.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: Musket
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:03 AM

Yo Glueman.

With you mate.

My better half has a CD of Andreas Scholl singing English folk songs, many credited as Vaughan Williams compositions. His voice is precise, somewhere between RP and his German gutteral accent and of course pitch perfect.

Fully stripped of any soul, meaning or echo of entertainment. A pity because have him singing an aria in German or Italian and it seems so natural.

Verdict? Horse for courses.

Of course, Ewan McColl used to encourage people to sing in their own voice and then sing in a strange accent somewhere between Salford and the Highlands. Second only to Russ Abbot in false Scottish... Mind you, he was a hero of mine, even if he did once have a pop at me after listening to my set, saying a song I sung wasn't indigenous to me. Perhaps I shouldn't have sung it in my own voice after all?

Brian Peters says above that this was because McColl was in character, an actor of sorts. yes, I could go with that if he didn't preach all the time to others about singing about your own heritage.   

So, sing in your own voice? Sing in some bugger else's voice? Do what the hell you want. If they clap, you got it right. If they boo, revise your stance.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: alanabit
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:12 AM

Oddly enough, I could not stand the sound of my mother's singing. This had nothing to do with the quality of her voice, nor with her ability to sing in metre and in tune, both of which were unimpeachable. It was the fact that she always adopted a "head girl", snobby sort of accent when she sang. This made me cringe to my toenails. She was an honest and decent woman, who normally spoke a clear variant of Southern English, which was impossible to localise. Her adoption of a class accent - on the the ludicrous assumption that those people were her betters - used to simultaneously repel and embarrass me. I can take on most of what has been written on this thread, but I did want to give an example of how getting it wrong can really annoy people. (I think UB40 sound just fine, by the way...)

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:16 AM

Ewan wasn't just 'an actor of sorts', Ian: he was an experienced and distinguished actor & playwright with Red Megaphones, Theatre Workshop, &c, & married to T Workshop director Joan Littlewood. Other folksingers/professional·actors were Theo Bikel & some of the Clancys.
Bikel in particular was a master of accents. & don't knock Ewan's Scots accent; he grew up in Salford, but his father came from Stirling & his mother from Auchterarder & theirs was the accent spoken in his home. His Scottish sounded a lot more convincing than Jeannie Robertson's often did after Hamish Henderson got at her.

~M~

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:20 AM

"ITS NOT JUST A MATTER OF TASTE IT IS INAPPROPRIATE"

Inappropriate is a value judgement, Dick. I don't particularly like Peter Pears' renditions of folk songs either. But the versions by Sam Larner et al of songs that had been the popular music of 150 years before, represent only a snapshot of the history of the way those songs have been sung over many generations. And although I love listening to those renditions, much prefer them to certain other ways of singing the same material, and have my own ideas about how I like to perform traditional songs in 2011, if pressed on the point of principle I'd say that 'Voice of the People' style performances are no more definitive than '18th century theatrical', 'Cecil Sharpian', '1970s folkie', 'folk-rock', 'psych-folk' or whatever-the-hell-you-like alternative ways of singing old songs.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:46 AM

My better half has a CD of Andreas Scholl singing English folk songs, many credited as Vaughan Williams compositions.

Me too - Wayfaring Stranger: the one with the lovely folksy Magic Roundabout digipak cover (see HERE) - although there's a new edition with a very different cover. I love it very dearly - just as I love Davie Stewart, Cox, Larner, Tanner et al; Bellamy (of course) and The Unthanks, Jack Langstaff, John Jacob Niles, Jim Eldon - all of whom are defined by their own unique (subjective) voices in the context of a broader cultural (objective) context, as are we all, whatever our personal influences & inspirations.

Singing in your own voice? I don't think we have much of a choice really. "My tongue is my own," True Thomas said.... Voices are amazing things; like our eyes, ears, noses, genitals, lungs; but the collectivity of our humanity is defined by our individuality, without which there's nothing at all...

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: glueman
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:56 AM

A better guide might be, would you adopt an accent if you were singing in that region? Americans frequently have a stab at what they think is an English accent (usually cockney) and most are toe-curling Dick Van Dyke affairs. Basically, why bother? If the material is strong enough it'll carry your own voice and if it's heavily inflected, should you be attempting to sing it anywhere if you wouldn't on its home terrain?

As for the universal folk revival voice, it undoubtedly exists but I suspect singers are more aware of avoiding its perils than they once were. Peter Bellamy took the idiom to such a mannerist extreme that it became almost a trademark. Anyone who follows will have to negotiate PB's interpretation.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: glueman
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:59 AM

In another example of synchronicity I've just been listening to Wayfaring Stranger in a Sacred Harp recording.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:42 AM

"ITS NOT JUST A MATTER OF TASTE IT IS INAPPROPRIATE"

Inappropriate is a value judgement, Dick. I don't particularly like Peter Pears' renditions of folk songs either. But the versions by Sam Larner et al of songs that had been the popular music of 150 years before, represent only a snapshot of the history of the way those songs have been sung over many generations. And although I love listening to those renditions, much prefer them to certain other ways of singing the same material, and have my own ideas about how I like to perform traditional songs in 2011, if pressed on the point of principle I'd say that 'Voice of the People' style performances are no more definitive than '18th century theatrical', 'Cecil Sharpian', '1970s folkie', 'folk-rock', 'psych-folk' or whatever-the-hell-you-like alternative ways of singing old songs.
NO, here is the argument why that is incorrect, classical singers have defintion of how opera should be sung[ that may be their value judgement] but that is how classical singing for opera is taught, the singers are taught a technique for breathing through the mouth, and for using vibrato.
Traditional singers who learned their songs by a certain process , sang their songs in a natural way , [that is, they were not trained to breathe through their mouth whilst singing] this is not a value judgement but a fact, so to continue the style in an authentic manner, singers of traditional songs[whether they are revival or traditional have just sung the songs in a natural manner, that is breathing naturally though both nose and mouth, not consciously avoiding singing through the nose]THEY ALSO GENERALY AVOIDED VIBRATO BECAUSE IT WAS NOT NECESSARY, because they were not singing in large rooms that required the use of heavy vibrato.,
These days OF COURSE WE HAVE AMPLIFICATION TO AMPLIFY SOUND.
If Opera singers and jazz singers define how their material should be sung, and they do
OPERA SINGERS ARE TAUGHT TO SING IN A CERTAIN WAY
why cannot singers of traditional songs define that their is an appropriate way to sing traditional songs, and that is the way they have always been sung by traditional singers, the natural way [which to some extent employs a nasal voice[ nasal voice is defined by someone breathing through their nose while singing].
do you or do you not agree? that it would be inappropriate to sing opera in the style of walter pardon or louis armstrong?
please answer
LOGICALLY
if opera singers are taught to sing in a certain way[which they are,] why should they be a musical exception, there are authentic ways to sing opera, their are authentic way to sing traditional songs[ not in the operatic style of peter pears]his style is inappropriate and not authentic.
neither is it correct according to classical singers to sing opera in the style[that partly uses a nasal breathing] of Dick Miles, BrianPeters, loiusa killen, walter pardon sam larner, martin carthy, or anyone else that has been influenced by traditional singers and sings in a natural way rather than a trained way.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: glueman
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:54 AM

"their are authentic way to sing traditional songs"

Not sure about that. An elegant tenor would adopt a different approach to the material than a bass surely?

Thomas Hardy talks about a character singing like 'a bee in a flue' (in Return of the Native IIRC) so it's safe to assume certain modes of presentation were cliched 150 years ago. One of the more resistant factors about folk music becoming more widespread could be the mannered approach in which it is sung. I'd have thought any voice that can hold a room unaccompanied and without amplification is a potential folk voice, not the accent or mannerisms.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 11 - 09:10 AM

glueman the authentic way[ that is the way all traditional singers that i have heard[ sam larner harry cox sara makem,fred jordan,ron copper] is to sing them in a natural manner, a natural way to sing is to use both mouth and nose for breathing., it has nothing to do with mannerisms.
trained singers are trained to breathe through their mouth only. by the way those people that would have heard me sing would generally agree that i can hold a room unaccompanied, i have a fairly powerful voice because i sing using my diaphragm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUoZkOw02uE

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: Musket
Date: 22 May 11 - 09:24 AM

MtheGM - I know he was a playwright and actor, and of course his first life with Joan Littlewood. I put on a production of Landscape with Chimneys many years ago...

My comments were purely about singing with your own voice and his stance of authenticity bound to heritage. If I had to be nasty, and I am not starting a Ewan McColl slagging contest here... it is as if he has the right to pretend on stage but others don't. That certainly is the view of the many who were put down by him. And all we ever did was try to entertain?

In our own voice, of course!

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 May 11 - 09:37 AM

Well, Ian; we all had our Ewan recollections. He was always quite civil to me, but treated a friend of mine very ill. The story is somewhere on one of the Ewan threads, and not really relevant here so I just mention it in passing.

I would still defend his Scottish singing, which I think has often been unfairly animadverted against ~~ see my last post. But I certainly have no brief for his gross over-prescriptiveness re authenticity, which has been disputed on other threads as attributable to him, but which I recollect perfectly from Ballads & Blues days.

~M~

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:56 PM

I would certainly sing Jamaican songs in Jamaica, with the appropriate dialect :).

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: muppett
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:02 AM

Once a song is performed in public, Surely it becomes public property, open to anyone to sing it regardless of their accent or dialect. Just because someone like Bob Dylan sings his songs in a distinct accent doesn't mean every bu*er else has to, what's happend to individuality.

Through my day job as a community worker, I've been working with a group of Male Pensioners who are from Pakistan, but have lived in Bradford for over 40 years. In one of the sessions I recently had with them, we got talking about singing and I got one of them to sing one of his favorite songs, it was the John Denver song, 'Country Road' and he sang it in his own accent which was a mixture of Bradfordian and Pakistani, it certainly added character t' song.

What realy gets on my t*ts though is when folk do an introduction to a song in their own accent or dialect, then go off in a phoney Irish, American or other accent that isn't there own. Yep OK some songs do sound better if done in a particular accent, but lets not get uptight about it and say that it shouldn't be allowed, songs are to be sung by all, so let's embrace this and sing them naturally.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:04 AM

YES, AND NOT WITH A CARROT UP THE ARESE,like peter pears.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:07 AM

'What realy gets on my t*ts though is when folk do an introduction to a song in their own accent or dialect, then go off in a phoney Irish, American or other accent that isn't there own.'

Find it in your heart to be tolerant. Its easier on the nipples.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:07 AM

Sorry that was me

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:15 AM

Muppett, what would you think of someone singing "Day-O" using the traditional Jamaican dialect and lyrics. "Mi come ya fi wuk, mi no come ya fi igle". I think the traditional version is best done in dialect, while the popular Belafonte/Burgie version can be done in any accent possible.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: muppett
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:28 AM

Aye maybe, and Traditional American Folk songs can be said to sound better sung with American accents where as Geordy songs sound strange sung in American accents.

But my point is Songs are to sung by all in what ever accent / dialect.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:28 AM

Morwen - can't say this often enough. What we think doesn't matter. Some people will like your singing, some won't. That's what this business is like. there really is no right and wrong - no absolutes.

Do what YOU feel good with. If someone suggests a change listen - but not too soon. Make sure you have fulfilled YOUR vision, and you won't find that til you've done it more than a few times.

When you have done what YOU want. then the critics get second dibs at helping you. Don't let them piss on your chips before you start eating.

Whatever anybody else says - they won't care as much as you obviously do. Steer by your own lights initially.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 May 11 - 10:05 AM

When I sing, eg, "Banks of the Sweet Primroses" I do it in my "normal speaking accent" which, over the years, has become quite neutral (though some people can hear a northern twang in it still) as a result of living in the South of England, Norway and France and working a lot in Africa, the Middle East and Far East.

However, when I sing "Ilkla Moor Baht 'At" I revert to the West Riding accent I was brought up speaking, and lay it on even more thickly than I would have done at the time.

And I'm afraid I just *cringe* when I hear "The Dalesman's Litany/ Lament" sung here in the south east with the Hs pronounced in "Hull and Halifax and Hell". It just HAS to be " 'Ull and 'Alifax and 'Ell", for me:-)

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: muppett
Date: 23 May 11 - 10:17 AM

Re. Dalesman Litany Rob I do too, but I remember singing 'I'll tell me mar' in a pub in Clifden, Ireland and an old Irishman coming up to me and saying It's good t' hear you singing it in your own accent and not trying to put a fake Irish one on.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:10 AM

efresh.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:11 AM

Sorry, "Refresh"

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:35 AM

If you have the Mike Harding album "Rooted" have a listen to The Wath on Dearne Blues.

It makes the point of this thread in a rather excellent way.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: muppett
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:57 AM

Aye it certainly does Ian

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: meself
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:48 AM

For those of us who do NOT have said album, would anyone care to explain?

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,the wanderer
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:03 AM

It's basically a Blues song, using Yorkshire place names and done in A Yorkshire / Lancashire Accent, tha knows cocka

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: meself
Date: 24 May 11 - 12:22 PM

Ah! Thankee.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:22 PM

One of my favorite you tubes is a group of Russian women singing the Butcher Boy and a song in Russian with an almost identical tune. If they had been perfectly able to imitate a London or Dublin accent (it is said to be originally an English song) it would not be half as lovely. There are also tubes of Thai children singing Irish songs, probably because they had Irish teachers who went to Irish bars..so they are singing the Town I loved so well, Molly Malone etc. quite charmingly. If they had sung with a perfect Irish accent it would have lost something, which is themselves singing Irish songs in a Thai accent. mg

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:53 PM

ot that Ewan MacColl's singing needs any defending, bur re. his accent:
You might give a listen to a CD "A Garland of Scots Folksong (CAMSCO 703) which consists of Ewan singing with Btsy Miller, his mother.
She was a fine singer, too.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: glueman
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:59 PM

Check this out at 5:46...
Oh Suzannah

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Peggy
Date: 24 May 11 - 07:16 PM

Such interesting postings re this subject. I venture that it all depends on who the singer is and why they sing as they do. I was just trying to imagine 'Wigan Pier' being sung by Jessie Matthews in her 'own voice' as she eventually produced it.    Somehow for me that does not work. I need the accent, or the song doesn't work.
I also can't imagine a trained tenor singing 'Wur can that blackbird be, wur can that blackbird be??' etc etc etc.

At present I almost exclusively listen to Asian singers and music and watch Asian film etc. Must say I am not sure where the Peking opera would fit in this discussion. It all depends what sounds you like to hear.   Same with Korean Pansoori singing.

And then there is always a good Welsh Male voice Choir.

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 11 - 07:35 AM

Opera singers do their hideous singing out of tune you know - just listen to BBC Radio 3 - even on the HD Stream!!

Subject: RE: What exactly does 'Sing in your own voice' mean?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:02 AM

To 'Sing in your own voice' makes me think of school. In music class we were often individually asked to sing through just the plain and basic song before making any changes to the arrangement or sound.